Talk:Italian front (World War I)

Casualty numbers

First off, the casualty numbers for the Austrians on the sidebar is confusing. Only one source is listed, which does not distinguish between killed, wounded, or POW in its count for individual battles. It also includes a casualty total table at the bottom, but it does not differentiate between fronts (mainly an issue for the Austrians). Instead, it has a note saying that one-third of all Austro-Hungarian casualties were on the Italian front. Unless there is an uncited source, it appears to me that the killed, wounded, and possibly total casualty numbers are taken from this estimation of one-third. Adding together the individual battle casualties for the Austrians, a total of 493,000 is reached, a number not reflected anywhere on this page.

Additionally, for the Isonzo battles, the total war casualty figure for the Italians is listed as 600,000, referring to deaths only (already somewhat confusing), while the Austrian total is listed as 1.2 million, which, according to the casualties and losses table of the sidebar (possibly inaccurate) is the total number of wounded, not killed. The wording for the Austrian casualties is also very strange; they are described as "by no means as numerous [as the Italian casualties]", but go on to cite a 400,000 casualty number, which is definitely higher than the 300,000 figure given for the Italians at the beginning of that section.

The Battles of the Isonzo page has similar wording but instead uses a 200,000 Austrian casualty count, which makes more sense (the 1.2 million figure is still present, however). 2602:306:3483:85C0:F82E:393E:383B:60B8 (talk) 07:24, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

there has been some improvement done since the above comment had been made, but I think there is still some confusion lingering.

Clodfeller [footnote #2] is given as a source supporting the 2,330,000 casualties. However, he states literally that “casualties for the entire war on the Italian Front included: ...[here go figures for Italy, Britain & France]...; the Austro-Hungarian Empire lost 1,420,451 [bold mine], including 653,444 POWs or MIA, plus 5,239 guns”.

Lichem [footnote #5] is given as other source supporting the 2,330,000 figure. However, this referencing seems to be bending the rules. He merely says that Austro-Hungarian casualties on the Italian front were 1/3 of all Austro-Hungarian casualties suffered on all fronts. The author of this footnote proceeds from this point to make own calculations.

Bodart [footnote #4] is given as one more source for the 2,330,000 figure. Unfortunately I do not have access to this source to check. However, from the Schmied-Kowarzik text I understand that Bodart’s figures were highly based on quite arbitrary estimates (e.g. he assumed that 50% of those still unaccounted for in 1921 were dead). Also, I doubt that whoever wrote this article has actually consulted Bodart’s manuscript. If he/she had done so, he/she would have realized that the difference between 1,213,368 dead and 521,146 killed is not only about “missing war-losses”, but includes 3 categories: 1) those who perished in the rear, mostly in hospitals; 2) unaccounted for, so yes, those missing, and ) those who died as POWs. So, I doubt whether any of the figures listed indeed comes form Bodart.

In general, most figures given as the Austro-Hungarian casualties seem to be the result of speculation, interpolation and maths by whoever wrote the article. Moreover, this own maths is not necessarily consistent. At one point 30% and at another 1/3 is referred as a ratio of Austro-Hungarian losses on the Italian front versus overall Austro-Hungarian losses. Well, 30% and 1/3 is not the same; if applied to highest estimates of overall Austro-Hungarian military deaths, the delta between 33,3% and 30% is 45,000 dead, quite a substantial figure.

Unless some additional sourcing is provided, I would suggest to proceed as follows: 1) give 1,420,000 as overall Austro-Hungarian casualties; 2) give 155,000 as KIA; 3) give 477,000 as POWs; 4) remove 400,000 figure for “dead”, 1,210,000+ for wounded and 176,000 for missing

regards,--89.64.66.184 (talk) 08:41, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

Are these numbers accurate? Every source that I've ever seen places far higher casualties for the Italians and the Austro-Hungarians on this front. The Italians especially. If they suffered a minimum of 450,000 deaths during the war, it would make no sense for them to have seen under 250,000 deaths on their only major front. Wouldn't it be better to have a section near the bottom detailing the various opinions of experts on the total casualties of the Italian Front? In fact, the sourced article says that casualties on this front have been underestimated if anything. The POW numbers for Austria-Hungary seem incorrect too. It lists 477,000 captured soldiers, but in the 11th Battle of the Isonzo alone they captured 20,000 more than that. Perhaps it would be better to follow the example of the Second World War Eastern Front article and many others. List the most common numbers given with a see below link for a break down of the losses for the participants on this front. I'm also curious why the other pages weren't edited to fall in line with the lower estimate. The same numners that list 150,000 deaths for Austria on the Italian Front, tells us that 300,000 deaths were suffered on the Eastern Front, but those numbers weren't adjusted. That's the most obvious one, but the Serbian numbers would be incorrect too and should be lowered if these lower estimates are correct. I looked at the numbers for Austria-Hungary. The source appears to be Gaston Bodart, but the numbers being used her add up to a little over 500,000. He also says that they suffered over 1 million deaths and over 300,000 soldiers went missing. Half of those were counted as KIA. The Eastern Front claimed 300,000 of them. The Eastern Front was by far the bloodiest front for the Austro-Hungarians. These numbers aren't really adding up. 96.52.16.187 (talk) 14:05, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Someone needs to change this casualty numbers, they seem pretty wrong especially considering there are more WW1 dead counted on graves for the italian front than deaths presented on here, I would recommend looking on Encyclopedia 1914-1918. 2804:14C:F250:8122:DAE8:44FF:FE8D:4E1A (talk) 18:56, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Putting in the link

Hi; can someone put the link in for Balkan Theatre I have no idea how to do that. Yavneh (talk) 01:00, 30 May 2023 (UTC)