Talk:Photograph manipulation/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Photoshopping merge

Please see the discussion at Talk:Photoshopping about why the section on photoshopping is being merged here, and comment there if you like. Dicklyon 17:09, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Use of Photoshop as a verb

Now, I understand that Adobe doesn't like their software used as a verb, but the section specifically on that should stay as is, instead of how it was changed in these two edits. I mean, who says "I enhanced this picture with Adobe Photoshop software"? No one. It may be genericization of the trademark, but it's used in the article to illustrate popular usage. Just an FYI for anyone coming across my edits and wondering why I made them. --clpo13 20:40, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

See my comments about wikipedia contributing to copyright violations Talk:List_of_generic_and_genericized_trademarks#article_for_AFD.Tstrobaugh 18:08, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't quite see the relevance. You seem to be ignoring the difference between using a trademark generically and commenting on the generic use of a trademark. If you think the current section crosses the line, it can probably be adjusted by strategic use of quote marks or by substituing "photochopping" in places where the term seems be used generically. But wholesale denial or removal of content is not the way to fix it. Dicklyon 18:32, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

You are correct. I do not distinguish, on wikipedia, the difference between using a trademark incorrectly, and the commenting of the incorrect use of a trademark in an article. Please tell me how you think it is different to order a "rum and coke" at a bar (to use the old SNL bit "no coke, pepsi") and receive a "rum and cola" and writing an article in a newspaper that quotes "this guy ordered a "rum and coke""? How is one a trademark violation and the other not?Tstrobaugh 19:23, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like you need to consult a trademark attorney. Dicklyon 19:38, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Why do you assume that I'm not a trademark attorney?Tstrobaugh 20:15, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

The point I was making is that I don't think this section is more just commenting on generification, not actually helping the process along. Revisions to make it known that genericization is a bad thing are okay, but the original edits I reverted completely changed it to something no one ever would say. That was all I intended. --clpo13 21:13, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

History section

I've split this into two, as it was unneccesarily large and covers two related, but different, themes. Journalism is current, rather than historical, even if the chronology does have to stop somehwere :) It provides a segue into the Ethics section, which could do with expanding, with links from the techincal terminology to Image editing. Basically there's a bunch of acceptable and unacceptable manipulation guidelines here and there (mostly in the US) which I'm currently reading up on. I was considering a spinoff article but I'll post it here first, if people think it's appropriate and it's not too long. mikaul^talk 10:45, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Confusion with Image editing

This article and Image editing are far too easily confused. Ok, once you're here (or there) it's quite obvious, but I (for one) can never remember which is the "technical" one. Photo manipulation is much more appropriate for this article, due to the slightly critical/negative connotation of the word "manipultation". I'd like to see the redirect currently in place there apply to Photo editing instead, to save all the confusion. Anyone know how to undo a redirect? mikaul^talk 10:52, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Photo manipulation does redirect to photo editing. What's the problem again? Are you saying you want to undo the previous move from photo manipulation to photo editing, where the reason was that manipulation sounds negative, because you'd prefer the more negative-sounding title? I wouldn't object, but let's see what others think. Dicklyon 17:19, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

If a revert is all it takes, yes. Where is the discussion referring to conotations of the word, exactly? I'd have said this article was a natural spinoff from image editing, an examination of its common uses, consequences and ethical considerations, which would be too much for the main descriptive article. Negative-sounding isn't a POV issue in this instance, it's a recognition of the verifiable falsehoods perpetrated via manipulation of visual media, which is negative by its very nature. Where applications are ethically neutral/positive, the term "manipulation" can be equally neutral/positve, cf manipulation of a limb, for example.
The problem is that we currently have two very similar-sounding articles with closely-related topics, only one of which is about the technical process of image editing. It seems obvious to me that the spinoff have a distinct name and "image manipulation" fits the bill perfectly. "Photo editing", on reflection, should redirect to "Image editing", not this page. mikaul^talk 19:15, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Photochopping

AFAIK, "photochopping" refers specifically to the interchanging of sections from different images, in order to create interesting juxtapositions etc.

It is not a generic term to replace "photoshopping" coined "out of respect for Adobe's trademark"; in fact it could be argued that it contributes equally to trademark dilution as it is obviously a play on the word "Photoshop". It is also not in common usage and the section on Photoshopping reads very poorly (in fact it makes little sense) with "photoshopped" replaced by "photochopped". If we're really desperate not to dilute Adobe's trademark (and frankly, I don't think it's our place to tiptoe around it when commenting on the phenomenon itself) then we should use a neutral term like "edited" or "manipulated" rather than some naff (and misused) bowdlerisation. --YFB ¿ 18:18, 16 June 2007 (UTC) Agreed. There's an active related discussion further up this page. mikaul^talk 19:18, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

OK, you may be right. How about "shopping" for the generic alternative? Seems like we ought to be able to converge on a way of saying what needs to be said without stepping too much on trademarks; we'll have to keep reverting DreamGuy's removals, of course. Dicklyon 19:35, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

There's already an article on Photoshop contests, so there's no reason for having so much space taken up by a neologism by a bunch of internet kiddies who confuse something they do a lot and words they use with what the world as a whole does and what's encyclopedic. The mere concept that anybody would even consider "photochopped" to be something to be discussed in an encyclopedia article about this topic is just ridiculous. I wish people would start following Wikipedia policies on such things instead of putting their nonsense back in the article and recruiting the same old problem editors who go around reverting important edits to bring articles in line with encyclopedia standards. User:DreamGuy 19:47, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Didn't you get blocked for vandalism last time we had this discussion? I thought it was resolved pretty well, converting the photoshopping article to a small section here. And it's increasingly well referenced. Take a look at the latest ref I added, which verifies that the usage is a lot more common than the "kiddies" you like to disparagingly characterize people as. I'm sure we would welcome any improvements you care to make, or even removal of unverifiable statements; but large-scale removal of well-cited material, along with the refs, is usually known as vandalism, isn't it? Or is that not one the policies you refer to as worth respecting? Dicklyon 20:16, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

No, I *didn't* get blocked for vandalism last time we had this conversation. And you apparently STILL have not bothered to read the actual vanadalism policy if you are making such nonsensical claims. The problem is you say you welcome improvements but you don't, you just blind revert to your long, highly policy-violating version and ignoring the many major problems with the nonsense. All you do is have another editor who is known to go around blind reverting my changes because he's upset that he lost a conflict with me in the past showing up to threaten to block me yet again to try to bully his way into winning another fight, except neither of you are going to win, because policies are very clearly on my side, as proven time and time and time again on conflicts of this nature on other articles. DreamGuy 04:04, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I thought this was you. Dicklyon 07:04, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

My understanding of "chopping" or "chops" was that this was an abreviation from "Channel operations" and referred specifically to use of channels within the program. I'm not saying any other uses are right or wrong, just wanted to add this 3tmx 23:50, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

I've never heard that, though chop can mean channel op in the IRC context. Dicklyon 00:26, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

its mentioned here by a reviewer, who appears to quote text the from the book: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Photoshop-Channel-Chops-Compositing-Techniques/dp/1562057235/ref=sr_1_1/026-2486320-3330051?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1182500559&sr=8-1

3tmx 08:34, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

mind you calling a book "channel chops" if the sense is how i think its being used would surely be a bit like when people talk about an "ATM Machine" or a "PIN number"

3tmx 08:36, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I personally never heard anyone use the term, ever. Nonetheless a comment at that linked page states:

I believe that Kai Krause coined the term "chops" to describe channel ops back around '90 or '91 :
"Chops" is an acronym, created by the authors, for channel operations."

which might be verifiable if someone has access to the relevant volume of Kai Krause: Famous Quotes and Digital Anecdotes. mikaul^talk 09:51, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Yeah I agree the use of the term to replace "photoshopping" is not in common usage, and I have never heard anyone use it before either. Most people I know refer to use as either photoshopping, retouching (which is arguably a specific area of image manipulation) or post-production. If (from what i can gather from above conversations) people have been suggesting "Photochopped" should be used within the article (other than maybe a mention of the term) its a definite no from me

3tmx 12:11, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

• I suggest (per Dicklyon, recent edit) the splitting out of "photoshopping" again, to give this semi-relevant and clearly contentious info its own space. It's only going to get worse over time: there are quite a few images and so on which could illustrate the use of the term "photoshopping" which I can't see going down well here at all. "Shopping" in particluar seems a much more appropriate and widely used term for the more frivolous use of the tool and frees up this article for non-verb uses, and as for "chopping"... leave a short summary and good riddance! mikaul^talk 07:08, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I think the criticisms of the "photoshopping section" by dreamguy are certainly reasonable. For example

"Photoshopping", "photo-shopping", or simply "shopping", is slang for the digital editing of photos"

and

"Although professional graphic artists and designers might describe elements of their work as "photoshopping", the practice is more commonly associated with creating visual jokes on Internet sites"

The implication of the latter sentence when taking into consideration the former is basically that the digital editing of images is primarily associated with creating visual jokes on the internet. This is totally TOTALLY perposterous "more commonly associated" - BY WHO???? i think this is POV

3tmx 14:52, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree that that's a valid criticism, worth working on. I don't agree with DreamGuy's wholesale removal, which seemed to be primarily based on believing the point that you are questioning. Dicklyon 17:04, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I added a ref that more or less supports it. Feel free to edit it to be more precisely consistent with the ref, and/or any other relevant refs you can find. Dicklyon 17:33, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I've changed the word "practice" to "term", as this was obviously the original intent of the sentence. mikaul^talk 19:19, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry but that reference is not up to scratch- no way; plus the idea that the average man in the street thinks of "internet jokes" when the term photoshop is used is just obviously wrong. I'm sure you can find some random source that states 2+2=5 but that doesn't mean its correct. Plus the source does not appear to counter the very precise criticism i've made about the current phrasing. I find this section a bit indulgent and to quote dreamguy not very encylopaedic

3tmx 21:59, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. And, more importantly, we already have an article on Photoshop contests that covers this slang usage, so it's not like I am trying to get it off Wikipedia completely, just in the section it belongs in. When we talk about robots in the Robot article, for example, we don't suddenly take up half the article talking about kids building robots so that they can fight in arena competitions and then try to claim that robots is more a term used for people who build robot warriors than in industrial or fictional uses. Some little side pastime along with some minor Internet slang should not take over what should be a serious article. DreamGuy 22:14, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Your analogy is not really apt. It might be if there were a section on something like "roboshopping" in the robots article, which might be a good place for such content. But anyway the photoshopping content, about the usage of this term for image editing, fits well in this article, and is not as relevant to the article on contests. I agree that we need to work on better refs; GBS seems to be missing some key info and front matter on that one I found, though it does claim to have an isbn. Dicklyon 22:24, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

The current implication of this section is not that "the average man in the street thinks of "internet jokes" when the term photoshop is used", but that the term photoshopping refers to something other than commercial image editing, which, as far as it goes, is correct. mikaul^talk 23:05, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Re. validity: if this were an article entitled photo manipulation, most of the section as is would indeed fit in well here. As it is, photo editing is near-synonymous with image editing and as such strongly implies applied, professional use of image editing tools (per DreamGuy). In its current context I would leave the section at that one statement, remove all other discussion of the various nicks and slang terms related to the recreational/frivolous use of the tool and spin it off to its own article from whence it came. How many image editing professionals refer to their craft as "photoshopping"? None that I know of. The section is way too long for "photo editing" and lends far too much weight to non-professional use. mikaul^talk 23:05, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

What's wrong with non-professional use? My opinion is that when people think of photo manipulation, they most likely think of messing with a picture in Photoshop. I say leave the section as is. It's not really enough to make a separate article, and it is relevant to the main subject of the article (photo editing). People don't come to Wikipedia to learn solely about professionals or professional usage of a term; they come to learn about every facet of a subject, which, in this case, would include photoshopping contests and the like. --clpo13 23:26, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

That's my point, you would expect "photo manipulation" to contain this info. The fact is that professional use and "messing about" are two very different things. You would not expect a techincal article like image editing to contain any more than a passing reference to it. "Photo editing" is practically synonymous with "image editing" and should redirect there, and this article should be renamed "photo manipulation" to deal with side-issues like Every time you masturbate... God kills a kitten. I'd have no problem with it then. Frankly, what people do with their tools in their spare time is none of my concern... mikaul^talk 23:41, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

The question of whether this article should be moved to "photo manipulation" is an independent question, which you can find discussion of above. I would be OK with it, but it had some objections; in fact, iirc, the article was previously moved from their to photo editing to avoid POV connotations. Dicklyon 00:00, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I disagree, I think they're related questions. A visitor looking for "photoshopping" or similar hobbyist themes would look under "photo manipulation" first. A serious background issue, mentioned by several contributors here, is that hobbyist themes have no place in a techincal article. Notwithstanding the fact that this isn't a technical article, tech info is exactly what I'd expect to find by searching either "image editing" OR "photo editing". Given the expressed theme of this article – uses, cultural impact and ethical concerns [which are] beyond the technical process and skills involved – what possible rationale is there for this article having a name so close to "Image editing"? It was changed from "photo manipuluation" without consesus, AFAICS, and apparently without awareness of the existence of Image editing.

Rationalising article names and content is key to resolving this "photoshopping" dispute. Once correctly named, this article has to mention "photoshopping" etc. because it is photo manipulation and not photo editing (which refers more to work on a single image). Another (better) place for it is photomontage (I'll come to that later). Once redirected, "photo editing" won't refer to any of this. The plan of action should be:

1. Move this article back to Photo manipulation
2. Redirect Photo editing to Image editing and amend the {{for}} tag at Image editing to link back here (photo manipulation)
3. Edit the "Photoshopping" section to remove all mention of non-frivolous and "professional" image editing.
4. Spin off these (using {{See}} tag) and other elaboration of the "shopping" theme to Photoshop contest and Photomontage and expand it there if necessary

The only really contentious part, IMO, is the moving of some text to Photomontage. It would have to be discussed there, but photoshopping is already mentioned in the lead: [photomontage] is referred to by professionals as "compositing", and in casual usage is often called "photoshopping" and properly referenced as such.

I've also relocated the Hypnosis info to the History section without "shopping" tagged to it. Hypnosis were early creative photo-compositors, not frivolous proto-"shoppers".

Sorry for the essay, but that's my 102-cents-worth.

mikaul^talk 13:12, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree that a lot of the problems are relating to different understandings of terminology (incidently i strongly disagree with Mikaul's suggestion that professionals do not use the term "photoshop"; they might not use the term formally e.g. describing themselves as "photoshopers" to a client but the verb "photoshop" is still used within the photographic industry and in my opinion in no way is exclusively understood as referring to amateur use).

I think that the current terminology "image editing" "photo editing" etc are all unclear terms and don't really describe what the pages are about and how they are different. What about if all the terms were directed to some kind of disambiguation page?

3tmx 14:33, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I've changed the title "usage" to Amateur usage" to clarify what the paragraph is actually about and altered some of the phrasing to make it sound more neutral. I hope these phrasings are accepted as an interim improvement until we thrash out some of the broader problems with these pages.

3tmx 14:45, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Let me just put the record straight re. Photoshop as a verb: I don't dispute the fact that image editors use it in the past tense ("it was photoshopped out") but I've honestly never heard an editor use the term "photoshopping" in any respect, neither using the present continuous "I'm photoshopping it out" nor the gerund "when photoshopping an image, do this" – hence "shopping" is as foreign to me as "chopping" and I can only assume it's only ever used as urban slang regarding frivolous or mischevous use.

There are a few dozen published books that use photoshopping as a verb; most capitalize it, but quite few don't, too. Dicklyon 19:21, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

But you're right, "photoshopped" is much more common in books. Dicklyon 20:08, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

We need a broad consensus to support article name changes, and it's hard to prove that people search for x theme using y phrase, but it seems like common sense to redirect the "editing" titles to the same place. I'm not sure disabiguation is needed beyond the "see also" tags in appropriate places, confusing though it might initialy be to a visitor. mikaul^talk 19:04, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

We do have a redirect to here from Photo manipulation. Dicklyon 19:21, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I noticed that from the edit at 17th January. I can't see the point of having photo manipulation redirect to a page with a title which doesn't adequately describe its contents. If the whole article was called "photoshopping" it would be more appropriate than the current title. However, as I said, anything more than a mention of "photoshopping" should probably go to photomontage (because that's what it's about) and the phrase "photo editing" should redirect to image editing for the same reason - that's what that's about. Leaving photo manipulation to describe the content of this article. Can we agree on these definitions, at least? It's important, because terminology is important. We need to get the definitions right, call these processes by their proper names and name articles carefully, according to their content, or we will perpetually run into disputes not unlike the edit war happening here right now. mikaul^talk 23:13, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

It seems pretty clear, however, that photomontage is just one small subset of photo imaging, and doesn't begin to cover the range of techniques that are referred to as photoshopping. Personally, I think the best move would be to just move the current article back to photo manipulation.

