Talk:List of terrorist incidents in January–June 2011

new criteria NEED OTHER OPINIONS

reviewing the section above im paraphrasing what we need. the time is now to put your input as consensus cant wait forever.

some background info:

Tactics_of_terrorism wherein the nuts and bolts of the commission of terror are examined

Terrorism#Types_of_terrorism wherein the types of terror are examined

Definition_of_terrorism wherein dozens of definitions of what terrorism is are listed.

and also preliminary suggested criteria which can and probably should be reviewed/changed/ehnanced

1. Acts by designated groups could also count. (though wed need to set designated by whom)
2. Acts labeled terrorism
3. Acts with political intent (as adjudged by the RS even without the specific term "terrorist")
4. and of course consensus on talk for controversial additions (not statements of "policy"(Lihaas (talk) 23:10, 21 January 2011 (UTC)).

I've actually decided to spare a few minutes and read the article. The problems are many. Editors have managed to divide terrorist acts by non-state and state actors. This is suspect because countries are not terrorist organizations and cannot be placed in the same category as Al Qaeda or the Taliban. But this is precisely what editors have concocted here in blatant violation of basic guidelines and general logic. No reliable sources exist to support this content. List of terrorist incidents, 2010 should serve as a template for future terrorist list-related articles. Wikipedia is not a blog and editors shouldn't be allowed to treat it like their own personal soap box. Wikifan12345 (talk) 03:41, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

First, appreciate your response here

Secondly, designated terrorist organisations are NOT the only ones able to perpetrate terrorism, that fact being one of the main reasons discussed here (note the columns were not unilaterally added here but suggested on talk first) Terrorist, as defined in numerous and sometime controversial wats, apparently varies. the FBI definition listed in John Pynchon Holms is post-Sept 11 "Terrorism: Todays Biggest Threat to Freedom" suggests terrorism as "force or violence...to intimidate or coerce...in furtherance of political or socal objectives"

While that can never be the factual accurate alone for its state biases (the FBI is a state institution), it is an also academically notable definition in reference to political goals.(Lihaas (talk) 08:03, 22 January 2011 (UTC)).

That doesn't really address my original point of editors ignoring reliable sources and not adhering to basic editing guidelines. Why didn't editors simply re-create another List article in the same vein as List of terrorist incidents, 2010, List of terrorist incidents, 2009, List of terrorist incidents, 2008....?. Wikifan12345 (talk) 09:02, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

Wikifan - We tried to have this discussion above. A number of arguments were presented for the current arrangement and against having a "List of Terrorist Incidents". You didn't respond there and now you have started a new discussion with the same assertions you made above. Please address the arguments. I will present them again below, each with a subsection. Could you respond to each of these - tell me if you agree or if you see a counter argument? Add more sub-sections if there are arguments you think I missed. filceolaire (talk)

Lihaas, I would highly recommend that you read the policy for a RfC at WP:RFC and following the guidelines for creating a proper RfC. Your obvious lack of a summary of past discussion and what is inhibiting consensus is only compounded worse by the amount of material on this talk page. This page is already long enough for an editor that is trying to contribute and they should not have to be stuck and basically just declare TLDR, and skip adding input completely. Also given the fact that you don't specifically reference what exactly you are requesting comment on, this basically just starts a new discussion between editors currently involved. If you can edit your original statement, or remove the {{pol}} template and create a new section with a proper RfC template, you may be substantially more successful with your request. Ltcb2412 (talk) 09:24, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Wikifan. My favorite definition of terrorism is the one proposed by Boaz Ganor: "Terrorism is the deliberate use of violence aimed against civilians in order to achieve political ends." If Taliban, Haqqani Network, and al-Qaeda members are freedom fighters, than Anders Behring Breivik is also a freedom fighter, and yet Wikipedia calls him "Norwegian terrorist." According to the Geneva Conventions all military forces including guerrillas must wear uniforms or distinctive clothing so that it is clear that they are combatants. Taliban, Haqqani Network, and al-Qaeda are, according to the Geneva Conventions, terrorists, because they do not wear distinctive clothing and they hide among the civilian population. During WWII American and British troops shot such terrorists on the spot - no military trial was necessary. Excerpt from Third 1949 Geneva Convention: "if resistance movements are to benefit by the Convention, they must respect the four special conditions contained in sub-paragraphs (a) to (d)... '(b) that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance' (30): for partisans a distinctive sign replaces a uniform... and must be worn constantly, in all circumstances..." source: http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/COM/375-590007?OpenDocument Quinacrine (talk) 22:35, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Other sources are inconsistent in what they call terrorism

