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BLPN

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There is a discussion about this list at the Biographies of Living Persons Noticeboard, here.Anythingyouwant (talk) 04:16, 6 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Siad Barre dispute

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To find a consensus we need to discuss the issue here. Can you tell me why you think he[Siad Barre] needs to be adde twice in the list of Presidents of Somalia, as president and as party leader. You know that that table is only about the Presidents. Only the party name and ideology changed in 1976. Siad Barre was the President of Somalia between 1969 and 1991. So it's not needed to add that twice. Regards. Runehelmet (talk) 17:39, 21 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Interim President

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Per the Office of the Somali Parliament [1], Muse Hassan Sheikh Sayid Abdulle is both the "Interim Speaker of Parliament and the President of the Republic of Somalia until Somalia elects a new Speaker and a President." This is also why the Puntland government released a statement wherein it described Sharif Ahmed as the "former TFG President", since the TFG's mandate already expired [2]. Middayexpress (talk) 19:45, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It's not consistent with press coverage, though, what little there is. I did a little digging. somaligov.net is registered to:


All of which seems a little suspicious. Check out the Google Street View of the address – an unlabeled green door of a storefront with a partially boarded-up window next to a Halal grocery in what looks like a run-down neighborhood. We don't know the date of the picture, etc., but it's unlikely to have changed much. Note the email address, too. The site is hosted at an Ohio rackfarm.
Also have a look at www.somaligov.so, which is similar, but not identical. It's hosted at a Texas rackfarm.
This article says Ahmed is still president. Another (at AllAfrica I think) mentions Abdulle as interim speaker, but not president, and President ... Ahmed as an "outgoing member of the TFG", but with no mention of when he is to be outgoing.
Given the variable control of the government of a variable amount of the country, I think we need to wait for a reliable secondary source, like the UN or a major news publisher to say something definitive before making any change to the status quo. I've reverted the edit in the Somalia article on that basis. I'd recommend the same for the other related articles. —[AlanM1(talk)]— 11:11, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Though its design leaves a little to be desired, somaligov.net is indeed the official Somali government website (please see the official list of government contacts here), and the new interim President and Speaker Muse Hassan is featured on its front page. The gentleman who registered the website is a spokesman for the government; the similar somaligov.so website is likewise government-owned. This can in turn all be confirmed here. Allvoices is not a reliable source; it's like Wikipedia in that it relies on user-submitted content. This official press release from the Puntland government describes Sharif Ahmed as the "former TFG President" since the TFG's mandate already expired. There are non-government articles that do as well or otherwise imply that (e.g. "An interim speaker, Musa Hassan Abdalla, was sworn in as temporary parliament head as well as overall Somali leader" [3]). So that's both official government sources and non-governmental media outlets that indicate that Hassan is serving as the interim president. Even if it were just government sources indicating this, that would be enough because it would be coming straight from the horse's mouth, as it were. Middayexpress (talk) 13:54, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I've re-adjusted the page per the above and this earlier discussion on the presidency in the period between 1991 and 2000. Middayexpress (talk) 06:11, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not convinced. Why is it that there is no official press release covering the supposed fact that he has become, specifically, "interim president"? Why has no major news reporter (e.g. Reuters, * Times, CNN, etc.) said so? What about the governing documents (i.e. by what law or constitutional provision is the interim speaker made "interim President")? If it isn't constitutional, by whose authority is he named "interim President" and when? —[AlanM1(talk)]— 19:00, 31 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Per the Somali government itself, which is the authority on this issue, Hassan, who is the most senior MP, is serving as interim President in the period between the end of the TFG's mandate (August 20th) and the rescheduled election of a new President ("Muse Hassan Sheikh Sayid Abdulle is the new Interim Speaker of Parliament and the President of the Republic of Somalia until Somalia elects a new Speaker and a President" [4]). This