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Removed Jhelum from the districts speaking, "standard Punjabi language", as the main language of Jhelum district is a sub-dialect of Potwari. Although standard Punjabi is spoken in some areas, the most common language is Potwari.

Hello By including Jehlum District in Standard Punjabi dialect "Majhi" is due the fact as you your self described "in some areas it is spoken. Jaredfan (talk) 05:03, 6 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi,

Majhi is no way spoken by the majority of Jhelum district. Potwari, dhanni and mirpuri is. Also, Jhelum was never a part of "Majha" region of Punjab. It has always been a part of Potwar. As for the "in some areas it is spoken" comment of yours, well, some regions in Gujrat speak Potwari, so that doesn't mean Gujrat district can be included as a "part of Potwar". And please, do not politicize the issue. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.200.157.154 (talk) 09:35, 8 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Refer to Saraiki dialect Talk page, there is WP consensus on it being a dialect. Saraiki dialect is also referred as Multani dialect. Do not engage in edit war on this article because it is just a summary article. 39.32.99.86 (talk) 16:42, 20 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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The ref appears to have been removed (or replaced with a link to the resource's new address). – Uanfala (talk) 22:35, 21 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Why are Pahari languages present here?

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It is pretty clear that Pahari languages: Dogri (a scheduled language according to Indian Constitution), Kangri, Kahluri & Bhateali are part of Western Pahari languages under Indo-Aryan Family. Punjabi is a language under Northwestern Zone of Indo Aryan Family. Dear, how do you have languages as dialects of a language across branches? Then one may simply say that Punjabi is a dialect of Hindi (which it is not). It is wrong & I strongly oppose it. I would like others to share their opinions over it. If there is no discussion of the topic, I will suggest removal of those languages from here. Nik9hil (talk) 07:16, 28 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Well, some mention will need to be made of Dogri because of its close relationship with Punjabi and the fact that it is sometimes counted as a Punjabic variety. I agree with you that there's no point in having a separate section about it. But then, I don't think there's much point in any of the other sections either – they have all been copied from the individual articles about each dialect, typically from earlier and inferior versions. I think we should get rid of it all and replace it with a brief overview, which would then link to each of the individual articles. – Uanfala (talk) 12:57, 28 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the reply. My concern here is with respect to only those 4 languages. If one sees the table down the page which shows a table of Punjabi varieties, it doesn't mentions these 4 languages. It only mentions Doabi, Majhi, Malwai, Puadhi, Dhani, Inku, Jhangvi, Lubanki, Pahari-Pothwari, Shahpuri, Awankari, Chhachi, Ghebi, Kohati, Riasti, & Thali. Yes, not only Dogri but other 3 languages too share some similarities with Punjabi. Given that the table also doesn't mentions these languages, it should be right to remove them from this page too. As for the other ones, I don't know much about them. If some user have something to be said with respect to them too, they also should say. Nik9hil (talk) 13:33, 29 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Dialects map

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File:Dialects_Of_Punjabi.jpg.

I would like to bring up for discussion the map on the right. I sort of like the map: it's a pretty colour palette, and it has all those nice little touches, like the green spot in the middle of the Pothohari areas representing the Standard Punjabi speakers in the city of Islamabad, or the green streaks throughout the Pakistani province, likely depicting the canal colonies with their speakers of Eastern Punjabi varieties.

On the other hand, the map contains a number of inaccuracies. For example, the entire Saraiki area in the south is partitioned between te Multani, Riasti, Derewal and "Thlochi", but these are only regional names, not actual dialects (see the Wagha and Shackle cited in Saraiki language#Dialects), whose boundaries look a lot different. Look at Kohati as well: it's shown to occupy the entire Kohat District, but that is incorrect: the predominant language there is Pashto, and as detailed in its article, Kohati is confined to the city and to a line of villages running in an east-west direction. See also "Pahari" in the north: it's shown as a narrow band in light blue that runs along the entire northern boundary of the Punjabi areas. That's flagrantly incorrect: it appears to stem from the understanding that "Pahari" is everything that's spoken in the mountains, but the actual Punjabi variety of Pahari (as detailed with extensive sourcing at Pahari-Pothwari#Pahari) is only spoken in AJK and the mountains in the west of the Kashmir Valley.

