Talk:List of presidents of the United States

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Frequently asked questions

This section is here to provide answers to some questions that have been previously discussed on this talk page.
Note: This FAQ is only here to let people know that these points have previously been addressed, not to prevent any further discussion of these issues.

To view an explanation to the answer, click the [show] link to the right of the question.

General Concerns and Questions

Q1: John Hanson was actually the first president.

A1: John Hanson was the first President of the Continental Congress to serve a term under the Articles of Confederation. This office is different from President of the United States, which was only created after the US Constitution took effect in 1789.

Related Talk discussions: [1], [2], [3], [4], [5]

Q2: __________ was acting president for a short time, why isn't he on the list?

A2: A period during which a vice-president or other person temporarily becomes Acting President under the Twenty-fifth Amendment is not a presidency, because the president remains in office during such a period.

Related Talk discussions: [6], [7], [8]

Q3: Grover Cleveland is listed twice, William McKinley was actually the 24th president.

A3: Cleveland served two non-consecutive terms, so while McKinley was in fact the 24th person to serve as president, Cleveland was both the 22nd and 24th president. Or another way: the next president after Benjamin Harrison was the 24th president. It should also be noted that almost all reference materials enumerate Cleveland in this way.

Related Talk discussions: [9], [10], [11], [12]

Q4: Harry Truman's middle name was "S". Since it's not an initial, it should not have the period after it.

A4: Harry Truman's middle name was in fact S; however, most reference materials still use the period. Truman himself signed his own name as "Harry S. Truman". Both with or without the period may be regarded as correct.

Related Talk discussions: [13], [14], [15], [16]

Q5: Democratic is an adjective. Presidents of this party should be listed as the noun, "Democrat".

A5: The correct name of the political party is the Democratic Party. In this case, the adjective is used to describe the party, which is what the list is showing. Note that Democrat Party can be seen as an epithet - see Democrat Party (epithet).

Related Talk discussions: [17]

Q6: Please add another column to the list for ___________.

A6: Every effort was made to show the most sought-after information in a concise table. Those interested in president lists based on other criteria should see Template:Lists of US Presidents and Vice Presidents.

Related Talk discussions: [18], [19], [20], [21], [22], [23], [24]

Q7: I have an issue with one of the pictures used.

A7: It is recommended that the same picture from the president's individual article infobox be used on this list by default. However, any clear view of the face will work since the pictures are so small. Keep in mind that some images on external sites may be subject to copyright, and therefore difficult to bring into Wikipedia. If you have a specific concern about an image, feel free to discuss it here.

Related Talk discussions: [25], [26], [27], [28], [29], [30], [31], [32], [33], [34], [35], [36], [37]

List of presidents of the United States is a featured list, which means it has been identified as one of the best lists produced by the Wikipedia community. If you can update or improve it, please do so.

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March 3, 2021	Peer review	Reviewed
September 9, 2022	Featured list candidate	Promoted
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List of Presidents of the United States

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Biden & Trump portrait crops[edit]

Why do the Biden and Trump entries use extremely close crops of their portraits, when all other recent presidents are represented by their uncropped official portraits? We should probably stick to the uncropped official portraits for Biden and Trump, or switch to super narrow crops for all the other recent presidents, rather than the current arbitrary switch. Unless there's some good reason for this inconsistency? ∴ ZX95 ^[discuss] 00:47, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Presidential Numbering: Biden is NOT the 46th President of the United States[edit]

Sources are uniform in referring to Biden as the 46th president, double counting Grover Cleveland, and we will continue to follow the sources. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:04, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

If this has been discussed before, please direct me to the proper discussion.

This is a discussion that affects many pages, but this felt like the most central place to discuss it.

The way we do presidential numbering is simply wrong. For example, the sentence "Joe Biden is the 46th President of the United States" is just objectively incorrect. He is the 45th president. He is the 45th person to serve as president, therefore he is the 45th president. That's what those words mean. There is no other way to interpret that. You can get away with saying something like "Joe Biden is president number 46" or "Joe Biden served the 46th presidency of the United States" because they refer to more abstract concepts like presidencies, but if you say "46th president" that is referring to presidents, who are PEOPLE. There have only been 45 PEOPLE who were president of the US, so the numbering CANNOT go above 45. Grover Cleveland is not two people! Finnigami (talk) 18:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Grover Cleveland served two presidencies..source .Moxy-