It true I was thinking of the narrower "head-swapping", photo contest-type montage. I'm not sure this is such a tiny part of photoshopping though, seems to be the main activity referred to (at a guess) and as such, photo-manipulation isn't the place for detailed examination of photoshopping: it warrants a mention, sure, but the other artciles (or reinstate the original "photoshopping" one, as suggested earlier) would be the way to go. mikaul^talk 08:35, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Same confusion DreamGuy has, thinking it only applies to "contests" or something narrow. Did you bother to glance at the books I pointed out above? Dicklyon 14:48, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

I would provisionally support changing this articles name to photo manipulation as this describes the current pages content much better than current. Dicklyon i'm not sure what the point of those books was?

3tmx 18:52, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

I'd suggest we leave the paragraph about amateur usage until after the paragraph: " The shorter term "shopped" is also frequently used to describe an image that has obviously been edited"; delete or move the rest and put appropriate links to photoshop contest and photomontage.

Dicklyon - I agree the term photoshop refers to something broader than photomontage, but in its current state the amateur use detailed here and available elsewhere is predominantly photomontage; like i've said earlier i'm arguing that one major understanding term photoshop is as synonymous with retouching, image editing etc. The rest of the info is unnecessary- no point in reiterating every technique an amateur might use when it is pointless and clogs up the flow of this page - details of these techniques are available on the image editing page

3tmx 19:11, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

(Edit conflict: sorry!) Google Books shows that the term "photoshopped" is in common use, a point I conceded a few posts ago. "Photoshopping" is much less common, however. In any event, I'm really not sure what demonstration of this usage is supposed to support, as 3tmx says. The point is, "photoshopping" refers to nothing which isn't routinely done under the name of image editing or photomontage. It simply doesn't describe anything unique, it's just a term used colloquially to refer to common image edting techniques. Where it might refer to something unique, that thing belongs in photoshop contest with all the other wacky things people get up to with CS3 and too much spare time on their hands. As I said, terminology is important, and where it's just another way of saying the same thing, it doesn't warrant a major section of it's own. Basically, this isn't a jargon guide and there's no justification for the overbearing presence this term currently has in this article. mikaul^talk 19:13, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, you did miss my point. Photoshopping is just another term for photo editing, essentially, the way I read it; it is more commonly found as photoshopped, but not at all rare as photoshopping, with is the form that's parallel to the subject photo editing. It DOES include a lot more that just photo MONTAGE, which is a subset of editing that has to do with assembling parts of images. The pink elephant example that someone removed was a good example of a non-montage type of photo editing or photoshopping. The distinction form "image editing" is nothing to do with the term photoshopping, but rather with the split of content between the technical techniques in "image editing" and the social/political etc. implications and applications related to photographs in "photo editing"; photoshopping fits better in this part, in my opinion. Do some strategic editing if you think the section has undue weight, but don't throw out as much as DreamGuy does, as there's a pretty clear consensus that he goes way too far. Dicklyon 22:24, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

how is photoshopping distinct from image editing ? because i can't see a strict formal difference?

3tmx 23:44, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Is someone saying it is distinct? Or do you mean to ask why is it in the photo editing article as opposed to the image editing article? I had some remarks on that above. Dicklyon 04:27, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

You aren't demonstrating a distiction between photoshopping and any other term, sufficient to warrant a large section of it's own in this article, whether it's called photo editing, image editing or photo manipulation. I've argued that the terms "photo editing" and "image editing" are practically symonymous and I've seen no argument to distinguish them except your claim that "photoshopping" *somehow* is more relevant to one than the other. How can this be?

I think you are confusing two issues again. The content split between "image editing" and "photo editing" has nothing to do with the photoshopping issue, and it's hard to make a rational response to these kinds of comments and questions. But if you think there' no distinction, then you could just put it into the leas as a synonym, like "Photo editing, also known as photoshopping or image editing, ..." It think that would be a bad idea, since there are things that need to be pointed out about phototshopping, which is why there's a small section on it. Dicklyon 17:18, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps you mean to say that "photoshopping" belongs in this cultural/ethical/uses article (whatever it happens to be called) rather than the article on technical terms? Either way, you haven't shown why it belongs here, other than mentioning that it's yet another synonym for "photo editing". Again, I ask you – what does "photoshopping" refer to which is in any way unique? If there is nothing (and I can't think of anything) which isn't covered by an existing term, then it's no more than a jargon/slang term. This "amateur use" thing bothers me, as photoshopping specific to amateur use belongs in different articles – photoshop contest, photomontage – and more general "photoshopping" practices are already covered in image editing and this article under differnt terms. In many ways, the more I think about it, it seems "photoshopping" should be limited to two short paragraphs pointing to other articles. mikaul^talk 06:59, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Right this is begining to get tedious. Dicklyon at least two editors have stated that those refs are not up to scratch - and they definitely aren't - so please don't revert them again. I really don't think amateur usage is that significant and i would need some serious convincing that it even deserves a sentence or two, if that. I am happy with the article in its current state (as per dream guy edit) and also fully endorse Mikauls proposed changes above.

3tmx 10:47, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually, this got tedious a very long time ago, when DreamGuy and his sock puppets (sorry, I mean his not-logged-in selfs) were the only ones with a problem with the photoshopping article, and we ended up with a consensus to merge it here; he's been pecking away at it ever since. Dicklyon 17:18, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Gosh, you just ignored the fact that User:3tmx completely endorsed *my* version and not yours, and said *your* reverting of it was tedious. DreamGuy 04:49, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

I've added in some of the reverted info, to fill it out into a more complete reference, plus the seealso tags to move the other rv stuff to. Still not sure about the refs at the beginning. Also removed bolding, which I think must have been a carryover from the original article's lead. mikaul^talk 17:48, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your attention on this, but I think your introductory phrase "Referring to general recreational use" is inappropriately narrow for the use of the term photoshopping; this is one domain where the term is popular, but it's also used much more generally. Did you glance at the variety of book refs where this term is used? Dicklyon 18:37, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I did... it just sounded right like that. I have no refs to back up the statement, which was based on my experience and stuff I've read here and there. Fair cop ;o) mikaul^talk 19:10, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Progress

I think we've made some progress in tuning up the photoshopping section, thanks to the constructive edits of several editors. Feel free to tag anything else that needs references. In the mean time, I'll keep reverting DreamGuy's removals. Dicklyon 04:30, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, um, except that you have no reason to revert my edits, as these topics have been discussed and there is no justification for putting the badly-sourced, neologistic POV-pushing stuff back in, especially when there is ALREADY an article on Photoshop contests to cover it. Your antagonist edits, and especially your acting like such acts are acceptable, are wholly inappropriate. DreamGuy 04:47, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

And User:3tmx above clearly pointed out that you should NOT keep reverting, and you ignored him and trued to pretend that he was agreeing with you. Are you just not paying attention, or are you purposefully misrepresenting what other people said? DreamGuy 04:50, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't think we're so far away from resolving this. I had hoped the slimmed-down version I posted the other day would solve some of the main issues, which AFAICS are as follows:

1. The WP:UNDUE and WP:RS problems: not just by shortening the article but by removing mention of the minority term "photochopping" which has no reliable source and which belongs entirely on Photomontage, if anywhere.
2. The WP:NEOLOGISM objection, valid for those terms (photochopping, gimp-up) which are only here because the term "photoshopping" (and its immediate variants) are here. This simply isn't the place for a list of image editing neologisms.
3. The bare facts of the matter (ie the first paragraph) are not enough to explain the presence of the term here. The rationale for "photoshopping" being here at all is that there is a recognizable "culture" of recreational image manipulation which uses the colloquial term to describe a variety of activities. An exhaustive list isn't necessary; there are seealso links for expansion of these themes in the relevant article.

My apologies, I realise I should have listed this rationale out earlier. I'll revert back to (more or less) the version it refers to and I'd appreciate it if any additions or revisions to this version of the section were discussed here first. mikaul^talk 11:12, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Links

Thanks for removing those links dreamguy. I've removed a link to that particular website a couple of times. I've put a warning on their talk, not that i imagine they'll look at it.3tmx 12:53, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Replaced para with new source

The following is my rationale for the restoration of the last revert.

I hope you agree that the Wired article is source enough for this. Maybe we should cite peer-reviewed sociological studies proving that increasingly vast numbers of kiddies get off on photomontage, but this is hardly a controversial claim. The article shows that it was notable in 2001, and this paper goes some way to showing that it hasn't abated at all since, although as I say, I think citing another source is overkill.

I don't think this one single single paragraph is WP:UNDUE given the scope of the article that expressly mentions "cultural impact" & which, without this para, doesn't get a mention.

Finally, the neologism aspect is covered in the first para, not the second one.

If there's something else I've missed, I would very much appreciate hearing about it here first, rather than the edit summary of another revert.

mikaul^talk 12:31, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

It's not "one single paragraph" but a huge paragraph and pointless image full of trivial claims already covered on another article. Just by percentage of space of the total article it was HUGE amount of undue weight. It'd be different if this article were ten times as long as it is and full of great, solid info, then one paragraph (even a long one) and maybe one photo would be fine. In this one it sticks out like a sore thumb. Link to Photoshop contest. Done. Unfortunately we have some kiddie who wants every article on the site that even mentions Photoshop to suddenly be filled with long pieces about how cool they are for playing around with it for online jokes. We already had to move this off Photoshop, Photoshopping, and this article, and probably lots of other places too. DreamGuy 22:43, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Give it a rest, dude. Dicklyon 04:36, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Please read WP:POT, and the one named after you: WP:DICK DreamGuy 09:41, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I hear what you're saying but your method of saying it I find unconstructive to say the least. I happen to have quite a bit of (what I sincerely hope you will agree is) "solid info" to post up, which will certainly redress that balance. The whole article is a mess, not just this section – in fact it's the only section which is in any way finished; the Lead is too short, the Types section should be called Uses (in accordance with the lead) and needs completely rewriting, History is incomplete, Ethics is a much bigger topic than we have here and should encompass the Journalism section, and so on. I don't know about you, but I like to see these things evolve, gradually building into a worthy piece, based on consensus. It clearly can't do this under these circumstances.

You are alone, I'm afraid, in considering this particular paragraph "trivial". It is notable in accordance with the Lead, which refers to it directly ("cultural impact") – as there is a source for the info in this para and the neologism issue is trivial there, the real issue is WP:UNDUE. The argument for the notability of this para is basically that there is no other notable cultural impact of photo manipulation. Is there? In fairness, I'd support the moving of the Fark-type stuff to the Journalism section (as it's more relevant to that than the cultural thing) which would also slim-down this section. Is this a compromise we can build on? For now? mikaul^talk 08:28, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Journalism section? FARK? That's not even in the realm of reasonable. And as far as your claim that I am alone in considering the paragraph trivial, no, I have Wikipedia policies on my side, and those always trump little kiddies wanting to talk about their little playthings on articles about serious topics.

And as far as there being no other notable cultural impact of editing photos, um, well, that's assuming that this one is notable when it certainly isn't, not for this article anyway, and certainly there are far more important cultural impacts, like women's magazines retouching photos of celebrities so they look thinner and the issues that raises, and just in general all little imperfections getting wiped out so everyone people sees in ads are inhumanly perfect, and probably a lot more than that if someone sat down to try to think about the topic as a serious topic and not a place for squirrels with big balls or whatever stupid photo they think is kewl. DreamGuy 09:48, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Compromise, anyone?

All right, I've been loosely following the ongoing debate about how much about Photoshopping belongs in this article, and I could have sworn that a compromise was made a while back. However, judging from the recent history, a compromise is a long way off. Seriously, what happened to discussion? Did someone make a Wikipedia essay called "Edit warring is okay, as long as you really, really think you're right"? Seriously! This is juvenile! I'm not taking sides here, mind you. I just don't want to see a constant stream of notices on my watchlist about how Dicklyon reverted DreamGuy's edits and vice versa. Come to a consensus people! If things don't turn out how you like, don't just go behind peoples' backs and change things to how you like it! I can't be the only one getting sick of this. Let's decide on what to do and leave it at that. Isn't that how things work, or did I miss something while I was asleep? --clpo13 07:11, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it was all worked out a while back, but then DreamGuy came back after a block; I've been pretty flexible about changes other than big removals, which is all he does, do I just keep reverting; he doesn't do it three times in a day, so no 3RR violation as far as I can tell, and he hasn't responded usefully to warnings in the past, so I don't waste my time on that any more. Thanks for putting back what he removed and your attempt at a compromise. However, I see one problem with your latest, at least. The "see also" in the photoshopping section to the Photoshop contest article makes sense, but I don't see what the e-mail art article has to do with anything. I was also concerned that the hoax photo didn't have much to do with photoshop contests, since nothing here or there said so, but on further investigation I found it was indeed a contest winner, so I fixed the caption there and linked the vote. I would still be nice to have an illustration of a photo that was avowedly "photoshopped" and not part of a contest for this section. Dicklyon 15:20, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I'd say the CLPo13 version, which is pretty much the same as Mikauls compromise edit anyway is ok for now. But i strongly disagree with the reinclusion of the image suggested by Dicklyon which fails to demonstrate anything about anything and is of very little use to anyone reading the article. Plus shouldn't it be on the photoshop contest page????I think the question over the whole war is whether we seek arbitration or whatever dispute process wikipedia provides or just let things continue. I can't say i feel inclusion of amateur brings anything particularly enlightening to the article, but thats just my opinion. 3tmx 16:14, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I removed it from the photoshop contest page because it didn't seem to have any connection to a contest. Its info page talked about it spreading memetically, so it seemed like a candidate to illustrate what was being discussed here. But I'd be happy to see an alternative illustration instead. Dicklyon 16:17, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

The ActiveDiscuss hint

I'm trying to figure out how to interpret this tag: "Some statements may be disputed, incorrect, unverified, biased or otherwise objectionable." As far as I know, there are no such statements, unless DreamGuy's desire to remove some stuff is due to "otherwise objectionable." There's really no ongoing editing or development, just a dispute over a small section that is all that's left of the article he took on the obliteration of a few months back. Dicklyon 06:30, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

I thought about putting it just in that section, but I figured it might be easier to see at the top. Basically, it's just trying to get him to discuss his recent changes, which he hasn't been really up to doing. Might be a bit pointless though, since he is the only one causing problems. I doubt he'd get the hint anyways. Ah well. --clpo13 06:44, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

I think he and I have said about all we have to say. What would be useful would be to hear from a few others, so that we can get feel for some kind of consensus. Perhaps a request for comment? Dicklyon 15:44, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

That's a good idea under the circumstances. Agree with the ActiveDiscuss tag too. I'm happy to sum up and post the RfC; I'll put a brief summary of the situation below and give it a week; if we have no more input by then I'll get onto it. mikaul^talk 19:26, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't think this can fairly been described as "all dreamguys fault" Dicklyon - you have to take some responsibility too. Not so long ago the section was grotesquely indulgent and way overlong- Mikauls' version was a very reasonable comprimise for something that needs only a sentence or two - yet you were still trying to reinsert pointless images from prior to Mikauls edit over the course of the last 24 hrs. In fairness to Dreamguy he has -whatever you think of his opinions - been supporting his argument by citing policy when you have produced a lot of dodgy citiations.

3tmx 16:19, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps so; please point out the diff you are referring to (or several); on review, I find I did add a photo illustration when the section had been reduced to none; most of my other edits were reverts to versions by you or by Mikaul. Anyway, I'm willing take responsibility for the side that says we want this section to not be reduced to just a trivial mention, when it's actually a fairly prominent and notable phenomenon. Pointing to "undue weight" is just DreamGuy's opinion, on which we differ. Dicklyon 16:43, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, appreciate that for the most part you have reverted to my or Mikaul's edits rather than earlier versions. I think Dreamguy could possibly be more productive pursuing his changes through alternative means rather than warring, which does no one favours. 3tmx 17:02, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually, Dickylon has shown himself to completely ignore any discussion, any consensus, and so forth and blindly revert to his preferred version. He tried this on other articles previously. The only thing that does work is to undo his edits and improve the article. It worked on multiple other articles already, but he's been causing problems at this one longer than usual. Once he realizes he has no chance of prevailing he'll give up like always, and he;s always been the main person opposing all improvements. Once he goes away the others can discuss things like responsible editors. We already see from a number of editors broad support to undo all the nonsense he keeps putting back. We'll get there yet. DreamGuy 05:28, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I've tried talking with DreamGuy on that point, but he deletes all my comments on his talk page. He doesn't appear to be willing to make compromises past what he's already done. Perhaps someone else could try talking to him? --clpo13 19:32, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

I deleted all your comments because they were not any attempt to discuss but just wild, rambling accusations of breaking policies and causing problems, which were completely false, and because I tried to talk on HIS talk page (where his talk page says he prefers to talk), but he insisted upon putting his ill-informed, mean-spirited histrionics on my page, even after he was told to knock it off, which was clear harassment-- and was confirmed as such by the admins he tried to run off to to complaint to me about. DreamGuy 05:28, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

You are paranoid. First off, I never explicitly accused you, and certainly not in any wild, rambling fashion (a bit uncivil perhaps, but no more than your usual comments). Second, I reply to comments originally made on my talk page. Since I first commented on your page, the discussion should have stayed there. As to the harassment bit, you are guilty of exactly the same. You know what I'm referring to. Let's drop this and focus on the article at hand, shall we? --clpo13 22:48, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

You certainly won't win anything by making personal attacks. And, no, I have no clue what you are referring to about "harassment" and me being guilty of it. All I did was follow your rules on your talk page that ou reply there, and you insisted on not doing that, and in fact, you are STILL insisting on posting to my talk page a month later despite being warned off multiple times. If you really weren't trying to be harassing you would have listened to myself or the admins who said you shouldn't be doing that. DreamGuy 19:39, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Request for Comment

I think this sums up the disputed section about right. Feel free to amend anything you see fit. I'll hold off adding key comments from current contributors for now, but hopefully I'll get onto that later today.

