Talk:Male prostitution

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 11 January 2022 and 29 April 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Ksantos803 (article contribs).

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 31 August 2021 and 16 December 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Totallytubularthesaurus. Peer reviewers: Rahjah10.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 03:10, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Introduction

The second sentence of the introduction is nonsensical. Prostitution is consensual sex and whom one chooses to have consensual sex with is part of that individual's orientation. JCDenton2052 (talk) 10:37, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Do you honestly feel that there is no one in the entire working world that chooses a profession without liking the work, or only does the work within the profession that they enjoy? For that matter, does a male doctor choosing to be a gynecologist mean he is straight and choosing to be a urologist mean he is gay, and does that also mean every actor in gay love scenes is gay?76.204.79.242 (talk) 17:46, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Please see sexual orientation - an individual's sexual orientation is different from his or her sexual behavior, consensual or otherwise. - NYArtsnWords (talk) 16:04, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Encarta defines homosexual in part as relating to sexual attraction or activity among members of the same sex [1]. Merriam-Webster defines it in part as of, relating to, or involving sexual intercourse between persons of the same sex [2]. Several other dictionaries define homosexual in part as, someone who practices homosexuality. Part of an individual's sexual orientation is the gender of the people he or she has or doesn't have consensual sex with. JCDenton2052 (talk) 11:19, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

False analogy. A male-male prostitute engages in consensual sex with other men, therefore he is homosexual or bisexual. A gynecologist or urologist does not engage in sex with his or her patients. JCDenton2052 (talk) 11:19, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

JCDenton- Once again, please see the sexual orientation article. We are not talking about the loose way that some terms are used in society, but about a psychological/sociological concept. To draw an analogy, the word "anarchy" may mean, in its dictionary definition, "chaos, confusion, etc." However, using that common usage to define "anarchism" (the political philosophy) would be short sided. Sexual orientation, sexual identity and sexual behavior are complex phenomena, and it would be wise to avoid using Encarta or Merriam-Webster's as the last word.

I also notice that you have also just made 9 edits to the page, adding "dubious", "clarifyme" and "citation needed" tags, a "one source" and an "unbalanced" tag, removing the word "gay" in a sentence, changing the heading "Male prostitution in other cultures and periods" to read "Male-male" and refocusing the section on "same-sex". (Please use the edit summary line when you edit.) I have reverted the last edits in this list for the following reasons:

The section "Male prostitution in other cultures and periods" is not specifically about male-male/same-sex. Indeed, neither is this article.

The Preston quote that is referenced is, indeed, about "older gay men". To remove "gay" would be inappropriate.

The section overwhelmingly focuses on male-male prostitution. I removed gay from the quote because it is implicit that if a man seeks the services of a male prostitute he is gay or bi. JCDenton2052 (talk) 16:18, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

I understand that you have a different perspective on these issues, but perhaps you might seek to discuss them on, say, the sexual orientation page or Wikipedia:WikiProject LGBT studies. Thanks - NYArtsnWords (talk) 15:36, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

I have no problem if people want to move this discussion to the sexual orientation talk page as since we are currently partly relying on the definition in that page which I feel is resonably accurate but if there is a dispute then it should be resolved rather then ignored while changing other pages based on definitions from elsewhere. But I don't think moving it to the wikiproject is a good idea. That would mean it would primarily be noticed by people of that project but it's an issue of wider concern. If there is need for outside comment it would be better to continue the discussion in an article talk page while making RFCs in that project and other places, e.g. village pump Nil Einne (talk) 09:23, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree with most others here. Just because a prostitute has sex with people of a certain sex doesn't make him either gay/bisexual/heterosexual. This is the same for example, for porn stars. I will be removing the dubious tag in the lead if there is no further objection. Note I specifically include heterosexual here because it cuts both ways. A gay man could still be gay not bisexual or heterosexual despite having sex with exclusively female clientale. A heterosexual man is not gay or bisexual simply because he has sex with male clientale. The same with women of course (there are definitely lesbian prostitutes who have sex with men.) N.B. JC you're right that part of an individuals sexual orientation is who they choose to have sex with. But it's not the only part which is the key thing your missing. An individual who as part of their work (or for that matter, for other reasons e.g. career advancement), has sex with someone but does not feel any attraction to or erotic desire for individuals of that sex is not by most definitions homosexual/bisexual/heterosexual because of their work. Nil Einne (talk) 09:02, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree, male prostitutes can claim that they are "straight" or "hetero" but they're not because they are at least sexually attracted to men therefore they are at least bisexual or gay but closeted and in denial. I have never met any actual heterosexual or straight man who has ever done sex for pay or even porn with other men even when he was homeless or needing money.