was announced on the its official website, too. Middayexpress (talk) 22:19, 31 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I contend that this site is not official in the sense that it does not speak for the Somali government officially, which body is really now just Parliament, if, as you say, the TFG's mandate has expired. The site is apparently registered, and contributed to in a very unprofessional manner, by one person who claims to be a representative of the Somali government. The registered address (a run-down neighborhood in Minnesota) is not someplace that I would expect any official representative of any government to be. It's hosted at an Ohio rackfarm. There is an official Somali mission to the UN, as well as to the US, in Washington, DC. It would make more sense if the website were registered to them or their address, or they had any connection at all with it.
Further, there is another site with similar, but not identical, content, hosted in Texas, and it's unclear who is the registrant, since there is currently no recognized top-level authority for the .so domain.
The statement that Abdulle is interim President appears as a caption to a picture, and no place else. No other source, including the UN Political Office for Somalia, has acknowledged Abdulle as interim President.
I contend that any one of the following are needed to corroborate the only specific source you have cited (the picture caption):
  • A statement from the Somali Parliament, specifically naming someone as "interim [or acting] President," preferably with a statement of authority by which they are doing so (i.e. what gives them the power).
  • A statement by a respected international NGO, like the UN or AU, specifically recognizing Abdulle as interim President.
  • A statement from the state department (aka Foreign Office) of any stable country, specifically recognizing Abdulle as interim President.
  • An article from a respected world news publication, like the Financial Times, the New York Times, CNN, etc., specifically stating that Abdulle is interim President (presumably with their source for the information). If any of their editors believes your cited source, I'd have to go along with it.
  • Can anyone else think of another source of reliable, corroborating information?
—[AlanM1(talk)]— 23:08, 31 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
As already explained, somaligov.net is the official Somali government website. Here are the government's various contact addresses, including that alternate somaligov.so web address and its Mogadishu street address. There's only one source that's really needed and which supercedes all others in this matter, and that is the Somali government itself. Two such official government sources have already been supplied above: a) the announcement quoted above by the Somali government on its own official website and dedicated President webpage to the effect that "Muse Hassan Sheikh Sayid Abdulle is the new Interim Speaker of Parliament and the President of the Republic of Somalia until Somalia elects a new Speaker and a President", and b) that official press release from the autonomous Puntland government describing Sharif Ahmed as the "former TFG President" since the TFG's mandate already expired. Middayexpress (talk) 23:23, 31 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The link you gave is to the site in question. You can't use their own site to justify their legitimacy. The "official statement" you give as a) is really nothing more than a one-line caption for a picture, on the same website. It is not attributed to anyone in particular, nor does it state by whose or what authority he is named interim President.
Statement b) says nothing about Abdulle at all.
—[AlanM1(talk)]— 23:48, 31 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The press release from the Puntland government clearly describes the former TFG president Sharif Ahmed as just that: the "former TFG President". That is very relevant. At any rate, if the US or Japanese or Mexican or Egyptian government states on its own official website that so and so is the head of this or that office, would anyone doubt it? No, because it's coming from the authority on this matter. The Somali government is no different. A president was supposed to have been elected on August 20th, the same day that the TFG's mandate ended. But that deadline was missed and the election was postponed for a later period, two weeks on. In the interim, Muse Hassan Sheikh Sayid Abdulle was appointed acting Speaker and acting President at a ceremony in Mogadishu. This was announced on the Somali government's official somaligov.net website, on its dedicated President webpage [5]. Although its design could use a touch up, somaligov.net is indeed the official website of the Somali federal government. Hence, why the Africa Mining Projects (Afrimine) links to the website in its list of contacts. Middayexpress (talk) 00:07, 1 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(outdent for readability – replying to Middayexpress, who I've quoted in green)