Some of the content of the section headed "Photoshopping" is disputed. The current balance of agreement is as follows:

Not disputed:

1. A section headed "Photoshopping" belongs in this article.
2. It is broadly agreed that the neologism Photoshopping is in common use. The first paragraph has not been subject to repeated reversions.
3. Some mention should be made in this section of the cultural impact of photo manipulation vis a vis the recreational use of image editing programs.

Disputed:

Most of the dispute centers around the undue weight accorded the section which results from a fuller explanation of the term, specifically:

1. The inclusion of several alternative neologisms (shopping, photochopping, GIMPing, etc)
2. The inclusion of pictorial examples (eg this, this and this)
3. Any elaboration of the theme which duplicates information already existing in (a) the rest of the article or (b) related articles, specifically Image editing, Photomontage and Photoshop contest.

On the other hand there remains a concern that:

1. Information in the original Photoshopping article no longer has a coherent "home"
2. Photoshopping is a notable phenomenon which should be properly recognised; it was merged here, so it should be elaborated here
3. The phenomenon can not be properly illustrated without at least one image-based illustration.

Disputed

This is in the not disputed section:

"Some mention should be made in this section of the cultural impact of photo manipulation vis a vis the recreational use of image editing programs."

That is, in fact, disputed. My recent edits leaving a small section on that was a compromise, which, of course, was ignored by the kiddies who want amateur trivial nonsense to take over every serious article on this site. My position is that "Photoshopping" only needs to be mentioned at all as a term for photo editing based upon Adobe Photoshop and that Adobe disputes the usage. There's absolutely no call to draw any sort of attention to the fact that some bored kids with nothing better to do also play around with crap and then demand the world treat that as important for doing so. It's like going to the Microphone article and finding a couple of paragraphs about how kids sometimes grab them and make fart noises into them for their own amusement. Articles about the kids playing around already exist, and the See also section already links to them. That is far more than they deserve, and we certainly do NOT need to waste any actual text of this article saying that "well, duh, yeah, anything grownups use for real purposes can be turned into a toy for bored idiots, let's list them all here for no apparent reason." DreamGuy 05:21, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Ok, point taken, but please clarify: was your compromise to leave a mention in the article, or in the section? Either is a valuable compromise and I would ask you to stand by it. I agree that Photoshopping is used too generically to refer only to "humorous" photomontage. A good compromise might well be to create a small section for cultural impact (which needn't amount to any more than the second para in the existing disputed section) and reduce the Photoshopping section to the existing first para, at least for now. To reflect that, I've struck out the phrase "in this section" from the "not disputed" point 3. I'll bring this up in the comments section below. mikaul^talk 11:44, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Brief history

Photoshopping was merged with this article (then Photo manipulation; there is a call to revert to this title on this page) following what appeared to be a consensus at the the Photoshopping talk page, but which effectively became the origin of the current dispute. The rest of the discussion (above) centered around the inclusion of the term "photochopping", which added the issue of neologism to the dispute. The rest of the discussion is above here. The section at issue has been edited and reverted approximately 100 times during the last six weeks.

mikaul^talk 19:26, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Correction: the move from photo manipulation was 21-Jan-07; the merge of info from photoshopping was much more recent, 14-Apr-07. The inclusion of photochopping there (bold in the lead, even) goes back more than a year, and was part of what was merged here. Dicklyon 19:34, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

I've struck out the inaccurate part. Is there anything else relevent to a brief/general history which should be in there? mikaul^talk 12:08, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

That's probably enough. No need to rehash the whole nasty history. Dicklyon 22:25, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Regarding the history, Dickylon would have you believe that the fact that Photoshopping existed at one point and that it was then redirected here means that this article needs to contain info that was there. This is false. That article had basically stolen the term "photoshopping" that simply means "to edit photos using Adobe Photoshop" and tried to claim that it was used exclusively for these childish joke edits. That was declared incorrect, and all the information about the entertainment end of things was merged to Photoshop contest, which is where it really belongs. There's absolutely no justification for spending any amount of space in this article about a serious topic to give undue weight to the activities of some trivial playing around, especially when the articles on Photoshop contests andd Internet memes already exist. IT's like it's not good enough for them that they already have multiple articles, they feel they are more important than professional, real world (and by far the majority use of the software and the "photoshopping" term) work. DreamGuy 05:21, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't get the "more important" comment. It's (less) notable, that's why it's (only briefly) mentioned. The lead mentions "cultural impact" and that's basically what it amounts to. I agree, the term is too widely used to refer exclusively to this kind of use, but I also think that a mention of this kind of use belongs here, if not under the "photoshopping" header then elsewhere in the article. mikaul^talk 11:44, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Comments

My two cents in a nutshell: first, one WP:NEOLOGISM is enough. Photoshopping is the only term worthy of mention. Others are simply not notable enough, are probably impermanent and are ultimately redundant: this is not a dictionary or a slang, jargon, or usage guide. Also, I agree that the Adobe ref carries enough weight that the book refs are not necessary. Second, the term should represent what is, in effect, the only notable form of "cultural phenomenon" connected with image editing, ie recreational or "humorous" use. If "cultural impact" is to appear in the lead, you have to accept a brief mention of the usual fora for this activity – email, contests, fark-type stuff – by which it has become popularised, somewhere in this section. Third, it's absurd to not have an image illustrating this, an entirely visual phenomenon.

As the section still seems to be a battleground, I've posted a version here as my take on what should be adopted. mikaul^talk 00:30, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I've added an alternative to this page, to include a small section for cultural impact (which needn't amount to any more than the second para in the existing disputed section) and reduce the photoshopping section to the existing first para. To reflect this (apparent, tbc) compromise on the part of DreamGuy, I've struck out the phrase "in this section" from the "not disputed" point 3.mikaul^talk 11:56, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

"The book refs are not necessary" seems like a strange reason to want to remove references that support the opening sentence. These two are there: Laurence M. Deutsch (2001). Medical Records for Attorneys. ALI-ABA., and David Geelan (2006). Undead Theories: Constructivism, Eclecticism And Research in Education. Sense Publishers. ISBN 9077874313.. The first is particularly meaningful in its description of the field of use of the term in question; the second is perhaps not as good, as it is merely using the term, albeit with an explanation of what it means. So, if it's too much, remove the second, but not the first, which is the main independent secondary source supporting the main content of the section, and supporting the point that it's NOT just the humerous and "internet kiddies" or whatever DreamGuy called the users of this term. Also, we usually do acknowledge variant forms, if they are verifiable, rather than ignore them. Dicklyon 03:36, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, if you'd been paying attention, the book references are NOT RELIABLE SOURCES for the topic, so they were removed. The part about being unnecessary explains why I don't bother to tag it with it as needed a source citation, as the Adobe ref mentions the term. If you'd bother to go read WP:RS once the link had already been given you wouldn't be so confused all the time.

Oh, and you need to stop reverting, as between me and the other comments above, it's clear that that whole bit has no support to stay in the article. You are just reverting against consensus, and against policy. You lost on Photoshop and Photoshopping and you will lose here for the exact same reasons: what you are doing goes against multiple policies here. DreamGuy 05:09, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree with DreamGuy here: a one-line mention of photographic terminology in a book called "Medical Records for Attorneys" is the perfect definition of a non-reliable source, per WP:RS. The adobe citation is more than enough. mikaul^talk 12:04, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

What is it about this source that makes you think it would be unreliable? It's a serious book with a serious section on tampering with electronic imaging data, and it is a source for the claim that this is sometimes called photoshopping. I'm OK with it if you have a better source, but the Adobe source does NOT support the claim, so we need something here. Dicklyon 22:58, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I personally like the version proposed by mikaul. It's a fair compromise, although I also support the inclusion of alternate terms as per Dicklyon's comment, even if they aren't as notable as "photoshopping." As long as they exist and are alternate terms, they should at least be mentioned to clear up any possible confusion when someone finds this article by way of "photochopping" or something and wonders what it is. Granted, someone like that would have to be fairly dense to not see the connection between the two terms, but hey, this is the Internet after all.

This sort of thing has precedent in articles such as Lop Nur. The alternate names of that lake group cannot all be that notable, but they're still mentioned as alternate names of the same thing. They exist and are verifiable. Not all article content has to be hugely notable as long as the main subject is.

Other than that, I completely agree with mikaul. There needs to be some mention of photoshopping as a cultural phenomenon, and an illustration makes any article (or section) much, much better. Of course, I don't really see the point in trimming the section down so much as long as it's verifiable and semi-notable, but that's just the inclusionist in me talking.

Alternately, if we're going by how Wikipedia isn't a dictionary, perhaps the section can link to an article on "photoshopping" (complete with alternate spellings, etc.) on Wiktionary. Would that be a good compromise? --clpo13 05:35, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your support, I hope you feel the same about the new section mentioned above. I can't agree with more neologisms and I doubt it would get consensus. Wiktionary is the perfect place for all that, good suggestion. Photochopping already redirects here; maybe shopping should be disambiguated to provide a link here; it's basically another issue but that's the way to deal with other slang terms. With good, reliable sources (I'm thinking dedicated sociological studies and the like) the cultural side of things has a home here. If it ever gets to as big as the ethical or historical sections – and it's nowhere near that now – it'll be big enough for a spinoff article. mikaul^talk 11:57, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I could live with that, although I wouldn't use quite the same wording ("frivolous pastime" seems a bit strong). --clpo13 03:55, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Agreed: I've fixed that with hobby and firmed up the opening sentence. mikaul^talk 17:46, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

As to my Wiktionary suggestion, it would appear that there is an entry on photoshop, which has much of the same information as in the photoshopping section here. Should we bother to add an interwiki link to the section? --clpo13 08:18, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Italicize photo titles?

Wikipedia:Manual of Style (titles)#Italics says to italicize the titles of "Paintings and other works of visual art ". The recent edit summarized as "these are not book or movie titles, so shouldn;t be italicized" should probably be reverted. Dicklyon 03:54, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I concur with that and the other user's reversion of it. I also agree with the last edit DreamGuy made (diff) although I strongly disagree with his unilateral action when it's more than clear that there's both an {{ActiveDiscuss}} and RfC on the issue. However it seem to follow a weak consensus here. By the same strength of consensus, and in recognition of the concession of this edit, I think it's fair to replace the image. If there's no clear desire to split this out into two sections per my userpage suggestion, I suggest we call it a day with that. mikaul^talk 07:14, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, as explained in the edit summary, italics are only used for official titles of major works of art, like books, films, magazine titles. Smaller works -- like poems, articles, short stories -- use quote marks. A painting could be considered a major work of art, but joke images certainly could not. The articles in question do not put the titles in italics, so why here? Furthermore, in neither case is the wording used in this article considered an official name of either piece, they have no titles at all, so even putting quotes there is probably more than it should have. So you are completely wrong. And the image most certainly should not go back either. DreamGuy 07:37, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I missed the section on quotation marks. On re-examining everything, I don't see why there's any argument here. They're links to articles in the encyclopedia and don't need any more than the usual hyperlinked text. The clincher is that the name of the images referred to have a different title ("god-kills-kitten.jpg" and "SharkHelicopter.jpg") to the link text. Normally I'd say "no quotes, either", but the phrase-like titles need to be distinct from the body of the text. I'd guess that was a reason for using italics in the first place.

Re: your edit summary comment on the image, I just can't understand the logic of denying an image-based topic an image-based illustration, and nor, it seems, can anyone else but you. You've presented a good enough case (IMO) for stripping out practically all descriptive text, but if anything the lack of such text reinforces the need for a descriptive image. The Fark image is way better for this purpose than any other I've seen here: it should stay. mikaul^talk 11:28, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

National Geographic and WP:UNDUE

At the very end of the photoshopping section, there is this statement:

The latter image was widely circulated as a National Geographic "Image of the Year" and was later revealed to be a hoax.

DreamGuy has removed this a couple times saying it lends undue weight to manipulated images such as the Helicopter Shark image the statement refers to. Now, I feel this bit should be included since the section talks about humor images passed through email and as actual news. One of the first things I learned in my elementary English classes was that statements like this need examples to back them up. What good is it to say edited images can be passed as news without giving any sort of example of this actually happening? The National Geographic "Image of the Year" hoax fits this perfectly. It's not lending undue weight; it's clarifying a statement already made. --clpo13 00:06, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Recent Changes/thoughts

Definition: to quote Mikaul "I agree with DreamGuy here: a one-line mention of photographic terminology in a book called "Medical Records for Attorneys" is the perfect definition of a non-reliable source, per WP:RS. The adobe citation is more than enough" Couldn't agree more. Another dodgy source.

Image:

1) What does " widely circulated mean" Among internet circles?

2) I can't help feel that if we are going to have an image to illustrate the section (leaving aside the fact there are images elsewhere) that it might be better to have one that is obviously photoshopped eg. head of x on y's body. I don't think the image says anything without knowing the story behind maybe something self evident would bring an added extra???

3) If we are talking about images that have "fooled" the press why not use the one of the explosions that that guy got sacked from reuters for? I know its not exactly appropriate for this paragraph but if the justification for the current image is that it fooled the press surely the reuters one is more notable.

4) IMO the current image should have been reinserted.

Adbusters: i don't particularly like this mag but could it be relevant?

Plus why does Jossi make changes without involving themselves in the discussion.Setting a good example? Or is it because he/she is an admin and above everyone else?

3tmx 17:17, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

The reference that Jossi chose to restore is the other one of the two we had originally, since the one I recommended was taken back out. It says "And with digital photography, there is also the possibility of photoshopping – digtally editing the representation to make it more aesthetically pleasing, or to change decisions about framing". Here, nothing would be changed if they had used "photo editing" or "photo manipulation"; they aren't really talking about the term itself, though they do clarify what they mean by it; it is evidence in support of the observation, but is not an explicit source of the statement that this term is used this way. The other ref, however, which you reject as "non-reliable" for reasons that I don't get, talks of "photo-shopping" in quotes and refers to the word itself and its use in saying "(as it is now generally known in the commercial design industry)". And it's in a very serious context, of relevant topic, in a serious book, section on digital photo manipulation. I don't understand the logic of you guys objecting to this ref. Anyway, if you find a better source, please do add it; if not, put the one real verifiable source back. Dicklyon 17:31, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

I can't vouch for anyone else, but I've clarified my objections to the medical book ref further down the page. mikaul^talk 17:02, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

By the way, the obvious typo was "4)IMO the current image should have been reinserted" which was meant to have read "not" How do you strike through previous comments?

3tmx 19:04, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

With <s></s> tags around the text to strikethrough. Also, why shouldn't the image be inserted? As mikaul has stated before, an article or section that deals primarily with an image-related phenomenon should have an image to properly illustrate it. Journalism and propaganda examples are present earlier in the article to illustrate their respective sections, so why not have a photoshopped image (made purely for fun) to illustrate the cultural uses of the term photoshopped? --clpo13 19:13, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

well i wasn't exactly suggesting we replace it with the reuters one. I was saying that all this image has going for it is that it was a hoax - i'm not sure its a typical example of the sort of use we are discussing- i'd say of all the images the shark one - obviously comped, fairly banal -illustrated this better. 3tmx 19:22, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

I think however the article is generally better than it has been and one well chosen image could be good. Would it make sense to put the inks to the shark/kitten pages under the picture, rather than in the main text?

