Talk:Luther "Georgia Boy" Johnson

Lung Cancer or Brain Cancer

The following source says brain cancer. http://www.chicagoreader.com/Bleader/archives/2015/12/29/muddy-waters-sideman-luther-snake-boy-johnson-had-his-career-cut-short-by-brain-cancer I don't know which is correct however the source that is referenced in this article actually only mentions "cancer" and not which type.Halconen (talk) 20:28, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

Good spot. The article has been amended accordingly to show brain cancer, as per the reliable source cited. Thanks,

Derek R Bullamore (talk) 23:28, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

Apparently his family say it was lung cancer, not brain cancer. I've amended it to simply say "cancer". Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:51, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

Birth date

When this article is unprotected, someone might like to remember to add <ref name="bare">{{cite book| first1= Bob| last1= Eagle| first2= Eric S.| last2= LeBlanc| year= 2013| title= Blues - A Regional Experience| publisher= Praeger Publishers| location= Santa Barbara| pages=105 | isbn= 978-0313344237}}</ref> as confirmation of the birth date of August 30, 1934, per a reliable source. Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:49, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Actually - and opposite to what Eagle & LeBlanc (2013!) wrote - his birth date is August 30, 1941, not 1934, according to Bob Eagle (citing Johnson's death certificate!) and Johnson's daughter DeDe Brinson Hassell (from family knowledge!) at facebook; see also birth date on his headstone at https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/7940886/luther-johnson Me, I don't want to be - again - part of a quarrel about if those are "reliable sources" in the Wikipedia sense, so make of it what you will! ;-) StefanWirz (talk) 05:22, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Both death certificates and headstones - usually, in both cases, based on information provided by the family - can be wrong. Essentially, they are based on hearsay, and in any case are primary sources which shouldn't really be used here (but often are). The published source (BARE p.105, to which there have been no published corrections so far as I know) gives 1934, but doesn't give a source. (If Bob Eagle now thinks differently, we would only know that through personal communication, which shouldn't be relied upon!) I haven't been able to find any Georgia birth records online - what would be needed to help sort this out would be his birth certificate, of course. (There was a Loucious [sic] Brinson recorded, age 6, in the 1940 US Census in Bryan County, Georgia, the son of Joseph B. and Lizzie Brinson (subscriber-only link to census form) - but this may not be him as he seems to have died in 1975 not 1976.)

One source (here) says: "He served in the Army, and when he was discharged he ended up in Milwaukee playing guitar for a local Gospel group, The Supreme Angels. Lucious soon put his own Blues band together, calling himself ‘Luther Johnson’ and picking up the ‘Snake Boy’ tag. When he moved to Chicago in the late 50s, he played regularly with Otis Spann and Elmore James before joining Muddy Waters’ band in 1967. " However, if this bio is at all accurate it's very hard to see how he could have done all that - Army service, followed by local group in Milwaukee, then own band, then moving to Chicago - by the time he was eighteen in 1959 ("the late 50s")!! By the age of 25, perhaps. So, I propose adding a {{dubious}} tag to the dates in the article, in the hope that some further discussion here might be able to give a more reliable answer. By the way, though this source gives 1934, I suspect it was based either on BARE or on an earlier version of this article. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:33, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

Little Luther

The "Little Luther", whose February 21, 1964 recordings for the Chess label of "Eenie Meenie Minie Moe" and "Twirl" have been released on Checker 1090 (US 1964) and Pye International 7N.25266 (UK 1964) is not Luther Johnson, but Luther Thomas!, according to Bob Eagle (and others) at facebook: "Actually it is Luther Thomas, a New York performer who also recorded for AN APT RECORDING, Criss Cross and Tarx." (Bob Eagle) StefanWirz (talk) 06:09, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

I've edited and corrected the article on the basis of these comments. If others want to revert the changes in order to reinstate the previous inaccurate information, we can discuss sources here. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:00, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Further discussion

There's some further discussion in blues forums about inaccuracies / inconsistencies in this article, which we should try to resolve (if necessary, through footnotes noting the inconsistencies in sources). Previous edits by family members have been reverted, for example here, as being inconsistent with published sources deemed to be "reliable". But, there are in some cases differences between published sources.

Firstly, there was a person called Lucious Brinson, apparently born 4 May 1933, died 27 Nov 1975 - see FindaGrave. Am I right in thinking that that person is not the subject of this article? The correct FindaGrave person is apparently this one - but the bio gives a different date (1934) to the headstone (1941). It is easy to see how biographers may have been confused between two or more different individuals. The 1940 census shows that there were also several individuals called Lucius (or Lucious) Johnson living in Georgia at that time.

Secondly, there are several sources that give his most often used nickname as "Snake Boy". However, the view of his family and those who worked with him is that he was usually called "The Snake" or "Snake", not "Snake Boy". This entry - in a usually reliable source, "BARE" - gives his nicknames as "Georgia Boy" and "Snake", but not "Snake Boy" - as do the Morgantini liner notes (see below).

The same source (BARE) gives his birth name as Lucius Brinson Johnson - but (quite unusually for that book) with no explanatory footnote giving a source.

There's also a question of whether his death was from brain cancer (as published sources state) or lung cancer (as his family say).

