Talk:Israeli apartheid

Tags

@ABHammad: Kindly explain the added tags (and why there are several for apparently the same thing)? Selfstudier (talk) 08:18, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

I reverted @ABHammad's changes here as the phrasing is backed by RS and has long-standing consensus. Ideally they should discuss this change here before applying that label. Smallangryplanet (talk) 08:33, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

I reverted the tags, I agree there is a major problem with the current wording. This article is written like apartheid is a fact in Israel but this is obviously contested. Why is Wikipedia the only mainstream source in the west that says this like a fact? OdNahlawi (talk) 10:46, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Apartheid is fact per every international human rights organization including the world's foremost court, the ICJ. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:51, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Using human rights watch interpretation of the ICJ does not mean that "the world's foremost court" have decided such if they didn't say it clearly. And any way there's much to the world beside the ICJ. Give me one Western liberal country that adopted this usage? thanks OdNahlawi (talk) 10:53, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Why are "Western liberal" countries the authority? It's the consensus of human rights organizations. Bitspectator ⛩️ 11:00, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Human rights organizations have their own (deep) biases. It is not only there isn't consensus among western liberal democracies and main media sources, I don't think any of them has ever endorsed this claim. I think it shows that the usage of apartheid in regards to Israel is primarily a talking point of activists, politicians, and progressive groups, and except those, the allegations are viewed as extremely fringe. OdNahlawi (talk) 11:12, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Governments are not reliable sources. Human Rights Watch is a reliable source per WP. There is no equivalency. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:15, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

An article wide tag is not necessary if the complaint is adequately addressed by inline tags so I removed that.

The opinion of any Western liberal country, in other words, politicians, are noted but not relevant.

The ICJ has concluded that Israel is in breach of article 3 of the convention and "Article 3 obligates governments to prevent, prohibit, and eradicate all racial segregation and apartheid".

Subsequently the UNGA has passed a resolution (this is not yet in the article afaics) stating "Calls upon all States to comply with their obligations under international law, inter alia, as reflected in the advisory opinion.." and "systemic discrimination based on, inter alia, race, religion or ethnic origin in violation of the relevant rules of international humanitarian law and international human rights law, including the Fourth Geneva Convention,3 the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, 4 the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights5 and the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination6 and customary international law".

If there is anything left to decide, it is how exactly to summarize the cumulative opinions of NGOs such as Amnesty, the ICJ/UNGA view, and potentially, the ICC view "Salam’s discussion of the crime should be studied by relevant criminal justice authorities, including the International Criminal Court (ICC) prosecutor, as it outlines the legal framework needed to investigate the crime of apartheid." Selfstudier (talk) 11:53, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Framing the current situation as apartheid in WP:VOICE, solely based on the views of human rights groups whose worldviews increasingly diverge from Western mainstream perspectives, is problematic and has no real impact on the ground. There is a clear reason why the Western world, the only part of the world that actually cares for human rights, including not just governments but also major news outlets, has not endorsed these apartheid allegations—and that is what truly matters in reality. The only countries that endorsed the claims of apartheid (and genocide, and ethnic cleansing, and all the other terms commonly used in recent propaganda) are, ironically, countries like Iran and Syria, which are not very known for their human rights record. ABHammad (talk) 12:18, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

You completely ignored the point we just discussed about governments not being reliable sources. Bitspectator ⛩️ 12:26, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

You completely ignored the point that the entire western world rejects the claims, rendering the views of (politicized/radicalized) human rights organizations irrelevant for many. If we want to comply with WP:NPOV, as we're supposed, we cannot use WP:VOICE to make claims that are rejected by all the vast majority of those who actually care for human rights. ABHammad (talk) 12:30, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm ignoring your personal feelings that this article should reflect the opinion of [specific] countries, and not RS because those RS are in your opinion "radicalized"? Yes. That's my duty as a Wikipedia editor. Bitspectator ⛩️ 12:36, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree mostly wtih ABHammad and Oddnahlawi above. The most correct and encyclopedic presentation of the issue should be something like: Several human rights organizations and some countries, such as Iran and Turkey, have claimed that Israel's policies in the Palestinian territories amount to apartheid. However, most Western governments reject this allegation, typically framing Israel's actions as linked to security concerns rather than an institutionalized system of racial segregation." Galamore (talk) 12:41, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

I think this would be the perfect opening paragraph to an article titled Governments' views on Israel and apartheid. We should ensure the inclusion of South Africa and Jordan along with Iran and Turkey.