3tmx 19:31, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Image in the Photoshopping section

From reading through the more recent comments on the talk page (especially in the RfC section), it seems that the consensus is to include an image in the section on the basis that an image-related phenomenon would best be illustrated by an image. I bring this up because DreamGuy's recent edits have removed the image, although I see no rationale for his actions, especially considering they appear to go against consensus. So would it be possible to come to an agreement over whether an image should be included and which image it should be? I mean, at least a simple discussion before deleting the image would be nice. That's assuming DreamGuy even reads this talk page any more... --clpo13 01:54, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Edit warring

I just keep reverting DreamGuy's unilateral dismantling of the section, in spite of advice to let you other guys deal with it. But that's three today, so I'll back off and let someone else handle the next time. Dicklyon 04:09, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Even if you're only doing 3 reverts in a 24-hour period, you could still be blocked for WP:3RR. Perhaps a request for comment concerning this issue can be placed? --健次(derumi)^talk 04:20, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

That was done already; see a few sections up. The result was generally positive, in that it brought in a few more moderate editors who have worked out a reasonably stable compromise. Yet DreamGuy keeps dismantling it, so I just keep reverting him. Dicklyon 04:39, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I see that now. From the message at the top of DreamGuy's talk page, it doesn't seem like he's open to discussion if he thinks he's right. If he's not amenable to a request for mediation, then I guess the next step is the Arbitration committee. --健次(derumi)^talk 04:53, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

I got a copy of photoshop a little while ago and started taking an interest in this page, even though I haven't got the knowledge of the product to make any changes yet. Therefore I have been watching this edit war, and watching each party blame the other. I suggest that no more changes are made to the article until some sort of compromise is reached "Revert once, then take it to the Talk page". This has been changed so often that I'm no longer even sure what the original was. If this continues, we should probably get this page protected, which would be a shame, since there are other good contributions going on at the same time as this warring. So I appeal to both parties to stop making these controversial changes to the article page and to discuss it and establish consensus (the process appearing to already have started). It doesn't matter which version is currently being shown, the reverts/controversial changes needs to stop. It is contrary to Wikipedia's core principles. Thanks. -- Alucard (Dr.) | Talk 09:47, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree. It takes two (or more) to edit war. As far as i can tell both Dicklyon and Dreamguy were guilty of 3rr a long while ago. Can anyone clarify wikipedia policy: my undertanding is that its better to not include something dubious/unverfied, rather than include it, even if it is flagged as substandard 3tmx 10:26, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

In general, you're correct. But Dicklyon (and all editors OTHER than DreamGuy) agree that DreamGuy's version is just wrong. Photoshopping is not photo editing using Adobe Photoshop. I suppose, under the guidelines, the entire section on phtoshopping could be removed, but that would require recreating the article photoshopping. Somebody did supply some references for the section, but I'm not sure there are any recent revisions which include them. (Disclaimer: I'm one of the editors who has been reverting DreamGuy's deletions.) — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 13:49, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

I think that right now the first step has to be stopping the edit/revert/re-revert that is going on and just inflaming the situation further. Get all the parties to stop that and things calm down. This Talk page is where it should be discussed, not in warnings on user pages or revert wars. Once that has been established, then I think we need to start having the discussion about what principles should and shouldn't be used... or getting into a specific content discussion. Arthur, you claim that there is consensus, with the exception of DreamGuy - unless my memory is failing, I think there are others than DreamGuy who feel as he does, but have not been as actively persistent (check out the above RfC, for example). Consensus is not about voting, or shouting down the one or two people that object, it is about finding a solution that everyone can live with. Right now it seems like people are taking sides and digging in rather than trying to find a solution. If consensus can not be reached (and that is always a possibility) then other methods will have to be tried. -- Alucard (Dr.) | Talk 15:36, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Such an agreement has already been reached. I have refrained from editing, and left it all up the others, except when DreamGuy violates the truce in which case I revert him. I keep asking for a suggested alternatives. If someone else will take on the role of reverting him, or will get him blocked, I'll step back and let others fine-tune the compromise that has been arrived at. Dicklyon 15:53, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Photoshopping is a widely used term and there is a variety of sources on the subject. What is the problem here? Can someone succinctly explain the dispute? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:30, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Since you have at least one user who disagrees with the conclusion vehemently enough to change the page, I would suggest that you do NOT have a true consensus -- Alucard (Dr.) | Talk 16:39, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Right, one user wants to say that photoshopping means using Adobe Photoshop; the rest don't agree. There are references that clearly support that slang use; none have been offered for the alternative. Dicklyon 20:50, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

So claims that there is a consensus are not accurate. OK, that is something. Hopefully now we can try to reach one... the discsusion below seems to be a start, along with the RfC above -- Alucard (Dr.) | Talk 20:57, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

The claim of consensus may have been insufficiently qualified. There's a consensus among those who are participating in the talk; that does not include DreamGuy. Dicklyon 21:10, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, DreamGuy has blown me off twice (diffs here and here), and has accused me of being a clueless, harassing newbie that hasn't read WP:3RR. Based on discussions on my talk page (starting here), I don't think this editor is interested in hearing anyone's opinion other than what agrees with his own. Perhaps some other editor can try a better approach? --健次(derumi)^talk 21:24, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

DreamGuy blows off everyone he thinks is wrong, especially with regards to this page. I tried talking to him, but my approach was admittedly worse than yours. He claimed I was accusing him and harassing him, much as he did with you. I have to say he's a bit arrogant, and not a few others (including some admins) would agree with me. Also, I agree with Dicklyon that a consensus has been reached on the talk page. DreamGuy hasn't posted on the talk page for a few days now and seems to only edit the article to revert Dicklyon's edits, which he thinks are plain wrong. I mean, his edits keep removing the image, something which nearly everyone active on the talk page would agree should be included (not a specific image, but some image at least). I think steps should be taken towards arbitration or something, considering how he refuses to discuss the matter any further than he already has. --clpo13 00:15, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Correction: he does NOT revert my edits. He pretty much just replaces whatever the current state of the article is with his short alternative interpretation. Then I revert his edits. Other than that, I'm not making edits, with the exception of a ref, a cn tag, a typo. Dicklyon 03:55, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

(unindent for readability) What he's doing is still considered a revert, even if done manually. He's also practicing ownership of the article, if he's not allowing any other editors to make contributions without stamping his own right over it. Hopefully he will re-join the discussion here and show some willingness to make compromises. --健次(derumi)^talk 04:33, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

My point was that it would be incorrect to think of DreamGuy as resisting changes to the section. His agenda is simply to gut it, to say that photoshopping just means using Photoshop; he doesn't care about the details otherwise, except that sometimes he tries nibbling away at the content (e.g. removing refs, removing illustration) as an alternative to taking it all out at once. Dicklyon 17:15, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

To be fair, he has raised two other distinct and percipient objections to the content of the section: reliability of sources and the undue weight it carries inthe article. Whereas the refs issue is a little petty, I can see why the article would be imbalanced with an excess of examples and explanations, relative to the other sections. Until the other sections are more substantial, I think the current weight is about right, doesn't cut any relevant corners and correctly redirects the reader to more in-depth info should they be interested. What it doesn't do is provide the coverage afforded by the old photoshopping article, which is possibly an unspoken and understandable bone of contention here. The overall main issue, that of WP:NEOLOGISM has, I think, been dealt with well enough. mikaul^talk 17:29, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Sure, there were a few good points that DreamGuy made. We have pretty much happily agreed to reduce the size and emphasis, and nobody has been arguing for more than a single illustration. I don't get the issue on the reliability of sources, however. The bone of contention that I see is DreamGuy wanting to further gut the section to say that photoshoppping just means using Adobe Photoshop. And that's a contention of one editor against the rest. I don't see anything else at issue here. Dicklyon 03:13, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Oh, sure, NOW you agree I had good points, but you were blind reverting all of them originally and denying anyone disagreed with you the whole time, even when it was multiple people here and fully explaining why on the talk page. I gavce up on the talk page as Dicklyon proved himself willing to revert even the compromise version to continue to try to slip more and more bad sources and more and more undue weight to the idea that a bunch of kids mucking around with photo software needs to be given just as much weight in this article as the professional meaning, even though there already are multiple articles about the recreational aspects located under names that are accurate, and this article already links to them. Dicklyon here is arguing from the position that he used to have an enitr article claiming that the only definition of "photoshopping" was for "kiddies making funny pics, lol, leet dude, we so cool". When it was pointed out that the professional meaning of the term has been around far long and has far wider acceptance, he kept playing games, reverted redirects, tried to link to sources with no reliability that cliamed the word meant fun and games. Now that the article is much better he's still stubbornly clinging to bad and unnecessary sources out of sheer inability to "let DreamGuy win" as he has even stated in several edit comments. This is a simple clean up matter, but even that is opposed by Dicklyon and a couple of people who had their sensibilities offended when they didn;t get their way. Hell, Arthur Ruben is still all offended form when he lost on Domain kiting and has come over here hoping he might bond with people opposing edits just to oppose them. It's all very sad and very against the Wikipedia way. DreamGuy 00:38, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Does it just boil down to these two references?

• ^ Geelan, David (2006). Undead Theories: Constructivism, Eclecticism And Research in Education. Sense Publisher, pp.146. ISBN 9-077-87431-3.

"And with digital photography, there is also the possibility of photoshopping – digtally editing the representation to make it more aesthetically pleasing, or to change decisions about framing".

• ^ Laurence M. Deutsch (2001). Medical Records for Attorneys. ALI-ABA, pp.382. ISBN 0-831-80817-9.

From DreamGuy's edit summary, he does not consider these two book sources to be reliable information. Otherwise, there's no real content change between the recent reverts — these two references just pop in and out depending on the editor. What exactly would make these two books non-reliable as citations for this phrase? "Photoshopping" is slang for the digital editing of photos. Is it just because these two books aren't about photo editing, and merely define the slang term? --健次(derumi)^talk 17:15, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

No, the references are just a part of what DreamGuy wants removed. You'll have to ask him why, but he doesn't talk much. Many more references are available; most are just examples of the use of verb forms photoshopping and photoshopped; the Medical Records book actually has a statement about the term, which seems like the preferred thing we want in a source. Dicklyon 20:47, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

For more of the relevant history, review the History of Photoshopping; DreamGuy's removals of the content start about March 23, then move to his sockpuppet User:216.165.158.7. Numerous blocks and warnings since then have had no deterrent effect. Dicklyon 21:25, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually, there was no sockpuppeting involved, and the "removals of content" in all cases were to follow policy, which Dicklyon here has fought tooth and nail. DreamGuy 00:31, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Right, I meant you were just not logged in. Please say what policy you are talking about; if you mean the one on neologisms, I've looked at that and don't agree with your interpretation, so you may want to elaborate. Dicklyon 00:39, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Sure, the references debate is a bit of a straw man and something of a casualty of edit war, but there is a need to be extra-careful here, and the source guideline is quite clear on what constitutes reliability: "the reliability of a source depends on the context: a world-renowned mathematician is not a reliable source about biology" just about describes exactly the problem with the second ref. It might describe photoshopping in context, but it doesn't carry anything like the weight an equally prestigious book on image editing might. If this was an article on the legal implications of brain surgery, you wouldn't accept a ref from Adobe on the correct terminolgy for cavernous angiomas, would you? mikaul^talk 17:02, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

The problem with these sources is that they are not reliable and they are trying to prove something that doesn;t need proving, as we already having a completely reliable source from adobe later admitting that people use the word as a verb. It's linking to nonsensical books for no good reason, as explained time and time again in previous conversation and previous edit comments. DreamGuy 00:31, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

I couldn't find where Adobe said it was being used as a verb. Can you point that out please? Dicklyon 00:39, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Click the link in the citation. It says:

The Photoshop trademark must never be used as a common verb or as a noun.
The Photoshop trademark should always be capitalized and should never be used in possessive form, or as a slang term.
It should be used as an adjective to describe the product, and should never be used in abbreviated form. The following examples illustrate these rules:

Trademarks are not verbs.

CORRECT: The image was enhanced using Adobe® Photoshop® software.

INCORRECT: The image was photoshopped.

I don't think there could be any clearer nor more authoritative confirmation of use either as a verb or a slang term. It clearly is used as such in any number of diverse books and articles; we don't need any etymological refs, because wikipedia isn't a dictionary. mikaul^talk 10:54, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Trying to establish some common ground

In my experience, "to photoshop" is used commonly as a verb to imply digitally editing a photograph. OK, I know this is WP:OR so I went to the web to see what I can find. If you Google "photoshopping", it comes up with two "sponsored links", one of which is Adobe's own site, which implies that they are aware of it being used as verb. So here are some other links, together with the relevant parts:

• Bloggerheads: "If you want to get into Photoshopping, you'll need Adobe Photoshop. You may wish to struggle along with lesser image editing tools, but Photoshop is the mutt's." This implies that you can do photoshopping with tools other than the Adobe tool, but that it is the best. The implication is that the term encompasses more than just using the Adobe tool.
• About.Com: "As digital imaging hardware and software has come down in price, the pastime of digital photo manipulation -- commonly referred to as 'photoshopping' -- has become a hugely popular hobby on the Internet." No reference to it being exclusively an Adobe activity.
• Wired Magazine: "But doctoring images -- or Photoshopping, as its practitioners call it -- is a booming online pastime for hobbyists and graphic designers..." Again, no reference to it having to use the Adobe product.
• Everything.com: "Just as "google" has transmogrified into "perform a Web search (on)", "photoshop" has come to mean "edit an electronic image using a graphics program". Witness: Person A: 'This blemish/defect/undesirable element ruins the picture!' Person B: 'Don't worry, we'll just photoshop it out.'" Implying that the term can be used to digitally enhance photos, or retouch them, not just to manipulate them into "fakes"..
• Leggnet's Digital Capture: "The word photoshop has become synonymous in the photography community and increasingly in mainstream speech with the word edit."
• Dictionary.Com: "photoshop (v.): to edit an image using a computer program. 1992, originally in ref. to Photoshop, a bitmap graphics editor trademarked and published by Adobe, released in 1990."
• Is Photoshopping your work appropriate in Fine Art photography?: "Is Photoshopping your work appropriate in Fine Art photography? Is it right to clone out Powerlines?" Again, it's use appears to be similar to enhancing or retouching.

So here is the question I have - can we agree on the following proposed "findings of fact"?:

• The term "photoshop" is in common usage as a verb.
• Its use is not specific to that of an Adobe product, but includes any changes to images.
• The use is not specific to doctoring images to make "fakes".
• There are numerous references to this usage.
• Some of these references can be considered reliable (for now it doesn't matter which).
• The use of the term in this form has been a subject of debate in Wikipedia.
• Wikipedia requires that anything that is disputed be backed up by citations from reliable sources.

Can we reach some common ground, here? If we can all agree on this, then all we have to do is to find one reference that can be considered reliable, and add it to the article. It might be an idea if you take the points and add 'Agree' or 'disagree' to each, with your sig, rather than discussing them at length (since that seems to have been done amply already!  ;-) ) -- Alucard (Dr.) | Talk 13:52, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

I presume your question is addressed to DreamGuy, since the rest of us have already converged and are in agreement with your findings. I had skipped looking for web refs and went straigiht to book refs, thinking those would be held as more "reliable", but he didn't agree there; maybe your web refs will help; see if they have reputable authors and/or editors to establish reliability. Dicklyon 15:26, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Dicklyon, my question was addressed to everybody - not singling out anyone in particular. I take it from your comment that *you* agree to the points I have made as proposed "findings of fact". I'd like to leave it up to "the rest of us" to contribute individually, rather than anyone making assumptions about what other editors may, or may not, think. I feel that that was part of the problem that got us into this edit war in the first place, in the sense that different people thought that different consensii had been reached. Please let each editor put their name to their agreement. -- Alucard (Dr.) | Talk 15:38, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Fine with me. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 17:33, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

I have no problems with any of these points, although I'd like to see "but may refer to any form of image editing" added to the third point, as it more accurately reflects the consensus. mikaul^talk 18:33, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree with all the points. Considering that photoshopping as a generic verb isn't exactly a minor neologism, there should be at least some reference to it in the section. I guess the problem is finding a source that everyone can agree is reliable and relevant. --clpo13_(talk) 19:06, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't think anything of the above is truly in debate, other than some people were trying to claim that "photoshopping" was solely for making cutesy jokes and memes, or that that usage was more important than other uses. The term, obviously, originally came from Photoshop and obviously meant photo editing, the whole shebang, anything you could do in Photoshop, and then later some people started using it for photo editing in general. But, LEGALLY, the word is only used for photoshop itself... and the problem with most references trying to prove otherwise is they say editing but do not specify with what and then people ASSUME other applications, except that Photoshop is so universal and everywhere the sources very well could be referring specifically to Photoshop only even if they don't specify it. In the field of graphic design you don't have to specify that Photoshopping means Use Photoshop, because that's obvious, and that's what all the professionals use. It's be like having to specify that when you say Windows machine you mean Microsoft Windows Windows machine and not just any machine that has a GUI featuring windows on it. The primary use of the term needs to be stressed, and neologistic uses by unreliable sources or sources using it wrong can;t be used to try to give undue weight to a claim that people really mean any program.