The press release from the Puntland government clearly describes the former TFG president Sharif Ahmed as just that: the "former TFG President"

...and makes no mention of Abdulle (or anyone else) taking his place. That is exactly my point. (In fact, the press release condemns the supposedly-former president (who is un-named) for issuing orders to the Supreme Court, who apparently followed them)

US or Japanese or Mexican or Egyptian government states on its own official website that so and so is the head of this or that office, would anyone doubt it

Those websites are clearly registered to, and speak for, their governments, are organized in a professional manner, and contain language appropriate for an official website. In contrast, the sites you refer to are, well, not any of those things, particularly if you look at some of the other content. Incidentally, before we go down the road towards accusing me of being biased against, or unknowledgeable about, lesser-developed countries, I have a long professional history of work in Africa.

In the interim, Muse Hassan Sheikh Sayid Abdulle was appointed acting Speaker and acting President at a ceremony in Mogadishu.

Where is the video? Where are reports from any news source or NGO that was there to witness it? Where is an official statement by Parliament (apparently the only part of the government that exists post-mandate-expiration), specifically stating that Abdulle is interim President? You only refer back to the one place, a caption on a picture on a website that I contend is not official. Why would there be no other coverage of such an important event, telling the world who a country's President is?

Hence, why the Africa Mining Projects (Afrimine) links to the website in its list of contacts.

Well, it tries to, anyway. The link has an extra ": " in front, breaking it. When one goes to that site of the supposed Ministry of Finance, what appears in the middle of the page is:
Meet Somalia's next most educated President Dr. Badal W. Kariye who is the renowned author of several novels and academic books & Associate Professor of Political Sociology
This is the same guy to whom your "official" websites are registered, and, I contend, wholly the product of. It turns out he is also, not surprisingly, a candidate for president. Why would he be able to put a link on the Ministry of Finance's official website home page? Why would any candidate's link belong there?
None of this stuff is reliable. I've stated above what I would consider to be reliable. I invite others to do so as well, since we clearly cannot agree on this. —[AlanM1(talk)]— 01:12, 1 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

...and makes no mention of Abdulle (or anyone else) taking his place. That is exactly my point. (In fact, the press release condemns the supposedly-former president (who is un-named) for issuing orders to the Supreme Court, who apparently followed them)

The press release from the Puntland government actually complains about the "former Transitional Federal Government president" Sharif Ahmed acting beyond his present capacity i.e. as though he were still president, when in fact he isn't [6]. The mandate of the TFG, which he led, ended on August 20th. That is the point and why the press release was issued.

Those websites are clearly registered to, and speak for, their governments, are organized in a professional manner, and contain language appropriate for an official website. In contrast, the sites you refer to are, well, not any of those things, particularly if you look at some of the other content. Incidentally, before we go down the road towards accusing me of being biased against, or unknowledgeable about, lesser-developed countries, I have a long professional history of work in Africa.

I didn't accuse you personally of anything or indeed even mention you or your personal background, whatever that may be. I drew an analogy between the official Somali government website and those of other countries to highlight the fact that it too is authoritative vis-a-vis its own internal matters, just like the other governments' sites are. This remains true irrespective of the design/layout or English language prose style on somaligov.net or its somaligov.so sister site (both of which are owned by the Somali government). Please also see WP:RS; there's no design clause.

Where is the video? Where are reports from any news source or NGO that was there to witness it? Where is an official statement by Parliament (apparently the only part of the government that exists post-mandate-expiration), specifically stating that Abdulle is interim President? You only refer back to the one place, a caption on a picture on a website that I contend is not official. Why would there be no other coverage of such an important event, telling the world who a country's President is?

The fact that Muse Hassan Sheikh Sayid Abdulle is serving as the acting president/overall Somali leader in the interim period between the end of the TFG's mandate on August 20th and the upcoming presidential elections was indeed already mentioned by the Somali parliament and on its official website no less ("His Excellency Muse Hassan Sheikh Sayid Abdulle is the new Interim Speaker of Parliament and the President of the Republic of Somalia until Somalia elects a new Speaker and a President" [7]). This fact was likewise mentioned by some non-government sources (e.g. "An interim speaker, Musa Hassan Abdalla, was sworn in as temporary parliament head as well as overall Somali leader" [8]). As the official government sources indicate, Sharif Ahmed is the former president. There are non-government sources that assert this too (e.g. "former President Sharif’s tenure" [9]). So that's both official Somali government sources and non-government sources indicating at least a temporary change in leadership in the brief period leading up to the elections, as opposed to just a few unofficial non-government sources suggesting something different. Middayexpress (talk) 09:07, 1 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well, it tries to, anyway. The link has an extra ": " in front, breaking it.

The fact remains that Africa Mining Projects (Afrimine) links to somaligov.net as the official Somali government contact. So do other bodies, such as the defence and security specialist IHS Jane's in its Jane's International Defence Directory. Middayexpress (talk) 09:07, 1 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