In the light of the above, the practice so far has been to not use the map in the articles on Kohati, Pahari and the other dialects that it gets wrong. (Sometimes people start insisting on inserting the map everywhere, so worth keeping an eye on these just in case). However, the big question is if we should use this map anywhere at all. It has so far been used in this article, and I guess it seems useful as a broad overview. But its numerous inaccuracies, coupled with the fact that it doesn't cite any sources, should frankly make it inadmissible anywhere on Wikipedia. – Uanfala (talk) 12:35, 19 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Uanfala For what it is worth, "Thlochi" is likely a name used by Awankari Hindko speakers to describe Thali, as the Awankari name for Dhanni/Chakwali is Dhanochi (Hardev Barhi explains the origin of the -ch- affix and its peculiarity to Awankari in his book Lahndi Phonology).
Otherwise though, yes, I agree this map requires improvement, and further I would suggest that the colours need changing as well to use a colour-blind friendly pallette. I will try to do the research necessary to create an updated map, although there are some odds and ends I need to work out before doing this. عُثمان (talk) 14:03, 12 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yagnik

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Prapti 43.242.118.155 (talk) 15:20, 18 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Dialects of Punjabi or Punjabic Dialects?

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I was wondering whether Punjabic Dialects and Dialects of Punjabi should be segregated under separate headings and whether a clear distinction should be made between them? At the moment, I feel dialects like Saraiki, Pothowari are being equated to Malwai or Doabi? Even though the former are recognised languages, and the latter are considered proper dialects of Punjabi. Pinging @Uanfala and Malikhpur:, as I know they've made significant contributions to the page (apologies for the ping). نعم البدل (talk) 03:28, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The article already distinguishes between Lahnda which covers Saraiki, Hindko and Pothwari from Eastern Punjabi which covers Malwai etc. There is no need to have separate headings. This articles recognises that Pothwari etc are separate languages in the lede when it states Punjabi is a series of dialects and languages forming part of Greater Punjabi. Malikhpur (talk) 08:29, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Pothwari

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@EstablishmentOfKnowledge: Your citation does not support your claim. Pothwari speakers could have well chosen Urdu, or Hindko, or Saraiki, or Other, just as they could have selected 'Punjabi' - you have no way knowing for what the majority selected. The survey which was conducted in Azad Kashmir should be and indication that Pothwari speakers don't associate their language with Punjabi, when given the option. We don't even know how many Pothwari speakers there are exactly in Ralwalpindi. You'll need a better citation. نعم البدل (talk) 23:32, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

