Talk:Reid Stowe

Rewording the header information

I have prepared a preliminary revision of the header section (intro) to the article, after reviewing our discussions above. You will find below the complete revision (with Wiki code visible upon choosing the "Edit" option). I await any comments.

William Reid Stowe (born January 6, 1952) is an American artist and mariner. " Stowe grew up around sailboats, sailed on the Pacific and Atlantic Oceans in his late teens and early 20's, had built two of his own sailboats with the help of his family and friends by age 26, sailed to the Antarctic with his schooner Anne in 1986, and completed a 194-day journey without touching land in 1999.

Stowe recently completed an ocean-going voyage called 1000 Days at Sea: The Mars Ocean Odyssey, a journey that commenced on April 21, 2007 from Pier 12, Hoboken, New Jersey. This mission had the aim of remaining on the open ocean, without resupply, outside of contact with supporting ports for a period of one thousand days. This voyage involved active management of a sailboat under varying weather conditions, and with continuous wear and tear of equipment on the schooner.

Stowe was the head of the expedition and the principal designer and builder of the Anne, the 70 ft. (21.3 metres (70 ft) ) 60 ton (54,400 kg) gaff-rigged schooner which Stowe sailed on the voyage. Soanya Ahmad, Stowe's girlfriend, a sailing novice with no offshore experience had been the first mate and the other principal participant in the voyage. Ostensibly suffering from nausea, Ahmad left the schooner near Perth, Australia on February 22, 2008, assisted by members of the Royal Perth Yacht Club, which had agreed in advance to carry out the rescue at sea. Subsequent to the rescue, Soanya's own suspicions of being pregnant with her first child were confirmed, and she gave birth to a son named Darshen in July of that year.

On June 17, 2010, Reid Stowe sailed the schooner Anne up the Hudson River and docked in New York. The total voyage duration claimed by Stowe was 1,152 days, a potential record for the longest continuous sea voyage without resupply or stepping on land. Upon landing at Pier 81 in Manhattan, he was met by family and friends, by his girlfriend Soanya Ahmad and their toddler son, and by the press.

--Skol fir (talk) 22:23, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

"outside of contact with supporting ports"? No - the original tenet was "out of sight of land".

I also think it important to add that a substantial aim of the mission was 4 circumnavigations of the globe as per the subject's own press releases, interviews and press coverage. Leaving out the scientific and educational goals here is also deceptive. I will cite all of the above if other editors are willing to accept the subject of the article's own goals and objectives when he departed on his voyage.

"This voyage involved active management of a sailboat under varying weather conditions, and with continuous wear and tear of equipment on the schooner." Cite please?

You pretend to be a sailor and you need a citation for that statement? No citation necessary for a person with some basic understanding of sailing against the elements. --Skol fir (talk) 19:29, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

I don't pretend to be a sailor, I am a sailor. Some sailors would argue that tying off the wheel and not having sails up for up to 6 months at a time and spending months drifting doesn't really fit the description of "active management". I'm concerned about allowing any information into this article without a cite. Regatta dog (talk) 14:51, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

"Expedition"? Please refer to the wiki definition of expedition -- was there exploration or research involved? Cites please?

"Ostensibly suffering from nausea" -- "knowing she was pregnant on day 289" is more accurate, as per the SF Chronicle article (will cite again if requested).

I read that quote from day 289 and nowhere does Soanya say she was pregnant. She talks about mood changes, which could just as well have been caused by something else. The author Dobnik inferred pregnancy in hindsight, and made her own assumption using a woman's intuition that Soanya must have known she was pregnant. That is reading between the lines, not factual at all. --Skol fir (talk) 19:29, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