Plus, this is illogical: "framing Israel's actions as linked to security concerns rather than an institutionalized system of racial segregation." Israel's actions being justified by "security concerns" has nothing to do with the nature of these actions. I can construct a wall based on security considerations, but that doesn't change the fact that a wall exists. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:46, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

The usage of 'apartheid' is, similarly to genocide, closely related to the aims of a policy, apartheid is conducted for reasons of racial segragation. Walls can be built for various reasons, not all of them related to apartheid. Does anyone claim that the Berlin Wall was apartheid? this claim is empty. Galamore (talk) 12:51, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

No, the usage of apartheid has been documented by an increasing number of detailed reports over the past decade. The usage of genocide is new and no conclusive reports nor an ICJ ruling have been issued. So, again, there is no equivalency. I was not trying to compare walls with apartheid; I was refuting the idea that a justification negates the existence of reality. As another example, you can steal a car and market it as "logistical considerations"; nevertheless, a theft still occurred. Justifications are a marketing strategy and do not negate reality. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:56, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

First of all, the world does not revolve around the western world, and the western world does not revolve around western governments. That being said, the ICJ is based in the Netherlands; the UN is based in the US; HRW is based in the US; Amnesty International is based in the UK. These are western institutions, so the argument that "the entire western world rejects the claims" does not hold up to any scrutiny, and is irrelevant anyway. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:40, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

The composition of the ICJ and the political process by which judges are selected is much more relevant than its physical location. But anyway, it's not accurate to say that the ICJ agreed with the apartheid characterization.

HRW's misleading summary dances around the fact that the opinion itself never made such a statement, only alluding to it with the court’s language is a compromise. They then mention that two of the less-neutral, non-Western judges, Salam (Lebanon) and Tladi (South Africa), did clearly take that position.

Everyone seems to agree that there was no such court finding. The unofficial summary says without qualifying it as apartheid. Judge Nolte wrote that the court [left] open the question [of] whether it considers Israel’s policies and practices to be a form of racial segregation or apartheid.

If anything, this is weak evidence that asserting this in wikivoice is inappropriate. (Weak in the sense that the court didn't reject the claim either, though some individual experts do, such as Alan Dershowitz and Eugene Kontorovich.) — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 15:59, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm struggling to see either Dershowitz (who I recall advocated using torture in criminal investigations) or Kontorovitch (who I'd never heard of but who appears to be an Israeli lawyer who disapproves of sanctions against Israel) as a human rights expert. What makes you think they are more reliable on this subject than an international human rights organisation? John (talk) 16:53, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

There may be better sources, those are just a couple I'm aware of. Dershowitz's position on torture isn't extreme though - it mimics Israel's Supreme Court decision which banned torture except in ticking time-bomb scenarios.

Human rights organizations have political agendas, and at best are only as reliable as the individuals behind them. For example the HRW content being discussed was written by Clive Baldwin, who has some relevant education but doesn't appear to be a LLM/PhD holder or a practicing lawyer. — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 17:32, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

It should be noted that Wikipedia's article on Ticking time bomb scenario does list Alan Dershowitz as a source for the pro-torture side, while providing WP:BALANCE by pointing out that multiple "human rights organizations, professional and academic experts, and military and intelligence leaders" are anti-torture. Governments or individuals making statements, as notable non-expert biased observers, should of course be mentioned, but more weight should be given to human rights organizations and experts. And that's exactly why the pro-torture section of that article is shorter than the anti-torture section. This article should follow the same standard. JasonMacker (talk) 03:13, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

