Talk:Palestinian Jews

[untitled section]

This article has a bearing on the Arab-Israeli conflict. It relates to the movement which aims at redefining "Palestine" and "Palestinian" so that these terms refer exclusively to non-Jewish residents of Palestine (region).

Usage of the term "Palestinian Jews" has changed along with the new meaning of "Palestinians" to mean "Palestinian Arabs". --Uncle Ed 15:56, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

While I agree that Palestine as a region includes all those living within as Palestinians, the existence of the State of Israel has caused the term to be synonymous with only the Arab inhabitants of Palestine. Thus, a definition like this, while not entirely accurate due to the misconception that only Arabs are 'Palestinian', is somewhat necessary. —Aiden 23:51, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

It needs to be noted here that Jews can also be Arab. In fact, most Palestinian Jews are Arab as well as Jewish.LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 20:55, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Sometimes I think "Palestinians" = "Palestinian Arabs" = "Arabs of Palestine (region". --Uncle Ed 00:40, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

PLO point of view

copied from Palestinian People

The Palestinian National Covenant, devised by the Palestine Liberation Organization in 1968, defines Palestinians as "those Arab citizens who were living normally in Palestine up to 1947, whether they remained or were expelled" and their descendants through the male line. Article 6 states "Jews who had normally resided in Palestine until the beginning of the Zionist Invasion will be considered Palestinians."

The above is irrelevant as a definition of Palestinian Jew, no more so than the Nazi definition of Jew, or the Christian definition of Jew, etc.. The term Palestine denoted a piece of land which included Jews up until 1948, after which the Palestinian Jews were magically transformed into Israelis and Palestinian Arabs were "Arabs" until about 1967 and then "Palestinains" beginning not long after that. Also the population figures are misleading because the 5 % figure taken at a specific point of history is placed next to the creation of Israel, making it look as though Jews were five percent of Palestinians when Israel was created which no one claims is the case. 209.248.222.110 22:11, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

WP:NPOV says we represent all significant points of view on an issue, not that we begin by eliminating some based on personal prejudices. The PLO definition of who is a "Palestinian Jew' is valid and just one of many views represented in the article. You additions were worded is highly biased fashion and deleted this very relevant information. Please work on adding references for the material you insert and consider trying to "write for the enemy" so as to add neutrality to your writing. Tiamut 21:48, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Israelis and Palestinian Jews

Reverted text:

After the modern State of Israel was born, the Palestinian Jews began identifying themselves as "Israelis".

I don't understand what this means. Do you mean that

1. all Jews in Palestine began calling themselves Israelis?
2. all Jews in Palestine were granted Israeli citizenship?
3. after becoming citizens of Israel, Jews stopped calling themselves "Palestinian Jews"?

Why is the term "Palestine Jews" a problem here, and for whom is it a problem? Does the term have political overtones? If so, the political implications of the term should be discussed in the article. --Uncle Ed 18:33, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

That is not solely what was reverted. I believe your edits included the definition of Palestinian Jew according to Article 6 of Palestinian National Covenant which stated, "Jews who had normally resided in Palestine until the beginning of the Zionist Invasion will be considered Palestinians." This I objected to because of its connotations and lack of any alternative view in the article (hence systematic POV). We can define the term fine without using such POV sources in my opinion. —Aiden 01:49, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Palestinian Jews and Israelis

Cut from intro:

They are now simply identified as "Israelis" and are not distinguished from the majority of Israeli Jews resultant from the modern Zionist migrations.

