Talk:Jan-Fishan Khan

Source: The Golden Book of India

This source material may be of use:

"Ahmed Shah Sayyid (of Sardhana), Naweb

"Born 1st January 1835; succeeded in 1882. The family are Muswi or Mashadi Sayyids, descended from Hayat Ali Musa Raza, and originally residing at Paghman near Kabul. On account of services rendered to Alexander Barnes in his Kabul mission, and subsequently to the English in their retreat from Kabul, they were expelled from Kabul and settled at Sardhana. At the time of the Mutiny, the head of the family, Sayyid Muhammed Jan Fishan Khan Saheb, took the side of the Government at once. When the Mutiny occurred at Meerut, he raised a body of horse, consisting of his followers and dependents, and officered by himself and his relatives; accompanied General Wilson's force to the Hindan; was present in both actions, and thence to Delhi, where he remained with the headquarters camp until the city was taken, when his men were employed to keep order in Delhi. For his eminent services the title of Naweb, with a suitable khilat, was conferred on him. And each of his successors have received the title of Naweb for life on succeeding to the estates."

Roper Lethbridge, The Golden Book of India, p13, Elibron Classics.

See google book search here.

EricT (talk) 07:56, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Ah, this mentions Muswi and Musa, which I guess is related to the eighth twelver Imam Ali_al-Rida, aka Ali ibn Musa ibna Ja'far? EricT (talk) 13:52, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Source: Indian Mutiny (etc)

There's also a brief mention of the help Jan Fishan Khan gave to the British in Indian Mutiny 1857 - 58 -- Vol.1 which shows a letter from Col. R.J.H. Birch, Secretary to the Government of India.

See google book search here.

EricT (talk) 12:04, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Relatives

According to Tahir Shah in Sorcerer's Apprentice, Jan Fishan Khan was the son of Sayed Qutubuddin Khan of Paghman in Afghanistan. EricT (talk) 13:07, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

See the excerpt from Chapter 1 of Tahir Shah's book here:

http://www.arcadepub.com/book/?GCOI=55970100354430&fa=preview

EricT (talk) 13:09, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Sufi sage?

Idries Shah's obituary states that Jan Fishan Khan was a "Sufi sage" whilst James Moore maintains that "Naqshbandi Paghmani" is self-styled. In some of his books on Sufism, Idries Shah attributes several quotations and stories to Jan Fishan Khan. So, can we describe him as a Sufi and categorize him as an Afghan Sufi? EricT (talk) 14:57, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Statements attributed to Nawab Jan Fishan Khan by Idries Shah in his books on Sufism include: "The candle is not there to illuminate itself" and "The visible places of Sufi study are like lamps in the dark. The inner places are like the Sun in the sky. The lamp illuminates an area for a time. The sun abolishes the dark." EricT (talk) 15:26, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I guess it would be nice to have at least one source that does not draw on his descendants say that he was a sufi. Jayen466 16:53, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Meaning of the name

There is a little bit on the meaning of the name from a Victorian source here. Jayen466 16:53, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

That sounds pretty convincing and maybe worth a mention, Jayen? EricT (talk) 17:38, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I've added a bit from Saira Shah's book, which actually covers and explains the ambiguity the above source alludes to (throwing away one's own vs. others' lives) quite nicely. But I'll add a footnote ref for Sale as well. Jayen466 19:26, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Edit conflict

Sorry, Eric, I think I just overwrote a couple of your edits. I'll reinstate your corrections in just a mo. Jayen466 19:20, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Upon checking, I think it's actually all still there, but do look it over. Cheers. Jayen466 19:24, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

No worries, you're doing a sterling job. Thanks. EricT (talk) 19:29, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

One thing I'm not yet up-to-speed on is how to use named references more than once in the same article. EricT (talk) 19:32, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

It is enough to provide the full details once. WP uses the first instance of full details provided, any others are ignored. (The first instance of the named ref in the flow of text does not have to be the one that provides the details.) Any other uses of the same ref in the article can be shortened to <ref name="name" />. No separate closing tag is required when using the shortened name tag. For a full explanation, see WP:REFNAME. Jayen466 19:52, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

We should give full publication details for Lethbridge, incl. tbe year and ISBN for the recent facsimile edition. I believe the book was originally published in 1893. Jayen466 19:53, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Elibron Classics info here. Not sure how to format the ref: will leave to you, please. EricT (talk) 20:03, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Birth and death

Haven't yet been able to find a source for JFK's birth date. His death according to sufisme.dk but unconfirmed is given as 1864. If you need a translation, see this. EricT (talk) 16:43, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Yahoo! search came up with Imperial Gazetteer of India, v. 22, p. 105. also giving death as 1864. EricT (talk) 16:47, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

This last source gives some further yummy bio detail, btw. EricT (talk) 16:57, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Source: Imperial Gazetteer of India

For convenience, this is the text from the gazetteer (it's been OCR'd so the text is not perfect):