And here is a picture of the official ceremony inaugurating Muse Hassan Sheikh Sayid Abdulle as interim President and Speaker, taken from the Somali government website's coverage of the event [10]. Middayexpress (talk) 09:28, 1 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
How do you get "interim President" from the picture? Most of this is just a repeat of what you said earlier, with re-cites of the same single source, with the exception of the DissidentNation link, which claims he is the "overall Somali leader" not interim President. I won't even dispute that the interim speaker of Parliament might be the highest-ranking person in government, since I don't know what the terms of the accord and supposedly-expired TFG mandate were. My point about the MOF site is that Kariye can apparently put whatever he wants on these sites, like his own campaign slogans and links. That, in itself, makes them unreliable. Imagine if you saw a supposedly official US website with a "re-elect President Obama" or "Donald Trump for President" ad on it. Worse, if much of the site were either written by a single site admin, or contained supposed claims of that site admin's virtues by officials, there would be no question as to its illegitimacy.
This gigantic page, for example, supposedly news of the government, starts out with the same common distorted proportion pic of our friend Kariye. Skip one post and we have a PR from the US Embassy in Somalia, mentioning "...interim Speaker Mussa Hassan Abdulle" and "...organize elections for the next president without delay..." (no mention of a current president, interim or otherwise. Skip the next blurb and we have this, which I just have to quote here:
Breaking News: Mogadishu August 28, 2012 (Somaligov News): On behalf of the Somali People and the newly Elected Members of the Somali National Parliament of the Government of the Democratic Republic of Somalia, I, Prof. Mohamed Sheikh Osman "Jawari" hereby officially congratulate to the Spokesperson and the Director of the Office of Somali Governmental Information Technology in Multilingual E-Governance. Ambassador Honorable Dr. Badal W. Kariye who made it possible to engineer, update and providing accurate parliamentary election news and governmental information as it occurs since September 15, 2000 until on August 23, 2012 28, 2012 16:31 PM.
Ambassador Honorable Dr. Badal W. Kariye is a New Member of the Somali National Parliament, the Spokesperson of the Democratic Republic of Somalia & he has been the Director of the Office of Somali Governmental Information Technology in Multilingual E-Governance & the Chief of the Somali Diplomatic Police.
Ambassador Honorable Dr. Badal W. Kariye "Dr. HunbuL" is the renowned author of 6 novels and two academic books available in any worldwide bookstores and he is well-known career diplomat who worked as the Somali Ambassador to the Great Lakes Region during 2000 to 2002 while he was also serving as the Director of the Office of Somali Governmental Information Technology in Multilingual E-Governance.
Ambassador Honorable Dr. Badal W. Kariye has also worked with the IGAD Front-Line States at Eldoret Sirikuwa Hotel, at Empagathi Nairobi and he has worked with the United Nations Political Office His Excellency Ambassador Winston A. Tubman as a Code Name "Abdikadir".
Ambassador Honorable Dr. Badal W. Kariye "Dr. HunbuL" is politically democratic mediator, negotiator and fiscally outspoken public diplomat. He has all the governmental records and information since 1980s until now in digital formats which the Republic of Somalia must and will have to refund him in the near future.
Congratulations to Ambassador Honorable Dr. Badal W. Kariye "Dr. HunbuL" and his wonderful team who made possible for us to be here and win the elections democratically while they have been updating information online and live at Somali Police Academy "Iskuul Boolisya" in Mogadishu, Kenya, Ethiopia, Djibouti, Sudan, Yemen, UK, Holland, Sweden, Norway, Brazil, South Africa & the Minneapolis, Minnesota USA.
Faithfully yours,
Honorable Prof. Mohamed Sheikh Osman "Jawari"
The Speaker of the Somali National Parliament of the Government of the Republic of Somalia
Honorable Osman Libah Ibrahim MP.
The Spokesperson of the Somali National Parliament
prof.mohamedjawaari@parliament.somaligov.so
prof.mohamedjawaari@parliament.somaligov.net
osmanlibah@parliament.somaligov.so
osmanlibah@parliament.somaligov
media@parliament.somaligov.so
http://www.somaligov.so/
Pretty nice of the new speaker to take time out from, you know, unimportant matters like running a fledgling democracy, to so graciously and vociferously extoll the virtues of this seemingly amazing man. I will not insult the Somali people by believing this is the official site of their government.
All of that aside, we still only have the one caption on a photo on the one site (well, and the others that are created by the same person) calling Abdulle "interim President," one blog post calling him "overall Somali leader" (while he was still interim speaker of Parliament), and a whole bunch of nothing from the rest of the world on this subject.
PLEASE, someone else say something. It's clear I need a time out :( —[AlanM1(talk)]— 10:56, 1 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That italicized passage above has nothing to do with the current discussion and doesn't even mention any of the two principals, Sharif Ahmed and Muse Hassan Sheikh Sayid Abdulle. As already pointed out, Muse Hassan Sheikh Sayid Abdulle was appointed as both interim Speaker of Parliament and interim President on August 20th because that's when the mandate of the previous Transitional Federal Government ended. Elections for a new speaker and president were therefore rescheduled for a later time, two weeks on. Muse Hassan is the overall leader/President in the intervening period. At any rate, there's nothing really to argue here. A picture of Hassan's inauguration ceremony as interim President and interim Speaker was just posted, along with a link to the official announcement of that event to boot [11] ("His Excellency Muse Hassan Sheikh Sayid Abdulle is the new Interim Speaker of Parliament and the President of the Republic of Somalia until Somalia elects a new Speaker and a President"). You asked for evidence of the ceremony and it was provided. You also asked for third party proof that somaligov.net is indeed the official website of the Somali government, and that as well was supplied several times over. That's pretty much it. Middayexpress (talk) 14:05, 1 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Here's another even more explicit confirmation that somaligov.net is the official website of the Somali government, this time from Robert Young Pelton's Somalia Report: "The TFG site is officially here." Middayexpress (talk) 14:47, 1 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sure I could find websites that cite http://www.somaligovernment.org/ as the official site, too – it even looks more official on the face of it – that doesn't make it so. You haven't provided anything else new – just restating the same thing (your opinion of the meaning of a captionless picture) and the same old ref to a site that appears to be the work of one man. Still not a single second source that says he is "interim President" – no internationally respected NGO or news source.
Even if he were "overall Somali leader" as interim Speaker, now that there's a new, elected Speaker, where would that leave him? Why is there no mention of that? Has he done anything official as interim President that's been documented anywhere (other than sites under Kariye's control)?
I honestly don't think there's much point to continuing this argument. In a couple weeks, they will (hopefully) elect the actual President and it won't matter. Hopefully, by then, someone in Parliament will notice the state of their supposedly "official" websites, deny their legitimacy, and make them into something the Somali people and its new government can be proud to show the world. —[AlanM1(talk)]— 20:50, 1 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, the picture of Muse Hassan Sheikh Sayid Abdulle's inauguration ceremony on August 20th as interim President and interim Speaker and the official announcement of that event (where the image was taken from) are not my opinion or doing. They are from the Somali government itself. Muse Hassan is indeed no longer serving as interim Speaker since the election of Mohamed Osman Jawari to the post. He is, however, still serving as interim President because the elections for that position haven't taken place yet.

