Talk:Knights Templar/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions about Knights Templar. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

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Archive 5

Link to analingus

Why is this here? I've never heard it suggested specifically that this was the meaning of the kiss on the base of the spine. Certainly everyone from Philip the Fair on claimed it was evidence of homosexuality, but not that it was specifically a sexual rather than symbolic practice. I'm removing the link, as I think it's misleading, but if anyone has anything to say about the link, I'd be grateful for the explanation. Zabieru 03:44, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

Out of place

"Christ Gilbot was born in 1876 and learnt the art of carpentry from a young age."

This seems really out of place where it is, almost like there was more information that was cut out and this was accidentally left in. Is it supposed to be there?

Homosexual activities

I'd really like to see some information about the alleged homosexual activities of the Knights Templar. From what I've read, they were probably just allegations made to discredit the order and not true, but it's still a fascinating story. I'd like to see the evidence. --Dmerrill

yep, it was basically a slander, and no, there's not much 'evidence' to show other than the testimony under torture about kissing the nether regions (which new agers like to think of as 'awakening the Kundalini serpent', which seems a little much for Palestine in the 14th century - they tend to blame it all on 'contact' with Muslim mystical movements). It's worth sending you to look at their seal, which is often strangely interpreted (I don't think I recommend the Jungian interpretation of the url I'm sending you to, but it has a picture of the seal and a fairly sound de-mystification of the homosexuality): http://www.templarhistory.com/seal.html Enjoy. --MichaelTinkler

Just to dog you on every /talk article on the Encyclopedia, Dr. (?) Tinkler, don't you mean the Freudian interpretation? --Alex Kennedy

Considering that Carl Jung is actually mentioned on the page in question, I'd say he meant Jung --Anders Törlind

Robinson and Baigent

I removed the references to Robinson and Baigent. They are not serious amateur historians, but conspiracy theorists. If you must work on this area, start with some serious bibliography. By the way - I love the mention of the Medieval Academy on Robinson's flap (on Amazon) - since he's elderly and non-professional he probably gets HIS membership for $10 less than I have to pay for it! MichaelTinkler

Rule of the Templars : The French Text of the Rule of the Order of Knights Templar (Studies in the History of Medieval Religion), J. M. Upton-Ward -- this is what they said they were doing. You don't have to believe them -- but to believe Michael Baigent instead is not intellectually charitable.

The New Knighthood : A History of the Order of the Temple, Malcolm Barber; sound, scholarly, and dull - no ark of the covenant or secret bloodlines of Jesus. Maybe that's why the hegemonic university-system published it (Cambridge Univ Press)

Crusaders and Heretics, 12Th-14th Centuries, Malcolm Barber, and then THIS will give you the standard hegemonic scholarly line on what Philip was REALLY up to. Dull. Sorry.

Odd paragraph

Removed really odd paragraph with inaccurate references to feudal society and to an anachronistic "separation of church and state" under Pope Gregory VII (preseumably we're talking about the Concordat of Worms?) that has nothing to do with banking.

separate of church and state has plenty to do with banking. Many feudal lords grumbled in the 13th century that by sanctioning the Templars the Church was horning in on their traditional control of currency and credit. Certainly each of them saw himself as the next Caesar, minting his own money with his own face on it, and the Templars stood flatly in the way of that. It was one of many resentments agaisnt the Templars that made it possible for "Phillip the Fair" to do what he did.

I would certainly like to see more sources for this interpretation before all the banking stuff is kept in the article JHK

There are several books on this, but here's a quick link templarhistory "the knights returned to their Chapters throughout Europe and became known as moneylenders to the monarchs. In the process many historians believe they invented the Banking System. The Templars fought along side King Richard I (Richard The Lion Hearted) and other Crusaders in the battles for the Holy Lands.

The secret meetings and rituals of the knights would eventually cause their downfall. The King of France, Philip the Fair used these rituals and meetings to his advantage to destroy the knights. The real reason for his crushing the Templars was that he felt threatened by their power and immunity. In 1307, Philip, who desperately needed funds, to support his war against England's Edward I made his move against the Knights Templar.