Clearer here: I would like to suggest the next option which I think is much more balanced and encyclopedic than recent changes: Several human rights organizations and some countries, such as Iran and Turkey, have said that Israel's policies in the Palestinian territories amount to apartheid. However, most Western governments reject this allegation, typically framing Israel's actions as linked to security concerns rather than an institutionalized system of racial segregation." Galamore (talk) 12:58, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

The recent UNGA vote on the ICJ opinion can be seen here so it is just not true to say that the Western world is "against", only 14 countries (Argentina, Czech Republic,Fiji, Hungary, Israel, Malawi, Micronesia Nauru, Palau, Papua New Guinea, Paraguay, Tonga, Tuvalu, United States) voted against the resolution. Selfstudier (talk) 13:07, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

How this or that politician chooses to talk about it is completely irrelevant. As per above, their countries are now bound by UNGA resolution. They may choose to ignore it but that has consequences too (UK/Chagos Islands refers). Selfstudier (talk) 13:14, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Having said that, I'm not that keen on the Easter egg in Line 1 tho. Selfstudier (talk) 13:24, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Here is the official publication. Zero^talk 13:43, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

@Makeandtoss: "a system of institutionalized segregation and discrimination" seems to be a quote from Amnesty report? I don't think we want wording tied only to one source? Selfstudier (talk) 14:00, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

That's the textbook definition of apartheid, that was adopted from the Apartheid Convention: "a system of institutionalised racial segregation." So it's a basic definition that cannot be rephrased much. Makeandtoss (talk) 14:27, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

It's also not in the body so we might want to have a think about that. Selfstudier (talk) 14:37, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

If we want a recent RS, there is DAWN mentioning both ICJ and UNGA in one place, and referring to the situation as apartheid, will see if I can find some more. Selfstudier (talk) 14:42, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Lede is a summary so it doesn’t have to be in the body verbatim. Makeandtoss (talk) 14:45, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

So what is it a summary of? Selfstudier (talk) 14:45, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

UN experts here, says "racial discrimination and segregation or apartheid" and expounds at length on third states responsibilities. Selfstudier (talk) 14:45, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Amnesty "its discriminatory laws and policies against Palestinians violate the prohibition on racial segregation and apartheid."

I think this (the article 3 breach) is the most relevant wording that we need to be using. Selfstudier (talk) 14:48, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

I would think human rights organizations are the best qualified regarding human rights issues, instead of countries with a clear political agenda. On one hand you have the ICJ, UNGA, HRW, Amnesty, etc, and on the other hand you have a bunch of countries asserting otherwise. Those countries are actually a minority as Self noted, not "the entire Western world" - and even if that wasn't the case, human rights organizations are clearly the authority here. We do not add POVs from unqualified parties regarding what does and doesn't constitute a war crime (we wouldn't cite a, idk, architect giving his opinion), but are supposed to give equal weight to political institutions? - Ïvana (talk) 13:53, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Countries voting to endorse the ICJ decision did not vote on whether there's apartheid or not, that's a wrong reading of the vote. I haven't seen a single government in the West that officially recognizes the situation in Israel-Palestine as apartheid. You are welcome to prove otherwise. Anyway, the current use of voice to describe the situation is clearly biased and adopts one view over that of countless other sources and governments that do not use this term for Israel-Palestine, because they reject it. ABHammad (talk) 14:51, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

In the document Zero shared:

Affirming in accordance with the advisory opinion of the International Court of Justice, that:

(e) Israel’s legislation and measures impose and serve to maintain a near- complete separation in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, between the settler and Palestinian communities and constitute a breach of article 3 of the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination, which refers to two particularly severe forms of racial discrimination and stipulates that “States Parties particularly condemn racial segregation and apartheid and undertake to prevent, prohibit and eradicate all practices of this nature in territories under their jurisdiction” Bitspectator ⛩️ 15:08, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Bitspectator already covered part of your argument. And borrowing from what they have said before, governments are not reliable sources. Nor do they have the same weight that human rights organizations do, when talking about human rights violations. You want to dismiss their conclusions because, in your opinion, they are "politicized" - are we supposed to believe that governments are not? They are not objective institutions, on the contrary, they all have political agendas that influence their assessments. - Ïvana (talk) 18:49, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Thing to do here is get into all the detail in the article body and what individual judges did and didn't say and what is apartheid/Convention or apartheid/Rome Statute compared to what all the judges signed off on, the article 3 breach. Keane is likely the top rated source for all the details as of right now. To be clear, we do not have a proper conclusion as yet on apartheid. So I don't agree with Line 1 of the lead as is currently, this situation is a bit like the Genocide article just because the title says a thing, that doesn't mean that that it is an incontrovertible fact, even though the case here is much stronger than in the genocide case. We do know that there is an article 3 breach but ICERD does not specifically define apartheid so... Selfstudier (talk) 11:05, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

