Talk:Nosferatu

Plot and improvements

Hi, I wrote a fairly long version of the plot of the movie and linked to the pictures on Commons. I think the reference that the movie does not follow at all time the Dracula book is not enough. My style in written English is neither polished nor always comprehensible, so, feel free to change. Also, I would propose to make the Nosferatu#Cultural references section into an independent article, as there are so many of them and I believe the article should focus on the movie itself.
Comments? USferdinand 01:39, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree with your proposal. I've recently worked on helping create Nikola Tesla in popular culture, Thomas Edison in popular culture and Mark Twain in popular culture and have been encouraging the creation of other similar entries. Sections of main entries focusing on pop culture references can unbalance the entry and make editors 'nervous' and, where the content allows (as it does here), it seems wise to split it off and link through using Template:Main. So basically I heartily agree and will help in any capacity I can. I'd suggest something like: Nosferatu in popular culture which follows the general format, in particular the Dracula in popular culture entry. (Emperor 02:03, 9 February 2007 (UTC))

this needs expansion:

"Hours later, Orlok piles up coffins on a coach and climbs into the last one before the coach departs; Hutter rushes home after learning of this..."

His "rushing home" includes escaping from his room via torn bedsheets fashioned into a rope, collapsing, found by peasants and taken to a hospital where he resides for long enough to send a letter home to his wife (which is displayed in screen titles) before finally setting off for home. Thats not exactly what i call "rushing home". Deliusfan (talk) 21:55, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

removed plot tag Biggus Dictus (talk) 17:58, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

anti-Semitism/NPOV tag

Shouldn't there be mention of anti-Semitism? The fact this movie is "Clean"-there's controversy, as any German Cinema expert would tell you. This movie has absolutely grotesque stereotypes. It might still be a good movie, a classic even, but searching the internet, as well as looking through various textbooks...this movie is overtly anti-Jewish. The only reason its not seen that way is no one involved making it seemed to point it out.

I'm restoring the tag until there's some mention of the stereotypes in this movie.66.24.35.55 (talk) 03:42, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

If you think the anti-semitism issue is significant enough for an encyclopedia article, and you can provide sources, write it up. The article currently takes no position either way on whether the film is anti-Semitic, so there is no POV issue.

However, if the filmmaker made Orlock look disgusting, and other Germans have used similar features to show Jews as disgusting, that doesn't really indicate much more than a shared aesthetics. WillOakland (talk) 06:37, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

- I don't understand, under what precept is Orlok considered Jewish? He's not even human, and does not even look human- and there is never any mention of him being even slightly Jewish? Someone explain this to me, because the anti-semetic claims seem random to me at this point. 142.68.222.21 (talk) 12:59, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

How utterly pathetic. Still blamming all Germans for the crimes of a few, eh? Shit, now you're blamming Germans before the Nazis even came to power.

Count Orlok is not Jewish, nor was Schrek. He has no "Jewish" features and nothing, throughout the entirety of the movie, alluded to (subtely or otherwise) or presented any sort of criticism or allegory to Judaism or Jews.

That OTHERS who were ACTUALLY anti-semitic decided to degrade Jews by dehumanising them into rat like creatures or ugly monsters has NO bearing, whatsoever, on ugly monsters or rat/animal featured creatures who are simply being portrayed as just that. Creatures.

You are just are moronic, ignorant and racist as those who used Nosferatu as paralells for hating Jews. Get out. 60.230.201.56 (talk) 05:29, 9 March 2009 (UTC) Harlequin

I have for years heard that the film is considered anti-Semitic, and while I don't follow the idea, discussion of it doesn't seem out-of-bounds in an encyclopedia article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.9.50.240 (talk) 14:11, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

My, "harlequin", you seem very ... excitable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.9.50.240 (talk) 02:57, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

The 1997 Propellerheads song "History Repeating", is a good reminder to learn from history, rather than ignore it, and that includes an awareness of and a respectful appreciation that others may feel rather differently about any film or other cultural artifact than we do. The original poster is quite correct to raise this issue of possible anti-semitism in the 1922 film Nosferatu, especially as very current white supremacist sites use Nosferatu for their own hateful purposes (http://www.stormfront.org/forum/t169895/). Reading many comments to questions raised in forums, one can see that hateful speech is also today a very common response to even the most sensible and mildly posed queries. I too love old movies, as they are part of our shared history, and I am loathe to see the past in anachronistic terms, but even textbooks require some revision as we evolve and develop greater understanding about the world around us.

It is common knowledge now that Murnau and his production company, Prana, were not saints - they attempted to get out of paying Mrs. Bram Stoker rights to the novel, then declared bankruptcy, resulting in a court order to burn all copies of the film, which they clearly ignored. There is also plenty of literature on the topic of possible implicit anti-semitism in Nosferatu, or referencing it, ie. Horror Film: Creating and Marketing Fear (ed. Steffen Hantke, Univ. Press Mississippi, 2009; p.23-34, "Imaging the Abject" Claire Sisco King). Alex Karembelas, in her Tufts MA thesis wrote that: " Although ostensibly “an account of the Great Death in Wisborg” of 1838, the story of Nosferatu is one which speaks to issues of its own time.

