Talk:Casualties of the 2008 Mumbai attacks
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spreadsheet
[edit]http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=p_esnE-3Z3p-HehX1YOZIaw hope this is useful! --Thelostlibertine (talk) 03:39, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
- Very helpful, but where did the names come from? Remember (talk) 03:44, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
Citizens
[edit]Is this page just for the well known people or for anyone? I suggest a new section is made for the common citizens. ManishEarthTalk • Stalk 03:50, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
- It is for everyone. It should be a complete listing of all of the direct victims of the attacks. Remember (talk) 03:54, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
- Should I also include the name of the the Filipino national injured if name is revealed? Also, we oughta do something on the references once the situation's over in Mumbai. Ominae (talk) 18:51, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
I think the families of those killed might consider this information management somewhat disrespectful. I met personally the mexican victim and the news don't seem to be treating the topic in a respectful enough manner. They haven't even got the age of the victim right.
Sources fix
[edit]Can somebody please fix those sources? They need to include title, publisher, date, etc. Cyanidethistles (talk) {Tim C} 07:34, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
Sorry to ask but I cannot find a source to verify the death of Elizabeth Russel of Canada, could some one double check on that?
This article seems like a bad idea...
[edit]I'm not going to do anything about it now, as it would seem extremely callous to nominate this article for deletion while the story is still unfolding; but in cases of previous massacres and disasters, 'lists of victims' articles have been discouraged. The policy for this is WP:NOT#MEMORIAL, which dates back to the problems with such articles created after the 9/11 attacks. Once it seems like no more victims are likely to be reported, we should consider whether this is appropriate as an article in its own right, or whether it should be merged back into the main article. No offence is intended to the people who have been working on it. Terraxos (talk) 16:23, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
- maybe ... but some more are here as well:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/At_least_8_foreigners_dead_in_Mumbai_attacks/articleshow/3770297.cms?TOI_latestnews —Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.87.229.153 (talk) 17:14, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
- As I recall, WP:NOT#MEMORIAL applies to memorial articles about individuals, not events. iow, Wikipedia is not the place for obituary notices. Eventually I expect there will be an official list, likely by the Indian government, which we can refer to in the main article. Until then, this article is of some value IF the names are cited to reputable sources. Flatterworld (talk) 20:37, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
- Why are we listing safe people... That just seems like it will cause the list to become cluttered. We might aswell just add all the names of living people in Mumbai then. --156.34.80.231 (talk) 21:01, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
Rename and revamp
[edit]Currently, the name and nature of the article is to be a list of victims of the November 2008 Mumbai attacks. This is by and large a bad idea, as the sheer number of dead, let alone injured, would result in an extremely long list of mostly non-notable people and details, absolutely unsuitable for an encyclopedia. Let us be reminded that Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information or a memorial. While this may presently be a very difficult time for many Indians, let the proper physical and virtual memorials take care of the lists of names.
In accordance to the precedents set by articles like Casualties of the September 11 attacks and Casualties of the 11 March 2004 Madrid bombings, I propose we rename this article to Casualties of the November 2008 Mumbai attacks. The list of names should be removed, although the table of casualty nationalities should remain. Notable information on the victims can be added to this article, including distribution amongst the locations, demographics, and the such. Ariedartin JECJY Talk 19:32, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
Concur on Revamp
[edit]I agree that once there is an official and comprehensive source listing the casualties, that source can be referenced in the main article and this page can be deleted. For now, when most names are unknown, keeping a list of names helps maintain the nationality statistics. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Briansanders5 (talk • contribs) 21:15, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
Since you made this point - I'm going to repeat what I said on the talk page of the main article (forgot to sign off, "Singaporean/Chinese death" was me). I haven't found a source that can name the dead Chinese citizen (if there indeed was a Chinese death). CNN says one Chinese casualty, but that's the only place I've seen that claim, and there's no reference to a Singaporean casualty. The dead Singaporean is a Chinese Singaporean, and if CNN is basing its tally on ground reports instead of official tallies from the authorities, then they may have misreported the Singaporean as a Chinese citizen. We don't know yet, but can we please KIV this and edit when official reports come out. P (talk) 09:03, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
Holtzbergs
[edit]The Holtzbergs (at least the husband) have dual-nationality. ie he had both an American and an Israeli passport. Born in Israeli, had had lived in the US since pre-teen years and moved from the US to India. I recommend he be listed with both flags and be counted as both an Israeli and American casualty. i believe his wife fits the same criteria, although perhaps she only had a green card and no US passport -- but she did live for a long time in the US. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Briansanders5 (talk • contribs) 21:18, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
My solution was to create an Israeli-American section. Otherwise, I think we should count the dual citizens as Americans, since they all were coming from the US to India and had lived a long time in the US prior to going to India. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Briansanders5 (talk • contribs) 21:36, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
Do not Delete the article
[edit]for future references please do not delete the article's section. --Special:Contributions/Srkhan2 (talk) 19:57, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
Changing the title
[edit]I'm not sure how to change the title of the article, but "casualties of the nov 2008 mumbai attacks" seems like a good change as per the precedents listed above. Briansanders5 (talk) 00:11, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
Removed list
[edit]For those who were looking for the now removed list of victims, which was removed due to an afd, I am putting a copy of it below.