The Criterion used in the 2010 list is that incidents would only be included if someone called the incident terrorism. The problem with this was that in most cases people call an incident terrorism in order to condem it so that is POV. Those Reliable sources which strive for a neutral POV tend not to use the Terror label. The Wikileaks cables can be called a terrorist incident, because Joe Biden said so, but shootings in Pakistan can't because the BBC doesn't use that label. This was felt to be unsatisfactory. filceolaire (talk)

Joe Biden is not an authority on terrorism. Comprehensive lists and reports of terrorist organizations exist provided by world bodies (EU, UN, USA, etc...) and those should be used as guidelines. Suicide bombings, deliberate attacks on civilians, or acts of violence by terrorist groups don't need to be discussed or debated. Really, 95% of all incidents are easily verifiable. Wikifan12345 (talk) 00:57, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

the list boave in this section should suggest criteria we are suuggesting that you can and should and are welcome to comment on.

to say really anything "don't need to be discussed or debated" will nevber help your view. abd then we also need a criteria for the other 5%(Lihaas (talk) 01:29, 24 January 2011 (UTC)).

You say Joe Biden is not an authority on terrorism then say the USA is a reliable source for deciding what is terrorism. Is everything a terrorist organisation does terrorism? If the EU, UN, USA have lists that you believe we could follow then post links to these lists so we can consider them. Are there lists by other regional groups? You say 95% of incidents can easily be classified and yet the start of the year saw constant arguing right here over what could be included with many incidents which appeared to meet your criteria having to be left out because no RS used the terror label. Please set out your argument so we can consider it. filceolaire (talk) 22:20, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

ditto, said it time and time again that we cant wait for someone else to label as such with all their inherent biases(Lihaas (talk) 02:40, 26 January 2011 (UTC)).

To create our own criteria would be Original Research

The other strategy suggested was for Wikipedia to come up with a set of objective criteria of our own for what can be included in a List of Terrorist incidents. Effectively we are coming up with our own definition of terrorism or siding with one of the many existing definitions and against all the others. That is Original Research. filceolaire (talk) 15:53, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

I digress on the grounds that we are using RS sourced criteria per those wikipages which would not be OR. The key being we need some criteria for inclusion to avoid this debate every year.(Lihaas (talk) 01:30, 24 January 2011 (UTC)).

In practice we don't seem to have had much problems with deciding what to include since the name changed. filceolaire (talk) 22:22, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

I was the one who proposed the title we have now, only because it is the exact same title as seen in the Portal:Current events which I edit regularly. We get by there without complaint if we choose to put an article in the Armed conflicts and attacks section or elsewhere. Here is what the outline of the category was when Blue Crest suggested the title- "Armed Conflicts & Attacks--including warfare, terrorism (including most bombings), genocides, organized rioting which involves violence on either side (e.g. Iran & Thailand), coup d'tats, martial law declarations, most assassinations, etc. Does not include random acts of violence or most murders (that would be Law & Crime)." The full discussion can be found here...minus the martial law part I think its pretty good.Passionless -Talk 02:12, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Any set of criteria would mean many incidents would be excluded

Another problem with creating objective criteria for calling something terrorism is that Original Research would be needed to establish many of the suggested criteria e.g. if the motive was political or criminal. If the motivation is unknown (as in the recent Tucson shooting) then - guessing what the motivation is would be OR. Even criteria such as whether the perpetrator was a state or a non-state actor is not always clear. In practice we would have to exclude a lot of incidents which probably are terrorism because we couldn't prove they are. Expanding the list to cover other sorts of incident means incidents can be included here even if information is incomplete with additional information added when it is confirmed. filceolaire (talk) 15:53, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

1. per above section just beofre this

for unknown wed leave it blank till then as you (?) suggested above with good reason.

stqte vs. non-state is usually clear, for the few instances (conspiracy theories) a discussion here should do. (again one o f the criteria was to leave this page open for those rare instances)

expanding the list broadly is what i had a prob about and it seems others like wikifan.(Lihaas (talk) 01:34, 24 January 2011 (UTC)).

Having a list for terrorist incidents gives Undue Weight to this type of incident

Expanding the list to cover other types of violent attacks also means that other incidents can be included here - such as school shootings, serious criminal attacks such the Kingston troubles last year, actions by states. To list only one sort of incident while excluding others seems to give undue weight to the incidents included. This is remedied by including a broader range of incidents. filceolaire (talk) 15:53, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

States are not terrorist organizations. Wikifan12345 (talk) 00:59, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

thats exactly what we need to keep out, random hshootings.

per wikifan, the definition of terrorism and the page is NOT only about terrorist organisation. thats really they key here. there was discussion about to include state and non-state terrorism. if your suggestion is on that, then you should contribute to a discussion of the definition of terrorism.(Lihaas (talk) 01:37, 24 January 2011 (UTC)).