On October 13th, 1307, King Philip had all the Templars arrested on the grounds of heresy, since this was the only charge that would allow the seizing of their money and assets. The Templars were tortured and as a result, ridiculous confessions were given. These confessions included"

the history of inquisitions and such is so loaded with property motives for accusations that this must be taken to be the default explanation, and such nonsense as "worshipping a bearded head" or "persecution of homosexuals", if mentioned at all, must be given extremely short shrift. It's just nonsense. The historical consensus is that Philip feared the Knights immunity and their enroaching on his privelege as a head of state, he found his excuse, took the money, and that's that. Any other explanation fails all test of credibility, and should only be incidentally mentioned here.

Much of what you say is not untrue -- but it's also not exactly correct, IIRC. Yes, it is generally accepted among medieval historians that Philip the Fair's persecution of the Templars was a strike against a powerful order, coupled with a chance to get rich. But some of the other assertions don't really do justice to the entire picture, instead oversimplifying the events and the time to fit an agenda that seems to pop up regularly on the templars-masons-kabbala conspiracy web.

For example, banking was carried out by Jews -- the resentment of the ability of Jews to profit from their moneylending activities was one of the reasons for anti-Jewish sentiment in the Middle ages, and expelling Jews from the land was an easy way to cancel the debts of Christians. I would like to know which "many historians" credit the Templars with the invention of Banking as we know it -- not just information from a templar-oriented website.

Secondly, although there were often property motives involved in many Inquisitions (although far fewer than in witch trials -- something very different and not necessarily related to Inquisitions), it is unrealistic to discount religious motivation. Religion (both belief and practice) was generally the primary force behind many investigations into possible heresy. unfortunately, that does not mean that secondary factors like profit did not play a large part.

Finally, what "feudal lords" (a term that is absolutely meaningless in the context used) grumbled? Give examples. Which traditional control? -- it depends on which lords you're talking about. And separation of Church and State didn't exist in the way you seem to think it did -- any separation was to the advantage of the Church -- the norm prescribed by most popes from Gelasius on was that the spiritual sword took precedence over the secular. It's bollocks to say that each lord (again, not specific) thought of himself as the next Caesar -- some kings, perhaps, some emperors, probably (although few). The article now contains too much inattributed information that really owes little to good historical method -- that method demands that history be studied with respect for the beliefs and motivations of the subjects, and NOT by looking at a set of historical circumstances through modern eyes with modern views.JHK

Al Aqsa

Is Al Aqsa octagonal, as the first or second paragraph suggests in reference to the inspiration for Templar churches and the figure on the flag? Not externally, according to my memory or in the photos I see on the Web. If octagonality is the inspiration, the referenced structure must be the Dome of the Rock, next door to Al Aqsa on the temple mount. I'll change the article to reflect this more sensible seeming theory.168... 06:49 25 Jun 2003 (UTC)

The Dome of the Rock is octagonal not Alaqsa.Harry Potter 00:27 26 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Templar theory

Thanks for a super page. I personally believe in "Templar Theory," the idea the Templars are the ancient ancestors of the Freemasons. I can't prove it so I will add nothing to your fine article.

Now, with three tildies … PaulinSaudi

Suggestion

suggestion: put a visible border around the image and caption: (the first time i read the page, thanks to my window size, the text looked like it said "accept tithing in homosexuality")

Moved

I moved this link from the article as it seems unconnected to what the article is about. Angela

Grand Encampment of Knights Templar of the United States of America (the modern Templar organization, which may or may not have a connection with the original order)

I have protected the page, please try to use this talkpage to sort things out. A revert war helps no-one. -- Cimon Avaro on a pogostick 02:21, Nov 16, 2003 (UTC)