21:26, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm well aware of that fact, which should be clear from the last sentence of my post, "Grover Cleveland is not two people!" The point remains that though they may have been 46 "presidencies" so far (although honestly it also seems arbitrary to me that two terms dont count as two presidencies if they're sequential, but that's beside the point in this case) there have certainly not been 46 presidents, because each president is a person and there have only been 45 people who have been president! Finnigami (talk) 06:23, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Regardless of how right you think you are, surely you can recognize that the vast, vast, vast, vast, vast majority of sources refer to Biden as the 46th. You need substantial evidence to counter something like that, and logic alone is insufficient. --Golbez (talk) 03:05, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, unfortunately I may have put this topic in the wrong place. There are two different ways to talk about such things. The way this article talks about it, in terms of providing abstract "numbering" for presidents, is technically correct and falls within convention. HOWEVER, the statements used in other articles, such as "Joe Biden is the 46th President of the United States" are simply, objectively, categorically incorrect. Finnigami (talk) 06:21, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"HOWEVER, the statements used in other articles, such as "Joe Biden is the 46th President of the United States" are simply, objectively, categorically incorrect." And the vast, vast, vast, vast majority of sources disagree with you. We need more than "Finnigami's logic" to overturn that, regardless of how right you might be. If this is a fight you want to wager, godspeed, but this isn't the place to do it. --Golbez (talk) 14:29, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, the sources agree with me, 100%. They all agree on the order of presidents, and who was who. And they all agree that there have been 45 total presidents. Finnigami (talk) 16:53, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Cleveland is counted as the 22nd & 24th president, due to having served non-consecutive terms. GoodDay (talk) 03:19, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm well aware of that fact, which should be clear from the last sentence of my post, "Grover Cleveland is not two people!" The point remains that though they may have been 46 "presidencies" so far (although honestly it also seems arbitrary to me that two terms dont count as two presidencies if they're sequential, but that's beside the point in this case) there have certainly not been 46 presidents, because each president is a person and there have only been 45 people who have been president! I'll say it again: Grover Cleveland is not two people! Finnigami (talk) 06:24, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You're wasting time on this, TBH. Should you doubt my word? Open this discussion up at Joe Biden's talkpage & see how it goes. GoodDay (talk) 16:55, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To me it seems rather silly to suggest that because a discussion will most likely have a certain conclusion, that the discussion isn't even worth having. Finnigami (talk) 16:59, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

IMHO, you're wasting editors' time. GoodDay (talk) 17:02, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just because you don't agree with something doesn't mean its a waste of time to even discuss. That is a very dismissive view of other editor's inputs. Finnigami (talk) 17:06, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

While we're at it, Yellow Corporation's trucks were actually orange. Therefore the article should be renamed "Orange Corporation"...I guess? Woko Sapien (talk) 16:34, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

On the contrary, an accurate analogy would be to say that, even though the same of the company is "Yellow Corporation," the article should say that the trucks are orange. Which it should. That is what I am arguing for: that the article should describe reality, rather than simply aligning with an inaccurate tradition. But what you are insisting is analogous to changing the article to say that the trucks are yellow, even though they are orange, simply because of the standard official name "Yellow Corporation". Thank you for providin this illuminating analogy that supports my argument! Finnigami (talk) 16:56, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And this article already clarifies that incongruity perfectly well:

Since the office was established in 1789, 45 men have served in 46 presidencies...Grover Cleveland served two non-consecutive terms and is therefore counted as the 22nd and 24th president of the United States, giving rise to the discrepancy between the number of presidencies and the number of individuals who have served as president.

I think GoodDay said it best, make a formal proposal if you feel that strongly about it. Otherwise, this isn't a constructive debate. Woko Sapien (talk) 17:15, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not seeing any possibility of a consensus forming for what's being proposed. Recommend (per WP:NOTFORUM) that this discussion be closed down. GoodDay (talk) 07:01, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Seconded. Woko Sapien (talk) 17:17, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Using two images for Grover Cleveland[edit]

I find it a bit odd that the same image used for Cleveland's non-consecutive terms. Surely we can find one image from his first term and another image from his second and use both respectively instead of just one image. I expect this to be the case in the scenario if Trump is re-elected in 2024 as well.

Maybe use this for the first term and the current for the second term?

HadesTTW (he/him • talk) 18:59, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Gallery in the lead[edit]

Per List of prime ministers of the United Kingdom, I've added this gallery of four notable presidents to the lead of the article, which fits this article better than an image of the White House. I am establishing a consensus here to see what others think, but the gallery option seems to be preferred elsewhere (e.g. the list of UK PMs article). ThingsCanOnlyGetWetter (talk) 14:53, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Whether to include such a gallery requires consensus here first, as would a consensus concerning which presidents to include in it. Drdpw (talk) 18:52, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that would be the best thing to do, which is why I took it to the talk page as well. So to begin, if a consensus is reached, which presidents should be used? --ThingsCanOnlyGetWetter (talk) 19:05, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

First, how about we answer the question, Do we wish to change from a single article-top image, currently the north side of the White House, to a gallery of multiple U.S. presidents? Drdpw (talk) 19:56, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]