This is unclear and possibly misleading. Not all Israelis are Jews, right? (See Israeli Arabs.) --Uncle Ed 18:37, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

"Not all Israelis are Jews, right?". Oh? How do you define or identify "Jew"? Jeremy Lansman (talk) 13:38, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

I believe a Jew according to Israel is anyone with a Jewish great grandmother, even if they're a Russian neo-Nazi. But the sentence is fine: it says that Palestinian Jews are now identified just as Israelis, which is true - they've all been given citizenship, of course; it doesn't imply that all Israelis are Jewish - it just says Palestinian Jews are now indistinguishable from Israeli Jews. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:58, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Use of term

Another cut:

... the term "Palestinian Jews" practically fell into disuse

I just got 55,700 English hits on a Google search for this term. In what contexts does the term no longer apply? --Uncle Ed 18:41, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

i think the point is that there arent so many jews who wish to Palestinian, and most who do are on the fringes of israeli society. as such the statement in the opening presents the situation as if there is a significant group which claims to be palestinian jeews, and there is not. and what term did you exactly search on google that you got 55,700 hits for (wich is, relatively, not so much by the way)--129.98.192.169 (talk) 19:05, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Israelis

I have changed 'virtually all identify as Israelis' to 'many' - unless you have a statistic to show that 'virtually all' i.e. 99% do, then please do not revert back. I would like to insert a {{weasel}} tag too, but it will quickly be removed. also maybe a POV Lobbuss 09:31, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

You can forget it. Instead, I suggest that you bring proof that not 'virtually all' Palestinian Jews identify as Israelis. I am getting tired of this. --Bear and Dragon 09:44, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

This is a bogus polemic article

And the proof in the pudding is the example of Uri Davis, a self-confessed anti-Zionist Jew. Whoever wrote this article might be interested to know that the term 'Palestinian Jew' does not exist in the Hebrew and Yiddish versions of this article. The term used is "HaYishuv haYashan", and that the traditional Jewish term for Jewry living in the Land of Israel was, tellingly, "The Jewish Yishuv in the Land of Israel". The Jews living in the Ottoman sanjaks corresponding to the later British Mandate of Palestine were neither called nor referred to themselves as "Palestinians". You might also like to know that the term Eretz Israel was in fact used on Mandate documents in the Hebrew language, in addition to the term 'Palestina'. This article is replete with historical revisionism, with an obvious agenda.

It is just like calling the Jerusalem Talmud 'the Palestinian Talmud', which has indeed been done, but at least has a tradition behind it in the English language.

But why should I complain? This is after all "The Free Encyclopedia".

J.D. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.68.95.65 (talk) 01:14, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

This article needs to be merged with 'Yishuv', the traditional Hebrew name for "Palestinian Jew"

'haYishuv haYehudi be'Eretz Israel', i.e. The Jewish community in the Land of Israel. That is how they called themselves, not "Palestinians".

Citation?

This was deleted today without explanation, I assume because there was no citation. "The Palestinian National Covenant in 1968 defined a Jew as a Palestinian only if their family (through the male line) had resided in Palestine until the beginning of the Zionist migrations (considered to have started in 1917). While a number of Jews fall into this category, most tend to identify as Israelis." However, it seems like a relevant point, if a citation can be found. anyone? LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 14:45, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

As far as I know, the covenant doesn't specify a year; perhaps it's 1917, perhaps it's 1892. Jayjg ^(talk) 00:21, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Baloney

During the times of the British Mandate of Palestine, all residents of the Mandate were referred to as 'Palestinian' officially. However, the Arab residents of the Mandate, who largely identified with the Arab cause, and saw themselves as having a different national identity, viewed the term "Palestinian" as a derogatory colonialist British term, designed to erase their Arab identity.[citation needed] This sentiment was especially strong during the 1930s and early 1940s, when the idea of Greater Syria was viewed positively by the Arab of the Levant, among them the Palestinian Arabs.[citation needed]

During the 30s and 40s was when many organizations started using the "Palestine" in their titles eg al-Najjada..... Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 12:21, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Agreed with Baloney