The Grand Encampment is somewhat of a sticky subject; not only are they named for the early Knights Templar organization, but I believe it has been posited that they actually descend from that organization. Nevertheless, I think the modern organization is notable enough that it rates its own article on the 'pedia separate from this one. Even if this is decided against, and the modern organization's information is incorporated into this article, I think we should wait with this link until that happens, because as of yet the link would be the only mention of the modern organization in the whole article, adding confusion. - Hephaestos 02:52, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I like Cyan's idea of me just writing a new article on the modern organization, with a link to THAT article on the old article. What do u think of that? Justin L. Smith 02:55, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I think that would be the way to go, yes. - Hephaestos 02:57, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Agreed. That would be great Justin. Would it make sense to unprotect these pages now things have calmed down? Angela 03:00, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I dont see a need to protect them now if you dont. I consider the matter solved. Justin L. Smith 03:01, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Hey. The linked article discussing the relation between the Templars and modern Freemasons is, to be blunt, crackpottery: it even cites Foucault's Pendulum as a factual source. If one continues reading, it turns into paranoid conspiratorial raving about the Masonic plan for global dominance and the eradication of religion: evolution, astronomy, and physics (modern science in general, really) are all named as parts of this far-reaching Masonic/Kabbalistic/Ancient Egyptian plot. I really think this link should be removed, and perhaps replaced with a link to the article on the History of Freemasonry. --Mirv 20:18, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Speculation of Knights Templar in America

The claim of Templer in America (misspelled) makes me doubt this entire added text is true and not modern fiction. Can anyone verify this? - Tεx τ urε 22:22, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)

For the real underlying reason however, we probably need look no further than simple greed. Philip was nearly broke. He had inherited huge debts from his father and from wars against England and Flandres. One of the king’s closest advisers, William de Nogaret, suggested the easiest solution to Philip’s cash crisis was to confiscate as much of the Templar wealth as he could lay his hands on. The scheming William had already been excommunicated in 1304 for his part in trying to kidnap Pope Boniface VIII. At the time he had merely been carrying out Philip’s orders. King Philip had also come to regard himself as a scourge of heresy and a purifier of the kingdom. In 1306, he had expelled the Jews from France, bringing against them vague accusations of sacrilege and sorcery. If William could supply proof that the Templars were also sorcerous heretics — that their Christian wealth was in danger of pollution — then he could legitimately take it over. Weren’t the Templars, after all, notoriously secretive? There was much talk of their ‘great secret’. What was it? For them to have amassed so much wealth over two centuries, it must be something powerful — perhaps even occult.

William befriended an embittered renegade Templar named Esquin de Florian of Béziers, who had been expelled from the Order. Esquin had already approached the thing of Aragon, offering to sell him the Templars’ ‘great secret’. At the same time he had accused them of blasphemy and all kinds of scandalous practices. William lapped all this up. With Esquin’ help, he managed to plant spies in Templar houses. The stages was set for the grand arrests. And, as William hoped, for the improvement of the king’s finances.

On the day of the arrests, the Paris Templars arranged the treasures and ‘great secret’ be loaded on a wagons which headed toward the port city of La Rochelle. From there, it was deposited aboard the 300 Templar ships, setting sail to an unknown destination. The Templars were said to flee with there treasure to Scotland. A small contigent of ships 8 ships did make port in scotland. The fate of the fleet remains a mystery. There is speculation that Templers in North America had a birth at Oak Island previously french acadia. Another templer group specilated migrated and settled in what today is the swiss alps.

An important point to make - the "history" of the ships is pure speculation, as is the idea that some of their treasures were spirited away. Neither are accepted as verifiable by conventional historians. One point to be made - if they knew the arrests were coming, the time it would take to load up wagons of treasure and remove to 300 ships would not be negligible, as well as not go unnoticed by the King's agents.....overall, it seems rather implausableDonaNobisPacem 00:19, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Modern Orders & Claims of Descent Section

I corrected some of the information regarding Masonic ties to the Knights Templar. The section referenced below was totally rewritten to be more expansive:

Some Freemasons believe they were descended from Templars who fled to Scotland and that the group really did have heretical beliefs. There is a Masonic Knights Templar organization which in America and other countries is part of the York Rite. In most jurisdictions it is open only to those who profess a belief in the Christian religion. It is unknown whether or not it has historical connections with the original Knights Templar.