In the figure of Nosferatu especially, it is possible to see shadows of the visual and conceptual trends in Weimar era anti-Semitism. Although the Nosferatu itself is not anti-Semitic, there are parallels between the character of Nosferatu, who is the very essence of the malevolent, foreign ‘other,’ and the figure of the Jew in anti-Semitic rhetoric. Nosferatu plays on the same cultural fears and utilizes the same techniques of representation that underlie contemporary anti-Semitic rhetoric" (http://www.excollege.tufts.edu/documents/stuWork2010FallKarambelas.pdf, p.1). Patrick Colm Hogan (Professor, Department of English, Program in Comparative Literature and Cultural Studies, and Program in Cognitive Science, University of Connecticut, Storrs) wrote in his study of the film (http://www.manchesteruniversitypress.co.uk/uploads/docs/FS808.pdf): "Nationalist feeling is bound up with narrative structure in precise and consequential ways...F. W.Murnau’s 1922 Nosferatu, a Symphony of Horror was a narrative of this sort. In conjunction with other films, stories from novels and political speeches, anecdotes from ordinary speech, and so on, it helped to prepare the way for the purgative sacrificial nationalism that took on such virulent form in the Nazi period (Hogan, p.2). By 1922 when Nosferatu was made, according to Wikipedia's own timeline of Nazism (http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Early_timeline_of_Nazism#1922 and http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Nazi_Party), the first Hitler Youths were being formed and "during 1921 and 1922, the Nazi Party grew significantly".

Films then, as today, are not made in a vacuum - filmmakers, producers, actors, distributors, cinemas etc - all react to and play to the zeitgeist. All the critics of the film quoted here state very categorically that neither Murnau nor his scriptwriter Henrik Galeen appear to have been explicitly ant-semitic, but they were both men of their times, with many years of relating and reacting to certain signs and symbolism which, despite our best efforts at control, filter subconsciously into any creative or productive project. As a filmmaker myself, I know that filmmaking is also a serious money-making business, involving many many decisions makers - any one of which can shape the film according to their particular goals. As Hogan notes further, "Existing prototypes (in this case, stereotypes), defined by high connection strengths among nodes (e.g., among the nodes for Jewish, Eastern European, and a range ofparticular physical features), lead writers and directors to choose the properties of characters (e.g., properties of their physical appearance) in certain ways.

Not only is intent not required, in many cases the effect is facilitated by the absence of self-consciousness about the implicit links..(that) helped to prepare ordinary Germans for the Holocaust" (Hogan, p.96) Today, though many might argue that prime-time TV is full of negative stereotypes, we do have certain societal and legal restrictions that ensure that mass entertainment stays within certain boundaries of commonly shared values. But in 1920's Germany life was very very different to now. Windows were already being smashed as Hitler's speeches found thousands of receptive ears among the unemployed, conservative and less educated segments of society."Mein Kampf" was written just 3 years after the release of the film, but even before that, many people already owned and circulated copies of the faked highly anti-semitic pamphlet "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion", published as early as 1897 (http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion). Not just in Germany - I found a copy amongst the papers of a recently deceased Dutch aristocratic colonial bank representative, and many found their way to the UK, the US, France etc. Whether or not one feels that Nosferatu should be revised is on some level based on one's own current perspective on the issue of anti-semitism. That anti-semitism still exists is unquestionable, along with many other -isms that are equally indecent, ignorant, and inhumane. What one cannot question is the facts relating to time in which the film was made, and how it later played a role in helping to propogandise attacks on fellow humans that resulted in the burning and gassing of small children for no other reason than being born to parents with a different religion.

The American skinhead website www.stormfront.org's very current anti-semitic use of Nosferatu should serve as a cold shower to those who may believe this topic no longer has any validity when taking part in an academic discussion of old movies. What would our cultural landscape look like without past debates on the representations of certain human groups and other symbolism in critically appraised films such as Birth of a Nation, Triumph of the Will, and even Gone with the Wind? We live today in a time when anger over unemployment, access to education and fear of both government within the country and foreigners outside of it is rampant. The sad fact, despite the "trolls" who love to drag the level of discourse down to the lowest level at every chance, is that talk is truly cheap - broken bones, bombed houses and hate-filled memories cost us all a lot. We require now. just as at any time in history, smart people with a good sense of history and culture to ensure that our signs and symbols do not point us in the wrong direction once more. History keeps repeating (----)— Preceding unsigned comment added by Citybrit (talk • contribs)

[Note: I have somewhat randomly inserted paragraph breaks in the comment above. Drmies (talk) 02:12, 24 August 2018 (UTC)]

Smart poster above me. I too agree that the ties to antisemitism are worthy of mention, because first five google hits on "does nosferatu look jewish?". Especially https://www.bh.org.il/blog-items/myth-vampire-jew-blood-libels/, but I think that one left out three elements: the rats, Knock the Realtor, and the mass psychology of Fear of The Other (esp immigrants). Lugosi wears a kinda "Jewish Star" in the remake. Anyway, Knock can read mystical looking gibberish... Hebrew? Homoncupuss (talk) 02:08, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