So you think that the author inferred from her conversation with Soanya she was pregnant and that her "woman's intuition" allowed her to pinpoint the exact date Soanya knew? Have you spoken with the author and confirmed it was simply her "intuition"? I can't find that inference anywhere in the article. I think it is a highly relevant detail to the story of her departure and it is documented by a reliable source. Do you think it is not relevant? Regatta dog (talk) 14:51, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Her interview with Soanya was in May 2009! That was after she already had delivered her baby, so what I am saying is that of course the author then knew in retrospect that Soanya had mood changes because of her pregnancy. Soanya did not admit the pregnancy in public until she had actually delivered her baby, as it was no one else's business, thank you. So if you want to read into her log entries, fine, but that is totally subjective interpretation. Even in her interview with NPR in early Mar., 2008, Soanya still did not admit her pregnancy, although we know now that she had already been to a doctor by that time (from other interviews) and had the pregnancy confirmed soon after she left the schooner. Read this article from your favorite tabloid NYDN: Queens woman gives birth to baby conceived at sea, where it says "She soon confirmed the pregnancy." What I am saying is that she did not reveal her pregnancy in public, so Dobnik clearly made her own interpretation of the log entry on day 289. Soanya did not use the word pregnancy in that entry, so Dobnik inferred it after knowing that was the reason. You can't put that in as "Soanya knowing she was pregnant" because Soanya did not say that. Also, Soanya did not know for sure that she was pregnant until after she had left the schooner, and had a doctor examine her in Australia (Seasick or Pregnant? Woman Gives Birth to Baby Conceived at Sea and discussion immediately below this paragraph).

It is enough to say that both she and Reid were not sure until after she left the boat. Why is that such a problem with you? --Skol fir (talk) 20:01, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm not arguing about when she did or didn't make it public and any reasonable person would agree that she was pregnant. The key here is when she knew she was pregnant.

OK, then, Regatta Dog- here is the real scoop on "when she knew she was pregnant." I relistened to the audio clip from this story at Weekend America from Oct. 11, 2008. Quote: Remember Soanya's seasickness? "I suspected by the time I got off in Australia, but I did not know for sure," remembers Soanya. "When I got off, I then checked and yes, I was pregnant!" That is what I was saying all along...not all the nonsense you and Dobnik were spouting off about Soanya knowing it on Day 289! Happy now?

This discussion is now moot anyway, since Green Cardamom already suggested to remove the information about why Soanya left the schooner altogether from the lede, as it contained too much detail for a lead section intended to briefly summarize the contents of the article. The details of her pregnancy and the birth of Darshen are really a side story, touched on by numerous references in the article, including the radio show I mentioned above, which also stated at the time that Reid and Soanya's son, Darshen, was born in July. It was a tough call, but together they decided that Reid will stay the course and try to break the endurance sailing record. The most recent articles referenced in the Reid Stowe entry now state that her "seasickness" was actually morning sickness, so that should settle the matter. -- Skol fir (talk) 21:41, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

I strongly support a couple's privacy regarding pregnancy and don't fault Soanya at all for not announcing she was pregnant.

It is not enough to say that they weren't sure, when the source clearly states - "By Day 289, on Feb. 6, 2008, she knew pregnancy was causing this...". Your suggestion that Dobnik "inferred" that specific day and date is purely speculation on your part. It is important to the article because Stowe continues to claim that they didn't know she was pregnant.

Of course Dobnik inferred it. That is not speculation on my part, not one bit. Read the entry yourself on Day 289.

Soanya's View

Since I have known Reid, he has said his ability to succeed is equal to his ability to love. Now that we are finally underway, he's had to remind himself of that over and over. When we're frustrated or angry or stressed, we are not in a state of love. It's not easy to be loving all of the time. It takes as much work to remember to be loving as it does to act out frustration or negative feeling. The yogis say love is the highest state a human can be in. It is not one that is attainable without effort despite what many would have you believe. I hope I can remember to be loving more times than not. It's easy to forget in the heat of the moment, but practice must make it easier in time.