--- Talk about over-thinking a simple subject, of COURSE you're homosexual if you have sex with someone of the same gender and you're not being forced into it... Honestly, you can provide academics that'll support your cause here, no doubt, but it just doesn't make sense... damnit, ... ... --- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.141.196.252 (talk) 22:17, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Men who have sex with men because they want to are the definition of homosexuality. Homophobic gay men who say they are not gay or bisexual even though they have sex with men because they are in prison, because they get paid to, or because it is anonymous in a men's room are homosexual nonetheless. If a man eats beef and pork he cannot call himself a vegetarian; if a man always votes Democrat and never votes Republican, he cannot call himself a Republican. You can't just make up what you are. You are what you are. Be proud of it, and admit it. There is nothing wrong with being gay or bisexual. It is ridiculous for a man who has consensual sex with men to call himself straight. Daviddaniel37 (talk) 23:02, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

No, your opinion is understandable but not all men who have sex with men are or even identify as gay and we cannot make them so by declaring they must be. People do things for all sorts of reasons and there exists plenty of evidence that people's sexual identity can change with time. -- Banjeboi 11:47, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Move of material from main page - Pirate Mythology

I have moved the following material (added 07:57, 15 August 2008 by User:203.23.223.66) on pirate mythology from the main page to here. This material doesn't fit with the rest of the article and is lacking key information on the book mentioned (novel? author?).

Historical context of a Rent Boy in Pirate Mythology

In Watt's book "Swoosh" (1908), while planning a raid, a single member of a band of pirates uses emotive language, revealing himself to be of higher intelligence than the Cap'n. The angry Cap'n questions his manliness with a monologue with insults and illogic, known as The Cap'n's Rent Boy:

"Do we have a sashaying pirate on board, a fanciful folly of a fiend? Do ye keelhaul scurvy dogs or do ye serenade them from the crow’s nest? Do ye shake ye cutlass and howl at the moon or do ye shake ye head and faint oh so sweetly at the sight of unkempt hairy men?" [2]

If male prostitution is a part of the pirate tradition, then editors could add that in the historical section. If this is a prostitute character in a novel, he could be added to the "prostitution in the arts" subpage. Thanks - NYArtsnWords (talk) 16:01, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Issues

A couple of bold claims (e.g. a male prostitute may be of any sexual orientation regardless of his client's gender and Same-sex male prostitution has been found in all advanced cultures) rely on only one source, Encyclopedia of Homosexuality.

Additionally, the article seems to heavily focus on male-male prostitution. That wouldn't be an issue if someone could come up with a source stating that it is significantly more common than male-female prostitution. JCDenton2052 (talk) 11:08, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Propose move to Male prostitution

Resolved

 – Moved. -- Banjeboi 00:15, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

To me Male prostitution is a clearer title. "Prostitution of males" indicates the article is about those who prostitute out men aka a pimp for male hustlers. That doesn't seem to be what this article is about and although the data is unlikely to be complete I'd say there are a significant amount of self-employed male prostitutes. Any thoughts? Banjeboi 10:42, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

• Support: I agree. The original title (at least the one this article has had for at least a couple of years) is clearer and has received only this one unrequested move (or set of moves). Any other term seems too exclusive in some way. HalJor (talk) 14:45, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
• Support. As I argued above. Exploding Boy (talk) 15:36, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
• Support move as nom. Banjeboi 22:34, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
• Support per all above. Male prostitution is the more acepted and used term and is more generic than those mentioned above. — Becksguy (talk) 02:23, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Elusive Journal Article

I'm having trouble locating the journal article in citation #16, Langston, et. al (2002), "The Lion, the Witch, and the Whorehouse: Male Prostitution and the Works of C.S. Lewis", Journal of the American Academy of Religion. It certainly doesn't seem to have been published in the Journal of the American Academy of Religion, 2002 or not. I'm not sure whether to remove it or just ask that someone locate the real article and correct the citation. Kith (talk) 20:40, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

That entire section was added at 22:28, 20 September 2008 by User:AlcockMarine (talk) (contributions):

---

Academic and feminist studies

The topic of male prostitution has not been overlooked in academic studies by feminist theorists. In a study by feminist theorists Justin Gaffney and Kate Beverley, the insights gained from research on male sex workers in central London allows comparison between the experiences of the 'hidden' population of male prostitutes and the traditionally subordinate position of women in a patriarchal society. Gaffney and Beverley argue that like women, for male sex workers, hegemonic and patriarchal constructs ensure that they also occupy a subordinated position within society.