I essentially rewrote the section to put the full influence of the Tempars in Masonry into context and correct some statements that were a bit off (claims of descendency).

I also added a new section regarding DeMolay and the reference to the Templars in the novel, The Da Vinci Code.

Wgfinley 02:02, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC) (Senior DeMolay)

Moved from article

but these accusations were in reality due to a misunderstanding of arcane rituals held behind closed doors which had their origins in the Crusaders’ bitter struggle against the Saracens. These included "denying Christ and spitting on the Cross three times", as well as "kissing other men’s behinds". These acts were intended to simulate the kind of humiliation and torture that a Crusader might be subjected to by the Saracens if captured. They were taught how to commit apostacy "with the mind only and not with the heart." As for the false accusations of head-worship and trying to syncretize Christianity with Mohammedanism, the former referred to rituals involving the alleged relics of Saint Euphemia, one of Saint Ursula's 11 maidens, Hughes de Payens and John the Baptist rather than pagan idols while the latter to the chaplains creating the term "Baphomet" through the Atbash cipher to mystify the term "Sophia" (Greek for "wisdom"), which was equated to the concept of "Logos" (Greek for "Word").

This portion is extremely POV, and strikes me as without factual merit. Please cite the references, and we can see about reintegrating some if it into the text. Sam [Spade] 05:31, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I agree. I will reword this portion before reintegrating it. One reference is a London Times article that is no longer available online. However, here is a partial mirror site for the article in question. Loremaster 15:42, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)

These acts were intended to simulate the kind of humiliation and torture that a Crusader might be subjected to by the Saracens if captured. They were taught how to commit apostacy "with the mind only and not with the heart." As for the false accusations of head-worship and trying to syncretize Christianity with Mohammedanism, some scholars argue that the former referred to rituals involving the alleged relics of Saint Euphemia, one of Saint Ursula's 11 maidens, Hughes de Payens and John the Baptist rather than pagan idols while the latter to the chaplains creating the term "Baphomet" through the Atbash cipher to mystify the term "Sophia" (Greek for "wisdom"), which was equated to the concept of "Logos" (Greek for "Word").

How can we possibly know how these acts were intended, or if they even occured? I find the whole line of reasoning unneccesarilly detrimental to the Knights. Sam [Spade] 20:52, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)

According to some scholars, the recently-recovered testimonies of some Knights Templar. Loremaster 18:05, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Do you have a source for that? Sam [Spade] 19:02, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

FS AncientMysteries News: Vatican File Shows Pope Pardoned Massacred Knights "recently-recovered testimonies of some Knights Templar" might be an overstatement on my part so I have rephrased this line in article to be more accurate. Loremaster 19:53, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

OK, thanx. Sam [Spade] 20:00, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I'd really like to see some information about the alleged homosexual activities of the Knights Templar. From what I've read, they were probably just allegations made to discredit the order and not true, but it's still a fascinating story. I'd like to see the evidence. --Dmerrill

yep, it was basically a slander, and no, there's not much 'evidence' to show other than the testimony under torture about kissing the nether regions (which new agers like to think of as 'awakening the Kundalini serpent', which seems a little much for Palestine in the 14th century - they tend to blame it all on 'contact' with Muslim mystical movements). It's worth sending you to look at their seal, which is often strangely interpreted (I don't think I recommend the Jungian interpretation of the url I'm sending you to, but it has a picture of the seal and a fairly sound de-mystification of the homosexuality): http://www.templarhistory.com/seal.html Enjoy. --MichaelTinkler

Just to dog you on every /talk article on the Encyclopedia, Dr. (?) Tinkler, don't you mean the Freudian interpretation? --Alex Kennedy

Considering that Karl Jung is actually mentioned on the page in question, I'd say he meant Jung --Anders Törlind