Talk:Wikipedia logo

Omega letter;

All letters are used in Wikipedia transliteration (maybe some letters aren't the first letter, but still they are in the transliterations) apart from Ω. This letter isn't used at all in the greek transliteration (Βικιπαίδεια). I can only guess that the first attempts to tranlate wikipedia in greek would be ℧ικιπαίδεια=Ουικιπαίδεια a minor transliteration that isn't used. (℧ was used as ου some decades ago in greek alphabet but it is obsolete nowadays). If we want to represent the first letters of some languages then we sould replace Ω with Β. --Περίεργος (talk) 07:23, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

This isn't really the right place for such a discussion. This page is for discussing the contents of the article about the Wikipedia logo. You might want to head over to https://meta.wikimedia.org for general multi-wiki discussions like this. Powers ^T 15:06, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

@LtPowers and Περίεργος: (Dead horse department) My guess is that omega was used because lowercase omega (ω) strongly resembles a "w", although the capital letter does not. --Thnidu (talk) 22:29, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

A good guess, but probably not correct. An effort was made to be accurate linguistically, not just visually. Powers ^T 00:59, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

I have just added something to this Talk in the section about the Cyrillic letter И in the logo, but I guess you’re right that such things should be discussed elsewhere. Only, I can’t find my way to an appropriate place with the link given here. Anything more specific, please? --Geke (talk) 22:23, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

I chose the characters in question when making the logo, and in some cases I chose characters that represent a "W" or "wi" sound, but in other cases (specifically with Greek and Cyrillic) I chose characters that were distinctive and evocative of that writing system rather than characters that represent the name of Wikipedia. I have described this elsewhere and it is why a proposal to change to Greek Β or Cyrillic В is a bad design idea and contrary to the intent of the logo. Nohat (talk) 16:47, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

Death Star II – The missing pieces

The article doesn't mention similarities to the Death Star at all but it's worth noting that there are currently over 8,000 Google search results for <"wikipedia logo" "death star">. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.219.176.153 (talk) 10:46, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Linux Libertine

The article says that the logo uses the Linux Libertine typeface, but this is not true. We can all see that the "W" in "WIKIPEDIA" is crossing, but the W in Linux Libertine does not cross. (I can upload a screenshot or anyone can download it if they don't have it already and see for themselves.) I'm not sure actually what typeface is used in the logo, but it looks to be some type of Garamond. Definitely not Linux Libertine though. -Helvetica (talk) 15:58, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

From http://www.linuxlibertine.org/index.php?id=2&L=1,

With the latest design change, Wikipedia also introduced a new logo with a new font face: LinuxLibertine.

The Wikimedia Usability Initiative chose the Libertine font because of its OpenSource maxim, the large number of covered languages and special characters and the classical elegant style. But at first one detail seemed to be an obstacle: The crossed form of the letter W had always been a distinctive part of the Wikipedia brand. However, the Libertine's W was uncrossed. The solution was simple: The Libertine Open Fonts Project designed a crossed form of its W and and now provides it as optional opentype feature in Linux Libertine.

A short manual helps wikipedia members to localize the logo into 250 different languages.

Nohat (talk) 22:51, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

The above text is referenced already, all that was needed was moving of one reference, which I have since done. This could have been done just about as quickly as tagging with dubious, and certainly much quicker than adding a new section on the talk page. Nick (talk) 17:57, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Correct, the "W" in the wordmark isn't actually a "W" character. It's the character  (U+e02f) rendered in Linux Libertine. Kaldari (talk) 00:44, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

How it was produced is irrelevant to what it is. It is a W character. Nohat (talk) 17:43, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

3D model

Hi everyone, is there any open 3D model that can directly be used for 3D printing the the Wikipedia logo? --Arnd (talk) 15:14, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

@Aschroet: I found linked from https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Wikimedia_official_marks/About_the_official_Marks#Wikipedia_puzzle_globe this page: https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/File:Wikipedia_puzzle_globe_3D_render.zip which has blender files. And from https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_logos#3D_versions this page: https://github.com/slashme/WikipediaGlobePrintable which has thicker pieces, non-overlapping edges and smoother surface; also has STL files. Opencooper (talk) 21:24, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

Thank you Opencooper. --Arnd (talk) 10:24, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

Coat of arms of Wikipedia?