Name | Nationality | Age | Condition | Details | Source |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
Vishwas Nangre-Patil | ![]() |
Injured | Deputy commissioner of police | [1] | |
Sandeep Unnikrishnan | ![]() |
31 | Dead | NSG Major, at Taj Operation | [2] |
Niti Kang | ![]() |
40 | Dead | Taj GM Karambir Singh Kang's wife;found dead inside locked bathroom | [3] |
Uday Singh Kang | ![]() |
14 | Dead | Taj GM Karambir Singh Kang's son; found dead inside locked bathroom | [4] |
Samar Singh Kang | ![]() |
5 | Dead | Taj GM Karambir Singh Kang's son; found dead inside locked bathroom | [5] |
Sabina Sehgal Saikia | ![]() |
46 | Dead | found dead at the Taj Hotel | [6] |
Jasmine Bhurji | ![]() |
21 | Dead | Hotel Management trainee; hit by 3 bullets on the right arm while standing in Oberoi-Trident lobby[7] | [8] |
Maibam Bimolchandra Singh | ![]() |
30 | Dead | Killed in the attack on the Oberoi Trident | [9] |
Vijay Rao Bhanja | ![]() |
48 | Dead | Taj staff fatality | [10] |
Vijay Salaskar | ![]() |
Dead | Encounter specialist | ||
Kaizad Kadim | ![]() |
27 | Dead | Taj staff fatality | [11][12] |
Ashok Kamte | ![]() |
Dead | Additional Commissioner of Police | [13] | |
Boris do Rego | ![]() |
23 | Dead | Taj staff fatality | [14][15] |
Sadanand Date | ![]() |
Injured | 1990 batch IPS officer from the city and the additional commissioner of Mumbai police | [16] | |
Gajender Singh Bisht | ![]() |
Dead | NSG member, at Nariman House | [17] | |
Malayesh Bannerjee | ![]() |
27 | Dead | shot in the leg | [18] |
Lakshmi Narayan Goyal | ![]() |
57 | Dead | near Ville Parle | [19] |
Ashok Kapur | ![]() |
Dead | Unknown causes but found dead at Trident Oberoi. Chairman Yes Bank | [20] | |
Hemant Karkare | ![]() |
54 | Dead | Head of the Mumbai ATS | [21] |
Roopinder Randhawa | ![]() |
Dead | Teacher at GD Somani Memorial School | [22] | |
Shashank Shinde | ![]() |
Dead | Senior inspector GRP | [23] | |
M L Chaudhary | ![]() |
Dead | Head constable, Railway Protection Force | [24] | |
S K Sharma | ![]() |
Dead | Assistant Chief Ticket Officer | [25] | |
Monika Chhabria | ![]() |
Dead | shot dead at Trident Oberoi | [26] | |
Mr Chhabria | ![]() |
Dead | Husband of Monika Chhabria, shot dead at Trident Oberoi | [27] | |
Pankaj S Shah | ![]() |
Dead | Real estate developer, Satellite group, shot dead at Trident Oberoi | [28] | |
Alan Scherr | ![]() |
58 | Dead | shot in Oberoi Hotel | [29] |
Naomi Scherr | ![]() |
13 | Dead | was with father, shot in Oberoi | [29] |
Aryeh Leibish Teitlebaum | ![]() |
36 | Dead | hostage in the Chabad House | [30] |
Andi Varagona aka Rudrani Devi | ![]() |
Injured | shot in arm and leg | [31] [32] | |
Linda Ragsdale | ![]() |
Injured | underwent surgery for bullet wounds | [33] | |
Doug Markell | ![]() |
71 | Dead | Tauck guest | [34] [35] |
Brett Gilbert Taylor | ![]() |
49 | Dead | arrived at hospital dead | [36] |
Schmader Daffne | ![]() |
50 | Dead | killed at the Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus | [37][38] |
David Coker | ![]() |
23 | Injured | grazed by bullet | [39] |
Kate Anstee | ![]() |
24 | Injured | shot in leg at Leopold Cafe, femur fractured | [40] |
Michael Stert | ![]() |
73 | Dead | see hospital list from helpMumbai | [41] |
Ralph Burkei | ![]() |
51 | Dead | fell from the Taj hotel while trying to escape, died en route to hospital | [42] |
Steve Darfane | ![]() |
Dead | name on hospital roles, may be Australian (see above) | [43] | |
Juergan Hetras Rudolph | ![]() |
68 | Dead | arrived at hospital dead | [44] |
Benjamin Matthiys | ![]() |
26 | Injured | undergoing treatment | [44] |