During the times of the British Mandate of Palestine, all residents of the Mandate were referred to as 'Palestinian' officially. However, the Arab residents of the Mandate, who largely identified with the Arab cause, and saw themselves as having a different national identity, viewed the term "Palestinian" as a derogatory colonialist British term, designed to erase their Arab identity.[citation needed] This sentiment was especially strong during the 1930s and early 1940s, when the idea of Greater Syria was viewed positively by the Arab of the Levant, among them the Palestinian Arabs.[citation needed]

I would strongly suggest having the above paragraph removed because of the following:

a) It is irrelevant to the topic b) There is ample evidence that suggests the contrary: That Arabs in Palestine pre 1948 saw themselves as Palestinians

Please see article on [http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Palestinian Palestinian People:

The first widespread use of "Palestinian" as an endonym to refer to the nationalist concept of a Palestinian people by the local Arabic-speaking population of Palestine began prior to the outbreak of World War I,[7] and the first demand for national independence was issued by the Syrian-Palestinian Congress on 21 September 1921.[8] After the exodus of 1948, and even more so after the exodus of 1967, the term came to signify not only a place of origin, but the sense of a shared past and future in the form of a Palestinian nation-state.[7] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sheelo81 (talk • contribs) 04:38, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Uri Davis

Uri Davis is now muslim, he converted to Islam in 2008 to marry a palestinian lady.Miss-simworld (talk) 23:15, 21 January 2010 (UTC) Using him as an example is subjective.

Using his as an example is just fine, given that he identified as a Palestinian Jew, as described by reliable sources, using his own words. It doesn't matter that he has since converted to Islam. What matters is that he identified with this identity (and may still identify that way for all we know, while also identifying as Muslim. After all, Judaism is not only a religion, right?) Tiamut^talk 09:12, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, not only the religion, because Jews are an ethnoreligious group where both components (Semitic ethnic origin and peculiar national faith) are equally important. So the moment a Jew actively renounces Judaism in favor of another religion - especially one antagonistic to the Jews like Christianity or Islam - he or she excludes themselves from the body of the nation for all intents and purposes. How such individuals "identify" doesn't matter in the slightest. 2.55.173.187 (talk) 17:17, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

And actually, *Judaism* is only a religion - the national religion of the Jews. What you are referring to here is *Jewishness*, not "Judaism". And that one is indeed comprised of both ethnic and religious components. 2.55.173.187 (talk) 17:31, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

well im not jewish so i dont so how the jews see the whole who is a jew thing but the fact is he made those statements before 2008 , its not a question of identity here but accuracy.Miss-simworld ‎ (talk) 09:14, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

If you have a reliable source that says he converted to Islam after he made those statements, we can add it provide context. But the information is an accurate representation of how he saw his identity at the time and is sourced to a reliable source, so I see no reason to remove it. Tiamut^talk 09:42, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Merge or Redirect!

Agree with Baloney. This article should either merge with or redirect to "HaYeshuv HaYehudi" (The Jewish settlement In the Land of Israel). "Palestinian Jews" is a term that quite simply does not exist in the real world (ie outside of wikipedia and the Internet) The word Palestine / Palesitinan was invented by the British in 1918 as a derogatory term and Jews never considered themselves "Palestinians", not a single source in this article (or on Google) shows proof of a Jewish Palestinian community or even a single person ever existed. This article is Historic revisionism and polemic politics. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Raisescale (talk • contribs) 06:31, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

At the time, Jews refereed to the land as Palestina פלסטינה. It wasn't considered derogatory at all. For example, see the Anglo-Palestine Bank funded in 1902. TFighterPilot (talk) 20:52, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

As a region - of course, sometimes. But not as a national marker of any kind for themselves. 2.55.173.187 (talk) 17:33, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Turning this Page into a Redirect

This article reads like a argument, people actually interested in learning about Jews in 'Palestinian' (note modern Arab connotation) land would be much better at Arab Jews.