Further information: Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_logos § Coat_of_arms_of_Wikipedia.3F

Logo's presentation

The Wikipedia logo is not presented on pages when using the MinevaNeua, Modern, and Timeless skins, and, as the official logo of the project, it probably should be. Its size can be adjusted to fit the flow of the skin, but as Wikipedia's official logo and explanatory visual metaphor it would be appropriate to show it on all skins. Maybe someone can ping those who can make the decision to show it, or would a full RfC or Village Pump discussion be the way to go (wanted to bring this here first for comments, as this may have been fully addressed before). Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 11:33, 4 November 2019 (UTC)

New image

I found this image:

Where do I put it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by commuter3 (talk • contribs)

Nowhere. There's a Commons category to collect such images, commons:Category:Wikipedia logo variants. Added. Nemo 08:14, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

Uhhhhh, what image? Doesn't show up for me. I'm going to check my settings. WikiMic (talk) 01:16, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

Video

Nimish Gautam explains design changes to the Wikipedia puzzle globe in 2012

Victor Grigas (talk) 02:44, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

Logo Change

Wikipedia logo of https://fa.wikipedia.org/ is changed by somebody? Was this act authorized? Would somebody please change it back to the original logo? --Idris, the wise (talk) 06:57, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

wikipedia pages in Ge'ez and Tibetan languages

i am unable to find any such wikipedia page i did search in https://www.wikipedia.org/ - read wikipedia in your language, but did not find am i mistaken? Kuruvillareji (talk) 17:52, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

Short description

AlexBalder01, you reverted my edit when I added short description to the article. Before you reverted my edit, I asked what was the reason for reverting. Can you explain why you reverted my edit? Short Description «None» should be on the list articles. This article is not a list. 195.5.3.58 (talk) 16:13, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

The article is also not about "Logo of the free online encyclopedia" – The Grid (talk) 19:46, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

I agree with you, but Wikipedia is a free online encyclopedia, right? I didn't add a short description "Logo of Wikipedia" since the article is already called "Wikipedia logo". That's why I added the short description "Logo of the free online encyclopedia". And also, short description "none" should be on list articles. This article is not a list. 195.5.3.58 (talk) 14:37, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

I don't know where you got the idea that no short description applies to only lists. Per WP:SDNONE, article titles that are sufficiently detailed do not need a short description. – The Grid (talk) 13:21, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Sound Logo

The Wikimedia sound logo is here: File:Wikimedia Sound Logo Finalist VQ97.wav , this is supposed to be a sonic logo for all projects. Victor Grigas (talk) 18:19, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

Paul Stansifer

File:Paul Stansifer at the Wikimedia Foundation in front of the Wikipedia Puzzle Globe Logo.jpg This image exists in case its useful Victor Grigas (talk) 14:09, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Contest and "improval"??

I didn't think "improval" was a real word, but Wiktionary says it's non-standard for "improvement". Shouldn't we stick to WP:FORMAL here? Muzilon (talk) 09:24, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

French logo colour

In the section "second logo", the following text, supposedly describing the French logo, "golden (yellow) circle with a white dove" is placed directly below an image showing a green circle with a white dove, with the image caption claiming to depict the French logo. This is at the very least confusing, but likely it's wrong. --95.89.78.72 (talk) 00:54, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

 Fixed Janhrach (talk) 08:44, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Overly detailed?

