Talk:Norman Irish

Hiberno-Normans?

This is more like it, although it should be plural: Hiberno-Normans. The section covering the Normans in Ireland should by right be under this heading rather than 'Anglo-Normans'. There are many, many reasons why this should be the case. In the first place, most Normans came from Wales, not England and thus the epithet 'Cambro-Normans' is used to describe them by leading late medievalists such as Seán Duffy. Furthermore, contrary to common belief the term 'Old English' only came into use to describe them in 1580- i.e. over four centuries after the first Normans arrived in Ireland. In addition, if they were Anglo-Normans four centuries after arriving in Ireland (from Wales!) can we hear more about the "Norman-English" 400 years after 1066? It is ahistorical in the extreme to deny the very Hiberno-Norman cultural and political world they developed in these centuries and hide it under the simplistic misnomer, "Anglo-Normans". To simplify my argument somewhat: while not all Normans, or even a majority of them, in Ireland were of English/Anglo origin, all those of Norman descent in Ireland were Hiberno-Normans. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.1.172.163 (talk • contribs)

It would be well worth while adding that to the article, please - I'm sure you would prefer to copyedit it yourself. Provide you can cite the references, you should certainly look at correcting any existing use of Anglo-norman in existing category:History of Ireland articles.

(Wiki convention is always to use the singular, and to form the plural like this [[Hiberno-Norman]]s, which produces "Hiberno-Normans"). --Red King 13:51, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Content from another page

I contributed all the following to Irish nobility, which I then renamed to Gaelic and Hiberno-Norman nobility of Ireland to make a concession to a difficult editor, but he remains confused by the Peerage of Ireland and so the latest title is now Gaelic nobility of Ireland. I'm not happy with it and think some Hiberno-Norman families should be included there. In fact the original title Irish nobility was best. Oh well.

Norman (Old English)

See also: Old English (Ireland) and Peerage of Ireland

The Gaelic Irish referred to the Normans using the same terms they did for the earlier Norse, namely Dubgaill and Finngaill. Also, unlike the later and true English, the Normans first entered the nation invited, famously by Dermot MacMurrough, King of Leinster. A number of these peerages were created after 1541, but the families were already present and landed, in the more prominent cases independent and in others subject to Gaelic or other Norman lords.

• FitzGerald dynasty - headed by the Duke of Leinster, this variously described Hiberno-Norman or Cambro-Norman dynasty were at one time one of the very most powerful in Ireland. Both the Kildare and Desmond branches intermarried and were politically involved with the Gaelic dynasties to a notable degree. The hereditary Knight of Kerry and Knight of Glin of the Desmond branch were apparently created in Ireland by the Earls of Desmond, now extinct, acting as Earls palatine.
  • Duke of Leinster
• Marquess of Lansdowne - of the same family as the FitzGeralds, the FitzMaurices, when Barons Kerry, extensively intermarried with the O'Briens and MacCarthys
• Butler dynasty - the Butlers were also great Earls palatine and the chief rivals of the FitzGeralds. Although often leaning more English in culture, they also intermarried with the Gaelic dynasties, in fact to a greater degree than the FitzGeralds, with some Butlers becoming very Gaelicized.The Book of the White Earl was created under the patronage of James Butler, 4th Earl of Ormond.
  • Earl of Carrick
  • Viscount Mountgarret - descendants of Donal Reagh MacMorrough Kavanagh, King of Leinster, and Hugh O'Neill, last recognized High King of Ireland. An ancestor of the Viscounts Mountgarret was Edmund MacRichard Butler, who adopted the Gaelic title of The MacRichard of Ossory.
  • Baron Dunboyne
• De Burgh dynasty - the descendants of William de Burgh became famously Gaelicized, with some acquiringsovereignty and becoming de facto petty kings in their territories. Their remote location in Connacht allowed them to become the only Norman family to achieve this.
  • Earl of Mayo
• Nugent family
  • Earl of Westmeath
• Plunkett family
  • (Earl of Fingall) - to 1984
  • Baron of Dunsany
  • Baron Louth
• Dillon family
  • Viscount Dillon
• Preston family
  • Viscount Gormanston