You tell me how she got "pregnancy" out of that! I am sorry, but it doesn't wash, unless Dobnik is psychic! --Skol fir (talk) 01:13, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

From reading the article yet again, it is obvious to me she interviewed Soanya for the article. There are direct quotes attributed to Soanya that can't be found anywhere else on the web. Psychic powers are not required to regurgitate facts garnered from an interview. What's wrong with my suggested compromise below? Regatta dog (talk) 22:01, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Instead of "ostensibly suffering from nausea", why not compromise and use the NYT quote - "she had to leave because of morning sickness". Is this agreeable? -

"Soanya Ahmad, Stowe's girlfriend, a sailing novice with no offshore experience had been the first mate and the other principal participant in the voyage. Ahmad left the schooner because of morning sickness near Perth, Australia on February 22, 2008 [1]. She was assisted by members of the Royal Perth Yacht Club, which had agreed in advance to pick her up from the schooner. She gave birth to a son named Darshen in July of that year."

The above removes any conflict regarding when they knew she was pregnant and cuts to the quick - she left due to morning sickness. Regatta dog (talk) 15:21, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

I'll go with that version, adding the correct reference syntax:

Soanya Ahmad, Stowe's girlfriend, a sailing novice with no offshore experience, had been the first mate and the other principal participant in the voyage. Ahmad left the schooner because of morning sickness near Perth, Australia on February 22, 2008. She was assisted by members of the Royal Perth Yacht Club, which had agreed in advance to pick her up from the schooner. She gave birth to a son named Darshen in July of that year.

I could make the correction in the article, if you wish. --Skol fir (talk) 20:10, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

"Subsequent to the rescue, Soanya's own suspicions of being pregnant with her first child were confirmed," -- redundant and speculative. The SF Chronicle article didn't mention anything about speculation and the reporter interviewed Soanya. Also, the word "rescue" is overly dramatic. I would suggest "transfer" or "pick up".

The last paragraph has been discussed time and again. I suggest we leave it as is. Regatta dog (talk) 07:20, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Discussion about the article header

Ostensibly suffering from nausea? Laughable. She knew she was pregnant 2 weeks before she got off the boat, according to the SF Examiner article, where Soanya was interviewed. Reid Stowe changed the purpose of the voyage to "Love" instead of the "Mars Research" which is what he used do garner support from sponsors and donors.

Regatta Dog, I am afraid it is your English comprehension that is laughable. "Pregnancy: Nausea or "morning sickness" is a common symptom of pregnancy. In the first trimester nearly 80% of women have some degree of nausea.[6] Pregnancy therefore should be considered in any women of child bearing age.[5] While usually it is mild and self limiting severe cases known as hyperemesis gravidarum may require treatment.[7]" This is from Nausea. Please look before you leap. Nausea is exactly what she had. What are you arguing about? --Skol fir (talk) 04:39, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

This mission had the aim of scientific research for a Mars voyage, 4 circumnavigations, and .... Mars? 20 years in the making as a Mars voyage, 3 years on the sea, a year and some change out, when no one gives a damn.................Stowe realizes that (and I quote) "hardly anyone is really interested", changes this scientific Mars mission into a "love voyage". I think that transition should be in the article.

What say you Skol Fir? Pretty significant event, changing the purpose of the journey. Regatta dog (talk) 04:15, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

The purpose of the journey has always been to emulate a trip to Mars with respect to isolation and self-sufficiency. The "Love Voyage" concept was tacked on as a parallel theme, mostly in reference to the drawing of the heart in the Atlantic (which was completed in 2009). Reid Stowe has mentioned that theme not as a replacement but as an adjunct. If you think it is significant, put it in (with appropriate references to back it up). Personally, I don't give a hoot what the Voyage is called. It has an official name which is being maintained at the 1000 Day website. You can call it the Woodstock Voyage, if that would make you happier. --Skol fir (talk) 05:08, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