@Mach61: Why do you consider this article overly detailed? I would agree that the section on secondary logos is, but as for the rest, I disagree. Janhrach (talk) 18:39, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

The {{overly detailed}} tag is an extension of the {{primary sources}} tag; for example, the entire anniversary section is sourced only to primary sources, making it impossible to gauge what the scope of this article is if not every single update to the logo discussed on a Wikimedia blog Mach61 (talk) 18:45, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

Thank you, I agree with you on this section. Janhrach (talk) 18:51, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

Arabic letter "yaa"

The arabic letter ya is described as a "Yodh", which is actually a hebrew letter. It would be better to say "ya", which is what it's actually called in arabic, since "yodh" is more a general terms for a series of letters which all descended from an older script. https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Yodh#Arabic_y%C4%81%CA%BC Taiyaki Schizo (talk) 16:09, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia logo font?

It's definitely not this default font hypersilly ^(talk) 12:46, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Gothic vinja vs Gothic winja

Why is it Gothic vinja and not Gothic winja? Is this a typo? I'm not sure. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kkoliver2005 (talk • contribs) 2024-11-03T09:02:06 (UTC)

I have fixed it, it probably was a typo. Janhrach (talk) 15:55, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Early logo of Wikipedia used in 2003

https://web.archive.org/web/20031001223200/http://sep11.wikipedia.org/upload/wiki.png

• Alternative logo of "Wikipedia" not currently listed on this page.
• Found used at http://sep11.wikipedia.org

• Image archived by archive.org in 2003 October and 2004 June.

• Used concurrently with the known contemporary Wikipedia logos during transition to the modern "puzzle box" logo, and likely never used in mainspace.
• Might be considered as belonging under Wikipedia_logo#Events (darker logo for tragedy of September 11th?)
• Might be argued it was generally an alternative or transitory logo for Wikipedia (used during transition only on one subdomain? Any other usages?)

Is this a "Wikipedia" logo?

Ignoring the fact that the logo clearly presents itself as a general Wikipedia logo with the subtitle "Wikipedia - The Free Encyclopedia", it is useful to look at historic verbiage used at the sep11.wikipedia.org main page.

• In the logo's original context, between October 2002 and March 2004, sep11.wikipedia.org was considered a part of the main Wikipedia project. "Welcome to In Memoriam: September 11, 2001, a special section of Wikipedia. [...] All contributions to Wikipedia, including those here, are released under the GNU Free Documentation License."
• However, after 25 March 2004, the designation of sep11.wikipedia.org was changed to "a sister project of Wikipedia".
• In subsequent edits, the main page's stance on the nature of its relationship to the main Wikipedia project was a little confused. Notably, the lead in July 2005 onward stated "This is the home page for the memorial part of this wiki." while also stating in contradiction "Welcome to In Memoriam: September 11, 2001, part of the September 11, 2001 wiki."
• Confusion over what role sep11.wikipedia.org really had culminated in its closure, on September 15th 2006. Consensus at the closure discussion page seems to have been that Wikipedia as an encyclopedia no longer needed to host a separate 9/11 memorial [website/section/wiki/project space], and suitable content should be merged into main space going forward.
• Modernly, https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Sep11wiki calls sep11.wikipedia.org "a former Wikimedia project". This terminology was also used in some contemporary page revisions at sep11.wikipedia.org after May 2005. This is therefore not entirely a retroactive categorization, but it can be said that much changed for Wikipedia between 2002 and even 2005, with greater formalization of the platform and wider public usage. This was not the original context that the logo was designed & deployed in.

Who made this logo? Where is it from?

I've not been able to find this information without community outreach. Here is information related to the dead end I reached:

• Image:Wiki.png seems to be an unrelated unused image design, first recorded revision in March 2003. The original recorded description of that image was simply "redesigned logo". It was later described by the creator as "Logo for In Memoriam made from PD image from http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Wtc-2004-memorial.jpg Made by User:Timrem, released to Public Domain." Because this description states that the logo is based on an image from 2004, it cannot be the same logo that is actually seen in any early archive of sep11.wikipedia.org. However, this is the only page title with the suffix ".png" in the dumps provided by WikiMedia at https://dumps.wikimedia.org/sep11wiki/20071116/ and the logo is documented to have remained static between October 2003 and June 2004.
• The dump provided by wikimedia.org is apparently generally not complete, since this image description page was archived by archive.org and is not present in current dump files. It seems unlikely that the logo image would fall under the category of "Deleted page and revision data", so I'm not sure how to interpret these omissions, other than just a mistake.