What the real problem here is, is that we have some people who insist that the jokesy, screwing around image editing is so extremely important that it needs a huge section here with images, when we already have other articles on that topic, and spending too much time here on it is trying to give WP:UNDUE weight to a bit of trivia. There's no reason whatsoever to spend any time here at all on that topic other than dropping a link in the See also section. As a compromise I agreed to a small section. But unfortunately Dickylon in particular insists that "photoshopping" is all about the screwing around amateur fake editing and memes and that it HAS to be here, and that he's going to keep adding it anywhere and everywhere he can because it's so important it overflows from the articles specifically about that. In the overall scheme of things when it comes to photo editing it's a wildly trivial and unimportant thing. In fact it should be assumed. When we talk about video cameras do we really need to give a long explanation that, gosh, kids use them to screw around and make (un)funny videos to share with friends, or when we talk about crayons that some kids shove them up their noses and going into detail about which colors small better? It should be assumed that for any professional topic or activity or poduct that there is some joker futzing around with it and that we don't need to spell it out in a freaking encyclopedia article devoted to a serious topic. It's nonsense like this that makes Wikipedia a laughing stock. DreamGuy 07:09, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

It should still be mentioned. Yes, legally Photoshopping refers only to editing with Adobe Photoshop. But it is still a rather common cultural phenomenon to use the word in reference to any type of photo editing. I don't think the current version of the section is giving any undue weight at all. It mentions the official and cultural uses of the word and gives a couple links and one picture. That's it. Heck, that's enough to make a stub article, but as I've been led to believe, you had a hand in demolishing that one, too. Indeed, not all cultural references to something need to be made a big deal of, but there should be at least some mention. You may think it trivial (just as so many people think X in popular culture articles are trivial), but it's not exactly a minor neologism to connect Photoshopping with any type of photo editing, especially joke stuff. It needs to be mentioned somewhere, and if it can't have its own article, this is the best place. Articles like Photoshop contest aren't suitable because they're talking about completely different concepts. I think a good deal of the editors here would agree that the current state of the article does not lend a huge amount of undue weight to Photoshopping as a generic verb.

Besides, when did anyone ever say Photoshopping was only about messing around with any image editing software? Diffs, please. --clpo13_(talk) 07:21, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Thank you to everyone who has contributed to this section so far. It's nice to see that there is so much common ground that everyone so far has agreed to. I would strongly suggest that we avoid analyzing other editor's actions right now (or who said what to whom) and try to stick to the on-topic matters of substance of the content of the page in an attempt to get this resolved. In the past, such debates on this issue have been less than productive and detract from reaching a conclusion.

So if we look at the current state of the article - most of the article talks about photo editing and the various ways in which it has been used in serious media, and then there is one section that discusses the "fakery" aspect. There are examples of both the "serious" uses and a single example of the "fake" use. The article seems to me to be of a reasonable length.

Could the various involved parties (without making changes to the article) please try to articulate here what, if any, objections they have to the *current* form of the article? Is the current section on "photoshopping" still giving undue weight to it, or is it not giving enough, or is it just right? Please restrict your points to the contents themselves, without naming editor actions. Or is the current form already an adequate compromise that satisfies everyone? -- Alucard (Dr.) | Talk 11:34, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree with some of what DreamGuy says, and I think that the section on photoshopping is about right, except that maybe the second paragraph could be either adjusted a bit or referenced to support the claim that "In popular culture, the term photoshopping is sometimes associated with montages in the form of visual jokes." This is not something that I created or hold dear; my only involvement has been to revert the deletion of the entire paragraph, which I believe does have some merit. As to the legally thing, I'm not sure I get the point; it is not illegal to misuse a trademark as slang, last time I heard, nor is it illegal to openly discuss such usage. Dicklyon 16:10, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Toward that end of tuning up the second paragraph, I have just found and put two reliable (Salon and Wired authored and edited articles) refs that specifically talk about the term Photoshopping and where it is popular. I would have no objection to others modifying the text to be more consistent with what the refs say, or to anyone adding more or different or better refs that support the point of the paragraph, or to removing anything not supported by the refs. Dicklyon 16:26, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

I have no objections whatsoever. I don't feel the section on Photoshopping gives any undue weight, considering that using the term "Photoshopping" in reference to photo editing in general isn't a minor thing. If it can't have its own article, it should at least have some mention as well as examples and support. The current version does that very well, without getting too deep into the subject. It's just right. --clpo13_(talk) 20:43, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

While this discussion is going on, *any* change to the page pertaining to issues covered in this discussion is not appropriate. We are trying to work towards a consensus here, and changing the document is not conducive to keeping the discussion going. If we can't keep ourselves from doing it, I will request a page lock while we talk. I think this is in everyone's interest. Thanks. -- Alucard (Dr.) | Talk 20:52, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

I added a couple of refs in support of a thesis sentence that I felt begged for support; take them out for now if you think that's not compatible with the ongoing process. Dicklyon 20:58, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Since I asked about a specific revision to this page and whether it could be a decent compromise, and since others have since made changes, I have reverted all changes back to that date, so that we can at least be looking at the same thing. I strongly suggest that nobody make any further changes to this until we have made every effort to get this resolved. We can not have a discussion about this if edits continue. -- Alucard (Dr.) | Talk 21:40, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

I see you've gotten the page protected. What's the use of that? Are you thinking it will bring DreamGuy to the table? Seems like a long shot. Dicklyon 05:07, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

It will at least keep him from removing the parts of the page we're currently discussing. Even if he doesn't participate in the discussion (which is likely, considering he won't let any of us notify him on his talk page), we'll be able to form a solid consensus without constant editing of the article. Of course, he and others will say this is the wrong version of the article being protected, but it'll keep things from changing or disappearing while we discuss. --clpo13_(talk) 06:37, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

What does it take to admit that we have long since reached a consensus? Nobody has argued with Alucard's points, nor has anyone objected to the current version (except that I thought it could use some references to support the thesis sentence of the second paragraph in photoshopping), with the exception of DreamGuy. So are we there yet? Any other voices? Should we wait 48 hours, or what? Dicklyon 06:49, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Maybe we should get an admin in here to see that we've come to a consensus so they can back us up to avoid DreamGuy calling us "problem editors" or somesuch. In all seriousness, I highly doubt DG is going to accept any agreement the editors here come to unless it coincides exactly with what he thinks should happen. I'm not sure what exactly is involved in enforcing a consensus, so I don't know how to proceed from here. I suppose I'll leave that up to Alucard, since he's the one spearheading this agreement discussion. Let the admins deal with DG if he continues to act against consensus. --clpo13_(talk) 07:03, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

I tend to agree that DreamGuy won't accept a consensus he doesn't agree with, but I don't think it's an admin function to acknowledge consensus. If it is, could someone point me to the appropriate guideline? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arthur Rubin (talk • contribs) 23:17, 28 July 2007

Well, I was kind of joking about the admin intervention bit, but consensus is an official Wikipedia policy, so if an editor (or editors) continually go against consensus without attempting to bring up discussion that might lead to a change in the consensus, it can be seen as edit warring and taken to the admins. --clpo13_(talk) 07:24, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

I've been thinking for some time that this should be protected. The ActiveDiscuss was clearly being ignored. Until there is a clear consensus, any changes are only going to inflame the existing edit war, whether the changes are trivial, minor, whatever. The consensus to date is becoming fairly solid, but we still need a clear decision on the "cultural impact" aspect. If, as most here seems to agree, photoshopping refers to any form of image manipulation, is it the right place to mention hobbyist use, as if this is only ever referred to as photoshopping? It seems to me if it's not mentioned, all we're left with is the fact that the term is a neologism in common use. Or am I missing something? mikaul^talk 12:46, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Another plea - can we *please* stop referring to the personalities and motives of other editors and instead discuss the article? Go and look at the current, frozen, state of the article, and critique it, based on the findings of fact that we agreed upon earlier and whether *you* feel that the article is appropriately balanced. Don't worry about what others think. The protect on the page was simply so that we have a common discussion point, it's not endorsing this version. If we agree that a change is necessary I will vigorously support that change. Since this discussion has been long, I will start a new section at the bottom of the page... -- Alucard (Dr.) | Talk 12:52, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Sorry for being a little late to this discussion. I agree with your findings of fact. I would presume that "photoshopping" is common parlance for photo editing the same as "coke" and "kleenex" are common parlance in some regions for sodas and tissue; I have to admit that I refer to what little editing I do with GIMP and PSP as such. Finding a reliable source that pertains to photo editing would help make that assertion; having that dictionary definition should really help with assertion. I would avoid citing about.com, since it tends to use Wikipedia as a source and thus would be a recursive reference. --健次(derumi)^talk 07:36, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

A good example image

This article needs an image of a person before and after; since that is really what most people think of. If someone could find or make one that would be good.TrevorLSciAct 16:22, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

agree

3tmx 16:54, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

No, I can't agree with that, it's not specific enough. The photoshopping section concerns two aspects of digital manipulation of images: first, what I've been advised to refer to as the "recreational" use of image editing programs, which this suggestion might well illustrate. Second, the "cultural impact" of this recreational activity, which IMO requires a published example of a resulting image.
The article text used to describe this activity as very basic, so it is clear that the image has been altered (often humour is derived from this fact), or in a hyper-realistic way so that the changes are seamless but now we're relying on a single image to "say" the same thing. The Fark one isn't so neat that you couldn't see the joke, nor is it so rough that it would fail to fool the viewer. Find a better one, by all means, but make it one which at least fits both criteria. mikaul^talk 16:50, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

No, the recreational aspect is supposed to be on other articles, like Photoshop contest and meme and so forth. Certainly a professional before and after editing would be fine, but be aware that some in the past here were trying to find excuses to link to their own websites on which they tried to sell image editing services, so be wary that any aded info or photo is actually professional and not an attempt to sneak advertising in. DreamGuy 00:28, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I missed this response earlier. I'm happy to go with a consensus which accepts the usage as referring to all forms of image manipulation. As such there should be a mention of recreational use, if not necessarily an image exclusive to that. This was in the back of my mind when I defended the Fark image, as there is an element of "professional" editing in it: it's a commercial site, the editing done by a paid graphic artist. However I'm now more inclined now to find something even more "generic" instead. If anyone can find an image which fits all forms of "photoshopping" I'd be amazed happily support it. I hear your concerns, about spam, but with this level of vigilance, none shall pass. mikaul^talk 18:41, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure the proposal related specifically to the photoshopping section -at least that was not my understanding 3tmx 20:51, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Ah, ok. This page has become such a single-issue discussion I assumed it related to photoshopping. Still, I'm not sure where it would fit as an illustration of anything but the sort of recreational/hobbyist use I was ranting about above. As such, it would only serve to add weight to a section which currently could do without it. In any event, wouldn't that be more of a photomontage example? Compositing is only a tiny part of photo editing / manipulation. mikaul^talk 22:09, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Rearrangement

Here I have to agree with DreamGuy, against Minestrone Soup's rearrangement that puts "photoshopping" in parallel with digital editing under types of editing. Makes no sesne. Dicklyon 00:50, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Emphatically seconded. I've already outlined in detail above the need for a thorough re-jig of this article but it simply cannot happen – nor can any constructive editing occur – while we have this ongoing unresolved dispute. At the very least, under the circumstances, editors should observe the ActiveDiscuss tag on the page (which was removed.. why? I've replaced it, for this very reason) and run any and all edits via this page first. mikaul^talk 10:25, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Archived old discussions

I have archived a number of older discussions that are inactive and unrelated to more recent discussion. Contrary to what DreamGuy would think, this is not in order to cover up any discussions agreeing with him (or disagreeing with certain editors), but to shorten the talk page and make it more manageable. None of the discussions have anything to do with the Photoshopping section, and most are many months old. They are all accessible here for anyone who wishes to verify that they are ancient, inactive, and irrelevant to the topic at hand. --clpo13_(talk) 09:30, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

You originally deleted conversations that were, in fact, completely active and relevant to current discussions. When I told you that archiving now was pointless and in bad faith there was no reason for you to do so again other than sheer stubbornness, and a glance at your edit showed no difference, but I see now that you did leave out some of your earlier improper deletion of active concerns. You shouldn't be archiving at all when someone is objecting to it, as there's no rush to do so, ever. This kind of nonsense is demonstrating bad faith in that you had to have your way and for no good reason. Well, fine, whatever, I won't revert that again, but you sure are going out of your way to purposefully work against others. DreamGuy 09:39, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Proof that you blindly revert. After you complained the first time, I left the discussions that were relevant on the talk page and removed them from the archive. The only things I archived the second (and third) times were completely unrelated. And the only person it would seem I'm working against is you, but that's through no conscious effort on my part. I wasn't in a rush to archive, but by automatically assuming I was up to no good, you really didn't help matters much. No other editor would have complained about archiving old discussions. --clpo13_(talk) 09:46, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Comments on the references to Photoshopping in the current article

This is a follow-on to the discussion above ("Trying to establish some common ground"). Please take a look at the currently-protected form of the article, with regards to two very specific things:

• Do you feel it is balanced in the weight it gives the use of the term "photoshopping"?
• Are the citations provided to support the use of the term appropriate?

Please do NOT refer to other editors or their actions during this discussion. Confine your comments to these two points, which I believe are the major sticking points currently. If there are any subject matter issues (as opposed to editor conduct or actions) that I have missed, please let me know. Hopefully we can drive this to some sort of conclusion. -- Alucard (Dr.) | Talk 12:59, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

I'll try and keep this as concise as possible

weight: fark image unnecessary (my issues outlined in earlier discussion). Have weight concern with these two sentence: "Some well known images include "Every time you masturbate... God kills a kitten" and "Helicopter Shark". The latter image was widely circulated as a National Geographic "Image of the Year" and was later revealed to be a hoax"

If we must include reference to these images i think it would be better if it wasn't in sentence form. perhaps wiki links bracketed in previous sentence e.g. (see "every time.. and kitten). The second sentence is unnecessary as there has already been a mention of PS hoaxes passing as news within the paragraph and anyway people can find out about that on the page dedicated to the topic.

citations: 8,9,10 - fine, no problems. 6&7 - we could surely come up with better references i.e.from sources that deal expressly with photographic subject matter.

3tmx 13:18, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Sugegstion: In popular culture, the term photoshopping is sometimes associated with montages in the form of visual jokes, such as those published on the fark.com website and in MAD Magazine. Images may be propagated memetically via e-mail as humor (e.g. Every time you masturbate... God kills a kitten") and have even been passed as actual news (e.g. "Helicopter Shark").[9] 3tmx 13:22, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Also we should move "See also: Photoshop contest" to below second paragraph as it fits better- otherwise it certainly gives undue weight . Sorry all that wasn't that concise after all 3tmx 13:28, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

I mostly agree. The illustration is not ideal, since it's a contest image, not a generic photoshopping image; a better illustration would be welcome. I agree about dropping the second sentence in the second paragraph, or putting reference to the pix in parens or something. I agree that ref 6 is not a very good one; but on ref 7 I disagree; it's a serious book with a serious section on digital alteration of photographs, with legal implications, and explicitly supports the idea that within this serious domain the term photoshopping is used generically (in lower case, even); it is a source the deals expressly with photograhic subject matter, as requested; there is no reason I can see to treat it as inadequate or unreliable in any way (except someone has dropped the url from the ref so readers can't easy follow up and read it now). Finally, as I said before, the thesis sentence of the second paragraph needs a reliable source; I had added two that can be brought back. Dicklyon 16:25, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Firstly, I think there's a point missing from this summary, as evidenced by the last two posts – use of images. The current image has to go (I concede) and be replaced by another, less "contesty" one. I suggest this one for now, as it's a really obvious composite. If people want to suggest the form an ideal image should take, I'd be happy to put something together myself.

Weight-wise, the first para is fine and I'd settle for anything which mentions hobbyist activity in the second. I'm not convinced that the ideal method of linking to examples has been found. Suggest adding to the section at hoax to show the Fark and Shark ones without mentioning names and leave it at that. I'd go with 3tmx's suggestion here, however, if that ends up being a popular version.

Citations are fine. As long as the Adobe one and the Wired ones are in, there are enough relevant sources for the section. If there is no better demonstration of "common currency" usage than ref 7, there's no harm having it in; its reliability as a main source may be highly questionable, but it serves the demonstration purpose well enough. A non-photo-specific ref is actually case in point and in that respect I could live with it. mikaul^talk 17:46, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm good with 3tmx's suggestion. It gives the needed information without being too wordy, just as a paper encyclopedia would put (see whatever) after something related, instead of making it into its own sentence. As for refs, I don't really care what goes on there. I kind of agree with mikaul in that having a non-photo ref might lend credence to Photoshopping's use in popular culture, but I don't feel too strongly about that. A better photo illustration might also be nice, but when I really think about it, this section doesn't really need its own image. There's nothing special about "Photoshopped" pictures that can't be shown by the other edited pictures in the article. Then again, a purely frivolous photo might help to counterbalance the more serious pictures shown in the rest of the article as well as illustrate the popular culture or hobbyist usage of Photoshop. --clpo13_(talk) 03:25, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I think the section is good as is. I don't understand what the big fuss is all about. Besides, why isn't this stuff in its own article? Seems like there's enough information to warrant at least a stub. Then we wouldn't need to worry about gunking up a more serious article. --Editmaniac 09:15, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Because of quiet legitimate WP:UNDUEconcerns. I have had questions over whether amateur photoshopping deserves a mention at all, but i'm happy to compromise and don't see big harm in one sentence. But "why isn't this stuff in its own article?" > are you seriously suggesting we give amatuer usage its own article after reading the above discussions???