That Somalia Report link that was just produced discusses the various bogus websites that have gone up during the civil war. Among those is the somaligovernment.org website that you linked to. In the discussion, the Report clarifies what is, by contrast, the official website of the Somali federal government and links readers to that website too. That link points to the same somaligov.net website that you have insisted is not the legitimate Somali government website (complaints which, incidentally, have been entirely based on the website's unappealing design and its overeager administrator, not on any secondary or tertiary sources questioning the validity of the website): "In the ongoing confusion, even the "Official Somalia Government" website is not the official mouthpiece. The TFG site is officially here." Middayexpress (talk) 13:59, 2 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have queried on rs/n if the Somali federal government is a reliable source on who is serving as the interim president of Somalia, and if that somaligov.net website is the Somali federal government's official website. Middayexpress (talk) 14:00, 2 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

{{3O}}

I've requested a third opinion, since we've both stated our positions and rebuttals and requests for input at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Africa and Talk:Somalia haven't brought us anyone. —[AlanM1(talk)]— 01:26, 1 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

One Third Opinion I'm new to formal editing & expertise is in West Africa, so this is just my input having read everything and looked into it myself. Treat as my 2 cents. I think that currently there is no President of Somalia. I am not yet convinced with the evidence that Muse Hassan Sheikh Sayid Abdulle is the President, and I find some sources pointing that either Sheikh Sharif Sheikh Ahmed is still the President or that there is no President. I can easily be convinced by this, but right now am credulous. How I got there: I wanted good, updated source for this question, but found none. CIA World Factbook does not appear to update when it is between governments (Mark Rutte is still listed as the Netherlands PM)...so no help. The Somali permanent mission page at the UN hasn't been updated since 2005 it appears...so no help. State Dept. last updated in April...so no help. UNPolitical Office for Somalia (which would have to have this, right?), doesn't...So none of these help, I go to news sources, and here's what I got: 1. BBC report translated of Radio Gaalkayco "President Shaykh Sharif is said to have congratulated the new Speaker and his deputies, the electoral commission and the former acting Speaker, Gen Muse Hasan Abdulle for presiding over a pioneer free and fair parliamentary election process in the country" (Aug. 29, 2012); 2. IHT Report: "The president of the transitional government, Sheik Sharif Sheik Ahmed, said in his closing remarks that the transition [of electing new MPs] had ended successfully" (Aug. 22, 2012); 3. Africa News "Outgoing Somali government officials including President Sheikh Sharif Sheikh Ahmed, Prime Minister Abdiweli Mohamed Ali and former speaker Sharif Hassan Sheikh Ahmed were present at the inaugural session of the new legislature" (Aug. 21, 2012); 4. Washington Post "Monday - the last day of eight years of Somalia's U.N.-backed Transitional Federal Government - was the day by which the United Nations repeatedly said a new president would be in place. But political bickering, violent threats and seat-buying schemes delayed progress, guaranteeing that the day would come and go with no new leader in place" (Aug. 21, 2012). My issue with the website is that it doesn't seem to get things right. We know that the issue arose on Aug. 20, but there is this statement on Somaligov.net: "No President in the Office of the President as of August 5, 2012 because the President is interim until he is re-elected or replaced by a new President" A sentence which doesn't make much sense, but seems to be indicating the incorrect date of Presidential puzzlement (please correct if I am off). As noted, this will hopefully be clear on September 10th, but right now I think I'm going with Washington Post and saying they don't have a President. I think the best course of action is to treat Ahmed as the last in the List of Somali Presidents until such time as it is made a little more clear that there is even an interim President. Hope this helps. AbstractIllusions (talk) 21:46, 2 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Sheikh Sharif Ahmed, Abdiweli Mohamed Ali and Sharif Sheikh Hassan, the President, Prime Minister and Parliamentary Speaker, respectively, in the former Transitional Federal Government (TFG) of Somalia, have often been referred to as "outgoing" over the past few days since the TFG's mandate officially ended on August 20th. Similarly, in this Garowe Online article dated September 1st, Sharif Ahmed is called the "former President". At any rate, that Washington Post article does not indicate that there is currently no president. It says that "no new leader" was elected on August 20th. This is something which we already know because the official presidential elections were postponed for a later period. There are no reliable source that indicate that Somalia currently has no president. Middayexpress (talk) 14:23, 3 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I generally think you are probably right. But the evidence is not yet convincing. I need something, anything else that tells me there is an interim president (I'm not sure there needs to be