"SARDHAA7A TO [47N 105 The total demand for rent and other dues in 1904 was i�3 lakhs, while the Government land revenue and cesses amounted to Rs. 53,000. The head-quarters of the estate are at SARDHANA TowN. It belongs to a family of Muswi Saiyids, who claim descent from Ali Musa' Raza, the eighth Imam. These Saiyids resided at Paghman near Kabul, but were expelled on account of services rendered to Sir Alexander Burnes in his Kabul mission, and subsequently to the British in the retreat from Kabul. A pension of Rs. i,ooo a month was given to the family, which settled at Sardhana. During the Mutiny Saiyid Muhammad Jan Fishan Khan, the head of the family, raised a body of horse and did good service both in Meerut District and before Delhi. As a reward the title of Nawab Bahadur, and confiscated estates assessed at Rs. io,ooo per annum, were conferred on Jan Fishan Khan, with concessions as to the revenue assessed. The, pension was also made permanent. During the lifetime of the first Nawab, and for some time after, the family added largely to the estate, but speculations in indigo and personal extravagance caused losses. 'I'lie estate was taken under the Court of Wards in 1895, and in igoi the debts, amounting to io lakhs, were paid off by a loan from Government. The present Nawab, Saiyid Ahmad Shah, and his two predecessors were sons of Jan Fishan Khan, who died in 1864. Sardhana Town. -Head-quarters of the tahsil of the same name in Meerut District, United Provinces, situated in 29� 9' N. and 7� 38' E., on a metalled road 12 miles north-west of Meerut city and 6 miles from Sardhana station on the North-Western Railway. The population rose from 12,059 in 1891 to 12,467 in igoi. The place is now of small importance, but it was once famous as the residence of the Begarn Sumru. According to tradition, the town was founded by a Raja Sarkat, whose family ruled till their expulsion by the Musalmans. The place became the property of Dhusars and Bishnois, who were driven out by Tagas in the eighth century. Walter Reinhardt, better known by the sobriquet of Sombre or Sumru, was a butcher by profession, and a native of Luxemburg. He came to India as a soldier in the French army, and deserting that service, took employment with the British, where he attained the rank of sergeant. Deserting again, he rejoined the French service at Chander- nagore, and on the surrender of that settlement accompanied M. Law in his wanderings throughout India from 1757 to z76o. In the latter year Law's party joined the army of Shah Alam in Bengal, and remained with the emperor until his final defeat near Gaya by Colonel Carnac. Sumru next entered the service of Mir Kasim, by whom he was employed to murder the English prisoners at Patna (PATNA DISTRICT) in October, 1763. He succeeded in escaping into Oudh, and afterwards served several native chiefs, until in 1777, he ..."

Source: Imperial Gazetteer of India, v. 22, p. 105. EricT (talk) 17:08, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Reference info for the gazetteer can be found here. EricT (talk) 17:10, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Specifically volume XXII title page here. EricT (talk) 17:12, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Good find. Jayen466 18:07, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Sure looks like it, Jayen. As you can see, it's got other detail in it (eg about the founding and population of Sardhana town). Maybe you could rework and sort out the ref (not my strong point). Cheers, EricT (talk) 18:12, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

btw the Latin phrase "in igoi" had me fooled for a while (OCRed 1901!) EricT (talk) 18:17, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

igoi indeed! :-)) Btw, I think we're going beyond the source to assert that Lewin implies that Arif succeeded OAS; we should just say what the source says, and leave the speculation to the reader. Cheers, Jayen466 20:53, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Btw, I noted that the Gazetteer backs Moore up to some extent, re the dissipation of wealth, as discussed elsewhere. While this may only be one aspect of the story, rather than the whole of it, Moore clearly did not make things up out of thin air. Jayen466 20:56, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you about my OR on Lewin, Jayen. Good call.

Also note in JFK that at that time the family claimed descent from the 8th Imam. EricT (talk) 21:19, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

It's the same thing, methinks. See Ali al-Rida. Jayen466 13:39, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Also see The Twelve Imams. (But weren't the more recent Shahs Sunni rather than Shia?) Jayen466 13:41, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I haven't the foggiest, Jayen :) I meant that later Idries Shah is reported as being descended from the senior male line to the Prophet EricT (talk) 13:47, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Okay, doesn't matter: Shi'a-Sunni_relations#Sh.C4.AB.E2.80.98ism_and_Sufism. (Doris Lessing mentions that I. Shah was brought up as a sunni muslim.) The senior male line does go through the 8th Imam. (Fatimah is the only female link in the chain; her brothers died in early childhood.) Jayen466 13:53, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Eric, we need a source for "is said to have succeeded him by fatwa as Sufi guide in his Naqshbandi Tariqah". If we can't source it, it should go. Jayen466 16:31, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I missed this comment, Jayen. Please do. I don't have a source, only an emailed copy of the fatwa which was originally faxed. EricT (talk) 18:10, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Leicester galleries