Bornade Lite | ![]() |
Injured | undergoing treatment | [45] | |
Axel Nordmeier | ![]() |
- | Injured | at hospital | [44] |
Michael Moss | ![]() |
73 | Dead | Killed in the attack on the Taj | [46] |
Elizabeth Russel | ![]() |
65 | Dead | Killed in the attack on the Taj | [47] |
Helen Connolly | ![]() |
Injured | Grazed by bullet | [48] | |
Michael Rudder | ![]() |
55 | Injured | Genie Award-nominated actor; shot three times, stabilized at hospital | [49][50] |
Antonio Di Lorenzo | ![]() |
63 | Dead | from a grenade in the first phase of terrorist attack | [51] |
Uguarinni or Juarini[52] | ![]() |
62 | Dead | listed on hospital roles | [53] |
Loumia Hiridjee | ![]() |
47 | Dead | dining at Oberoi Trident | [54] |
Mourad Amarsy | ![]() |
Dead | wife also killed | [55] | |
Gavriel Noach Holtzberg | ![]() ![]() |
29 | Dead | hostage in the Chabad House | [56] |
Bentzion Kruman | ![]() ![]() |
28 | Dead | hostage in the Chabad House | [57] |
Rivka Holtzberg + her unborn child | ![]() |
26 | Dead | hostage in the Chabad House | [58] |
Yohevet Orpaz | ![]() |
60 | Dead | hostage in the Chabad House | [59] |
Andreas Dionysiou Liveras | ![]() ![]() |
73 | Dead | shot to death after making call from inside hotel | [60] |
Simon Hillias | ![]() |
55 | Injured | gunshot wounds to arm | [44][61][62] |
Vinay Jundwall | ![]() |
68 | Injured | broke leg jumping from hotel | [62] |
William Pike | ![]() |
28 | Injured | fell from his knotted sheets trying to escape; broke vertebrae, gunshot wounds? | [44] |
Michael Murphy | ![]() |
59 | Injured | shot in the ribs, in intensive care | [63] |
Diane Murphy | ![]() |
58 | Injured | shot in the foot | [64] |
Harsh Patel | ![]() |
29 | Injured | chest injuries; at hospital | [65] |
Orchiatala Lind | ![]() |
Injured | name on hospital roles | [66] | |
Hisashi Tsuda | ![]() |
38 | Dead | shot in the back of the leg, stomach and chest at the Trident hotel, died at hospital | [67] |
Tatsuya Kessoku | ![]() |
44 | Injured | see elevator story | [68] |
Chaitlall Gunness | ![]() |
57 | Dead | shot twice in the head at the Taj | |
Lo Hwei Yen | ![]() |
28 | Dead | found on 19th floor of the Oberoi; gunshot wounds in the head and abdomen | [69] |
Hema Kasipillay | ![]() |
51 | Dead | smoke inhalation; 6th floor of Taj | [70][71] |
Gehara Kanamani alias Jina | ![]() |
Dead | [72] | ||
Al Raisi Muneera Mohd | ![]() |
35 | Injured | [73] | |
Zadjali Miran Sahil | ![]() |
19 | Injured | [74] | |
Jihad Mihyar | ![]() |
Injured | hospitalized, but discharged | [75] | |
Maria Trossa | ![]() |
Injured | at hospital | [76] | |
Rafael Beaus | ![]() |
Injured | shot in leg (fractured femur). Pneumothorax | [77] | |
Shih Fung Chen | ![]() |
- | Injured | at hospital | [44] |
Oskari Pölhö | ![]() |
- | Injured | at hospital | [44] |
Arne Strømme | ![]() |
- | Injured | at hospital | [44] |
Eugene S. Tan | ![]() |
- | Injured | at hospital | |
Willem-Jan Berbers | ![]() |
57 | Dead | found on 4th floor of Taj Hotel | [78] |
Katherine Instee | ![]() |
- | Injured | at hospital | [44] |
Norma Schwartzblatt-Rabinowitz | ![]() |
50 | Dead | hostage in the Chabad House | [79] |
References
- ^ http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Pune/Police_officers_Date_Nangre-Patil_injured/articleshow/3766832.cms
- ^ http://www.utvi.com/specials/Mumbai%20Attacked/14550/2-nsg-men-killed--six-others-injured-.html
- ^ http://www.tribuneindia.com/2008/20081202/world.htm#8
- ^ http://www.tribuneindia.com/2008/20081202/world.htm#8
- ^ http://www.tribuneindia.com/2008/20081202/world.htm#8