one) and some telling me who that interim president is. I still think caution is the best approach until it is clear that from August 20, 2012 until September 10th, 2012 there is a President and who that is. The evidence just isn't clear enough to convince me at this point. I got the appropriate alerts up though, so if this changes in the next few days, I'll make sure to comment. AbstractIllusions (talk) 15:34, 3 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Mohamed Osman Jawari is now apparently serving as interim president since his election as Parliamentary Speaker on August 28: "[August 20] Muse Hassan Abdulle, the eldest legislator, becomes interim speaker of the new parliament and as such acting president. On August 28 Mohamed Osman Jawari is elected speaker." [12] Middayexpress (talk) 16:40, 3 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed your link above, hope you don't mind. Wouldn't this make Jawari President now? If Abdulle became acting President, wouldn't the same mechanism make Jawari President when he was elected? And if not, maybe the mechanism doesn't actually exist. Aside from that, it still isn't cutting it for me. UNPOS has written a dozen articles in the past 10 days about these issues, they haven't identified an interim President once, that makes me really hesitant to say that there is one. If I can't verify a website's claims by following their sourcing (because they don't provide it), that makes me really suspicious. Once again, this is not a pressing issue that should necessitate us trusting some websites without clear sourcing. We should wait to avoid confusing a confusing situation. Wikipedia saying someone is the President without a clear declaration or source is not a good precedent. AbstractIllusions (talk) 18:42, 3 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Rulers.org indicates that Jawari took over from Muse Hassan as interim Speaker, and as such, as acting President as well (see above). Middayexpress (talk) 18:56, 3 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Not to get distracted on a side point, but that isn't what Rulers.org says, you are assuming it. It says that Muse Hassan was Speaker and President, and then Jawari was elected Speaker, but it mentions nothing about Jawari being the President. And that's my point, why doesn't it say that? Because it doesn't know. And that is problematic. Rather than making wikipedia say something that is unclear right now, we should opt for caution and wait for the report to be clear. AbstractIllusions (talk) 19:29, 3 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Let me add, that the page does specify: " It only includes people who were internationally recognized as such." There is no clear evidence that either Muse Hassan or Jawari are internationally recognized as the President of Somalia. I really want to encourage you to remove them from the list until it is clear that they were the Presidents of Somalia and that they were internationally recognized as such. That doesn't mean you are wrong, just that it isn't clear at this moment in time. AbstractIllusions (talk) 19:35, 3 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Muse Hassan is listed as acting President on Rulers.org because that is what he was and internationally recognized as such (see below). Middayexpress (talk) 13:06, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"becomes interim speaker of the new parliament and as such acting president" (emphasis mine). Now we're getting somewhere. To me, the writer of this wants us to infer that Abdulle became acting president because he became interim speaker, like they are coupled by some provision of law (perhaps when the presidency is vacant). There is no source cited and no explicit declaration of that, however, and no explanation about what happens now that a permanent speaker was elected (any rational law would make that person the new acting president, I would think). I've asked the editor of the site for his input. Note that the site appears to be the work of one person, and it doesn't cite any sources (as far as I can see), but at least it may lead us to some "meat". —[AlanM1(talk)]— 21:37, 3 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, Rulers.org indicates that Muse Hassan was acting President because he was the Speaker for a while. The implication here is that this designation now applies to Jawari since he is the current Speaker. Here, the European Commission's website likewise identifies Muse Hassan as the acting President and Sharif Ahmed as the former President. It's dated to August 27th, a day before Jawari was elected the new Speaker: "Catherine Ashton, High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy and Vice-President of the EC, went to Somalia where she notably met with Muse Hassan Sheikh Sayid Abdulle, acting President of Somalia and acting Speaker of the Parliament." Middayexpress (talk) 13:06, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • That's good enough for me. Can I propose that Middayexpress add a note (like others in the table) that explains what the situation was with these interim Presidents. I think it would be greatly helpful for the table. Peace. AbstractIllusions (talk) 13:46, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Middayexpress (talk) 14:45, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Excellent. Good enough for the EC, good enough for me (and should be good enough for WP) :)
Further, I heard back from the rulers.org editor (B. Schemmel), who said "It's in the constitution (Art. 95)". There are a couple of issues with that, though I am generally convinced:

  1. This is a "draft constitution" at the UNPOS site, dated 12th June 2012, while this is supposedly the "Provisional Constitution, Adopted August 1, 2012", thought it's at a commercial site. Searching for "somalia" "provisional constitution" "Adopted August 1, 2012" results in only that one hit. I'll also note that it is odd that the date format is MDY instead of DMY, which is inconsistent with other docs and common style in Somalia, AFAIK. I'll also note that the constitution page on Kariye's supposedly official government sites points to a page with the 1960 constitution, not either of the drafts mentioned here.
  2. Both the June and August docs state (in Article 95):
If the Office of the President of the Federal Republic of Somalia falls vacant, the Speaker of the House of the People of the Federal Parliament shall act as President of the Federal Republic until such time as a new President of the Federal Republic is elected, within a maximum of thirty (30) days. (bold emphasis mine)
My concern is the bolded title. The document describes a bi-cameral parliament, with a "House of the People" and an "Upper House", and a separate Speaker for each. Why was Abdulle, and following him, Jawari, referred to as "Speaker of Parliament" (including Kariye's supposedly official sites)? Did they somehow decide not to implement both houses? Does Jawari hold both offices?
I haven't had time to research fully (nor will I likely), and, like I said, I'm convinced by the EC's recognition and the apparent provision in law (that nobody aside from Schemmel seems to know about or care to mention, including Kariye). By way of documentation for further research, here are some articles that may more fully explain what constitution is in place and when it was ratified, or at least how it appears:
—[AlanM1(talk)]— 14:28, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Article 95 of the constitution seems to sum it up. Middayexpress (talk) 14:45, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
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