And, had you read the edit summary, I did invite you to the talk page. نعم البدل (talk) 23:35, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If you think sourced information should be removed, it would be best to explain why in the Talk Page first before removing it. EstablishmentOfKnowledge (talk) 23:42, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The census data is much more reliable than a small scale survey in Azad Kashmir which barely surveyed 1000 people.
https://www.pbs.gov.pk/sites/default/files/population/2017/results/03911.pdf
https://www.pbs.gov.pk/sites/default/files/population/2017/results/04011.pdf
https://www.pbs.gov.pk/sites/default/files/population/2017/results/04111.pdf
https://www.pbs.gov.pk/sites/default/files/population/2017/results/04211.pdf
These are the previous census results for the Pothohar which is where Pothwari is a majority language. The people selecting "other" in these Pothwari speaking districts did not even amount to 1% of their respective district population. The data clearly supports the facts that Pothwari speakers overwhelmingly selected their mother tongue as Punjabi in previous enumerations EstablishmentOfKnowledge (talk) 23:40, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No it doesn't. All you're doing is presenting the results from the Census and your claims are WP:OR, you're making claims based on primary data, not making statements based on secondary research. The census (handled by the government) never even recognised Pothwari as a language up until recently, I'm confused as to how you're even deriving these conclusions. Not even mentioning the fact that areas like Jhelum, though influenced by Pothwari, do actually majorly speak Punjabi, not [the] Pothwari dialect. نعم البدل (talk) 23:50, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is not WP:OR when the data clearly supports the claim. Pothwari speakers did indeed overwhelmingly select Punjabi instead of "other".
In the results for Rawalpindi District, only 217,092 individuals selected "other". This is a mere 4% of the population of Rawalpindi District, when Pothwari speakers make up several million individuals according to ethnologue and linguists.
Even in Tehsils where only Pothwari is spoken as a major language, like Gujar Khan, only 3,427 from a population of 678,062 selected "other". It's very clear based on the census data of the Pothohar that most Pothwari speakers are selecting their mother tongue as Punjabi.
Pothwari is definitely spoken in Jhelum, that just happens to be where Pothwari transitions into standard Punjabi.
Pothwari wasn't recognised as a language until recently, but that doesn't mean that Pothwari speakers haven't been selecting Punjabi as their mother tongue. It would be a blatant misrepresentation of data to suggest that Pothwari speakers are selecting "other"
The census data cannot be replaced with a much smaller survey from Azad Kashmir (also handled by the government) EstablishmentOfKnowledge (talk) 00:14, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
1. How do you which areas speak Pothwari, as opposed to Punjabi? 2. What data? Where does it say directly that 'Pothwari' speakers opted for the 'Punjabi' language, and too in relation to the census. Again, you've not given any references for that. That 'small' survey that you object to, is one of the few publicly available census/surveys out there, unless you can provide any other citations.
Like I say, we don't even know what the "Pothwari-major" districts are in Mainland Pakistan. You are just assuming that they all picked Punjabi, when they could have just as well picked Urdu, Saraiki, Hindko, or 'Other'. You have nothing to say otherwise, or are you just assuming that every place in the Pothohar Plateau speaks Pothowari? نعم البدل (talk) 00:44, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
And believe me, Jhelum speaks Punjabi, not Pothwari. نعم البدل (talk) 00:52, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Jhelum speaks both Pothwari and Punjabi. Like I said, that's where the border with Pothwari and Punjabi begins. EstablishmentOfKnowledge (talk) 00:54, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Jhelum isn't 'split' between Punjabi and Pothwari, they speak Punjabi which is influenced by Pothwari. I agree the past Jhelum the influence grows towards/dies thither. I always assumed the dialect that was spoken in ISB/RAW was Hindko, rather than Pothwari anyways? نعم البدل (talk) 01:05, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Because Pothwari and Punjabi are largely similar, there isn't a distinct border between them. There's more of a gradual change from Pothwari to Standard Punjabi, and the east part of the district is known to speak Pothwari proper.
Hindko isn't really native to Isb/Rwp, Pothwari has always been the native language in these parts. Hindko is mainly spoken to the North West of the Punjab district like in Attock and parts of KPK EstablishmentOfKnowledge (talk) 01:10, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