Ds2207 (talk) 02:58, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

There's no consensus for deleting the contents of this page. Policy is, I believe, to get consensus first for such a bold action, after moving any relevant content to the merge content (see Help:Merging)

Although some people object to the use of the term "Palestinian Jew", on the grounds that terms like "Palestine" and "Palestinian" should refer only to the (hoped-for) Palestinian State, others like using the term. Moreover, it is generally accepted that some Jewish people, i.e., "Jews", do live in Palestine.

I take no sides in this issue. I just want a neutral article. If there is any aspect of the dispute which isn't covered in the article, please add it. --Uncle Ed (talk) 14:35, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

In the nicest possible way, not to offend anyone who spent time making this page, but when I look it over, I see no real idea of what is being conveyed. 'Palestinian Jew,' is a completely constructed English term, never used in the media that seems to mean different things to different people. The 'Overview' section of this article talks of the Jewish inhabitants of the ancient Philistinia region (Palestine/Israel today) under the Ottoman Empire. Thus, it gives information about the demographics and status of Jews in a historically Arab land (Note: NOT modern Palestine, and NOT belonging to the modern People known as 'Palestinians.') These concepts are elaborated on and put in better context at Arab Jews. The next section just says that when Israel was called Palestine (before its creation in 1948), its Jewish inhabitants used to be called 'Palestinian Jews.' No offense again, but quite literally, duh. The final section refers to objections over the very existence of this article/term! Jews in "modern Palestine(Israel) invariably refer to themselves as Israelis. The only example of a prominent citizen of Israel and as a self-proclaimed Palestinian Jew in the article is Uri Davis. But, upon further inspection, we learn that he is not, in fact, Jewish, but a convert to Islam. So in actuality, he is referring to his dual identification with both the (modern) Jewish and Palestinian Peoples. In conclusion, just because this article has bold-type sections and was tagged in two series boxes, there is no real NPOV information here. The limited novel information provided here would be much better at Arab Jews. I'll check back soon to again make this into a redirect. Best, Ds2207 (talk) 20:47, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for expanding on the reasons some people give when they object to the usage of the term Palestinian Jew. All of these arguments should be properly cited and added to the article. I'll be happy to cooperate with you, if you choose to do this.

But the existence of arguments from people who don't like the term is not a good editorial reason for us to get rid of an article about the people denoted by the term. So please don't go make this a redirect again, until and unless a consensus forms for this (or unless have finished merging all relevant information into Arab Jews, and we all agree there is nothing worth keeping here. --Uncle Ed (talk) 00:00, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Unlike a dictionary, in an encyclopedia does not explain words\phrases rather a specific object. If you'd look at the Turko-Iranian page for example you'd see that it simply states the different meanings of the term. That's what this page should be. Both Davis and Mer-Khamis already have articles about them. So does the Palestinian national charter and Immanuel Kent. This page could reference to these articles. TFighterPilot (talk) 17:29, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Question source

The article had this: "The British Mandate referred to Arab Palestinians and Jewish settlers from Europe alike as "Palestinians," consistent with an Orientalist view of all Jews as Eastern people. (Kalmar, Ivan Davidson & Derek Penslar. Orientalism and the Jews; Brandeis 2005)". The source can be examined in more detail here: [1] I cannot find anything like the claim appearing in this source. If anyone else can, please give a page number. Meanwhile the first part of the sentence (being true) remains with a citation requested, while the second part of the sentence (being nonsense) is gone. The British called residents of Palestine "Palestinians" because "Palestinians" is the word grammatically indicated for residents of Palestine. Zero^talk 15:30, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Incidentally, the scholarly meaning of "Palestinian Jews" seems to be missing. It is used for the Jews resident in Palestine from before the Zionist immigrations of the 1880s. Zero^talk 15:30, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Palestinian Jews and Zionism