Comments

If anyone is more familiar with the history of this logo, or knows someone who might be, please help document the usage of this logo. Thanks, — Hubcapp (talk) 22:10, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

The logo was one of the contestants in the first logo contest; see meta:Logo suggestions. I am surprised to see it was used in sep11wiki. Why do you think that it was [u]sed concurrently with the known contemporary Wikipedia logos during transition to the modern "puzzle box" logo? I also do not understand what you mean with the two references attached to that sentence. Janhrach (talk) 16:10, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for finding that! The two references there are meant to show that as as documented by archive.org, this "sep11 wiki logo" wasn't uploaded to English Wikipedia as the main logo (though there are definitely better sources to show that didn't happen). Because the logo was used on sep11 wiki at least between 2003 October and 2004 June, at the same time as different logos were used on the main English Wikipedia, I called it "used concurrently". — Hubcapp (talk) 17:57, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification, I understand now. Janhrach (talk) 17:58, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Correction: as per the linked meta page, the logo seems to have been proposed after the contest ([1]). Janhrach (talk) 18:08, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Note: be careful about images you see in the Wayback Machine – they may have been archived on a different date than the page you are browsing.

I think I discovered more details. It seems that the image was originally uploaded as File:Wiki.png, resulting in it being uploaded to http://meta.wikipedia.com/upload/wiki.png. Later, this URL was probably repurposed for the site logo, resulting in the proposed logo anachronistically appearing in old archived Meta Wikipedia (and somehow also on the memorial wiki) pages. Some other interesting details:

• File:Wiki.png still seems contain the logo for some wikis. Cf. meta:File:Wiki.png, wikt:File:Wiki.png. However, see [2], wikidata:File:Wiki.png.
• Compare the logo contest, as of March 8, 2003, in the Wayback Machine and on the live wiki: [3][4]. Notice that the top-left-corner logo in Wayback is from https://web.archive.org/web/20021201040938im_/http://meta.wikipedia.org/upload/wiki.png (scraped December 1, 2002), but the proposed logo appearing in the text is from https://web.archive.org/web/20061229013822im_/http://meta.wikipedia.org/upload/b/bc/Wiki.png (scraped December 29, 2006).

Janhrach (talk) 19:53, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Although a common trap for young players, I was indeed mindful of the anachronism of included images sometimes injected by the Wayback machine. https://web.archive.org/web/*/http://sep11.wikipedia.org/upload/wiki.png was scraped by archive.org on 1 October 2003 and also in June of 2004, being valid for at least those dates.

Further, based on the revision history of Image:Wiki.png in http://download.wikimedia.org/sep11wiki/20071116/sep11wiki-20071116-pages-meta-history.xml.7z, specifically revisions 390238 and 394972, this image was unchanged between 3 March 2003 and 16 October 2006. 16 October 2006 is approximately 1 month after the official closure of sep11.wikipedia.org.