A small survey from Azad Kashmir which barely includes 1000 people cannot be used to speak for Pothwari speakers as a whole, not when they've been estimated to be up to 2.5 million people.. The census actually includes all Pothwari speakers in the Punjab
Pothwari has historically been regarded as a part of Punjabi by speakers and linguists, and some Pothwari speakers even call their language "Punjabi". One such source for this is found of the Pahari-Pothwari page: We know that Pothwari is a majority language in Northern Punjab, ethnologue and the literature regarding Pothwari is very clear on that.
Why would they pick Urdu when up until recently Pothwari was officially a dialect of Punjabi. In the Pothohar and Azad Kashmir many Pothwari speakers do see their language as Punjabi, and some even call it as such. Here's one of the sources for this which is available on the Pahari-Pothwari page: https://www.sil.org/resources/publications/entry/9130 ". ...It is difficult to know whether Punjabi indicates Punjabi spoken farther south in the plains or the language spoken in Mirpur, since some speakers call their mother tongue Punjabi".
Unless Pothwari speakers are a very small part of the Pothohar, they were not claiming their mother tongue under "other" EstablishmentOfKnowledge (talk) 01:03, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The matter goes back to the references, I'm not saying use the survey as the Bible, but use it as an indication. I never removed the SIL reference, because I never objected to it since yes some Pothwari speakers to deem their vernacular to be 'Punjabi', but that same reference can't be used to state to imply that all or most of Pothwari speakers living in Rawalpindi (the populace which is unknown anyways) would have apparently picked Punjabi, that is big stretch from the statement that was made in the SIL citation, since it never even mentions Rawalpindi, and is meant to be taken as a general note, or "generally-speaking". نعم البدل (talk) 01:09, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Not to mention you expressed it as:
> Pothwari speakers overwhelmingly selected 'Punjabi" instead of "other" in all previous census enumeration.
Which implies that the fact is certain, when, well clearly, it isn't. نعم البدل (talk) 01:14, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's the only plausible conclusion that can be reached. If Pothwari speakers were selecting "other" then the "other" category should be much larger seeing as Pothwari is a majority language in Northern Punjab.
Even going back to 1981 census, 85.1% of households had Punjabi as mother tongue. It's a simple conclusion that Pothwari speakers were selecting their language as Punjabi, especially when they see their language as such. EstablishmentOfKnowledge (talk) 01:29, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm a native Pothwari speaker from Rawalpindi, but seeing as there aren't any secondary sources regarding this specific issue, there isn't much I can do.
I propose we remove the section on Azad Kashmir and the part about Pothwari speakers selecting their language as Punjabi if you still disagree. We should mention the Pothwari speakers as a whole.
We can replace it with something neutral such as: Pothwari speakers has been represented by Punjabi in previous census enumerations, and a number of Pothwari speakers refer to their mother tongue as Punjabi.
What do you think? EstablishmentOfKnowledge (talk) 01:37, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If there aren't any secondary sources then unfortunately, you might have to leave it out – the 2023 Online Census has been concluded anyways, so we might not have to wait that long for more secondary sources to appear for Pothwari. However, I don't see why the AJK survey has to go?
I think this bit suffices:
  • Some Pothwari speakers in Azad Kashmir and the Pothohar refer to their mother tongue as Punjabi, so those who selected Punjabi may be referring to Pothwari.
And the SIL reference IMO suffices alongside.
But I'm quite opposed to the following statement:
  • Pothwari speakers overwhelmingly selected 'Punjabi" instead of "other" in all previous census enumeration.
Since we can't really prove that – it's merely assumptions at this stage. نعم البدل (talk) 14:56, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Definitely not assumptions, saying such a thing is just completely ignoring census data results for the Pothohar which actually sampled millions of people, not just 1000 in Azad Kashmir EstablishmentOfKnowledge (talk) 14:58, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't dispute that some Pothwari speakers may have picked Punjabi as opposed to "Others". I dispute that fact that an overwhelming number of Pothwari speakers would have picked Punjabi.
Again, as you'll know we've not been spoiled with citations regarding the Pothwari language, and there's really nothing wrong with the survey, and also where does it specifically say 1000 people participated in the survey? نعم البدل (talk) 15:06, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm willing to change the statement to something along the lines of "Pothwari has been represented as a dialect of Punjabi until the 2017 census".
