Talk:Northeastern Ukraine campaign

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Eastern Ukraine offensive which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 21:52, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

Original Research, lack of sources, repeated events.

The article suffers from Original Research, lack of sources and repeated entries. Some days ago errased the duplicated text of 70 Ukrainian servicemen killed from 28 February and 1 March. Also the fact that some attacks and encirclements are claimed without source to later state the cities and towns are captured is another issue. Instead look for other events and reports that improve the article with a wider scope not only the same cities. The article was a Circular timeline to say the best.Mr.User200 (talk) 12:38, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

I'm sure that we're all doing our best in a rapidly changing situation. Sometimes things that look like repetition are just updates on different days. Laurel Lodged (talk) 16:45, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

Battle of Kharkiv

To which theatre of war does this battle belong? To the Eastern Ukraine offensive or the Northeastern Ukraine offensive? Laurel Lodged (talk) 20:37, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

It seems that it is in Northeastern theatre. Don't know who decided this though. Laurel Lodged (talk) 10:27, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

Laurel Lodged, action in Kharkiv is separate from action in the Donbas, so thus northeast. All of this is subject to change and will likely change in the future. Example from Reuters [1]. Sorry for the late reply. Curbon7 (talk) 07:56, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Laurel Lodged & Curbon7. Looking at the map (areas of focus), it makes more sense to connect Kharkiv to the eastern offensive or even to see it as a separate offensive area. Also some units, for example the 20th Guards Combined Arms Army, are active in both Kharkiv and the Donbass. As of now, nothing with the Kharkiv battles has anything to do with main focus areas in the northeast (Sumy and Chernihiv). Thoughts? KajMetz (talk) 20:40, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

If the Northeastern offensive is all but over, and fighting still continues in Kharkiv, the perhaps transfer to the Eastern offensive. Laurel Lodged (talk) 08:59, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

THats what I'm saying. The goal of the Eastern offensive is to capture the Donbas, and Kharkiv is arguably part of that. Its a Russian speaking city in the East. Sumy and Chernihiv were totally different objectives, meant to reduce Ukraine's fighting ability and assist in the Kyiv offensive. The Northerneastern offensive has ended, and the eastern offensive is ongoing, so Kharkiv should either be switched to the Eastern offensive or be considered its own offensive.Wolf359Locutus (talk) 18:59, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

I would argue, that the northeastern campaign's main goal was to put more pressure on Kyiv. After the failure to take Kyiv, the northeastern campaign is de facto over. That's why the battle of Kharkiv should be seen now as part of s broader eastern campaign. We can only speculate about the goals, but it looks more likely that the Russians want to put more pressure on the Ukrainian troops to bound them and to stop them from redeploying those troops to strengthen their defense of the Donetsk region. 91.46.86.117 (talk) 10:51, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

Kharkiv is also separated from the action in Sumy and Chernihiv, as evidenced by the fact that Russia has abandoned that axis but continues to attack Kharkiv. I agree that its separate from the East as well, so perhaps it makes more sense to consider it a separate Kharkiv offensive. The objectives are different. Just like Kyiv was condidered a separate offensive from the Northeastern offensive, even though the Northeastern offensive was intended to assist the Kyiv axis, the Kharkiv axis is meant, in part, to assist in the capture of the Donbas, but they are separate objectives.Wolf359Locutus (talk) 19:02, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

Merge Northeastern offensive into Kyiv and Eastern offensives?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of this discussion was to merge. After over a year of discussion, there is nigh-unanimous agreement that the events of the "northeastern Ukraine campaign" should instead be covered as part of the eastern Ukraine campaign and the Kyiv offensive. The arguments given include the fact that all the eastern campaign articles already include Kharkiv as part of their scope, that the fighting in the northern oblasts was militarily part of the Russian push towards Kyiv rather than its own campaign, and that the notion of the "northeast campaign" is ill-defined. There were no policy- or source-based arguments against the merge. There were also no objections to renaming Kyiv offensive (2022) to Northern Ukraine campaign due to the change in scope of that article to include more areas in the north. HappyWith (talk) 22:34, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

---

We have currently weird situation where Battle of Brovary is part of Kyiv offensive and Battle of Konotop (2022) is part of Northeastern offensive, even though they are part of exactly same Russian offensive direction. And on other side Battle of Izium (2022) is currently part of Northeastern offensive, even though it makes far more sense as part of Eastern offensive, as continuing part of Russian struggle for Donbass. So it seems to me Northeastern offensive should be split and merged. Sumy and everything west of it should be merged with Kyiv offensive and renamed "Northern offensive", which is now over with Russian withdrawal from the area, while fighting around Kharkiv area should be merged into ongoing Eastern offensive.--Staberinde (talk) 08:43, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