The main relevant Wayback Machine archived HTML showing that this logo was indeed used at the top-left sidebar position displayed is this segment from https://web.archive.org/web/20040401150756/http://sep11.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_Memoriam (and others in the timeframe of October 2003 to June 2004):

<a href="/web/20040401150756/http://sep11.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page"><img border="0" src="/web/20040401150756im_/http://sep11.wikipedia.org/upload/wiki.png" alt="[Main Page]"></a>

As such, I'm confident that this logo was used as presented minimally between 1 October 2003 and 7 June 2004. It could be confirmed on other dates that the top-left sidebar image always points at http://sep11.wikipedia.org/upload/wiki.png to recover a full logo history of sep11.wikipedia.org. — Hubcapp (talk) 20:41, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

You are probably right in your conclusion, but I am not sure if the file sep11.wikipedia.org/upload/wiki.png reflected the revisions of File:Wiki.png. As you can see at [5], uploaded images were already stored in subdirectories of /upload/ (and not in the directory itself, as the top-left logo was) in 2003. Janhrach (talk) 21:03, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

That I'm also not totally sure of, which is why I limit the date range that I'm certain that the image was displayed as the sep11.wikipedia.org logo to 1 October 2003 through 7 June 2004. I would really like if someone who was involved back then were available for comment.

• What was the intention in using this logo at sep11.wikipedia.org? I can only speculate based on the available evidence.
• Does the description at Image:Wiki.png really map to upload/wiki.png in 2003 era mediawiki software? Perhaps this can be independently further investigated, but it would be nice if someone just remembered.
• I think it's very interesting you found that it was initially uploaded apparently by an anonymous IP editor. Was this a known person who just happened to be logged out?
• The 3 March 2003 upload to sep11.wikipedia.org is attributed to User:Stevertigo. This user is likely unavailable for comment unfortunately. Anyone else know anything?

Most of all, I am hesitant to categorize and include this historic logo without further input from the community, given that some possible interpretations may violate WP:SURPRISE.

— Hubcapp (talk) 21:36, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

I am not sure if [t]he 3 March 2003 upload to sep11.wikipedia.org is attributed to User:Stevertigo. I see that revision in the dump, but it is a revision of the page, not the file. The upload log does not show a corresponding upload entry. As you have pointed out, the dumps do not seem to be completely reliable. Happy holidays! Janhrach (talk) 18:30, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

However, the oldimage dump indeed shows an upload by Stevertigo. Janhrach (talk) 18:49, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Some insights are found on archived talk pages which discuss the logo.

From https://web.archive.org/web/20030526123016/http://sep11.wikipedia.org:80/wiki/Talk:In_Memoriam

User:MyRedDice historically complained:

[...]

• Each page says "From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia" - it should say something more appropriate ("From the memorial wiki", etc)
• the logo says Wikipedia... again, it should say something more appropriate

[...]

These points of their list of criticisms were ignored by User:Brion VIBBER in their 2 March 2003 response, but provide evidence that a logo similar to this (apparently presented as a general logo of Wikipedia) was used prior to that date.

Because of the date of this comment, we can see that the 3 March 2003 first available revision of Image:Wiki.png documented by the 2007 dump provided by Wikimedia either does not relate to this upload/wiki.png image, or there are prior deleted revisions that were not included in the dump (either through data loss, or they are only available to administrators).

The earliest inclusion of "a logo" for sep11.wikipedia.org documented by archive.org that I have found is 6 February 2003. This is not necessarily the same image as finally archived by archive.org on 1 October 2003, but is consistent with description above.

----

From https://web.archive.org/web/20040819221816/http://sep11.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:General_discussion

An undated and unsigned comment complained:

The logo could do with being made transparent in order to intergrate better into the new interface.

The archived upload/wiki.png image is indeed not transparent, instead on a white background, which would clash with the light-blue background of sep11.wikipedia.org, as depicted modernly by the wayback machine.

----

From https://web.archive.org/web/20051030045524/http://sep11.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:In_Memoriam

User:Kaldari proposed a new logo on 29 October 2005, in the process, providing a text description of the current logo:

I would like to propose replacing the logo for this wiki. The current logo is the old Wikipedia logo. This is not an appropriate logo for several reasons:

1. This wiki is not part of the Wikipedia project, but rather a separate project with completely different goals and policies. Using the Wikipedia logo here is confusing and misleading.
2. The logo is outdated. It doesn't look especially attractive and it doesn't have any transparency, making it look awkward on top of the graphical background.
3. The memorial wiki should have its own distict logo just like every other seperate wiki project.