More here Selfstudier (talk) 11:11, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Reminder this article is about Israeli apartheid, not the ICJ decision; as stated previously, the ICJ ruling is the cherry on top, and not the decisive source. We already have numerous major RS such as HRW and AI. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:32, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Both of whom have updated their positions to reflect the ICJ ruling? Selfstudier (talk) 12:19, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

HRW in its most recent report said the language was a compromise, but that the finding was apartheid; not that there was no finding of which of the two (apartheid or segregation). Makeandtoss (talk) 14:40, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

• Agree with Ïvana that international human rights organisations are likely to be better and fairer judges of matters to do with human rights than governments are. John (talk) 19:36, 8 October 2024 (UTC)
• Even non-authoritarian governments are not necessarily reliable sources. For example, the Japanese government reguarly downplays war crimes it committed against the historical consensus. The Israel-Palestine conflict is so partisan on the global stage that we really shouldn't rely on what governments say on the issue (this goes for both for both pro and anti-Israel states), but instead what non partisan courts, human rights organisations and NGOs have said have about the topic. The consensus among non-partisan sources does indeed seem to be that Israel is committing crimes either of or equivalent to apartheid, and Wikipedia should reflect that. Hemiauchenia (talk) 19:57, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

  Part of the issue is, that the human right sources are not always non-partisan. Specifically in the case of Israel, Amnesty has been long accused for harboring anti-Israel biases. A major staffer once stated that Israel was similar to the Islamic State, the secertary general falsely said on Twitter that Shimon Perres admitted Arafat was murdered, and Amnesty International USA Director stating that "We are opposed to the idea ... that Israel should be preserved as a state for the Jewish people." That's one reason why many people don't see Amnesty a non-partisan source.
  The question here, anyway, was whether the status in Israel and the West Bank can be described in Wiki voice as apartheid (the status in the last months here) or not. The fact that the West did not endorse this framing in major sources is, I think, an answer. Galamore (talk) 12:30, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

  These arguments have already been addressed by multiple users in this thread. I have removed the tags. Bitspectator ⛩️ 14:52, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

  @Bitspectator the tags should be removed when consensus is reached, and it's clear we're not there yet. I don't want admins to get involved but if weren't going be to constructive here we may need to do it, especially since this is the second time an involved party removed the tags in the middle of an ongoing discussion. Kindly restore the tags. Thank you. ABHammad (talk) 07:13, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

  I'll revert, but you have to address the points we're making. Making an argument that's already been responded to (multiple times, by multiple users) isn't constructive and doesn't justify the tags. Bitspectator ⛩️ 11:12, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

  The tags are justified as long as we haven't reached consensus Galamore (talk) 14:27, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

  It's your responsibility to justify the tags. I self-reverted solely to encourage you to do that. Consensus is not uninamity and if WP:IDONTLIKEIT justified a tag, every word of every CT article would have a tag. Bitspectator ⛩️ 14:43, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

  You seem to have understood what consensus is. Read WP:CONSENSUS: "When editors have a particularly difficult time reaching a consensus, several processes are available for consensus-building (third opinions, dispute resolution noticeboard, requests for comment), and even more extreme processes that will take authoritative steps to end the dispute (administrator intervention, arbitration). " Your edit summaries, "consensus against the tags formed", and "allow opportunity to justify tags", goes against good faith, I am afraid. Since you are part of this discussion, it is not for you alone to decide what the consensus is. There are many editors here who do not agree with the current framing. If we cannot reach a compromise, we should try other ways, not just decide to remove tags on your own in the middle of the discussion. That is disruptive. Let's try to work together and reach a compromise for Wikipedia's good. ABHammad (talk) 17:18, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