I'm not suggesting states cannot terrorize countries or populations. But the general consensus is sovereign nations shouldn't be placed in the same category as say...the Taliban or Al Qaeda. I'm not opposed to including states, but naturally any acts of terror would have to be verifiable and supported by reliable sources. I cannot emphasize this enough. I'm looking at the ref in the article and as far as I can tell none even suggest operations carried out by the CIA qualifies as terrorism in the same tradition of Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups mentioned alongside. Wikifan12345 (talk) 16:36, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Weren't the Taliban the government of Afghanistan at one time? Why should there be a page devoted to non-state parties when the people killed by states are just as dead? What is so special about terrorism that it deserves a special page? What is wrong with having a page that includes various types of incident? Why do we need to keep out the Tucson shooting and other similar incidents? Why don't we include them in the list but not call them terrorism? That's 6 questions. I would be grateful for any responses to any of them. filceolaire (talk) 22:37, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

This article should solely be about terrorism if it to be part of the List of terrorist incidents family. Everything from here to [1] should be removed. The conflicts have nothing to do with terrorism or 2011. I can't stress this enough. Wikifan12345 (talk) 01:50, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Terrorism is only a part of this article, I can not stress this enough, whether state or not state it does not matter. Please see my addition to the section above -"To create our own criteria would be Original Research". Passionless -Talk 02:17, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Wikifan's comments here are completely unsubstantiated based "it should be" says who? its not going to be so b./c you want it alone.

not sure about "But the general consensus is sovereign nations shouldn't be placed in the same category as say" can you then point us to the consensus?(Lihaas (talk) 02:38, 26 January 2011 (UTC)).

Mainstream sources are very explicit about terrorism and terrorist incidents. This article is a radical change from the norm. The burden of proof rests against editors who want to change the status quo. I've asked numerous times if anyone here can show one RS that includes the CIA or US military alongside Al Qaeda or the Taliban. And like I said before, most of the article is not about terrorism or 2011. I'd say a lot of the edits are consistent with WP:SYN. Wikifan12345 (talk) 03:22, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Lol, burden of proof, we in wikicourt now? a rough consensus-found in the top half of this talk page- was made after a long discussion which led to the change in the title and article content, you are the one wanting to make these '"radical change(s)". here's the CIA/US military as a terrorist organization and the Taliban was the government of Afghanistan for 5 years before the US attacked Afghanistan. Passionless -Talk 03:37, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Where is this consensus you speak of? The CIA and US military are not terrorist organizations, not in the sense Al Qaeda is. Any editor trying pushing that perspective in an encyclopedia should read WP:NPOV. The Iranian parliament is not a reliable source. The source could only support Iran's POV. Passion, honestly - what is the point of including conflicts that are not about terrorism in an article about terrorism in 2011? Wikifan12345 (talk) 04:25, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

theres really no point in going in the same cyclical arguements time and time aagain,. yet another disucussion for criteria has evolved into FOUR subsections and its going nowhere. right now it seems only wikifan is of his view with all others opposint per [[WP:CONSENSUS CAN CAHNGE.(Lihaas (talk) 07:48, 26 January 2011 (UTC)).

Can you actually respond to my complaints above? No consensus has been reached. I have not violated any consensus. The article was created unilaterally. I am not the only one who has an issue with this article. The ANI filed by Passion was dismissed. Two admins not involved in the dispute did not agree with the unsubstantiated accusations made against my presence in the article. IF editors cannot prove their contributions with reliable sources then I think this dispute should be exported to Wiki project terrorism. The January section includes SYNTH. Editors have not shown a single RS that supports the belief that the US military is a terrorist organization in the same manner Al Qaeda is. Do you really want to move this dispute to OR board? Wikifan12345 (talk) 09:02, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

This statement by wikifan-"what is the point of including conflicts that are not about terrorism in an article about terrorism in 2011?" shows he is just trying to be beligerent and not trying to work with other editors. Claims that "The article was created unilaterally." is just nonsense-neither me or Lihaas-the two who can put up with you and support the move- moved the article to its new title. "Passion and Lihaas clearly (have) a POV interest"- assuming bad faith won't get you far or gain you friends. Passionless -Talk 19:38, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