Although I'm not much of a graphical designer, I've created a new logo that can be used for this purpose, unless someone wants to come up with a better version. To acknowledge the wiki's origin as a spin-off of Wikipedia, it still incorporates the Wikipedia logo, but as a background element:

Although they describe the logo used by sep11.wikipedia.org logo in October 2005 as "the old wikipedia logo", they may be misremembering the logo (replaced on English Wikipedia 2 years ago at time of comment). Archived HTML of sep11.wikipedia.org does not include a sidebar anymore after 6 February 2004 (perhaps this was migrated to a separate iframe?) but this comment shows for sure that an "old Wikipedia logo" was still in use at least through October 2005.

At this link, there is also archived contemporary commentary from an apparently rather involved editor User:Trilobite who starts their comment by stating "It is indeed part of Wikipedia" then summarizing their impression of the state of the site as "forgotten" in that late era.

I'm not trying to stir up old drama, but as far as I can tell, the upload/wiki.png sep11.wikipedia.org logo should be included on the "Wikipedia Logo" page in some way.

— Hubcapp (talk) 22:54, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the interesting insights. I am however unsure if the logo was used intentionally. I found something interesting on Commons. The log for File:Wiki.png shows two interesting entries:

• protection, 11 July 2005: it's the sitewide logo in the upper left corner. Very bad if it were to get vandalized.
• deletion, 7 October 2005: block upload of local logos for other wikis. Commons now uses Image:Wiki-commons.png as the site-wide logo. See also Template:Deletion_requests#Image:Wiki.png.

commons:Commons:Deletion_requests/Archive/2005/09#Image:Wiki.png is also interesting. User:Dori wrote (25 September 2005):

Image:Wiki.png should be moved to a different name (already re-created at Image:Wiki-commons.png) as it currently is aliasing that name on every wiki project and therefore not allowing local logos on those projects. Tim has already changed the logo location, so it shouldn't break the commons logo, but we should wait about a week before moving it to give time for the caches to update. The logo is now hardcoded so there is no need to protect this specific image.

I don't know if the changes to logo location affected all wikis, or just Commons. Tim probably refers to User:Tim Starling.

If all wikis, including sep11wiki, used File:Wiki.png to store the logo, I think the blue logo we are now discussing got used on sep11wiki accidentally. Janhrach (talk) 16:23, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

I found out that in this capture, the logo had been set to http://sep11.wikipedia.org/images/wiki-sep11.png, and it remained there until the site was moved sep11memories.org ([6]). (Due to an error, the left bar is displayed at the bottom.) I found also out ([7]) that when a part of sep11wiki-related configuration was removed in 2012 (long after the shutdown of sep11wiki), the logo was set to http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/sep11/b/bc/Wiki.png. Janhrach (talk) 16:31, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

From the dumps, I see that shortly after the last capture, a new logo was uploaded (it has been mentioned above), which may explain why the configuration listed a logo that was neither at upload/wiki.png, nor at images/wiki-sep11.png. Janhrach (talk) 18:27, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for pinging me Janhrach. I do like digging through the archives. That logo is the "unnumbered proposal", added to the top of m:Logo suggestions in January 2002, after Cunctator's logo (#24 on that page) was already chosen. It is described as the "Mryan logo" on Commons. It was a Phase II upload, hence the lack of a subdirectory and lowercase initial letter. It was imported to m:File:Wiki.png by the conversion script, which copied the Phase II files, leaving them also at their original location. It seems likely to me that this logo was used on the September 11 wiki by accident. An upload to MediaWiki in 2003 definitely would not have resulted in a file being placed at /upload/wiki.png. The URL indicates a Phase II upload, and I don't think that software was ever used on the September 11 wiki. I am guessing that a misconfiguration of the September 11 wiki at its inception led to this logo being used, served from a directory shared with Meta. -- Tim Starling (talk) 11:29, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Many thanks! Happy holidays! Janhrach (talk) 17:03, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your insights!! Merry Christmas & Happy New Year 2025 :-)