I think that someone should shed some light on a very relevant aspect for this article (regardless of if we merge it with the Yishuv one or not): what was the attitude of Palestinian Jews (Old Yishuv) towards Zionism and the arrival of European Jews? Did they take sides in the conflict? Did any of them (perhaps the musta'arabim) identify with the Arab cause rather than the Zionist one? I had heard that Palestinian Jews had been somewhat ambivalent and divided about the conflict, but I'm having trouble finding sources about it. Any help? Froy1100 (talk) 22:18, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

The attempt to drive an "ethnic" wedge between the Jews of the Old Yishuv and the so-called "European Jews" is as pathetic as it is ahistorical and contrived. A large number of pre-Zionism Jews in Ottoman Palestine were just as Ashkenazi as the Zionism-driven new arrivals (what you call here "European"). 2.55.173.187 (talk) 17:40, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

good article

more photos should be added. thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.218.145.251 (talk) 15:35, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

merge with Yishuv

please can we merge this with Yishuv. Obviously the merged article would retain all the info and explain the different definitions. There are just way too many short articles with the same info in. Halon8 (talk) 22:07, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

My apologies

I thought it was fairly common knowledge that the New Yishuv were predominantly ethnic Jews, who DO have a common Middle Eastern/Israelite heritage as proven by genetics, hence my "returning from the diaspora" edit. The wording of this article paints us as complete foreigners with no cultural or ancestral ties to Israel whatsoever, when this is clearly not true and is routinely used to say that we are "fake" Jews. Second, I don't know how to source material, although I do have sources that I can link to. Either way, I did not post anything that was factually untrue, unless we are also referring to Ethiopian and Indian Jews. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.248.98.23 (talk) 18:38, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

That might be true. I guess I didn't make it clear enough in my edit summary. The problem is that the phrase you wikilinked it to Ethnic Jews, redirects to Who is a Jew?, which I don't think could possibly be what you meant. Am I missing something?— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 18:53, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Well yeah, as you can see I'm not very good at using this site. I wanted to link to Genetic studies on Jews. Perhaps a series of links to peer reviewed papers on Jewish genetics could help solve this issue. Problem is, I don't know how to cite sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.248.98.23 (talk) 16:35, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

It can be a little tricky. I don't know if you want to register or not, but if you do you get a sandbox page to practice the syntax in until you can get it to work. If you don't want to register, you're welcome to use this: User:Alf.laylah.wa.laylah/sandbox/69.248.98.23 to mess around in.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 16:59, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Jews in jericho, and another thing

Please check these 3 sources downstairs (taken from the article "Jericho"), who tells about jewish life in jericho. maybe some data could be added upon them. i think this data will do good for the article. btw, how about starting a gallery that shows the jewish life in the land of palestine before israel was established?, i am sure that each of us could gather lot's of detailed photos here from wikipedia, and maybe even contribute any.

1. . Hadawi, 1970, p.57
2. . http://www.jewishjericho.org.il/english/
3. . http://www.jpost.com/Features/InThespotlight/Article.aspx?id=254558 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.182.150.47 (talk) 02:16, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Always jews in palestine

Unless I'm mistaken there have always been Jews, with possible brief interludes for various calamities like the Crusades, in Syria Palestine. This is at least what I'm gathering and don't see any contradiction of it here. There's a simpleminded picture of Hadrian or similar having forcibly expelled all of them from the region never to return until modern Zionism. I think the article should make clearer that never happened or to what extent it did. 72.228.190.243 (talk) 03:48, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Denisarona changed my change of the percentage of Jews worldwide. 14/7000 is 0.002 but 14 is not 0.002 percent of 7000, it's .2 percent. That's why I first reverted my change then made it text instead of numbers. What's there ATM is flat wrong, as was my intermediate edit. 72.228.190.243 (talk) 20:00, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

Palestinian Jews and the Zionists

I am sorry to say this article about the Palestinian Jews do not speaks for Palestinian Jews. In fact there are Jews that still considered themselves Palestinians, not all Palestinian Jews decided to call themselves Israeli Jews.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/the-twisted-logic-of-the-jewish-historic-right-to-israel-1.6654428 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.124.205.250 (talk) 05:55, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Ben Zacai photo