3tmx 11:31, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Photoshopping used to have its own page. Please see Talk:Photoshopping for the discussion on merging it with this page. There is also the article on Photoshop contests which is wikilinked from this page. Would like a few more inputs to this discussion, then I will try to come up with a version of the page for discussion, based ont he comments made. Continued thanks to everyone for keeping this discussion on course. -- Alucard (Dr.) | Talk 12:13, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I already started one a while back, feel free to edit this one, ie remove content entirely and start again if necessary. mikaul^talk 13:03, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

It seems clear to me that this is a wholly relevant place to mention amateur use. There are multiple sources supporting a kind of "culture" of photo-manipulating hobbyists. It should be briefly mentioned, sources quoted, wikilinks provided (to photoshop contest among others) and left at that. The refs are a problem as they're rarely top-notch reliable (like ref 7) but notability is easy to prove with any Google search. Is there any reason why we shouldn't add an inline ref link to a Google search on "photoshoppping"? mikaul^talk 12:19, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, there is: WP:EL, Links normally to be avoided, point 9: "Links to search engine and aggregated results pages." -- Alucard (Dr.) | Talk 13:56, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Ok, but this may be an exception: as the guideline itself states, this should be avoided "except for a link to a page that is the subject of the article". As the proliferation of the search term is the point of this section, I'd say I fell within that criterion. Of course, if there is another way to avoid multiple refs to support a simple point, it would obviously be preferable. mikaul^talk 14:40, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I too think such a link would be a step in the wrong direction. Most of the google hits will be for uses of the term, not for articles that talk about the term, which is what are needed to support the specific claims of the section. Such references are not as easy to find, since the widespread use of photoshopping is not that widely documented; but there are enough that we can find and cite them. Dicklyon 14:56, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Are you sure there should be multiple inline refs, though? I don't have a real problem with that, it just seems a little OTT. I was thinking of the source research at the beginning of this section of the discussion and wondering how to cite all that in the text. I'd like to provide the reader access to most of those usage refs, but I'd prefer not to make such a big deal of them. mikaul^talk 16:48, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

No, not at all sure. One good ref to each claim would be fine if someone feels that more are not needed. Dicklyon 18:28, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Now that DreamGuy has said he's going on break to move for a few days, and has explicitly refused to comment here, can we unblock the page and get back to normal incremental improvements? The standard process is a lot easier than trying to negotiate every detail up front. I just want to make sure the first sentence of the second paragraph of photoshopping gets a reliable citation, and I'm open to letting others pick which one or two; and I'd like to put the url back on ref 7 and maybe get rid of ref 6. But if someone objects, I'm open to alternative refs for those points. And of course anyone else wanting to make constructive edits should do so, and react to talk if there are objections. That's how consensus evolves normally. Dicklyon 06:11, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Dicklyon, can you please show me the place where DG "explicitly" refused to comment, here? I haven't seen that yet. Since he is a stakeholder in this discussion, I would strongly suggest that we do not short-cut this procedure, and give him ample chance to respond. In the meantime we can work on a draft of what the page should look like and then push to see if we have a consensus when he returns to editing. I agree that this is not ideal, but this whole process has been a long way away from how WP should work. There is no point in unblocking it, making a bunch of changes, only to find that it gets reverted and the whole thing starts up again. The idea here was to get us to a point where we can get some sort of stability. I suggest that we keep the page protected for now. -- Alucard (Dr.) | Talk 11:20, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

OK, maybe "explicitly" was the wrong word. You asked him politely on his talk page to comment. He ignored that for a while, then added a new section saying he was going on break. I responded with a polite request to respond if he had time before break. He removed my note and left his usual summary saying I'm not allow to post on his talk page. So he saw the messages and that was all he had to say in response; that's explicit enough that we know he hasn't just forgotten or gone away without noticing. Dicklyon 15:14, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree, but it doesn't necessarily follow that he is not going to comment - there may be many other reasons why he hasn't done it yet. I suggest we go ahead and use this time to get a workable consensus version put together and when everybody involved is back, we can see how well it flies. I will give it a few more days to see if anybody else wants to contribute, then we can start building up a proposal. Sound ok to everyone? -- Alucard (Dr.) | Talk 15:45, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

It sounds like you're just stalling. The article is blocked, and doesn't need to be. Normal processes work fine, and we've got only subtle differences in the discussion of what to do. So unblock it and get on with it. When DreamGuy is back, he can let us know if he thinks we've gone in a bad direction. Dicklyon 17:10, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I guess I'm not altogether sure what the rush is, here. The discussions have been going on since at least June, and possibly back to April. They were going nowhere, and I (who have no real stake in this article, as I have stated previously) have been trying to explore if there is another way to get this resolved other than the methods which had been used up to that point. One of these is that we need to have patience and give each other enough time to think (and not knee-jerk react) - we all have lives outside of WP and these can sometimes get in the way. I don't think someone's opinion should be ignored or discounted simply because they can't log in for a few days. -- Alucard (Dr.) | Talk 17:52, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict) His refusal to discuss is implicit, but it is definitely refusal. He's removed multiple requests for comments and discussion on his talk page, complete with uncivil edit summaries and declarations of "banning" editors from his talk page (which makes no sense in a user-run community that thrives on discussion and interaction). I sincerely hope that this break isn't just an excuse to avoid participation in further discussion to be followed by willful ignorance of what is discussed during his absence. --健次(derumi)^talk 15:47, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I do not characterise it the same way - in fact, DG made a lengthy post in an above section that talked about his concerns. I feel that we can possibly reach a solution based on what everyone has posted here that might well reach a true consensus, but we have to stop questioning other people's motives and actions. Not everyone's discussion styles are as verbose as others'. Let's respect that and come up with a proposal. -- Alucard (Dr.) | Talk 16:01, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

3tmx and mikaul bring up very good points. The kitten/shark sentences should be done some other way. I think it'd be better if the citations were from more topical resources, but it does show "common currency" usage. The Wired and Adobe references definitely need to be in. --健次(derumi)^talk 15:55, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Summary of suggestions so far

Trying to summarize what others have suggested, in order to get this more concise. These are only the things I am sure of, based on the discussion - if I am have missed something, let me know, please:

Images

• Remove fark image (3tmx)
• Replace fark image with this one (mikaul)

I agreed that we can probably find a more appropriate image; I wouldn't remove the fark image until we decide on a replacement; I'm OK with the one mikaul suggests, but I bet there are other good choices, too. Dicklyon 18:57, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

This is probably a good place to post up any alternatives, if you or anyone else have any in mind. Ideally we'll have something in time for the block lifting, so no worries about removing anything. mikaul^talk 19:50, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Text

• Move "Some sample images include..." links as "e.g." in previous sentence. (3tmx)
• Move "See also: Photoshop contest" to below second paragraph (3tmx)
• Remove sentence starting "The latter image was..." (3tmx)

I agreed that the section needs some rework. Reducing it to a single sentence is probably going too far. I'd like to have someone else work on it. Dicklyon 18:57, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

(This would result in one sentence in this section)

I've been digging a bit and have a two problems with the final sentence. Firstly, neither of those examples were ever passed as "actual news" at all. The Helicopter image was an email hoax, claiming to be a GEO magazine picture of the week, but that's it. We should contrive a wikilink to this section at Hoax, which mentions both this and the Fark image in the correct context. Second, the "kitten" reference is best included by way of mention of the site that created it, B3ta. Check the article; it's big because the site is big, claiming 100,000+ subscribers. This makes it more notable than any one image and provides access to any amount of examples. The sentence should read thus:

Composite images may be propagated as e-mail hoaxes or as visual humor on dedicated websites like B3ta.

See also: Photoshop contest

mikaul^talk 21:33, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Afterthought: maybe a link to the "kitten" article could go in the "See also" section at the bottom of the page. mikaul^talk 21:33, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Have taken these (and the suggestions below) and reworked it a bit. Hopefully this is an improvement. -- Alucard (Dr.) | Talk 21:42, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Ok, that's a bit better, but I still think the "actual news" phrase is inappropriate, and the "kitten" link looks clumsy and is too trivial. Prefer the more notable B3ta link and appeal for support on this key point. mikaul^talk 22:06, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

References

• Use Wired and Adobe citations to illustrate usage of term (3tmx, mikaul, derumi)
• Add a Google link to the search result for the term (I have some issue regarding WP:EL policy on that one) (mikaul) i some concerns too 3tmx 19:38, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
• Only need one ref per claim (dicklyon)

I'm fine with more than one ref per claim; I said I'd be OK with just one, too. And I said don't remove ref 7, which is the best on-topic reliable ref to the main claim. The wired ref is good for the second paragraph's opening sentence. Dicklyon 18:57, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Both of your paragraphs' opening sentence cry out for refs. At least add cn tags if you're not sure what refs are best. These are the claims that were objected to by some, and therefore most need reliable sources. Dicklyon 18:57, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Looking again, you're right. Ref every sentence, improve the refs as and when they're sourced. Makes perfect sense to me. mikaul^talk 21:28, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Have tweaked the citations a bit - I think the Wired article covers a lot of ground. -- Alucard (Dr.) | Talk 21:42, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

---

I will take this and make those changes to the page that mikaul made available, and we'll see how we feel about it. Please see here for the proposal - for now I have left out the other image, to see if this is good. has this captured the essence of what was said? Please tell me what I missed, if anything, and whether you think this will be adequate from your point of view. -- Alucard (Dr.) | Talk 18:20, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

@Dicklyon: OK, cool. So three things, as I see it, from your comments - what would be a better image to use, if we use one? Can you suggest one? And then the need for citations in for the opening sentences. What would you suggest? Do you not feel that the Wired one cited at the end of the second paragraphi gives enough of a referecne to cover that one? Lastly, the text - what would you change in the one that is in the proposal document I liked to? -- Alucard (Dr.) | Talk 19:09, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I do not have an image to suggest, and will accept anything. As to the refs, the Wired article pretty much supports the "online fun" use of the term, but doesn't well support the more general use. The old number 7 supports the use of the term in a broader graphic arts community, as analyzed by a serious writer talking about potential alternation of medical photos and the legal implications thereof. I think it would be improper to leave the impression that the use of the term has only the narrow use, the one most objected to in certain edit summaries as "WP:UNDUE WEIGHT to a bunch of Internet kiddies thinking their games are more significant than the real topic." Dicklyon 22:58, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Point of order: can we keep discussion of specific points to the designated areas here? I'm finding it hard enough as it is to keep track of the various comments :o/ mikaul^talk 20:15, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, my fault... that's a good idea. -- Alucard (Dr.) | Talk 21:23, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

My 2 (minor) issues with the proposal is it is phrased in such a way as to potential imply "Every time..." has passed as news. I think it could look better if the gap was deleted so the sentence became part of the rest of the paragraph. 3tmx 19:44, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I would agree that the "every time..." image reference is just a distraction; I'd be happy to see it disappear. The shark image is worth talking about. Dicklyon 23:04, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Have tweaked this. -- Alucard (Dr.) | Talk 21:42, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I think it does look better with an image,be it an interim one (fark or mikuals) or not 3tmx 19:46, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

See my comments above on this. -- Alucard (Dr.) | Talk 21:42, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Why is the article still protected? Don't we have a clear consensus about what needs to be done? I'm not hearing any pushback. Dicklyon 22:44, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

We're not seeing any pushback because DreamGuy thinks the original consensus is still the right one, as he clearly stated on his talk page. He doesn't appear to think that the current version being worked on is worth bothering with, seeing as he thinks it's the "bad" version.

@Alucard: If you can get DreamGuy to accept that consensus can change, that's great, but judging by the comments he's made recently regarding this article, I doubt he's going to want to compromise with anyone. Consensus is made by editors actively participating in a discussion. If DreamGuy doesn't feel the need to get involved in the discussion, the rest of us shouldn't have to wait for his input to continue on, especially when he's made it clear (at least to me) that he doesn't much care for the new consensus. --clpo13_(talk) 17:57, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I feel that all editors should have the opportunity to contribute to the reaching of the consensus. If they choose not to contribute, after being given adequate reminders and time, then that is their choice, and the consensus will be reached without them. I suggest that we avoid discussing the motives of or guessing future actions of other editors and focus on the reaching of the consensus version of the article. As for the feeling that everything is on hold and that we need to have the page unlocked to "continue on", I guess my feeling is that we need a stable base to work from, otherwise the edit warring is just going to start up again as soon as the page is unprotected, and "continuing on" will just lead to more fighting. Each editor that has previously expressed an interest in this topic but DreamGuy has thus far contributed to trying to reach consensus. DreamGuy has been dealing with Real Life stuff, and is now only back a day or so. I have asked him on his Talk page whether he wishes to contribute. If he chooses not to, then we shall go ahead with reaching consensus of those editors that wish to. If we short-circuit the process then it will not be effective at all. -- Alucard (Dr.) | Talk 18:12, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

You absolutely CANNOT link to Google search results. This is never done anywhere on Wikipedia, and I think is expressly prohibited but I do'thave time to track it down.

The correct thing to do here is to put all the info about the amateur usage into its own article... either Photoshop contest, which already exists, or, if that's not broad enough, some new name (note: NOT Photoshopping because that'd be a repeat of the attempt to take the professional term and steal it for the amateur usage). We have multiple articles for a reason, and that's so different topics can be treated separately. It always astounds me when people in small niche amateur activities want to take over the main article. We can link to the main article when it's created, or Photoshop contest if it goes there, but there's no reason to waste space about Photo editing on any of this. When you go buy a book about Photo editing it has real info there, not lolcats or whatever. I previously would have accepted a compromise with a few short paragraphs here anda link to the main article, but since we are (yet again) discussing what was discussed previously, I am now returning back to endorsing what shold have been done some four or more months ago -- and, in fact, was, other than the blind reverts by Dicklyon, who for some reason insisted it go here and not some more suited article. DreamGuy 19:36, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

The slang term "photoshopping" is used by both professionals and amateurs, though perhaps with slightly different connotations. Would you try to separate those into two different articles? We already dispatched to idea of linking to a google search, by the way. Dicklyon 19:42, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

This is why I think two paragraphs would be the best option. The first discusses where the term "photoshopping" comes from (Adobe Photoshop) and how it can also apply to editing with other programs, while the second paragraph mentions the cultural use of the term to mean editing photos in decidedly non-professional ways. It's not giving undue weight because the use of "photoshopping" to mean manipulating photos with any program is a fairly common phenomenon, and, if needed, we can bring in sources to back that claim up. At any rate, it should be noted that use of the term "photoshopping" is not necessarily restricted to professional editing using Photoshop. --clpo13_(talk) 23:03, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

We did have such refs, but DreamGuy felt it was unneeded in the light of the Adobe ref (which I don't agree with, since the Adobe ref says what not to do, but doesn't say that people are doing it). And some other editors seem to think that the ref that I thought was most clearly professional, solid, and reliable was not. Go figure. Dicklyon 23:08, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Let's get one thing straight: this article patently does not aim to cover the same ground as a book on photo editing. That privilege belongs to Image editing, among others. This article, badly-named though it may be, concerns the "uses, cultural impact and ethical concerns [...] beyond the technical process and skills involved". This is the fundamental reason why some mention of the non-professional use of photoshop is an entirely relevant and legitimate subject here. There is no better-suited article in which to mention this in the context of the cultural impact of digital image editing. This rationale, AFAICS, was the sole basis for the earlier concession allowing "a few short paragraphs". We currently have one short paragraph, in one short section, and no-one at all is arguing for more than this, let alone trying to "take over the article" with it. mikaul^talk 23:41, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually it's two short paragraphs, and there's a pretty general agreement that one photo illustration would be good. Dicklyon 00:16, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Technically, it's just the one short one on the non-professional activities covered by the term, preceded by one short one on the neologistic side of things. And in the proposed section it's shorter still. But yeah, that's been the consensus for quite some time now, and unanimously so, I thought. mikaul^talk 00:40, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Right, I should read your words more carefully. Dicklyon 00:53, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Broken Link

Found the link: "http://www.nppa.org/professional_development/business_practices/ethics" to be broken. Just letting someone know to either change it or remove it when it's unlocked. ClosedEyesSeeing 19:55, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

For future ref (and if you were actually looking for the page) it moved here. mikaul^talk 11:41, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Ah, I see, it seems the person that added the link originally forgot to add the extension to the file. ClosedEyesSeeing 16:51, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

As I recall, the page was originally up there per the original link, sans suffix. I guess they did some housekeeping one day and a load of links to their pages went dead overnight.. mikaul^talk 19:19, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Next steps

After having seen the discussion on this page and other involved users' Talk pages, and with the various procedures that are being pursued against other editors, I no longer feel that I am in a position to be able to devote the time and the energy required to continue to try to find consensus here. I am deeply sorry that we I could not help to get this resolved, and I wish you luck in finding a workable solution. -- Alucard (Dr.) | Talk 17:40, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Why not just put up your current proposed version and get the page unprotected? Dicklyon 18:07, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Because there is no confirmed consensus. The involved parties are so badly distracted by all the procedural stuff that is going on that I doubt we will reach one and I don't have the time or energy to keep dogging everybody to work together. What you choose to do with the solution as-proposed is up to you, but without confirmed consensus I am not going to do anything. -- Alucard (Dr.) | Talk 18:14, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

OK, so unprotect the article and let others work out a consensus. The fact that one guy doesn't agree with the rest shouldn't keep the thing paralyzed forever. Dicklyon 18:18, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I did not protect the article, I requested that it be protected. You are quite at liberty to request the unprotection, if you think that is the best thing to do. The fact that one person strenuously disagrees with a proposed course of action means there is no consensus. Consensus is not a majority opinion, it's not voting. My goal was to try to achieve the consensus required in the Wikipedia policies. I have been unsuccessful and have reached the end of my resources to work at getting this resolved. If you wish to continue that work, while leaving the article protected that is up to you. If you wish to unprotect it and run the risk of just starting up the edit war again, that again is your choice. Thanks. -- Alucard (Dr.) | Talk 18:24, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Just because a mob of malcontents band together to oppose an editor following Wikipedia policies because they don't get to have their way doesn't mean those policies can be ignored. Putting the trivial amateurish nonsense in any sort of detail into this article is still a violation of WP:TRIVIA, WP:UNDUE weight and, fundamentally, WP:ENC. It's clear that this article was chosen by some people who lost consensus on other articles to group together to take a stand to try to have their way on something even if some of them have no real interest in the topic itself, and who harassed editors who refused to take their side until most of them just gave up and only I am willing to stand up to their bullying. The people insisting upon having certain content about the amateur activity certainly can have it, but it needs to be in the correct location, which sure is not an article about a professional, real world, serious topic. Photoshop contest already exists anyway, so their insistence on putting it here is just sheer bullheadedness. Next I suppose the Telescope article will have a multi-paragraph section about kids putting scopes in the sun to try to burn ants, and the different colors the ants turn into when burned, and the names the give to different types of fried ants, and how that's so mch more important than professional use. The lunatics are trying to take over the asylum... or at least the kiddies who have no business editing serious articles. Urban Dictionary and etc. are out there for just this nonsense, they should avail themselves of that option and leave Wikipedia to the people making a serious encyclopedia. DreamGuy 18:34, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

OK, fine; I guess leaving it protected for now will do. Dicklyon 18:36, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

DreamGuy, I have already explained to you why this content does not belong in Photoshop contest. That article deals with a related, but ultimately different subject. The use of Photoshop or other image editing programs is not limited to professional and contest uses. People manipulate photos for hoaxes or paraodies, both of which are just as legitimate examples of photo editing as journalism or propaganda purposes. It's a well-known cultural phenomenon that bears mention.