So, I'm pretty convinced of these facts:

• This logo was not designed with 9/11 or sep11wiki in mind. It is not an "event logo" for Wikipedia.
• Given the logo's history (late unnumbered proposal, likely never formally accepted) and default location (m:File:Wiki.png), probably it was used on sep11wiki by accident.
• Whoever set up sep11wiki must have seen the logo, but might have assumed it was an approved general-use logo provided by Wikimedia by default. Perhaps they were thinking of something more important than the logo while setting up the "9/11 – In Memorium" wiki project...
• On the other hand, the logo was in fact used, apparently considered non-problematic for several months, likely years. Some sep11wiki users did complain about the logo, but no one in power seems to have cared and intervened.

If the sep11wiki logo is included on this article, I would personally probably present it under the "Historical Logos" section (similar to this). This might be in-line with the existing inclusion of French/Dutch/Spanish/Swedish Wikipedia logos under that section.

However, I think it might be more acceptable to omit it as not really relevant to the (intentional) history of approved Wikipedia logos which this article is concerned with, (even though it could be argued that its continued usage at sep11wiki was a type of informal approval). It can instead be documented as having been used as the "apparently accepted logo of Sep11wiki" at List_of_Wikipedias#September_11. Thanks to User:Janhrach and User:Tim Starling for your input. — Hubcapp (talk) 05:41, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

More trawling through old archive.org captures (anachronistically?) shows this Mryan logo being used on meta.wikipedia.org: https://web.archive.org/web/20030411224921/http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page However, in this case, archive.org is injecting a 4 month & 11 day old version of http://meta.wikipedia.org/upload/wiki.png captured on 1 December 2002, so it may not have been the Mryan logo by then.

However, the two closest "actual webpage archives" near capture of that image are at 26 November 2002 and 17 January 2003. These pages both link to upload/wiki.png, implying that between those dates, on at least 1 December 2002, the logo linked at the top left of meta-wiki would have been the Mryan logo captured at http://meta.wikipedia.org/upload/wiki.png, assuming there was no HTML change between those dates that changed the location of the image referenced (there is no evidence of that change having happened).

My understanding is that the way that Alexa crawled the internet back then, they would try to only save an image when it changed. Lack of a recorded capture presented by modern wayback.archive.org doesn't always mean that Alexa didn't visit the website and download the image, but it means they didn't make any record of it. If they downloaded an image and found that it was identical to the copy already on their tiny 2001 era HDDs, they might choose to discard it. The behaviour of the webscraping script changed over time; I'm not an expert on the historical behaviour of the Alexa webscraper & what is presented now on wayback.archive.org for the exact time period in question. This information about historical webscraping behaviour is important to note though, since the 1 December 2002 image capture presented by archive.org makes sense with the date of the provided "Phase II conversion script", which has a commit recorded on the same day related to importing images (on 1 December 2002). It is perhaps not a coincidence that both are on the same day; the Alexa scraping script may have detected a change on exactly this date (though surviving record of what came before is not provided as-of-now by wayback.archive.org). Similarly, it might be possible that 25 October 2003 was the actual date of the next change. It is approximately when a logo change should have happened, per the results of the International logo vote.

I'm more interested now in including this Mryan logo on this "Wikipedia logo" page, since apparently, it seems to have been used outside of Sep11 wiki, on the original incarnation of meta.wikipedia.org (on at least 1 December 2002, possibly until 25 October 2003). Sep11wiki was considered "Part of Wikipedia" (controversially in retrospect), but meta.wikipedia.org would become the Wikimedia foundation in June 2003 and is undeniably "Part of Wikipedia" (... foundational!). I think the Mryan logo might have been the default logo on the "Cologne Blue skin" mentioned at the 14 June 2003 "Do we need a new logo contest?" discussion (Is this the light blue skin used at Sep11 wiki?), and generally actually was a default logo unintentionally provided by (what would become) Wikimedia.