  Most people here are actually working on the problem and not arguing about tags so if you had something useful to contribute to that effort, have at it. Selfstudier (talk) 17:21, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

  Please do not defend the disruptive removal of tags, done again and again in the middle of discussion. Someone experienced like you should understand the importance of good faith discussion. ABHammad (talk) 17:27, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

  Non responsive. Selfstudier (talk) 17:37, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

  I self-revert at your request and you accuse me of bad faith. Bitspectator ⛩️ 17:32, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

  IMO, you were right to remove the tags. I have re-removed them. This discussion has gone on for ages, and you're right to point out that arguments against these tags are extensive. Not having them is backed by RS and long-standing consensus. Smallangryplanet (talk) 11:46, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

  I agree that there's a bit of a balance issue here. WP:NPOV would suggest that we need to cover a minority POV that questions whether apartheid is the appropriate term to describe this. For example, the book by Benjamin Pogrund, Pogrund, Benjamin (2014). Drawing fire: investigating the accusations of apartheid in Israel. Lanham, Md.: Rowman & Littlefield. ISBN 978-1-4422-7575-1., isn't cited, even though his 2023 Haaretz editorial is cited. That evolution might be worth going into, even though he changed his perspective more recently. Another book that might be useful and isn't cited AFAICT is Ariely, Gal (2021). Israel's Regime Untangled: Between Democracy and Apartheid. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. doi:10.1017/9781108951371. ISBN 978-1-108-84525-0., which describes Israel as a "disputed regime." From the blurb, Some regard the country as an apartheid regime that can only be challenged through boycotts and sanctions. Others believe it is a stable liberal democracy, created under extreme conditions Andre🚐 15:24, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

  Detailed hundreds of pages report published by the world's most prominent rights organizations such as HRW, Amnesty International, and the ICJ have obviously more weight than a sentence sourced to Israeli authors Gal Ariely and Benajmin Pogrund. Given these two groups of sources equal weight would be WP:FALSEBALANCE. Makeandtoss (talk) 21:12, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

  Actually, HRW and Amnesty should be attributed as advocacy groups, per WP:RSP (in controversial cases editors may wish to consider attribution for opinion for the latter, I don't see a listing for the former but should be easy to see why), and ICJ is a primary source that hasn't ruled yet, whereas the books I just offered are reliable sources. While they may have some bias, WP:RSBIASED tells us that this just means we need to balance and attribute them, not exclude them. And in fact as I said, we already cite Pogrund, just his editorial in Haaretz, not his book. That makes no sense. Andre🚐 21:15, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

  That is incorrect, HRW is not considered an "advocacy group" on WP:RSP. Also, this is not a controversial case because this viewpoint is the majority viewpoint supported by HRW, AI, and ICJ; and contradicted seemingly only by two unknown Israeli authors. Makeandtoss (talk) 21:27, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

  HRW is definitely an advocacy group similar to and should be treated the same as Amnesty, and it's been discussed many times in the RSN archives, though I do not know what the consensus is because I haven't checked if there was a recent RFC on its reliability or bias; but I definitely disagree that this is not controversial. It's obviously very controversial and I'm sure there are quite a few other sources that argue these points. It's almost farcical to claim this is settled and not a controversy. Anyway, those authors aren't unknown at all. As mentioned, we already cite one, and the other is Professor in the Department of Politics and Government at Ben-Gurion University of the Negev where his research focuses on democracy and national identity. Andre🚐 21:38, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

  I totally agree, and I want to add that some editors here saying governments are just politicians and therefore should not be considered is completely wrong. Governments are much more complex than individual politicians. If, right now, most Western nations—those who actually care for human rights—do not endorse HRW's and Amnesty's claims of apartheid, it says much more about these advocacy groups than it does about the governments, who more or less agree that the situation, bad as it is, is not apartheid. This should be made clear in the lead, that the Western world has not endorsed these allegations. The current use of Wikipedia's voice to present claims not widely accepted in the West but supported by failed states and totalitarian countries, is bad. ABHammad (talk) 08:08, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