The photo of the Ben Zacai synagogue cannot refer to the moshav linked to. 2600:387:F:4910:0:0:0:5 (talk) 22:00, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 August 2023

change "Algerian Jewish" to "Algerian Jewish" Frans45 (talk) 07:05, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, not great. Fixed. Thanks. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:28, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 27 March 2024

Change: Palestinian Jews or Jewish Palestinians were the Jewish inhabitants of the Palestine region (known in Hebrew as Eretz Yisrael, lit. 'Land of Israel') prior to the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948. Change to this: Palestinian Jews or Jewish Palestinians were the Jewish inhabitants of Palestine prior to 1948.

The claim being made that Palestine was called the Land of Israel in Hebrew is fictional. AdrianaMariaFischetti (talk) 02:13, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Shadow311 (talk) 15:12, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Well, there is simply no "Palestine" in native Hebrew, at least before 1917. There's only פלשת, "Philistia". And no Jew in his or her right mind would ever call the land "Philistia" nor refer to themselves as "Philistine". "Palaestina" is a Latin word derived from פלשת (Pleshet), and it's also originally an adjective for the word Syria rather than a proper noun in its own right. "Syria Palaestina" means "Philistine Syria" which is an intentional Roman misnomer. Philistia occupied only a very limited part of the land that came to be referred to as The Land of Israel in Hebrew tradition. 2.55.173.187 (talk) 17:49, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 15 July 2024

In the article, in the Historical overview, in the second paragraph it states "...in Palestine in the 19th century, Jewish pilgrims and European Christian colonial projects attracted large numbers of Ashkenazi immigrants from Eastern Europe and Sephardic groups from Bulgaria, Turkey and North Africa."

In looking at the source material (citation 5: ) it states "In Palestine, Jewish pilgrimage and European Christian colonial projects (mostly the Templars in the latter category) in the late nineteenth century brought a large number of Ashkenazi immigrants from Eastern Europe and Sephardic groups from Bulgaria, Turkey and North Africa."

Could the parenthetical be added into that area, like it is in the original source? It would make the original author's intentions in that sentence more clear.

This could read as "...in Palestine in the 19th century, Jewish pilgrims and European Christian colonial projects (mostly the Templars in the latter category) attracted large numbers of Ashkenazi immigrants from Eastern Europe and Sephardic groups from Bulgaria, Turkey and North Africa.

Thank you for your consideration! Socialtool (talk) 04:18, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

References

 Done 𝚈𝚘𝚟𝚝 (𝚝𝚊𝚕𝚔𝚟𝚝) 17:03, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Inaccurate sourcing

"Yaakov Meir (born in 1856 in Jerusalem), the first Sephardic Chief Rabbi appointed in Mandatory Palestine, preferred not to use the term Palestinian Jew due to his Zionist affiliations. He spoke fluent Hebrew and encouraged the construction of new Jewish quarters of Jerusalem as well as the re-establishment of an Independent Israeli Jewish State."

The source cited does not mention Yaakov Meir's supposed identity preference. Yaakov Meir (spelled Jacob Meir) in the source, is only mentioned once in the book, on page 143, where it simply states that he was sympathetic to Zionism (when he was the Chief Rabbi of Salonica).

https://books.google.ie/books?redir_esc=y&id=iv1DADhI6h4C&q=Yaacov+Meir#v=onepage&q=Jacob%20Meir&f=false Gamalny (talk) 21:26, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

I confirmed this and removed the text. It can only go back if a source explicitly confirming the text is found. This is unlikely because the idea that sympathy to Zionism meant avoiding the word "Palestine" is utterly false. In fact the early Zionists always called it Palestine. The minutes of the Zionist congresses use "Palästina" hundreds of times and "Eretz Israel" hardly ever. Zero^talk 23:54, 25 December 2024 (UTC)