- ^ http://www.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Mumbai/Journalist_Sabina_Saikia_dead_say_colleagues_/articleshow/3773052.cms
- ^ http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/mumbai-terror-attack-taj-gm-kang-gets-back-bodies-of-wife-2-sons/392377/
- ^ http://www.nowpublic.com/world/tears-and-fears-jasmine-bhurji-one-first-victims-mumbai-terror-attack
- ^ http://www.telegraphindia.com/1081129/jsp/guwahati/story_10181828.jsp
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- ^ http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-154427
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- ^ http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Three_top_cops_die_on_duty/articleshow/3762023.cms
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- ^ http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Pune/Police_officers_Date_Nangre-Patil_injured/articleshow/3766832.cms
- ^ http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Yes_Bank_chairman_Ashok_Kapur_found_dead_in_Oberoi_hotel/articleshow/3770334.cms?TOI_latestnews
- ^ http://news.asiaone.com/News/Latest%2BNews/Asia/Story/A1Story20081128-104104.html
- ^ Hindustan Times, Dec 2, 2008 (Page 4)
- ^ Three rly men killed in CST encounter
- ^ Three rly men killed in CST encounter
- ^ Three rly men killed in CST encounter
- ^ http://abhishek29468.wordpress.com/2008/11/29/operation-cyclone-india-inc-bollywood-mourn-the-dead/?referer=sphere_related_content/
- ^ http://abhishek29468.wordpress.com/2008/11/29/operation-cyclone-india-inc-bollywood-mourn-the-dead/?referer=sphere_related_content/
- ^ http://abhishek29468.wordpress.com/2008/11/29/operation-cyclone-india-inc-bollywood-mourn-the-dead/?referer=sphere_related_content/
- ^ a b http://www.wdbj7.com/Global/story.asp?S=9425587
- ^ "Israel: 6 bodies removed from Jewish center". The Associated Press. 2008-11-28. Retrieved 2008-11-28.
- ^ http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2008/nov/27/tennessee-women-injured-india-terrorist-attacks/
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- ^ http://www.waaytv.com/Global/story.asp?S=9426673
- ^ http://www.allnewsweb.com/page922922.php
- ^ http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/fears-of-four-australians-dead-as-commandos-storm-luxury-hotels-inmumbai/2008/11/28/1227491767403.html
- ^ http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/story/0,21598,24719590-5005521,00.html and http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=p_esnE-3Z3p-HehX1YOZIaw
- ^ http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/story/0,21598,24719590-5005521,00.html and http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=p_esnE-3Z3p-HehX1YOZIaw
- ^ http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Mumbai/Of_58_killed_at_terminus_22_were_Muslims/articleshow/3785932.cms
- ^ http://www.dispatch.co.za/article.aspx?id=274863
- ^ http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/73250/British-tycoon-dead-in-Mumbai
- ^ http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/story/0,21598,24719590-5005521,00.html and http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=p_esnE-3Z3p-HehX1YOZIaw
- ^ http://www.hindu.com/2008/11/28/stories/2008112854911900.htm and http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/11/27/asia/28mumbai.php
- ^ http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/story.aspx?id=NEWEN20080074486
- ^ a b c d e f g h i "13 foreigners died in Mumbai: MHA". Retrieved 30 November 2008. Cite error: The named reference "NDTV 13 dead" was defined multiple times with different content (see the help page).