Dormant titles

• Butler dynasty
  • Earl of Ormond
• De Birmingham family
  • Baron Athenry

References

So I hope to expand this article with some of the above content. DinDraithou (talk) 15:05, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Devine and Bennett family names

Should the above two names be considered "Hiberno-Norman"? The origin of Devine is disputed between a Gaelic origin and an origin in old French: frankly the later etymology seems a lot more sensible, if Occam's Razor has any place in this field. Bennett is also a common family name amongst people from Ireland and seems to be clearly of Norman origin. --Luftschiffritter5 1 (talk) 16:28, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Culkin/Calkin/Caulkin and Colgan family name

Based on own personal genealogic research I had to come to the conclusion that the family name Culkin/Calkin/Caulkin and even the more Irish style Colgan cannot be really Irish. Unfortunately there seem to be many genealogical quacks with commercial ties that are making up Irish origins for mostly American people, who are mostly unfamiliar with accessing European genealogical records. First of all at the end of the 19th century the occurence of family names had been registered all over Great-Britain and Ireland. Culkin/Calkin/Caulkin only appeared significantly in England, which makes sense because of the Germanic dimunitive ending. In Ireland less than a hundred people were found with the more Irish style family name Colgan, mostly in Dublin, King's and Antrim. If Culkin/Calkin/Caulkin and Colgan had been really Irish, then this family name should have also occurred in Scotland in the same or a similar variant, which does not seem to be the case. Within the historic Lotharingia variations of family names having the dimunitive ending -ken/-gen, which is cognate to -kin/-gan, used to be rather common. My personal family name Keultjes is a formation of the original Koelken/Koelgen. This family name occurred originally along and in between both the river Rhine and the river Meuse. There happens to be a French version of this name, Culquin. According to my personal genealogic research "we" used to be ministeriales and laets serving bishops and the like, amongst others the Prince Bishop of Liège. With the Norman invasion also Lotharingian warriors and clerics arrived in Great-Britain and Ireland. For instance Thomas of Bayeux, archbishop of York, was educated at Liège. So it makes absolutely perfect sense these Lotharingian ministeriales and laets entered the British Isles just as well.

• PS1 There are clear indications these people were Christians of Jewish origin from Cologne, because these family names are cognate to Rhineland Jewish women's names.
• PS2 Ministeriales as well as laets were contrary to the common scolarly oppinion freeborn persons, who did not have a "patrimonium".Amand Keultjes (talk) 19:36, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

High Kings et al

Picking up on a talk between DD and myself on my talk page ... Ruaidrí Ua Conchobair was the last recognised High King of Ireland. O'Neill had his ambitions, but even his supporters (such as the compilers of the Annals of the Four Masters) stress his English title. The time of the High Kings was long gone by his time, and well it was known. For further data, see From Kings to Warlords by Katherine Simms. No, it would be incorrect to accord King of Ireland to O'Neill, though quite right to call him King of Tir Eoghan.

As regards references, the succession lists and genealogies in A New History of Ireland, volume ix, are regarded as authoritive by todays historians. We're somewhat at our own discretion at more minor dynasties and kings. It troubles me that Fitz Maurice does not seem to use ANHI IX in his references, as I would regard IX as a primary tool of any Irish historian. Honestly, its that good. Fergananim (talk) 02:41, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't see what this has to do with this article. DinDraithou (talk) 03:06, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Common name?

Hello all. I discovered this article after attempting to link "Norman Irish" in another article and discovering that it was a redlink (now fixed).

Anyway, judging by the historical literature, Norman Irish may be the more common name. See, e.g. this search of Google Books: hiberno-Norman OR "norman irish" -wikipedia Grant | Talk 07:01, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

@Grant65: I've moved the article to "Norman Irish" entirely as the former name "Normans in Ireland" isn't even mentioned in the article, I thought it was an inappropriate title, I couldn't move the article back to "Hiberno-Normans", and (independently from your argument) I came to the conclusion that "Norman Irish" is also better than "Hiberno-Normans", given that it stresses that these families now consider themselves Irish. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 02:06, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

Citations

Huge sections of this topic are obviously copied from other documents without citations. Anyone know where they came from? Very Large Article with just 10+ citations. FrancisXavier17 (talk) 23:12, 27 November 2022 (UTC)