  Countries are not reliable sources. The idea that this article should not only reflect the view of countries, but of a select minority of countries (124 vs. 14) has no merit. Bitspectator ⛩️ 11:32, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

  I don’t understand where the number 124 comes from, as I don’t think there is a list of 124 countries that have endorsed the claim of Israel-Palestine being a case of apartheid. Also, the Western world has different standards for defining human rights, so the views of the EU carry more weight compared to countries like North Korea and Iran, which, let's admit it, may support these claims for political reasons, rather than out of genuine concern for human rights. ABHammad (talk) 17:22, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

  That was already discuss3ed above, by voting for the resolution, the 124 countries endorsed this part of the resolution:

  Israel’s legislation and measures impose and serve to maintain a near-complete separation in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, between the settler and Palestinian communities and constitute a breach of article 3 of the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination, which refers to two particularly severe forms of racial discrimination and stipulates that “States Parties particularly condemn racial segregation and apartheid and undertake to prevent, prohibit and eradicate all practices of this nature in territories under their jurisdiction

  and we have plenty sources for that as discussed below.

  Countries that abstained in effect took no position and 14 objected, including the US and Israel. Selfstudier (talk) 17:29, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

  As on many CT pages, our readers would be better served with description and detail, not controversial labels which tend to evoke emotion and over-generalize the facts. SPECIFICO talk 17:19, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

  If we removed every part of this article that could cause an emotional reaction in someone, there would be no article at all. Bitspectator ⛩️ 17:47, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

  While I agree that readers should be provided with description and detail, I don't think editors should concern themselves with the emotions evoked in readers by any of the 10 billion Wikipedia page views per year or whatever the number is nowadays. It's not relevant to content decisions. Sean.hoyland (talk) 17:57, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

  "emotional" in the sense of knee-jerk reactions to labels as substitutes for factual detail. SPECIFICO talk 02:58, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

The security concerns part should be stated in the context of what critics have called "a pretext"[1] for racism. HRW points out that "denying building permits and demolishing homes that lack them, have no security justification" and "blanket denial of long-term legal status to Palestinians from the occupied territory married to Israeli citizens and residents, use security as a pretext to further demographic goals." VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 07:27, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

• Support removing the tags. This discussion was over a while ago and no new arguments are being made. All points have been thoroughly answered. Tags in themselves do not improve an article. Many of the arguments seem to be late comments on the RM discussion from a couple of years ago. John (talk) 10:18, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

ICJ sources

@Black Kite: regarding your revert, this was discussed above. We have at least five secondary analyses by law professors (I hadn't included [2] per overcite), as well as a judge, confirming the clarification I made.

The source you restored is an article by Haroon Siddique, who holds an undergraduate law degree. It's also written for a lay audience and lacks depth, particular in relation to apartheid claims. Surely this isn't the WP:BESTSOURCE given the available alternatives.

Also while EJIL: Talk! calls itself a blog, it has a team of 14 editors and a review process. Their review process carries much more weight here than that of the The Guardian, whose editors generally have no relevant credentials. But even if these were self-published, all five analyses would easily pass WP:EXPERTSPS. — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 22:30, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Agree. Andre🚐 22:38, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

There is nothing wrong with the sources (except the one part authored and "served for over 20 years in various positions in the International Law Department of the Military Advocate General's Corps in the Israel Defense Forces (IDF), including as the head of the department, and retired at the rank of Colonel), I have more accurately summarized the article body and balanced the one sided source selection. Selfstudier (talk) 11:27, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Recent lede edit

The whole paragraph should be trimmed: "The International Court of Justice in its 2024 advisory opinion found that Israel's occupation of the Palestinian territories constitutes systemic discrimination and is in breach of Article 3 of the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination, which prohibits racial segregation and apartheid. The opinion itself was silent as to whether the discrimination amounted to apartheid while individual judges were split on the issue" Makeandtoss (talk) 19:39, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