- ^ http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/story.aspx?id=NEWEN20080074487
- ^ http://news.aol.ca/article/2-canadians-killed-in-mumbai-attacks/438201%7C2 Canadians Killed in Mumbai Attacks
- ^ http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/11/28/mumbai-canadians.html
- ^ http://www.tennessean.com/article/20081202/NEWS01/812020340/1002
- ^ http://www.cjad.com/news/565/835099
- ^ http://www.cbc.ca/arts/film/story/2008/11/27/mumbai-actor-shot.html
- ^ http://www.avionews.com/index.php?corpo=see_news_home.php&news_id=1097164&pagina_chiamante=index.php
- ^ http://www.telegraphindia.com/1081129/jsp/jharkhand/story_10182204.jsp and http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Mumbai/IIT_graduate_was_to_marry_next_week/articleshow/3766907.cms
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- ^ http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/3771295.cms%7C At least 17 foreigners dead in Mumbai attacks
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{{cite news}}
: Check|url=
value (help); Missing or empty|title=
(help) - ^ http://www.nst.com.my/Sunday/Frontpage/2415809/Article/index_html.
{{cite news}}
: Missing or empty|title=
(help) - ^ http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/story.aspx?id=NEWEN20080074486
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Removed list 2
[edit]The result of the AFD nomination was no consensus. So you decided on your own initiative to remove the list over which the fighting was about. Again, the result was no consensus, however, 21 users were for KEEP while 17 were for DELETE, not counting those whose votes were MERGE, in any case, a majority was not for the deletion of the list, over which, again, the fight was about. They way you conducted yourself would seem as the DELETE votes won, even though they were a minority. The name of this article is List of victims of the November 2008 Mumbai attacks, how can it be a list if you delete the list?89.216.236.45 (talk) 00:02, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
I was the one who closed the AFD, read it closer, most of the keeps were because of invalid reasoning, there was consensus to remove the list of names, just not the article. Secret account 16:37, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
- I'm not sure where you came up with consensus to remove the names. My point was that the data has been of various dubious accuracy. Rarely, has the number of deaths on the main page agreed with the number of deaths in the article agreed with the number of deaths in the casuality article agreed with the number of deaths in the casuality tables. For example, all of wikipedia's tables indicate that 4 Americans were killed, but I have never in Wikipedia or any other source heard who the 4th American was. This list of names of people who have died is the only thing that tells us this information is suspect. Aepryus (talk) 20:13, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
- Also, in addition to the phantom 4th American there is a Jordanian listed as being killed, without any sourcing. A cursory search of google news did not seem to indicate any references to a Jordanian being killed. The first source listed for the 4 Americans doesn't seem to state anything about 4 American's dying. The second source which comes from a Turkish newspaper references a very early statement by a state department official saying he believes 6 Americans were killed (including the 2 Israeli-Americans); I suspect the "6th" he may have been referring to would be the rabbi's wife who was a permanent American resident. In any case, I have not seen anywhere any stories concerning who the 4th American would be. Unless, someone can find some sources, I would recommend removing 1 American death and the Jordanian death and setting the foreign death count to 28 (which would agree with the list above). Aepryus (talk) 12:39, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
Requested move
[edit]"The main targets of the attack appeared to be Americans, Britons, Australians and Jews"
[edit]According to self-centered Western media at least... suburbs? movie theater? And weren't most of the people killed at the train station? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.184.166.238 (talk) 17:19, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
Restore list of names
[edit]Reading this years after the event, and the debates, I cannot agree that there was a "consensus" at the AFD to remove that list of names. I would support seeing it restored, and the sourcing improved.E.M.Gregory (talk) 20:28, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
- Why? §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {Talk / Edits} 09:19, 15 December 2015 (UTC)