In contrast, a team of researchers at New College of Florida, writing from a poststructural critical theory perspective, concluded that unlike women, for male sex workers, hegemonic misogynistic social constructs ensure that they are seen by "johns" as less likely to take on submissive roles. The study conducted a large number of interviews with "johns" and underground male sex workers, finding their attitudes on gender relations 'remarkably misogynistic.' The study compared their dominant attitude on gender relations to that of the fiction and Christian apologetics of C.S. Lewis. The researchers concluded that both the interviews and the works of C.S. Lewis expressed a remarkably similar misogyny to the point of male homoerotism, and fetishization of patriarchal domination, especially over subjects seen by other members of society as less likely to take on submissive roles.

---

I have moved the entire section here for the time being until it is determined whether it is clever vandalism or actually exists. If you find references for either article, please put it back in. - NYArtsnWords (talk) 01:18, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Here's one of them[3]. -- Banjeboi 01:42, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

I was mistaken in the second reference- the title is a book chapter not a journal article. I will reinsert the section with the correct reference. AlcockMarine (talk) 23:22, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

There is no "chapter title" in the book involving C.S Lewis. I looked on Google books at the addition reference. The book is very theoretical and talks about ethics. I don't see how C.S Lewis is relevant to Male prostitution as a whole. People have argued about his misogyny before but that is 2 steps removed. I am deleting his reference. It also confuses who both in the next section refers to. It makes just as much sense to johns and sex workers. I don't think the material is terribly bad in the section. It needs a better source. (74.237.200.225 (talk) 06:04, 14 June 2011 (UTC))

References

Do hustlers ever serve female clients?

I like to know if they ever do, or design to serve female clients, in comparison to male clients. Thanks. - Jana —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.188.89.126 (talk) 00:38, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Absolutely. There are many male sex workers who ONLY cater to female clients. However, male clients greatly outnumber female clients (in all aspects of the sex industry), so male2female sex work can be significantly less lucrative than female2male or male2male sex work. Of course, a 'high end' market does exist for male sex workers, just as it does for female sex workers - but it can be difficult for the 'average' male sex worker to earn a living providing solely male2female services. A lot of straight male sex workers end up servicing couples and/or going 'gay for pay' to maximise their income. Ashkara sands (talk) 04:37, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

In New Zealand at least, this is not unknown. Occupational feminism, waged female upward employment mobility, reproductive and sexual freedom have resulted in a small number of female users of male sex worker services, as in other western societies. However, given that women still experience some income discrimination, many male sex workers serve either male, or male and female clients. Female-only male sex workers do exist, but tend to earn less than the latter. Calibanu (talk)User Calibanu

This is the type of discussion that should really be taken to user talk or the reference desk. Exploding Boy (talk)

I'm sorry. I'm a Wikipedia noob. I did think about sending a personal message, but didn't know how to contact someone about an unsigned comment. :) Ashkara sands (talk) 08:09, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

I am new to this and may not be commenting in the right place or right way. I think that there should be separate wikipedia articles for male2male prostitution and male2female prostitution. The term gigolo implies the latter but a search leads to this article, which is mostly about the former. The latter is vastly less prevalent and seems to rarely be about anonymous sex without other services, presumably because women can often get anonymous for free. In any event, the subject seems not to covered properly in wikipedia and deserves a separate article perhaps with the title gigolo. Dkremler (talk) 19:12, 5 March 2011 (UTC)dkremler

Male Escort vs Male Prostitute

As I said earlier in my comments: "There is a definite distinction between an escort and a prostitute. In the majority of localities, the first is illegal and the second is not."

The redirect from "Male Escort" to this article does not take into account that distinction and implies that all male escorts are to be considered prostitutes.

I'm in the process of creating an article more appropriate for "Male Escort" differentiating the two, and broadening the focus to include both Male-Male and Male-Female escorting.

Perhaps I've put the cart before the horse. Would you prefer that I create the new article before revising the old?

BlueFlameSeattle (talk) 21:04, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Ok Sathish babu p (talk) 17:39, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

The article you're proposing, at least for "escort" purposes, sounds like Gigolo. Perhaps "male escort" should link over there, where there is a "see also" back to this one. HalJor (talk) 22:22, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Out-of-date reference?