And it's not "some" Pothwari speakers, it is the vast majority. That's why the "other" section only includes a fraction of the actual Pothohar. There is quite simply no other plausible conclusion that can be drawn from the census EstablishmentOfKnowledge (talk) 15:10, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Need I remind you, you have no citations for that, and without that it's WP:OR. نعم البدل (talk) 15:20, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's not WP:OR when we know where Pothwari is spoken, and those tehsils are a have a clear Punjabi % majority as of the previous census EstablishmentOfKnowledge (talk) 15:22, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see any relevant citations in your reply, to support your claim. نعم البدل (talk) 15:33, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We do know where Pothwari is spoken, there is countless literature on this. You can find some of it on the Pahari-Pothwari page.
The areas speaking Pothwari are mostly Punjabi majority as per every census carried out until 2017. You not agreeing with the data does not mean it's incorrect EstablishmentOfKnowledge (talk) 15:41, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
On the page the following locations in Mainland Pakistan are mentioned:
1. Jhelum
2. Gujar Khan
3. Islamabad
4. Murree
5. Abbotabad
Come on, you know well, just as I, that none of those places have a significant number of Pothwari speakers. They are all either Punjabi or Hindko places. نعم البدل (talk) 15:47, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You're just showing how little you understand about Pothwari.
Abbotabad isn't even the Punjab let alone Pothohar. Pothwari is not spoken there
In Gujar Khan and Murree only dialects of Pothwari and Pahari are spoken. Both are among the majority of other Pothwari speaking tehsils which are Punjabi majority in the census
Jhelum has Pothwari spoken too, there are countless sources on this. Jhelum is where Pothwari ends and Standard Punjabi begins EstablishmentOfKnowledge (talk) 15:53, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes and thank you for proving how absurd that Pahari-Pothwari page is, because THAT is the page that listed those locations not me. Abottabad, is clearly a Hindko speaking area.
Jhelum does not speak Pothwari, they speak Punjabi. As I said, it's Punjabi is influenced by Pothwari, but that doesn't mean they speak Pothwari, or that they have a significant number of Pothwari speakers. نعم البدل (talk) 15:57, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Jhelum does speak Pothwari, especially in the Easternmost tehsils only Pothwari is spoken. Literature on Pothwari is clear on this.
And the Pahari-Pothwari page is correct in saying Pothwari is spoken in Jhelum, Murree, Islamabad and Gujar Khan. You're the one who's claiming it isn't when we know Pothwari has a strong presence in these regions
It is spoken in Abbotabad too, just not as a majority language. Abbotabad is a Hindko area which isn't in the Pothohar EstablishmentOfKnowledge (talk) 16:01, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The Pothwari spoken in Gujar Khan has been regarded as the prestige dialect of Pothwari in several studies, and here you're claiming that Pothwari isn't spoken there EstablishmentOfKnowledge (talk) 15:56, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Are you forgetting what the whole debate is about by any chance? نعم البدل (talk) 15:57, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The claim that the Pothwari speaking areas of mainland Pakistan are Punjabi majority is indeed true, the census makes that clear.
I get that you may disagree with the results but that isn't sufficient grounds to remove the claim from the article. EstablishmentOfKnowledge (talk) 16:02, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
See below reply, thanks. نعم البدل (talk) 16:04, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
> Why would they pick Urdu
Because not everyone is a linguist, or takes an interest in languages, and for a dialect like Pothwari, it's not unfathomable for Pothwari speakers to associate their dialect with Urdu or Saraiki or Hindko etc.
> Pothwari was officially a dialect of Punjabi
Officially? When has any Pakistani government even recognised Pothwari previously? نعم البدل (talk) 01:17, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It was taken for granted that it was a part of Punjabi. Even today Pothwari speakers from the Pothohar and Azad Kashmir are divided as to whether or not it's part of Punjabi. It's mostly a political issue, that's another reason why a survey from Azad Kashmir shouldn't be used to represent Pothwari speakers as a majority EstablishmentOfKnowledge (talk) 01:25, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Well, considering the Government of AJK doesn't release census data for languages, it's difficult to get any sort of language data for Pothwari speakers. You still need to provide a citation to stitch the census with your claim. نعم البدل (talk) 15:08, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The census data for the the districts of the Pothohar should be more than sufficient. It clearly shows that Pothwari speakers are selecting "Punjabi" in the districts and tehsils which are known to be Pothwari majority EstablishmentOfKnowledge (talk) 15:11, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