It can at least be said that every administrator who looked at this Mryan logo did not see any problem in it being used to represent Wikipedia, on official subdomains of wikipedia.org, at least on a temporary basis. Jimbo himself is quoted around this time as saying "I just wanted to weigh in and say that I don't much care [about whatever logo is used]". This is the environmental context that allowed the not-officially-approved Mryan logo to be used to represent Wikipedia on at least two subdomains.

The Mryan logo may have generally been the default logo for new wikis between Import on 1 December 2002 and Deletion on 7 October 2005, seeing actual usage on official subdomains representing themselves as part of the Wikipedia project... After writing all this, I even have found a third instance, apparently an Italian variant of the Mryan logo, used on http://test.wikipedia.org in early 2003 (but apparently not the actual contemporary Italian Wikipedia). This is a real logo that was used and considered canon prior to unification under the puzzle globe. It was iterated on and used officially regardless of accidental circumstance. I would like to present it in the following way, unless someone is able to find evidence that contradicts this history: (revision proposal image). I have not double-checked this history from the perspective of historic dumps provided modernly by Wikimedia. — Hubcapp (talk) 23:55, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

There is an important coincidence you have probably missed (or I have forgotten to mention it). The Mryan logo was originally uploaded as File:Wiki.png on meta. Later, File:Wiki.png was used as the default logo location for every wiki. There was no Commons at the time, so the contents of File:Wiki.png could have been specific for every wiki. (The Commons deletion request you mentioned presumably deleted a Commons logo located at File:Wiki.png, not the Mryan logo.) Therefore I think the usage of the Mryan logo on metawiki was a side effect of using File:Wiki.png as the default logo location. I don't know why was the logo copied to sep11wiki. (For more information about the usage of File:Wiki.png, see WP:VPT#Historical use of File:Wiki.png as the top-left logo; I was my mistake that I didn't mention it here.)

There is a record of the history of File:Wiki.png (i.e. its metawiki version) at https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:Wiki.png&offset=&limit=500.

I am convinced that all usage of the Mryan logo stems from the side effects of its original name.

Also, here is a good example of a Wayback anachronism from the time (I have mentioned it above): https://web.archive.org/web/20030308104133/https://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logo_suggestions. You can see that the first image should have been the Mryan logo (located at File:Wiki.png), but the actually displayed logo is this one, which is the version uploaded on 7 January 2006, per the file history I linked above. (It also couldn't have existed in March 2003, as it is based on a contestant for the Wikipedia logo in the second logo contest, which took place in July–August 2003.)

The unused itwiki logo may have been influenced by the (in my opinion, accidental) usage of the Mryan logo on metawiki.

I would object to including the Mryan logo in this page, per WP:OR. The length of this discussion itself is a good evidence of the nontriviality of the situation.

– Janhrach (talk) 12:06, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

You're correct to point out that WP:OR applies, particularly, WP:RSPRIMARY states that secondary sources are preferred over primary sources. The full story is a bit more complicated than just a link to https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:Wiki.png&offset=&limit=500 (though imo that would be enough to show that it was intentionally reverted to and used for a significant time on meta wiki). Here's the title of the article if any journalist wants to steal it: "How an Anonymous and Unapproved Logo Accidentally Was Embraced by Wikipedia". Regardless of the circumstance of the Mryan logo being used, once it was accidentally imported, it seems that no one in the community at the time challenged it, and in-fact it was used in multiple places and iterated on. — Hubcapp (talk) 14:35, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

I completely agree. I think the existence of the Gallery of logos section is, quite a bit, special treatment. That of course doesn't mean it needs to go; I think IAR should apply here. Janhrach (talk) 18:21, 28 December 2024 (UTC)