I haven't assumed bad faith and you're taking my comments out context. This isn't a personal dispute. At least not from my perspective. I ask you again, can you please show me a single reliable source that claims the US military is capable of committing terrorist acts in the same way Al Qaeda does? I keep hearing about this consensus but I don't see any. Could you please link me to this consensus? And yes, this article was created unilaterally and is barely recognizable in contrast with the 30 other List of terrorist incidents articles. Two uninvolved admins have dismissed your accusations against me here, so I suggest you refrain from the personal attacks. Wikifan12345 (talk) 00:44, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

You are right that this is not a list of terrorist incidents and so it should not be included with the other 30 such lists. I will remove that nav box. There was a discussion here before this page was renamed and expanded. It's in the Renaming section above. The similarity between the US army and Al Qaeda is that they both attack people with bombs. The difference is that the US army drops the bombs from airplanes and is backed by a state while Al Qaeda delivers the bombs by hand and is a terrorist organisation. There are similarities and there are differences. A list is better than a category because we can include a description of the incident which clarifies this in a way that a Category:Terrorist incident label cannot. filceolaire (talk) 22:22, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

The article places the US military in the same category as Al Qaeda. Now, unless editors can find one reliable source to support that edit, then it should be removed immediately. It's been almost a week and no source has been given. In fact, a lot of the article is unverifiable. There is not one source from here to here. That's 2/3 of the article's content. So Filceo, since you concede that the article is not part of the List of terrorist incidents family, would you support removing the re-direct and moving terrorist incidents to a unique article that is solely about terrorism? Similar to List of terrorist incidents, 2010? Wikifan12345 (talk) 23:43, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

I still support deleting the Category:Terrorist incident and renaming all pages from 1970-2010 to match the new format. And for the source you asked for I did give it to you, you rejected it because you did not like to be proved wrong, I would be a fool to believe giving you another source would please you. Passionless -Talk 23:50, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Passion, what new format do you speak of? The source you gave does not support the claim that the CIA is a terrorist organization like Al Qaeda. I was very explicit in my response:

The Iranian parliament is not a reliable source. The source could only support Iran's POV. Passion, honestly - what is the point of including conflicts that are not about terrorism in an article about terrorism in 2011?

Here is what wikipedia has to say on how content is written:

All material in Wikipedia articles must be attributable to a reliable published source. This means that a source must exist for it, whether or not it is cited in the article. Wikipedia must never be a first publisher.

See WP:ORIG and WP:VERIFY. Unless you understand how to use reliable sources and cite them appropriately, it is pointless to allow this discussion to continue. The article should be locked to registered users and the conflict should be mediated by a third party. I suggest we collectively file a request at medcab and notice at RS board. I don't want to see this dispute dragged into arbitration enforcement. Wikifan12345 (talk) 00:33, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Wikifan, You propose calling in mediation and arbitration and locking the article over our civil discussion about content and presentation. Arbitration enforcement deals with uncivil behaviour. They don't do content disputes. Content disputes are dealt with by editors working together to create better articles than any one editor could on their own.

Above I listed 4 problems with the List of terrorist articles format. If you want to influence what happens here then you need to come up up with some suggestions for fixing those 4 problems and show how your suggestions are better than the solution we have come up with here. "There are 20 other pages with the same problems" is an argument for changing those pages, not an argument for changing this page to match them.

I would ask that you do not start a WP:FORK of this page. Instead I suggest you start a new section below with your suggestions for this page and the how they would improve the page: Why it would be better to have Terrorism in the title; Why it would be better to have different types of incident in different articles etc. etc. The current format does seem a bit unwieldy and I'm sure it could be improved. filceolaire (talk) 20:30, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

A similar list for murders

I think there should be a similar list to include the articles in the Category:Mass murder by year. And that list should be linked in this article at "See also". These things look too similar to me: people with guns killing innocents because they are angry. —  Ark25  (talk) 03:47, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Should this article be renamed?

The article (and related ones) includes "terrorist incidents" in the title, but it appears to just be a list of violent incidents where people died that are not all terrorism related. No reasonable person could argue, for example, that the US Navy Seal raid on Osama bin Laden's compound was a terrorist action.Canine virtuoso (talk) 21:47, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

Global terrorism database

https://www.start.umd.edu/gtd/search/Results.aspx?start_month=0&end_month=12&start_year=2011&end_year=2011&start_day=0&end_day=31

RfC: terrorist incidents list criteria

 You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:List of terrorist incidents#RfC: List criteria. – Levivich 17:55, 10 August 2019 (UTC)