In the "Male brothels" section, it is stated that the last prosecution in the UK for running a "disorderly house" was in 1990. However, the reference cited (this Independent article) is from 1994, so tells us nothing about what may or may not have happened in the 16 years since. A much more recent reference is really needed. Loganberry (Talk) 16:10, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

History needs expansion and globalising

The history section is very lacking, since it jumps from Greece and Rome to US-centric references to prostitution in early modern America. There is good evidence of male prostitution in Europe from the mediaeval period and a flourishing gay subculture in the 18th century, as well as evidence of prostitution throughout Asia, China and Japan in particular. Gymnophoria (talk) 13:12, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Adult Bookstores?

I've been in a fair amount of Adult Bookstores in my life to buy porn, not to have sex and I have never seen male prostitutes in any of them. If people want to have sex in an Adult bookstore they'll have it and they are not going to pay for it. This section should be deleted.

I agree you are NOT going to find male prostitutes or hustlers in adult bookstores. You will find bisexual and gay men having sex with each other and gay, bi, and hetero men and sometimes women buying porn and sex toys. The section should be deleted.108.16.0.94 (talk) 07:40, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

MSM isn't gay?

Can someone explain how man can have sex voluntarily with another man and "not consider himself gay"? And is this the same as denying that it is a "homosexual act" to have sex with the same gender?

Note: I'm not arguing, I'm trying to understand English usage here. --Uncle Ed (talk) 01:15, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Does Men who have sex with men help? HalJor (talk) 02:52, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, I've begun reading that. --Uncle Ed (talk) 19:50, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

They're bisexual men; but some male prostitutes are gay men.108.16.0.94 (talk) 07:41, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Help and Support Section

I think the help and support section needs to be re-examined and editred from a NPV perspective. Also, is the large amount of text devoted to a single organization in RI appropriate here? Maybe Project Weber should have its own article. Input? Dave (djkernen)|Talk to me|Please help! 17:27, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Caption

Caption under the first picture: "An outreach worker interviews a street hustler in Prague's Old Town Square in the Czech Republic.(2009)"

How to you know one of the two men is an outreach worker interviewing a street hustler?

The file name is Modern day street hustlers at work in Prague's Old Town Square in the Czech Republic..jpg — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.182.186.43 (talk) 22:21, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Actually, we don't. The file uploader originally gave it the caption "An outreach worker interviews a street hustler in Prague's Old Town Square in the Czech Republic.(2009)" On that same day, the same person changed it to "An outreach worker interviews a street hustler in Prague's Old Town Square in the Czech Republic.(2009)"

The bigger problem, though, is that we are describing living, identifiable people (or, at least one of them) as "street hustler(s)". We have no way of verifying that this is correct. IMO, the picture has to go (see WP:BLP). Until there is meaningful evidence to support either caption (or a strong argument that this is not a BLP issue, I am removing the photo. - SummerPhD (talk) 23:25, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Defining slang as intro?

The introduction to this article is primarily focuesed on clarifying the related slang. Isn't there a more beneficial way to introduce a topic? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.85.13.164 (talk) 23:59, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

The terms in bold ("male escorts, gigolos, rent-boys, hustlers, models or masseurs" are all redirects to this page. If we don't include them near the top of the article, it may be unclear to someone searching for the term why they ended up at this article. - SummerPhD (talk) 03:12, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Delete feminist theory section

The section on what feminist theorists think or theorize about male prostitution is pointless and should be deleted.108.16.0.94 (talk) 07:38, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

I agree. It is gobbledygook and it has no relevance to male prostitution. Very possibly there is something of interest that feminist scholars have to say about male prostitution but this isn't it. If nobody objects I'll delete it myself. In the meantime I will delete the beyond bizarre reference to C. S. Lewis. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.13.60.167 (talk) 20:40, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Turkish Bath ≠ Gay bathhouse

Turkish Bath
This photo is a Turkish bath, it is not a Gay bathhouse.--115.162.51.99 (talk) 07:44, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

How is there a demand?

It's extremely easy to get sex with men at any time, so why would anyone pay for sex with a man? The article should explain why thousands of people pay for something which is extremely easy to get; no-one has difficulty finding men to have sex with for free. 213.205.251.203 (talk) 22:08, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

There are plenty of people who have such difficulty -- they may be unattractive, socially awkward, or have specific needs (particular acts or utmost discretion, for example) that they are unable to satisfy through other means. Every client has their own motivation. That much is no different than with seeking female prostitution. It's not unreasonable for the article to explain this with valid sources, but your premise is faulty. HalJor (talk) 02:11, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

Most Wikipedia articles on prostitution seem to take the demand for prostitution as read, effectively treating it as WP:BLUE. Where they do get into the question of "why?", they tend to concentrate on the question of why there is a supply. Is there any particular reason for taking a different approach here? Polly Tunnel (talk) 13:27, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