I think the former trim would be fine; with the latter it seems important to somehow clarify how the opinion relates to the topic of apartheid. We could trim while individual judges were split on the issue though which is a non-essential detail. — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 15:36, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Fyi @AlsoWukai: since you just copy edited the latter sentence. Waiting for other opinions as well. Makeandtoss (talk) 14:22, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Fwiw, I think the "systemic discrimination" element is due, because it is that finding that led to the Article 3 finding. Selfstudier (talk) 14:43, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Racism and Zionism in lede

Hi @Allthemilescombined1,

I tried to make your recent edit work in the lede, but I ultimately removed it as out of place and WP:UNDUE. Since the lede is a summary of the overall topic, it doesn't need to go into that level of detail about a matter which is tangential to the topic of apartheid. I think you'll need to get consensus here first before reinstating. Lewisguile (talk) 10:12, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

I agree with your removal and would have removed it myself, it is irrelevant to the article in general not just the lede which is about the israeli apartheid, not whether zionism is racist or not. Stephan rostie (talk) 14:52, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

It makes more sense in context, but it's still tangential. If you go to "American views", it's there currently:

In 1975, former US Ambassador to the United Nations Daniel Patrick Moynihan voiced the United States' strong disagreement with the General Assembly's resolution that "Zionism is a form of racism and racial discrimination", saying that unlike apartheid, Zionism is not a racist ideology. He said that racist ideologies such as apartheid favor discrimination on the grounds of alleged biological differences, yet few people are as biologically heterogeneous as the Jews. Moynihan called the UN resolution "a great evil", adding, "the abomination of anti-Semitism has been given the appearance of international sanction by the UN". Vernon Jordan, executive director of the National Urban League, said the resolution smeared the 'racist' label on Zionism, adding that Black people could “easily smell out the fact that ‘anti-Zionism’ in this context is a code word for anti-Semitism”. The General Assembly's resolution equating Zionism with racism was revoked in 1991.

Neither Moynihan nor his argument is important enough to go into the lede and it takes up far too much time to explain its relevance to the topic anyway. Hence, WP:UNDUE. And, TBH, the statement is still probably overly long where it is, even now. Lewisguile (talk) 17:24, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Israeli civil law

@Makeandtoss: In the sentence that conveys who in the West Bank is subject to Israeli civil law, I changed "Jewish settlers" to "Israeli settlers" because it is precisely the Israelis there who are subject to Israeli civil law. The previous wording, by the principle of relevance, misled the reader into wrongly thinking that the legal determination of which law to apply is governed by religion, rather than citizenship.

Your edits (which you claim to be a "middle ground") return the article to that false implication. The article you mention in your edit message ("A Threshold Crossed") does indeed use the phrase "Jewish Israelis", but does not claim that some other laws apply to non-Jewish Israelis in the West Bank. If you wish to convey that non-Jewish Israeli residents of the West Bank are not subject to Israeli civil law, please first find a reliable source that supports such a claim. Or do you have some other motivation? Dotyoyo (talk) 14:04, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

I suggest adding a note to the effect that the vast majority of Israeli settlers are of Jewish nationality as it says in first sentence of the lead at Israeli settlement. "They are populated by Israeli citizens, almost exclusively of Jewish identity or ethnicity,

The situation is more complex than this implies. First, it isn't just a matter of where someone lives but also where they are when they commit an "offence". Second, the rules are somewhat flexible, and in some cases should be called policies rather than rules; this allows the fate of individuals to be decided on a case by case basis. This makes it difficult to find a definitive description. Generally speaking, a Palestinian who is an Israeli citizen will be tried in a civil court, but this needs a search for sources and there are probably exceptions. However, Jews who are not Israeli citizens are always, or almost always, tried in civil courts. Since 1984 this has been explicit policy; the order includes "persons entitled to citizenship under the Law of Return" (i.e. Jews) in the same category as citizens. Many military orders have the same clause. Sorry no citations for now, too busy. Zero^talk 01:49, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

References