Probably not a reliable source, but see: http://www.leicestergalleries.com/art-and-antiques/detail/15226 EricT (talk) 22:13, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I remember that page. Actually, I think those sorts of things tend to be quite well researched. Good enough for me; a useful detail is that the Jan Fishan Khan title was bestowed by Shah Shuja, whereas the nawab title was bestowed by the British, as far as I understand. And the page is definitely good enough for an external link. Jayen466 13:31, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Also corroborates Saira Shah's point about JFK's family allegiance to Shah Shuja. Jayen466 13:32, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Great, Jayen. Have added external link. Do you want to tweak my changes to the text/ref? The link came from the man in Morocco, btw. (elsewhere have changed infobox relatives to Shah family cat link) EricT (talk) 13:35, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

I did wonder about the Sufi aspect of the name given by Saira Shah if it came from the British: sounds more likely if a carefully chosen name by Shah Shuja. EricT (talk) 13:40, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Ah, I never saw the previous article that was speedily deleted. But I remember I posted that Leicester Galleries page to CS once. :-) Jayen466 16:32, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Sardhana: early history

From http://www.imninalu.net/famousGypsies.htm

" Walter Balthazzar Reinhardt (Trier/Trèves, 1720 ? - Sardhana, India, 1778)

This adventurer, libelled by western historians (who cannot even assert whether he was born in Germany, France, Luxembourg, Switzerland or Austria) is also known by his nickname "Samru", an Indic adaptation from the French "Sombre", name given to him probably because of his dark skin. After a quarrel with his brother Jakob, he was enrolled in the French East India Company as a sailor and landed in India in 1754. He apparently passed to the British in Bengal and returned back to the French in Chandarnagar (There is another version, that he was first in the British army and then passed to the French). Whichever version is right, it is a fact that he knew very well both the French and the British war schools. Subsequently, he left the European colonizers for the Indian rulers, having his own army composed by Indian warriors and also European soldiers, mainly deserters from the British. Since history has been written by the winners -- that were defeated by him --, he is slandered as the responsible for the slaughter of the British in Patna, an event that took place after he repeatedly called on the British to surrender. On the other side, if he indeed was a bloody warrior, he was not worse than the British and French officers, who certainly were neither missionaries nor Médecins Sans Frontières. His army was the only in India that fought the British with success, and was undefeated during all his career. As a reward for his services, the Indian Emperor gave Samru Reinhardt the principality of Sardhana as his own property and realm; he married an Indian lady, Begum Yohanna Samru, that succeeded him after his death as the leader of his army. " EricT (talk) 21:51, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Subsequent Nawabs (line of succession)

I found a little bit on Jan Fishan Khan's sons: "The present Nawab, Saiyid Ahmad Shah, and his two predecessors were sons of Jan Fishan Khan, who died in 1864." [1], also here: [2] Ahmad Shah succeeded (one of his brothers, evidently) in 1882, according to The Golden Book of India: [3] JN466 15:18, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

 Done Many thanks, J. You're on a roll today :) Esowteric (talk) 15:47, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

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Descendants of Jan Fishan Khan

We’d like to update the various descendants of Jan Fishan Khan to track the lineage. I see various enteries that I had made several years ago have been removed.

e.g Saiyed Salim Shah of Salimabad, near Palia and Lakhimpur kheri. Was one of his descendents but we need to figure the antecendants.

He had several children from his two wives. His second wife bore him several children. Maimoona Shah was the oldest (female) child. Followed by my father, Saiyed Shamim Shah, Saiyed Kalim Shah, daughters: Najma Shah, Parveen Shah, son: Parvez Shah.

1.Maimoona Shah was married to Dr. Salman (from Kanpur) 2.Saiyed Shamim Shah, married twice. First wife bore him a son, Saiyed Rizwan Shah (Lucknow). second wife, Arifa Shah, bore four kids, sons: Saiyed Kamran Shah (married to Arshia Hussain), Saiyed Shadman Shah (married to Shikha Shah), daughters: Shabnoor Shah (married to Fayaz Pinjari) and Shahnoor Shah (married to Ashraf Mannan). 3.Saiyed Kalim Shah married Shama Shah, who bore four kids, daughters: Hina Shah, Saba Shah, Saher Shah, son: Nadeem Shah 4. Najma Shah married Mr. Aijaz. Son 5. Parveen Shah married Hammad Wajid. Son : Sahil Hammad Wajid 6. Parvez Shah married to Salma Shah. Sons : Syed Shiraz Shah and Syed Faraz Shah ShahsfromNorth (talk) 19:28, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for your research. I think the main criterion is that entries must have their own Wikipedia article (preferable also showing that they are descended from Jan-Fishan Khan). Esowteric + Talk + Breadcrumbs 20:00, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

Thankyou. Would you recommend that I create a separate article on Wikipedia and link it here? 84.169.237.237 (talk) 20:50, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

I think that you'd have to create separate biography articles, and the subjects would have to be notable, ie you'd first have to find at least three reliable sources for a subject. See the Golden Rule, and then write the biographies based on what those sources actually say. Esowteric + Talk + Breadcrumbs 21:02, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, what I've written above is about including these people in the Shah family template at the bottom of the page. If you want to list names in the text of the article, then you'd need a reliable source that proves their connection to Jan-Fishan Khan or to one of his descendants that we already know about. Esowteric + Talk + Breadcrumbs 06:48, 19 October 2023 (UTC)