Finally, there is the question of his birth year. It's hard to see, if he was born in 1941, how he could have undergone military service, formed bands and moved to Chicago, all by 1959. BARE (and Allmusic) gives his birth date as August 30, 1934 - contrary to the 1941 date given by the family. Where does the error lie? Does the reference to military service refer to the "other" Lucious Brinson, born in 1933 (or 1934)? Or, are his family simply incorrect over when he was born - as is quite often the case? PS: Just seen - the liner notes of his album Born in Georgia (prepared by Jacques Morgantini) give the August 30, 1934 birth date, and state that he moved to Chicago in 1947, with no mention of military service.

Any suggestions as to how this article should be improved and made more factually accurate? Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:13, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

PS: I've now edited the article to include both 1934 and 1941 possible birth years. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:52, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

"Snake Boy" in article title

What's puzzling me is the fact that the of all things least common (some would even say: "false") of Johnson's monikers, "Snake Boy", is used in the article's title. I understand that when the article was first written in 2012, Cub Coda's review at AllMusic using the "Snake Boy" nickname might have been the only reliable source handy (don't have the time nor the nerve to further investigate this), but that meanwhile has changed ...

Actually *all* of Johnson's LPs and CDs (if not solely using his name "Luther Johnson" in their titles) do use the most common names "Georgia Boy" "Snake" or "Georgia Boy Snake", but never "Snake Boy" - with the sole exception of two (generally incorrectly annotated) early 1990s French CDs on the Fan Club label (see https://www.discogs.com/artist/474811-Luther-Johnson or http://www.wirz.de/music/johnslu1.htm

Here's a selection of published sources (all reliable, methinks) that exclusively use the "Georgia Boy" "Snake" or "Georgia Boy Snake" monikers, but never "Snake Boy":

- Jean-Claude Arnaudon: Dictionnaire du Blues.- Paris, France (Filipacci) 1977, pp. 138-139

- Bob Eagle & Eric S. LeBlanc: Blues - A Regional Experience.- Santa Barbara (Praeger Publishers) 2013, p. 105

- Les Fancourt & Bob McGrath: The Blues Discography 1943 - 1970 (3rd edition).- Vancouver (Eyeball Productions) 2019, p. 232

- Robert Ford: A Blues Bibliography, 2nd Edition (Routledge Music Bibliographies) 2007, p. 534

- Robert Ford & Bob McGrath: The Blues Discography 1971 - 2000 [the later years].- Vancouver (Eyeball Productions) 2011, p. 232

- Robert Gordon: Johnson, Luther "Georgia Boy" "Snake".- in Edward Komara (ed.): Encyclopedia of the Blues Vol. 1 (A-L).- New York/London (Routledge) 2005, p. 534

- Sheldon Harris: Blues Who's Who - A Bibliographical Dictionary of Blues Singers.- New York (Da Capo Press) 1987, pp. 285-286 StefanWirz (talk) 09:39, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

Having looked at this a little myself, I would support a move, following StefanWirz's logic. The question is, would it be better at Luther "Georgia Boy" Johnson, or Luther "Snake" Johnson? Both are redirects at the moment. I'm open to persuasion either way. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:45, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

Me, I would prefer "Luther 'Georgia Boy' / 'Snake' Johnson" as article title, if this is at all possible under Wikipedia laws. StefanWirz (talk) 13:55, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

There's WP:NAMINGCRITERIA, WP:OTHERNAMES, and WP:TITLEFORMAT... etc. - lots of guidance. I don't think that the use of an oblique slash is expressly prohibited, but I think the guidance is clear that we should use one of the names by which he was commonly named, rather than trying to fit more than one into the title - that's what redirects are for. Personally I would prefer Luther "Georgia Boy" Johnson, on the basis that that is how he was first described (here), and it seems to have been a nickname by which he would have been recognised throughout his career. (Incidentally, was he ever known as "Luther King", or is that someone else?) Derek R Bullamore - do you have a view on any of this? Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:21, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

I do not have a real preference either way. Is Luther Johnson (blues musician) an acceptable compromise, given the redirects already existing or to be created ? Or, is it worth asking a wider forum on one of Wikipedia's 'Village Pump' type pages ?? Frankly, "I'm easy, I'm easy like Sunday morning". - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 14:44, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

Well, we already have Luther Johnson (Guitar Junior)... who's also a blues musician. I think we would need to go to WP:RM in any case, if the title we would like is already set up as a redirect (like Luther "Georgia Boy" Johnson, for instance). Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:58, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

May I remind y'all that there's also Luther "Houserocker" Johnson, also a "blues musician", who hasn't (yet, but deserves one) Wikipedia article --- I think a future article for him should be included into the article naming process for *all* the "Luther Johnsons" available, like, e.g. "Luther Johnson (Georgia Boy Snake)", "Luther Johnson (Guitar Junior)" and "Luther Johnson (Houserocker)" StefanWirz (talk) 15:33, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

Oh.... well, that was interesting. I seem to have moved the page by accident (honest!). I thought I would just check that we would need to go to WP:RM to move it... but obviously I was wrong. If no-one objects too vigorously, I will tweak the article a little to fit the new title. Ghmyrtle (talk) 17:09, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

Discography

According to the comprehensive and reliable discography here, Johnson also appeared on two albums, New York Really Has The "Blues Stars (Vol. 2) and New York Really Has The "Blues Stars" Vol. 4, issued on the Spivey label in the early 1980s. However, he only seems to play as a backing musician on one track on each of the albums, and to my mind that doesn't justify adding them to the discography here. Others may disagree. Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:13, 26 April 2020 (UTC)