So changing horses mid-stream is not significant? Love Voyage was NOT a parallel theme. Cite please? Sold as a scientific voyage to sponsors and donors for NASA research for a Mars mission becomes the "love voyage"? What does a heart drawing in the Atlantic have to do with NASA? Nice touch, I'll admit, but the science of the "mission" was sold for 20 years and was never realized. Pretty bad ROI for those who bellied up for even $5.00 to the PayPal button on his website. Regatta dog (talk) 07:22, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Did you give monetary support to Reid? You seem stuck on this. My interpretation of the love voyage comment is that he was expressing thanks and appreciation (love) to his supporters and crew, it was a spur of the moment comment, not literal, the mission name was never changed to "Love Voyage". Green Cardamom (talk) 04:54, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Sorry I looked closer and love voyage was more than just a spur comment. RD, I suggest if you have source(s) that are critical of Stowe, bring them forward. Please read WP:OR carefully. We can't just pick facts out of articles and interpret them. If you have a source that is critical of Stowe - that is, a person who has said "I am critical of Stowe because ..." something like that. A book or essay or magazine article that has a main thesis or theme that is critical of Stowe for changing the mission focus. That is what is needed. Green Cardamom (talk) 05:45, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

There was an entire article devoted to Reid's back child support in a reputable source, the NYDN, in which one of Reid's own shore team all but acknowledges the fact. That same source, NYDN, gives it brief mention in two additional articles. Charles Doane a self proclaimed friend of Reid's has covered it as does and article in Boating on the Hudson. With all of these reliable sources, a number of editors here are dead set against any mention of back child support in the article. They also seem unwilling to consider the drug conviction/prison time for the article, which can also be reliably sourced to numerous publications.

I agree with Skol Fir that we should present the information in a neutral way and let readers make their own morality judgments, but how can they make any judgments if they don't have the basic information?

I'll pull together some media comments about criticism over the weekend. Hopefully we can agree on the wording and get it into the article. Regatta dog (talk) 14:12, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

If you can find additional sources, besides just NYDN, it would make it more notable. Since this is a BLP, and the material weighs negatively on the subjects personal life, we need a higher bar than a single source. If multiple sources are reporting it, it makes the information more reliable/notable. Include it in your "List of criticisms of Stowe". Green Cardamom (talk) 17:34, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Skol, the lead section of the article is meant to be a summary of the entire article. One should be able to read the lead section and have a good idea what the rest of the article contains. Right now the lead section is almost entirely about the latest mission and nothing else. The first paragraph could be about Stowe's biography and early life, the second paragraph about his accomplishments up to the mission, the third paragraph about the mission. This would seem like a rough balance, as a suggestion. Green Cardamom (talk) 04:57, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

I would put everything before his latest voyage in a single paragraph, because there is not really that much there. For example: " Reid Stowe grew up around sailboats, sailed on the Pacific and Atlantic Oceans in his late teens and early 20's, had built two of his own sailboats with the help of his family and friends by age 26, sailed to the Antarctic with his schooner Anne in 1986, and completed a 194-day journey without touching land in 1999."

Then we jump to the current text. --Skol fir (talk) 20:38, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

"I would put everything before his latest voyage in a single paragraph, because there is not really that much there"? ..... "Then we jump into the current text?" So we jump straight from your intro para to the Mars mission? Remove everything between your proposed intro, and then jump right in to the "1000 days voyage" sub head? That's not a bio anymore. Skol Fir -- Work with me here. Is that what you're thinking? I'll work with you, as long as it is balanced. BTW - What do you consider the "current text"? Regatta dog (talk) 01:41, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

It's not that difficult. Here is the full intro, as I see it... I am just following Green Cardamom's suggestion to summarize Reid Stowe's biography in a few words. If you want to turn it into a novel, go ahead.

William Reid Stowe (born January 6, 1952) is an American artist and mariner. " Stowe grew up around sailboats, sailed on the Pacific and Atlantic Oceans in his late teens and early 20's, had built two of his own sailboats with the help of his family and friends by age 26, sailed to the Antarctic with his schooner Anne in 1986, and completed a 194-day journey without touching land in 1999.