Personally, I think the section is fine. It mentions what the term "photoshopping" is (and how it came from Adobe Photoshop) and what it entails, and then goes on to mention that, in popular culture, it can also refer to editing with any image editing software for various reasons while giving examples of images that were manipulated for non-professional reasons. The "in popular culture" bit should be enough. As I understand it, you're a staunch defender of "x in popular culture" articles, so why does this non-professional use of "photoshopping" bug you? As I have said, Photoshop contest isn't the right article. This article is about photo manipulation, which "photoshopping" fits into perfectly.

Perhaps it would be best to ask you what exactly you find wrong with the section as it is now? If we know what you take offense with, we can address those things individually. With Alucard gone, someone needs to spearhead a compromise. We can't very well sit here with the page protected forever. --clpo13_(talk) 18:57, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, people do edit images for fun or jokes, that's not under dispute. People also have been known to stick pickles up their rectums, but that doesn't get multiple paragraphs in the Cucumber article. What is under dispute is whether it is at all notable for the overall topic of "Photo editing" and, if it is at all, whether it deserves a mere link in see also (more than enough in my opinion), a short sentence in the article pointing out that kids play around with it for fun and a link to an article that goes into more detail (whether at Photoshop contest or not... and if it's not at Photoshop contest, then that article should be merged into the larger topic, as it's oly a subset of that other broader topic and not otherwise deserving a separate article), a short paragraph, or short paragraph and image, or multiple paragraphs, or big long section that say "What, professionals use this? We could give techinical details? Who cares, Helicopter Shark rules!!!1!!! We putzing around iz more important than actual information!! ! ! !! @#". I frankly find it extremely discouraging to the future of Wikipedia as a whole how intense people want to insist upon forcing this kind of stuff into the main article as if it were more important than any and everything else that needs to be said. I'm sure in the history of Photo editing written 100 years from now that FARK contests won't even get a mention. DreamGuy 19:44, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I frankly find it discouraging that you would rather misrepresent the situation than engage in actual conversation to find a compromise. No one is advocating putting in a large section on Photoshopping. Two short paragraphs and (maybe) an image. Enough to define Photoshopping in both professional and popular usage, but not so much that it takes over the article. And certainly no one is saying this is more important than actual information. Yes, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, but it's also an encyclopedia with articles on video games, music albums, and other things that you would never find in a paper encyclopedia. As far as I can see, you're the only one calling Photoshopping unencyclopedic. Everyone else finds the topic notable enough to warrant two short paragraphs.

Anyways, I'll ask again: what specifics do you take offense with? We can't work this out if you don't tell us exactly what you don't like. Long tirades about cucumbers and "kiddies" don't help. --clpo13_(talk) 19:53, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Frankly, if you think I am misrepresenting the situation then you are just engaging in wishful thinking to try to make yourself look better. What do you mean no one is advocating putting in a large section on (ahem, don't abuse the word that way, that's not what it means) "Photoshopping"? Dickylon most certainly does, hell, he had a whole *article* that appropriated the word away from the actual professional definition to mean "kids pissing around thinking they are funny and so much more important than the real world", and then moved it over here and continuously advocated adding more, including pics and so forth. The section as it currently exists ALREADY is a large section for it's overall value and compared to the total size of the article, and you and others were blind reverting to it, so to say you aren't advocating it is a seriously break with reality.

I never advocated for a whole article on photoshopping. In fact, I led the effort that found the consensus to redirect and merge it to a small section here (in two polls I started, my expressed opinions were to "keep or merge", and to "keep the term in some article"). All I ever did in the photoshopping article was to revert vandalism/COI from Walter Humala and removal of the whole article by DreamGuy (and his sock User:216.165.158.7). That's all. If I did more than that, please point it out, instead of making up lies. It wasn't until after the content was merged here that I added so much as a reference to it. Dicklyon 19:58, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

As far as specifics go, how many times do I have to say the same thing over and over again? You saw my edits. You can see my comments above. Those are specifics. It's all there. I just got done saying that a See also link to Photoshop contest (or some other article that gets merged into if you want it slightly broader -- and NOT at "Photoshopping" as that's not what the word means) is sufficient, or that a short section of only a couple of sentences to point out what should be obvious: that, like anything else in the universe, bored kids will find a way to play with it, yeehaw, and here's a link to the main article so the kids can go read it and the people who want to know about the real topic of photo editing aren't bothered by it. DreamGuy 20:05, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I'll abuse whatever word however I wish, thank you. Now, Dicklyon was originally involved in an entire article, but, after your successful dismantling of sad article, he has settled for a small section. There is more than enough evidence on this talk page to support that. And for the last time, I have never blind reverted anyone. Your false accusations are getting tiring. And to think you wonder why there's an RfC being filed against you...

Finally, you have never outlined specifics. You have only, to my knowledge, said you simply don't like the idea that people use the term photoshopping for non-professional uses. That's your opinion and you are certainly entitled to it, but it's no way to govern an article. The use of Photoshop and other editing programs for non-professional means is notable enough to be mentioned. You claim the term photoshopping should only be used to mean editing with Photoshop, but you have never provided a source backing that up. Adobe themselves would rather people not use the word at all. But the simple fact of the matter is that word is used, in the context of manipulating images using any program for any reason, often enough to be notable. There is no other article that this content would properly fit in. Photoshopping involves photo manipulation. This article is about photo manipulation. The connection is quite clear. It would appear that I'm not the only one thinking wishfully, eh?

The bottom line here is that I'm trying to get everyone here to accept a compromise. That doesn't mean sticking to your guns when no one else agrees with you, and it certainly does not mean accusing other editors of being malcontents and trouble-makers who are simply out to get you. If you refuse to discuss this matter, then the article will simply stay protected. Now, do you want to properly discuss the matter and help come to a compromise that everyone will agree with, or would you rather just insult and accuse me again? --clpo13_(talk) 21:31, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

As a disinterested (at least in regard to photo editing) third party I don't see any significant problem with the article as is. I don't see how WP:TRIVIA, WP:UNDUE or WP:ENC apply in any significant way. I don't believe the section is too large (it could even stand some expansion). "Photoshopping" is in common use per the disputed section even in major news magazines such as TIME. VMS Mosaic 21:44, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

No, it's in common usage to mean the OVERALL activity of photo editing in general and NOT the trivial amateur activity specifically. If your knowledge of the topic is reading the disputed section and you trust the disputed section for this information for making the judge, you've just proved the undue weight as your understanding of the topic from reading the section is highly faulty. DreamGuy 16:24, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

And that's why the assertions of the section need to be backed up by solid references. We've proposed references for both the usage to refer to general image editing (presently missing from the protected version) and the more "social" usage to refer to a sort of internet/game/montage/fun activity with photos (the Wired article). If the statements in our article are not well supported by these refs, we should change them or find better refs; that would be better than just throwing out the statements and refs together based on one person's opinion. Dicklyon 17:00, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Agree that photoshopping should redirect to the paragraph. At present this paragraph should be kept on this page as opposed to moved to image editing as this page deals with the cultural . can't quiet believe i read the phrase "undue to professional usage (I paraphrase)" - the term is used professionally but i appreciate and agree that its going to be difficult to find a professional source using it. As i've stated before i have some sympathy with dreamguys concerns around undue etc but the amateur usage does appear to be a genuine (though fairly minor) subculture and one sentence doesn't do any harm if only to place the photoshop contest article in context. However i do not feel it is significant enough for much more than that and have concerns that there could be a creeping back to the point where this article stated that most people associated the term photoshop with the amatuer subculture and it had 8 or whatever pictures of pink elephants, sharks, kittens, scientists etc. Photoshop was a program developed for professional usage. 3tmx 21:30, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

3tmx 21:30, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

"Photoshopping"

We absolutely need to make sure the main article doesn't confuse people on what the term "Photoshopping" means. We just had someone try to redirect that link on Photoshop to Photoshopping which someone had incorrectly redirected to only the Photoshopping section of this article, and this article usage is nonstandard. Once again, as we've had pointed out and cleared up for months, Photoshopping means "to edit with Photoshop" or, when people are being lazy in the usage "to edit a photo with an image editor".It does NOT mean "make cutesy stupid images for entertainment purposes by bored kids and unemployed adults who need to get lives" like some people keep pushing. The Photoshopping redirect MUST go to the overall Photo editing article and NOT a subsection. We should also not put the amateur usage as the overall bulk of a section labeled "Photoshopping" as it gives WP:UNDUE weight to the idea that that's the main ot most important use of the term. It's not. It's not even close. If the playing around aspect is discussed on this page at all (which it shouldn't be, a link in See also to Photoshop contest is more than adequate) it can't be in a section called "Photoshopping," period. This is why the Photoshopping article got removed in the first place, because it was giving people the completely wrong idea about what the term means. It's a professional term for professional activities, or for overall editing, NOT the amateur Internet hobby. DreamGuy 16:21, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

"as we've had pointed out and cleared up for months" here means "as DreamGuy has been asserting for months, with no support from anyone else, and no source." Right? Dicklyon 00:00, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

You're wrong in terms of fact and that your edits are against consensus. The redirect from photoshopping should be to the #Photoshopping section of this article, but that section should be expanded. I and others have said this many times, and there has been no change in the consensus that you're wrong. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 16:36, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Hang on, this really is not about who is right and wrong. The point is that the section is quite possibly not balanced enough to achieve that.

Basically, I really don't see how DG can deny that amateur hobby use of photoshop, often referred to as "photoshopping" is not part of the set of activities often referred to as "photoshopping". Whatever: if the real WP:WEIGHT problem you have isn't the size of the section but the fact that only amateur use is mentioned, then (ironically) the best option is to insert another para between the two to the effect that "photoshopping" mainly refers to "serious use of a serious tool". I'd have no problem with something like this:

Despite this, the term "photoshopping" is used colloquially to refer to any form of digital image editing, such as retouching, compositing and color correction, carried out in the course of commercial printing and publishing.

Ok, the links and other wrinkles can be ironed out, but slip this into the slimmed-down version and it wouldn't amount to more than it was a month ago. I can't see this being a problem with any contributor here. The only alternative is complete removal, which almost certainly would be objected to. mikaul^talk 17:01, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and I'd support addition of a non-hobbyist pic of a "photoshopped" image, if that sweetens the cake enough to allow mention of what is a verifiable fact: "photoshopping" doesn't just mean professional use of image editing tools. That's what the article is basically about, other uses, ethical concerns, cultural stuff. If we were at image editing, it wouldn't get a look in. mikaul^talk 17:06, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Mick, something like that might work, but I do think we need to be very careful to stick to what is verifiable by reliable references. I wouldn't want to give undue weight to the idea that the term is used seriously and professionally, unless we find a ref that says so. The ref that I had put (selected from among many book hits) was about the legal and ethical implications of modifying medical images, written by an attorney for attorneys, so it's pretty professional, and it had a brief mention of the change in terminology, and refers to "in the commercial design industry". I had originally picked this ref to illustrate the variant spelling "photo-shopping" with the hyphen, but that got removed; probably someone can find a better ref, but nobody has proposed one yet. They're not so easy to find, since most hits are just uses of the word, not talking about the use of the word; you'd have to do your own WP:OR to say how common it is in what fields, which would then be subject to further argument. Dicklyon 17:20, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

That medical ref, in this situation (editors playing v much by the rules) is just not RS enough. Good for gen, usage, but not for comm. usage. I agree, it'll be tough to find a good ref to commercial usage, but it's got to be out there somewhere. mikaul^talk 17:49, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Several people have mentioned that that ref (here) might not be a WP:Reliable Source, but I haven't heard why. As I said, I'm very open to alternatives, but we need something to support the main thesis of the section, and this is the one I found. If it's "good for general usage" then that's all we should use it for. I just don't think we should try to make broader statements than what we have support for, esp. in a section that is subject to lots of opinion and scrutiny. You could ref lots of example uses instead, but then that would be attacked as WP:OR in support of a WP:POV, since it wouldn't also link all the places where people refer to photo editing without calling it photoshopping. It's not up to us to make the call; we need to find sources, and books by and for professionals are about as reliable as you're going to get. Dicklyon 18:00, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Why books? I'd say that was the most unlikely place, especially professional manuals full of tech-speak, to go looking for such a colloquial term. It's a toughie precisely because it won't be in any serious books, almost by definition. mikaul^talk 18:31, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

I've been in the habit of looking in books first, because they are generally more reliable than other stuff that's easy to google up. And it does appear in lots of books; but of course, I'd be happy if you have other and better sources. Dicklyon 18:35, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Finding a good illustration is complicated by copyright and fair use issues. The OJ and Martha Stewart pix have good fair use rationales where they are discussed, but might not in this section. We need an image that has been discussed specifically with respect to the "photoshopping" concept, I think, or one that someone will grant a license to. Dicklyon 17:20, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm a commercial photographer, I can easily find something if we can agree on the desired content, but one which has been the subject of a discussion on "photoshopping"? No chance! eg of one which is clearly "photoshopped" might be a comp I did for a long-defunct company, showing money being squeezed out of a sponge. Or maybe something less subtle... mikaul^talk 17:49, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict) It's not about who is right and wrong, but what is right and wrong. (And I apologize for the appearance of my comment being directed to DQ. It's related to the ideas DQ has been presenting.) If there is and should be a #Photoshopping section of this article, then photoshopping should direct to that section, rather than to the entire article. The question of whether there should be a #Photoshopping section is different. (The related question, of whether #Photoshopping should be in photo editing or image editing is also a problem.) But, I agree with mikaul that the solution is to expand the section to include professional use, rather than to refocus it or eliminate it. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 17:22, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Arthur, sorry for the barking response ;o) mikaul^talk 17:49, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

It's not really even about what's right and wrong, as that's something on which opinions will always differ. It's about what we can cite reliable sources for. That's the policy that if we would keepit foremost would lead to a resolution. Dicklyon 20:09, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Agree that photoshopping should redirect to the paragraph. At present this paragraph should be kept on this page as opposed to moved to image editing as this page deals with the cultural . can't quiet believe i read the phrase "undue to professional usage (I paraphrase)" - the term is used professionally but i appreciate and agree that its going to be difficult to find a professional source using it. As i've stated before i have some sympathy with dreamguys concerns around undue etc but the amateur usage does appear to be a genuine (though fairly minor) subculture and one sentence doesn't do any harm if only to place the photoshop contest article in context. However i do not feel it is significant enough for much more than that and have concerns that there could be a creeping back to the point where this article stated that most people associated the term photoshop with the amatuer subculture and it had 8 or whatever pictures of pink elephants, sharks, kittens, scientists etc. Photoshop was a program developed for professional usage. 3tmx 21:32, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