The premise of the question is derogatory to the point of trolling, and devoting research time and article space to a question with such an obvious answer is unnecessary. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 14:38, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

This is a serious and relevant question. If the answer is obvious, state it. Women are far more choosy than men. Many women demand to be wined and dined and make men spend a huge amount of time, money and effort to get sex with them. The man is nearly always obliged to approach, chat up, pursue, buy gifts for, and chase the woman. The man has to prove to the woman that he's worthy of sex, demonstrating his socioeconomic status and ability to dance, tell jokes/anecdotes and seduce. Women usually want confident, 'established' men who have a great deal of sexual experience/expertise. Many men don't have those qualities and hence are routinely rejected/friend zoned by women. Most men want sex on the first date, but most women keep men waiting. Therefore it's easy to see why there are many female prostitutes. In contrast, it is extremely easy for anyone to quickly get sex with men for free. Any woman can get sex with men with extreme ease - even a woman such as Aileen Wuornos, who was extremely unappealing in every aspect and had no positive qualities, easily got a lot of sex with many men. Any homosexual man can easily and quickly get sex with men for free in gay bars, on gay websites etc. A gay man doesn't need to be good-looking, have good social skills etc. to be successful at cruising for sex - whether on the Internet, in parks, bars etc. - he can merely wait to be approached. There aren't any gay men who have difficulty getting sex with men. There are no 40 year old homosexual male virgins who've asked hundreds of men for sex but have been rejected every time. There are no brothels anywhere in the world for female customers, so why are there homosexual brothels? 213.205.251.203 (talk) 23:54, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

You're making a lot of assertions that (as has already been explained) are simply not true, and no reliable sources will back them up. (Hint: MRA and PUA blogs do not count.) If your goal is to use this as a soapbox for some fringe views about gender in society, that's not what Wikipedia is for. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 03:17, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

You're repeatedly assuming bad faith. I'm not a troll, or anything to do with activism or pick-up artistry. What parts of what I've said are you saying are untrue? What I'm saying is fact that is easily and readily observable - not fringe in any way. It's fact that it's extremely easy to get sex with men - they don't need to be wined & dined, be given expensive presents or taken on several dates before they'll be willing to have sex with someone. Anyone can get sex with a man for free within minutes with minimal effort. No-one faces a long hard struggle to find a man who's willing to have sex with him/her. All incels are heterosexual males. My point is that this article should state why thousands of men (and a tiny number of women) pay for sex with men when it's extremely easy to get sex with men for free. 92.40.78.35 (talk) 00:38, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Your beliefs are not supported by reliable sources. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 02:08, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

"Gigolo": Inconsistent Wikipedia Redirect

A Wikipedia search for Gigolo takes the user to a page dedicated to that topic, while Gigalo redirects to this page. As far as I can determine, both spellings are acceptable. Suggestion: either dedicate a page to both spellings, or redirect both spellings to this page (and include a definition of the term). Jimmy Hers (talk) 01:52, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

I see no point in having a separate article with so little information. I'd recommend merging Gigolo into this article and redirect. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 12:26, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

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"Homosexual prostitute" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Homosexual prostitute. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 February 18#Homosexual prostitute until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Bangalamania (talk) 19:41, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

Help with the bibliography

Hello,

Can anyone help me edit the bibliography? I am trying to add and format my sources correctly but it isn't working out. I recently added some information and would appreciate the help.

Totallytubularthesaurus (talk) 21:03, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

Addition by Ksantos803

The material recently added by User:Ksantos803 has a number of problems. One is that, while most of the material is generally relevant to this article, much of it isn't relevant to the section it's in: It's about how male prostitution has been perceived, not how it has been regulated. Another is the use of terms such as "fairies" and "pansies". These are (at best) slang, and shouldn't be used as if they were objective technical terms. I've already removed a section that was just a lecture about the early history of AIDS, which is a whole other topic. Jason A. Quest (talk) 01:50, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Black Sexual Politics Writing Intensive

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 22 August 2022 and 8 December 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Bem2c4, MNC-2016, Elaineamery (article contribs). Peer reviewers: Gf6f3, Tge3hn, YSL123, KennyTharp, Jcrg34, Dsgm3r, Lilurkel44.

— Assignment last updated by Cjcarney (talk) 19:39, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

Students of this course who are editing this are ready to post their contribution to the article. Sex tourism is the subsection that we decided to edit. MNC-2016 (talk) 19:37, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

Hollywood-centric

The section concerning popular culture involves no disclaimer nor acknowledges that its perspective and content is exclusively limited to Hollywood references. Arcsoda (talk) 03:43, 15 May 2023 (UTC)