Stowe recently completed an ocean-going voyage called 1000 Days at Sea: The Mars Ocean Odyssey, a journey that commenced on April 21, 2007 from Pier 12, Hoboken, New Jersey. This mission had the aim of remaining on the open ocean, without resupply, outside of contact with supporting ports for a period of one thousand days. This voyage involved active management of a sailboat under varying weather conditions, and with continuous wear and tear of equipment on the schooner.

Stowe was the head of the expedition and the principal designer and builder of the Anne, the 70 ft. (21.3 metres (70 ft) ) 60 ton (54,400 kg) gaff-rigged schooner which Stowe sailed on the voyage. Soanya Ahmad, Stowe's girlfriend, a sailing novice with no offshore experience had been the first mate and the other principal participant in the voyage. Ostensibly suffering from nausea, Ahmad left the schooner near Perth, Australia on February 22, 2008, assisted by members of the Royal Perth Yacht Club, which had agreed in advance to carry out the rescue at sea. Subsequent to the rescue, Soanya's own suspicions of being pregnant with her first child were confirmed, and she gave birth to a son named Darshen in July of that year.

On June 17, 2010, Reid Stowe sailed the schooner Anne up the Hudson River and docked in New York. The total voyage duration claimed by Stowe was 1,152 days, a potential record for the longest continuous sea voyage without resupply or stepping on land. Upon landing at Pier 81 in Manhattan, he was met by family and friends, by his girlfriend Soanya Ahmad and their toddler son, and by the press.

That's what I meant. --Skol fir (talk) 02:15, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

References used in this subsection

The lead is supposed to summarize what's in the body. The body of this article is about 1/3 early life and voyages, and 2/3 the recent voyage. It would be good to flesh out the rest of his life and better balance the coverage, but if we don't have the sources for it, may be the 1000 day voyage dominates the lead section. Personally I think the third paragraph [in your above proposal] could be dropped entirely from the lead section, it's too much specific detail, and the last paragraph combined with the second paragraph so there is only 1 paragraph for the 1000 day voyage and 2 paragraphs total for the lead. Green Cardamom (talk) 07:23, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

I think what Green Cardamom was asking for was an intro that summarized his whole life, with a final para that delves into the latest trip. You seem to be suggesting an article that gives a very brief overview of his life before his latest accomplishment, and then jumps to 1000 days. Is this a bio or an article about an event? Regatta dog (talk) 02:29, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

I have taken into account the discussions above, in the new version of the introduction. I hope everyone is satisfied with the result. Please let me know if that is not satisfactory.

 Done Corrections made according to the above.-- Skol fir (talk) 02:31, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

You will note that for the record, I included a reference to the original Launch Brochure in the Intro, clearly stating the goals of this mission on April 16, 2007, so that everyone can see for themselves that some of these goals were not met. One example given is that Reid Stowe, for whatever reasons, was not able to complete 4 circumnavigations as planned, which has been mentioned in other articles since his arrival in New York in June. As seen in John 8:32 (New International Version) -- ³²"Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." -Skol fir (talk) 20:22, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Where are you getting the aims of the mission and all that information about Soanya? Also, it isn't accurate to cite 1,152 days and call it "longest continuous sea voyage" when he anchored on day 1,149. Regatta dog (talk) 14:22, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Reference 42 incorrect

Reference 42 is incorrect in that it refers to Soanya's transfer and not to the repair of the bowsprit. Here's what I think the reference ought to be: https://web.archive.org/web/20141101190638/http://1000days.net/home/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=132&Itemid=70 Can someone fix this? I don't know how to do it. John Link (talk) 03:57, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

I just happened to see this note. I will make the correction now. You are perfectly correct, John Link: the reference should have been the Day 22 Log, not employing the "ref name" from another entry. Skol fir (talk) 18:14, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

Thank you, Skol fir. John Link (talk) 15:58, 17 February 2019 (UTC)