It's actually pretty easy to find professional sources (e.g. books) using photoshopping (here are some, e.g. this one); but as the WP:Neologism page says, "articles on neologisms frequently attempt to track the emergence and use of the term as observed in communities of interest or on the internet—without attributing these claims to reliable secondary sources. If the article is not verifiable (see Reliable sources for neologisms, below) then it constitutes analysis, synthesis and original research and consequently cannot be accepted by Wikipedia. This is true even though there may be many examples of the term in use." and "To support the use of (or an article about) a particular term we must cite reliable secondary sources such as books and papers about the term—not books and papers that use the term." And that's why I cited the refs I did; the attorney book, the Wired article, and the "Photoshopping the President" article all talk explicity about the use of photoshopping for image editing, and they comment on the communities that use it so. I continue to argue that we need to back up any statements here with reliable sources; by the way, please remind me why you thought the attorney's medical records book not reliable. Dicklyon 21:56, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

There are photo-profesional sources and non-photo-professoinal sources, that's the point. I did explain my ojections to this up the page, when specific refs were being discussed. The guideline for reliable sources almost describes that medical ref exactly when it states: "the reliability of a source depends on the context: a world-renowned mathematician is not a reliable source about biology". So a lawyer advising medical practitioners about the possible dangers of "photoshopped" evidence, even if he is talking in a professional capacity to other professionals, he's not a professional photoshopper so his statements don't qualify as reliable. It clearly gets by the RS guideline for wp:neologisms and certainly warrants a mention for demonstrable usage, but doesn't command authority by virtue of being written by "a professional". This isn't a passport application form ;o) mikaul^talk 23:25, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

I see; I didn't quite pick up on "photo-professional"; and I still can't find your comment in the section you linked above. I'm not so sure that's what we need, or likely to find. The "law-professional" ref that I found is a comment about the use of the term from outside the photo professional field, but it's still a reliable source presenting the observation or opinion of a professional. Isn't it? Dicklyon 23:53, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

By the way, which one was the photoshopping the president ref? I missed that one. mikaul^talk 23:25, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

This article. I don't recall when it was used at a ref, but I think it was at one point. Dicklyon 23:53, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

References for when Photoshopping means using Adobe Photoshop

I've been looking for references, like here, to try to source DreamGuy's contention that photoshopping more commonly means using Adobe Photoshop. I found a few books on Photoshop that mention photoshopping, but of course to find that connection in a book on Photoshop doesn't say much about how it's used. If anyone can come up with a reliable source, I think we should add this as another meaning of Photoshopping. And if anyone can find something that's more explicit about which use is more common, then of course we'd want to use that, too. So far, the only sources I can find that talk about photoshopping per se are more aligned with the current article content, but you never know what will turn up. Per WP:UNDUE, we should strive for reasonable weight on different viewpoints; I think we're not far from it, but DreamGuy disagrees, so I keep looking. Dicklyon 20:58, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Here are more potential refs. Dicklyon 21:01, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Here is one that definitely supports "using Adobe Photoshop software". But it's a blog, so not usually deemed reliable. Dicklyon 21:08, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Doesn't that read uncannily like a former version of this page???? don't think it should be a ref consequently 3tmx 00:08, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

And you are right i dont think we should be using it anyway as it is a blog. 3tmx 00:10, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. We should be seeking something better. Dicklyon 01:17, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I see now what you mean. A few of the words about MAD magazine and rebranding are clearly taken from the wikipedia photoshopping article of that date; so some of the other content probably is, too, though it's mostly written with different words. Dicklyon 20:27, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Isn't "photoshopping" just a conjugation of photoshop. Do we really need a ref for general use of the term as we have a good one for the verb photoshop? specific use/ non use may be another issue.

3tmx 11:51, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, of course it is. But Adobe says it's not be used as a verb, so if reliable sources say it is, then that's interesting to know about and include. Dicklyon 17:54, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

The scott kelby in the first link uses photoshopping. While he has produced some of the most irritating, badly written and frankly technically average guides to the program he is regarded as a professional and a PS authority. In the section he uses the term in the context of a professional dealing with a client.

3tmx 11:59, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Referencing for when "Photoshopping" means "use Adobe Photoshop"?!?!?! The word ITSELF is the reference, for crying out loud. I can't believe how farcical the attempts here to redefine basic terms into something else entirely just to promote their silly hobby with a fancy sounding name. Every time I think someone comes up with something completely nutty and ridiculous as an argument it just gets worse. Most of the references already provided over the course of the history of editing this article to "Photoshopping" were direct references to "using Adobe Photoshop (or maybe some other program that works the same way) for basic photo editing in general and NOT merely for fun and games" -- people who WANTED to believe it supported their side just saw the usage and ASSUMED it meant only what they wanted it to mean. It's just absurd. I've never seen people work so hard to twist a rather obvious meaning so thoroughly. DreamGuy 16:28, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Maybe we need to find you a newbie template about reliable sources. But now you're confusing me; I thought your position was that it just means using Adobe Photoshop; now you're saying it's OK to include some other programs that work the same way? Sounds like progress, since that's what we already have references for. So I guess I retract my suggestion that we need a ref to back up the just Adobe Photoshop point of view. Dicklyon 17:54, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Maybe you need to be banned for repeated uncivil behavior and personal attacks... But more significantly, it's inconceivable to me that anyone who knows anything about the topic of photo editing wouldn't already know about the references, and if you don't know anything about photo editing, why would you be editing here?

But for those people who don't already have a background on the topic AND aren't capable of simple Googling (and for the uninitiated, Googling is a verb that means "to use Google" -- see the similarity?), here we have:

• David Pogue of the New York Times discussing the brand name used as a verb to refer specifically to the program.
• Peachpit Press with a book called Graphic Design Portfolio-Builder: Adobe Photoshop and Adobe Illustrator Projects using Photoshop as a verb for the program
• David Blatner of MacWorld magazine talking about the verb referring only to the named software.

And so forth and so on. Those three sources alone are far more reliable sources when it comes to photo editing (remember, the topic of this article) than some stupid random mention of a garbled term you can find by trolling through the web. It's simple to look around and find these, but then it shouldn't even be necessary, based both upon common sense and how widespread it is. I suppose people whose sole exposure to the word was based upon some kid using MS Paint and erroneously calling it "Photoshopping" might not know what's up, but I would hope such people wouldn't be trying to contribute to an encyclopedia any more than some kid who saw a neighbor jokingly call his Ford Pinto a Ferrari should be editing the Ferrari article. DreamGuy 18:50, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I certainly agree that we want to avoid random unreliable web references; that's why I found book and magazine references for the points in the article. The three that you've cited are articles about Photoshop that point out the obvious, which is that the program gave rise to the verb. But they do NOT say, or even imply strongly, as far as I can tell, that that verb is NOT also used for the same thing when other software is used. Anyway, when the article is unfrozen, we should think about adding one or more of those to back up some points about the verb. Thanks for finding them. Dicklyon 19:00, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Specifically, what the three refs say is

• Such digital manipulation is so common that "Photoshop" has become a verb: "My ex-husband was on that trip, too, but I've Photoshopped him out of this shot."
• The product is now a household word and even a verb: "Let me Photoshop it to fix the color" or "Why did you Photoshop Donald Trump's head on Grandma's body?"
• Only one piece of software in the world of publishing has enough distinction to earn its own verb, and it's worth every accolade: Adobe Photoshop. / As far as I'm concerned, every picture that you scan needs to be Photoshopped. ...

All are in the context of raving about Photoshop, but none of these imply that the photoshop verb can't be applied equally if another software package is used to accomplish the task. Dicklyon 19:25, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Wait, now I'm really confused. Are we all in agreement that Photoshopping means editing with any image manipulation program (even though it was originally derived from and meant to represent editing with Adobe Photoshop)? If that's the case, why is there even an argument going on here?

Unless the argument is about what kind of editing Photoshopping represents, i.e. professional vs. amateur purposes. But again, I still don't see a problem. If Photoshopping simply means "to edit with Adobe Photoshop or possibly other image editing programs," why does it matter what kind of editing goes on with it? Anyone can Photoshop. Saying Photoshopping is for "basic photo editing in general" includes the "fun and games" part of it, as well as professional usage. That's why I think there should be mention of both professional and non-professional use. I just can't see what the problem is, considering we all appear to be in agreement. --clpo13_(talk) 19:23, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

This discussion is now sooo long it's becoming impossible to keep track of real progress. We reached this point a week ago: I suggested adding this para in between the two existing paras:

Despite this, the term "photoshopping" is used colloquially to refer to any form of digital image editing, such as retouching, compositing and color correction, carried out in the course of commercial printing and publishing.

in order to achieve exactly the professional/non-professional use balance you refer to. This was, I thought, well received. I think it should, refs notwithstanding, be enough to form a consensus around, assuming DG is satisfied with it too. Let me be more forthright: can you accept this as a compromise solution, User:DreamGuy? mikaul^talk 23:32, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Dicklyon i think its farcical that you suggest that dream guy needs a newbie template about reliable sources (which verges incidently a personal attack IMO ) when you were citing what was effectively a wiki mirror as a source yesterday. The fact that adobe have concerns over usage as a verb implys that it is used as a verb - "Adobe say it should not be used as a verb" since when do adobe control the English Language???? Scott Kelby uses in the context of a professional use - plus the Mac world & new york times indicate the word is used without specfifc bias. There we go = photoshop does not just refer to amateur use but general- end of discussion hopefully. 3tmx 21:01, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Farcical sounds about right. Obviously I was jesting about those who have posted newbie templates on his talk page when he seemed to be not getting something. I don't see what you're referring to that I've cited recently, but I have been fooled by wiki mirrors before; I'll try to be careful of that. As to the verb usage for both professional and amateur image editing, I couldn't agree more; that's why I've added references for both already. The only remaining argument, I think, is whether some sources say the verb is applicable only to editing with Adobe Photoshop itself, which is what I thought DreamGuy was saying; seems like he's backed off on that, though, so maybe we're done. Dicklyon 22:16, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Well if you were joking i apologise. The only other point would be regarding the term being used to refer to images edited without photoshop - Again the trademark concerns bely the fact that adobe are concerned about this being the case e.g. verbs like hoover, nouns like cellotape et al. Its quiet easy to see an edited image and refer to it as photoshopped making an assumption that is the program used so I'd say the term can be used colloquilly to refer to an edited image. 3tmx 08:11, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

If that's all it was, it wouldn't be worth mentioning. It's in the article only because it has been observed already and published in reliable sources that photoshopping means image editing in general, as well as is used for some more specific connotations. Dicklyon 14:47, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

As for the use of the "reliable sources" template, I don't see any evidence DreamGuy understands it or has been specifically informed of it in the past, so it does not seem inappropriate. If someone can point to a diff that shows he's been informed of it, that would be different. He clearly doesn't understand it. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 15:30, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I think he understands WP:RS just fine; there's plenty of evidence that he's at last familiar with its basics, as he frequently invokes it. But he's a bit selective in what he deems reliable, or in what verifiable means. Like he was willing to allow Abode's statement that Photoshop shouldn't be used as a verb to be used as a ref to support the statement that photoshopping is slang for image editing.

I'm beyond confused with this page. i have no idea of anyones positions anymore. 3tmx 17:05, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

The only way to tell is let people edit it an see where they go. Review that evidence and all should be clear. Dicklyon 18:01, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

If you mean unlock it, I disagree. I think that would leave us back where we started. Although we may have progressed to a modicum of agreement over WP:UNDUE, this argument over what constitutes acceptable sources is key and won't be helped by relaunching an old edit war. I'd support unlocking only when the refs issue is resolved, as it cuts to the chase of what is and isn't appropriate.

It's no surprise that no-one, AFAICS, has been able to provide a single scholarly, peer-reviewed analysis of the colloquial use of the neologism to photoshop; however, we have plenty of citeable usage of the term and a number of direct references to its widespread use as a verb, from respectable publishing houses (satisfying WP:RS) supporting all usage mentioned in the article. I mean that to refer equally to these refs [1][2] (recently provided by DreamGuy, for specific use of Photoshop) as these ones [3][4][5](for the other uses mentioned in the draft version of the article) They all carry more or less equal weight (ie. are from respectable publishers and/or authors) and therefore lend roughly equal support to each relevant point.

This is the only way we will get a lasting armistice. It's a content dispute, so we set the bar at that height and any content falling short of it is removed. Please, everyone, look (again) at those links, read them, assess them honestly against the first para of WP:RS, check them against the draft version (which I've just updated) and give your opinion below. mikaul^talk 18:44, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm happy to have any or all of those. I don't see what's wrong with the book I found (Laurence M. Deutsch (2001). Medical Records for Attorneys. ALI-ABA.), but with enough of these others it's not really necessary, so I'm fine with leaving it out, too. I don't think this has much to do with getting to an armistice or a consensus, though, since it doesn't address DreamGuy's main objection, which that photoshopping just means using Photoshop and there's nothing else to say. Dicklyon 20:01, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, he may have point. The only ref to support the "any editing software" contention is the Dictionary.com one, and even then, not explicitly so. This was, I hope, the main thrust of my suggestion: that reliable sources are the sword by which a statement lives or dies.. mikaul^talk 23:53, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Stalin

Can i propose that when the page is unlocked the stalin image is moved to "history", where it is more appropriate. The current placement of the Stalin image implys to someone looking at the page for the first time that the page deals mainly with propaganda.Maybe the currently proposed professional before and after could go in its place??? Either way I think with the stalin image less prominant the possibility of a name change to image or photo manipulation would then appear less negative and less geared towards propaganda usage.

3tmx 21:05, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree it would fit best in the history section. It would still be good if we had a good lead photo, though. And I have no objection to calling it photo manipulation; the previous move to here seems to have never been discussed, just commented on after the fact by the guy who did it. The photoshopping section probably still fits best in photo manipulation compared to other possible places. Dicklyon 21:19, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Right, I first came here to do just that (revert back to photo manipulation). I also noticed there was a lot to be done here to bring the article up to scratch, and I still think it has real potential. The ethical aspects of photo manipulation are a central theme here and a pervasive one – another good place for that medical attorney source, Dick! The negative connotations of this will have to be carefully contained, as a good deal of the article will naturally outline the abuse of image editing software for political and otherwise pernicious (and recreational) ends. One of the first things needed is agreement on a more descriptive lead section, in effect a statement of the scope the article will have, but I'm struggling to think of a lead image which conveys the idea without looking like it belongs on the more technical image editing page. I've never liked the Stalin pic there, agree about the move, but wouldn't support a purely technical "before and after" shot for the reasons I mention here. mikaul^talk 23:49, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

How about a picture of someone in the act of photo editing then? monitor graphics tablet etc Just a question of where to get the image! 3tmx 00:45, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Excellent idea. Dicklyon 01:07, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Re: mediation

Assuming there are no more unanswered points, I suggest we break from this page and take the discussion over to the mediation page to iron out the remaining creases of disagreement. I've taken the liberty of adding a paragraph to the proposed version, slimming the "popular culture" para down to balance things out (wikified the "kitten" example and weeded out a few superfluous words) which I think fits with the current state of the consensus. The new para really is begging at least one supporting ref, and I've found this one using "photoshopped" with reference to art and graphic design in a fairly highly-acclaimed book. Anyway, I've linked to this version on the mediation page and suggest we use it as the basis for a final compromise there. mikaul^talk 15:17, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Due to DreamGuy's objection, the MedCab case has been closed. I'm at a loss for what to do next since it's starting to seem like this will never be resolved. I'm looking into filing a formal mediation request, but I'm not feeling hopeful that would go anywhere, either. Also, if Dicklyon is still on for filing an ArbCom request, a formal mediation request would be redundant. --clpo13_(talk) 20:16, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, see Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_comment/DreamGuy_2#Time_to_close_this_up_and_take_it_to_RFAr. Please add yourself as a participant if you think you fit; the draft is at User:Dicklyon/RFArDreamGuy. Dicklyon 20:49, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Image illustration idea for photoshopping

Very old versions of photoshopping have some interesting images. Here's one. Dicklyon 20:29, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

I haven't had a thourough look but thought these two [[6]] were also interesting, however would need to check why removed etc. good idea Dicklyon. 3tmx 20:39, 21 August 2007 (UTC) No reason given by editor who removed them + nothing on the archived talk 3tmx 20:49, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Professional images only, per the professionalism of the article. DreamGuy 00:35, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

And just what is a professional image, DreamGuy? One made by professionals, one made for a professional purpose, or something else entirely? Your vagueness (and continued lack of proof showing the term Photoshopping to refer only to using Adobe Photoshop only for professional purposes) isn't contributing at all to this discussion. Pardon my lack of patience, but I believe I have said before that photo editing isn't restricted to professionals alone. I don't even need proof to show that to be true. (Note: before you misconstrue my comments, yet again, let it be known that I wish to include both professional and non-professional usage, not simply one or the other, as per the reality of the issue.) --clpo13_(talk) 01:22, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I think the before and after illustrates things adequately. The issue with getting 'professional' images is copyright etc. 3tmx 06:38, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Unprotected

I've been asked to unprotect the page, and I am happy to do so. I trust you all to cooperate with one another. Theresa Knott | The otter sank 20:54, 28 August 2007 (UTC)