What "Pothohar districts"? The Pothohar region includes places where Hindko, Punjabi and even Saraiki are spoken as a majority. Pothwari speakers were never even that significant in this region. نعم البدل (talk) 15:19, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We know several tehsils like Gujar Khan only have Pothwari spoken, and these are clearly Punjabi majority as of the previous census EstablishmentOfKnowledge (talk) 15:21, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As per what exactly? The Pothohar region covers as West as Mianwali – which is majorly Saraiki, just North of Islamabad, which is all Hindko, and South, which is all Punjabi.
Also, if you looked at the neighbouring districts, you're statement that Pothwari speakers all pick 'Punjabi' couldn't be more untrue.
Kallar Sayaddan = 62% Others, Sohowa = 46% Others, which all border AJK.
South Asia languages نعم البدل (talk) 15:33, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Kallar Sayaddan are clear outliers when compared to the vast majority of Pothwari speaking tehsils, which are Punjabi majority
And the statement was that they "overwhelmingly selected punjabi instead of other". This is still true even when taking into account anomalous data EstablishmentOfKnowledge (talk) 15:39, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
What you call an "anomaly", are 240,000 people picking 'Others' over 'Punjabi (150,000) in those 2 Tehsils alone. That should be enough to rethink the use of the word "Overwhelming" in this context.
And this is the same census, by the way, you were referring to earlier. نعم البدل (talk) 15:45, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Take a look at the districts of the Pothohar as a whole
All of these districts are are Punjabi majority. In Rawalpindi District alone, Tehsils Gujar Khan, Kahuta, Kotli Sattian, Muree, Rawalpindi, Taxila, all are Punjabi Majority. Sohawa and Kallar Sayaddan are clear anomalies when you look at even the district as a whole EstablishmentOfKnowledge (talk) 15:49, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Look, at this point you're just picking and choosing information, from the same source. You're trying to insinuate things from a Primary source - the 2017 Census which doesn't even mention Pothwari, and you don't have any secondary sources to back up you're claims. I'm not going to go any further, please either provide reliable citations or I'm putting this discussion up on the noticeboard. Thanks. نعم البدل (talk) 16:04, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You can put it up on the noticeboard.
It is absurd to disregard census data just because it doesn't agree with your views. You've shown in our discussion that you don't know enough about the subject, you aren't even familiar with the regions in which Pothwari is spoken. EstablishmentOfKnowledge (talk) 16:07, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As you wish then.
I'm not the one disagreeing with the Census results by calling some set of results an "anomaly" and the other bit 'facts' through assumptions.
And as a person who's originally from these areas, I think I do have some knowledge of the dialect that is spoken in these regions. نعم البدل (talk) 16:10, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
An anomaly is data which doesn't fit with the data as a whole, so yes it was an anomaly and the claim is still correct
You may be from these areas just as I am, but you claimed that Pothwari isn't spoken in regions where it's a majority language. That doesn't inspire confidence in me I'm afraid EstablishmentOfKnowledge (talk) 16:13, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I owe an apology, I believe Rawalpindi is also a Pothwari speaking region, I'll add references to the claim, but I will remove 'overwhelming' for another appropriate synonym. I've also striked down the discussion at the noticeboard. نعم البدل (talk) 16:38, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That's okay my friend. Rawalpindi is in the heart of the Pothohar, and another local name for Pothwari in the region is Pindiwal Punjabi. Removing the word "overwhelming" would be sufficient though.
It will be interesting to see the results of the latest census. I'm still not entirely sure whether Pothwari has been included yet EstablishmentOfKnowledge (talk) 16:42, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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