• Support I think you are right. There are a lot of inconsistencies that need to be addressed. Kharkiv and Izium should be part of Eastern Offensive imho. I support renaming the Kyiv offensive to "Northern offensive". KajMetz (talk) 11:14, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

  If the Kyiv offensive can be renamed to the Northern offensive then a lot of confusion can be resolved between that article and the Battle of Kyiv (2022). PenangLion (talk) 14:05, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose the easiest way to split them is by oblasts. There is no overlap in the theatres when you use oblasts. Laurel Lodged (talk) 14:53, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

  I don't think that the Oblasts necessarily the natural disambiguator here; battles tend to be lumped as being parts of the same campaign when they are conducted in furtherance of a certain campaign objective. Disambiguating by Oblast seems it will lead to a rather disjointed and incoherent way of framing the offensives. — Mhawk10 (talk) 00:42, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

If reviewing the past offensives, there are multiple different joined togehter. First of all, there was the Northwestern Kyiv Offensive through the Chornobyl NPP, then the Northeastern Kyiv offensive coming from Sumy Oblast, not Chernihiv. They didn't manage to get to Kyiv except along the Desna river for a few days. All other offensives against Kyiv coming from (north-)east were through the M-02 and H07 highways. In my opinion the battle of Okhtyrka does not belong to the Northeastern Offensive because the goal of the Northeastern Offensive was Kyiv but this was going to Poltava Oblast. Another point is that looking to the south east. The southern front merged a bit into the eastern front. Therefore there are no clear offensives in means of directions. From a russian point of view, their goal is to merge everything into one offensive. (Hopefully this won't happen). I think the idea of Staberinde is not bad, but you have to see have little do you want to chop it off. Make it e.g. Northwestern Offensive of Kyiv; Chernihiv Offensive; Northeastern Kyiv Offensive; Kharkiv Offensive; Eastern Offensive; Southeastern Offensive (going to Mariupol); Southerwestern Offensive (going to Kherson, Mykolaiiv). But this would chop it into too little pieces. So then maybe: Northern Offensive (Kyiv Oblast, Chernihiv Oblast, Sumy Oblast except Okhtyrka) Northeastern Offensive (Kharkiv Offensive); Eastern Offensive (Luhansk and Donezk Oblast); Southern Offensive. This is a really hard question and you have to judge it. I, personally, would split it up a bit, just to make more sense. Pettylein (talk) 19:49, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

• Support, maybe it was originally supposed to be bigger in the minds of the Russian military leadership, but it never got past that point. In light of the withdrawal, it seems to have been mostly realized as part of or to aid the ongoing Kyiv offensive (which should ideally be renamed to "Northern Ukraine offensive" should the merge happen) and Eastern Ukraine offensive. If the merge doesn't happen, then the engagements in Kharkiv Oblast should definitely be put under the Eastern Ukraine offensive at least, they seem separate from the earlier ones in the Northeast. Pescavelho (talk) 01:00, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

Support, though it'll cause problems in terms of article lengths. There's already two editors who say it's a Ukrainian victory here because of the withdrawals. Izium - part of Donbas offensive. Konotop - Route to Kyiv, as evident by the map. Dawsongfg (talk) 00:15, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

• Strong support. Though it will be complicated to apply. Super Ψ Dro 09:08, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Support. Specifically, the Kharkiv Oblast stuff should be merged to Battle of Donbas (2022) and Eastern Ukraine campaign, and the other events should be merged to Kyiv offensive (2022). Kharkiv is basically always considered by sources to be part of the eastern campaign. The grouping with Sumy and Chernihiv is total OR on the part of this article. A lot of the Kharkiv stuff probably won’t even need to be copied over since it’s already covered at those designation pages. HappyWith (talk) 23:12, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Forgot to mention, I would also support the proposal to rename "Kyiv offensive (2022)" to "Northern Ukraine campaign" if the merger goes through. HappyWith (talk) 19:04, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

I support this as well. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 12:09, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Mild support in principle but I think Super Dro’s remark that "it will be complicated to apply" might be a bit of an understatement. RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 10:09, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

I think it might actually be easier than it looks - most of this article is just Kharkiv Oblast stuff, which I suspect is already covered pretty well in Eastern Ukraine campaign anyway. HappyWith (talk) 18:58, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Changing the article

I suggest that this article be separated into the Northeastern Offensive in Chernihiv and Sumy Oblasts and a separate Kharkiv Offensive, of which the Northeastern Offensive would be over but the Kharkiv Offensive would be ongoing. 173.54.55.97 (talk) 12:48, 3 August 2022 (UTC)