Antisemites do not, in fact, have a monopoly on 1920s horror aesthetic - unless you're seriously suggesting that skinheads have a point that Jews look like Nosferatu, in which case that sounds like a you problem. All I see above are extremely dodgy assertions regarding modern skinheads, and ideological opinionating that allegations of antisemitism do not require intent or, frankly anything other than extremely tenuous circumstantial evidence which could be better explained by the damn source material. If you can tie the production crew or company to antisemitism, then you have a tenable link to actual antisemitism. The fact that the poster above seems to think bare assertions of antisemitism is intelligent or worthy of serious historical consideration is rather disturbing. 2A00:23C5:F31A:1401:41E8:F8DB:3550:CDD0 (talk) 11:57, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

Modern *neo-Nazi* skinheads. danzig138 (talk) 09:42, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

SpongeBob SquarePants reference

SB references Count Orlok in a 2002 episode, but I can't find a quality citation that isn't IMDB or a wikia site. Can anyone help?

It's a well known episode of a wildly popular animated show, not some obscure reference. I would say that qualifies as popular culture.

104.63.205.182 (talk) 18:51, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

Season 2, episode 16a Graveyard Shift. Aired 2002. Deliusfan (talk) 21:51, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Brenton films and other clean-up

This article is in a bit of a need of a refresh. I count 22 sources to Brentonfilms, which appears to be a silent film fan blog, which fails WP:SPS (self-published material such as books, patents, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, personal or group blogs" are largely not acceptable as sources.). There are several trivial mentions of Nosferatu or Count Orlok being referenced or named, or used in various forms of media either out sources, or just citing the content itself. This fails MOS:TRIVIA as " An article should not contain a section with a list of miscellaneous information. It is better to present things in an organized way.". The citation format is inconsistent throughout and could use some reformatting to clarify some details.

I've slowly been working on re-drafting some sections for clarity, better sources, and other content on my own sandbox. I'll ping some editors who are active and worked diligently on this article when Its closer for presentation, but comments are welcome in the meantime. It would be great to get this in an up and running shape before the Eggers remake comes out.Andrzejbanas (talk) 18:10, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Possible FA or GA

Hi, I've been reading the article and I think it may have potential for FA or GA. While the state is a bit deplorable, if it is translated from the German Wikipedia it could be much better. However, I will give my comments here to improve the article. First, while the article has reviews from professional critics such as Roger Ebert, it would be good to include more contemporary reviews such as Variety, The New York Times, Los Angeles Times, among others. Second, it would be good to add a "Legacy" section to see the impact the film generated. And lastly, to expand the article with more sections and complement the existing ones to make the topic more complete. So I call on the user @Andrzejbanas: to see what they think about the idea. 181.204.42.146 (talk) 18:26, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm calling on user @Andrzejbanas: again to see what he thinks about the idea. 181.204.42.146 (talk) 20:02, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Hi! Sorry, seemed to have missed the first ping. I'm a bit ahead of you and have been tackling that earlier last month. Still have some ways to go, but it's going well I think. You can see samples here. Andrzejbanas (talk) 21:35, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Looking over the article, it is a significant improvement of its original state. That being said, there are still things that need to be fleshed out like the production section and whatnot. Paleface Jack (talk) 21:15, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

@Andrzejbanas: I've watched it and it's going great, but I have a few suggestions: first, there's no mention of Roger Ebert's review, Vatican and Empire, which is in the main article. The other thing is that when it mentions his appearance on SpongeBob SquarePants, he doesn't say when he first appeared, which was in the episode "Graveyard Shift" here are some sources to back him up: [1] [2]. That would be it overall, it's going well, I wish you luck in completing it. 181.204.42.146 (talk) 18:21, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks! Yes, I plan on including Ebert's review, the retrospective reviews and initial reviews are in no way complete. I might brush up some of the production as well. As for the spongebob thing, I'm on the fence about it. We have a seperate article for Count Orlok. I'm not sure how much of that article isn't just going to re-purpose material from the film. As the spongebob Nosferatu does show up quite a bit and this is a character they call "Nosferatu" not Count Orlok, or Dracula, I'm a bit confused on if we should put attention on it here or there. Orlok's a weird character as the imagery of him is strong in popular culture, but is it enough to have a seperate article from Nosferatu that won't be pretty much a re-iteration of whats in this article already? Andrzejbanas (talk) 18:43, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

@Andrzejbanas: So in this case it would be better to simply say that the character appears in the series since the episode "Graveyard Shift", or on the contrary leave it as is, tell me what you think of the idea. 181.204.42.146 (talk) 21:39, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Personally, I don't think it's that important on the debut of the character. This isn't an article (nor is the Count Orlok one) and in-depth article about the SpongeBob reoccuring character. the reason it's brought up in this or that article per the source is to show the longevity of the character, not be a brief bio about them.Andrzejbanas (talk) 11:12, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

@Andrzejbanas: Well, in this case it is better to leave it like that. So I wish you luck with the article. 181.204.42.146 (talk) 18:48, 18 November 2024 (UTC)