Talk:History of education in Wales (1701–1870)

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History of education in Wales (1701–1870) has been listed as one of the Social sciences and society good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Review: October 5, 2024. (Reviewed version).

Education

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History

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A fact from History of education in Wales (1701–1870) appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 22 October 2024 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that approximately 85 per cent of Welsh children were not in school in 1821?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2024/October. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/History of education in Wales (1701–1870).

Wikipedia

GA Review

Passed. It is a wonderful world (talk) 13:58, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This review is transcluded from Talk:History of education in Wales (1701–1870)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: Llewee (talk · contribs) 14:37, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewer: It is a wonderful world (talk · contribs) 18:05, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

It is reasonably well written.
a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
It is factually accurate and verifiable, as shown by a source spot-check.
a (reference section): b (inline citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):
It is broad in its coverage.
a (major aspects): b (focused):
It follows the neutral point of view policy.
Fair representation without bias:
It is stable.
No edit wars, etc.:
It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
a (images are tagged and non-free content have non-free use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
Overall:
Pass/Fail:

Comments

The opening sentence contains redundancy, see MOS:REDUNDANCY.

done--Llewee (talk) 13:19, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As in History of education in Wales before 1701, I think there should be a comment about the state of women and girls' education in the lead.

done--Llewee (talk) 12:50, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A controversial report was published on the use of the Welsh language in education in 1847; the language was largely excluded from the education system in the mid-19th century: I think this should be rephrased to make it clear that the report was negative, and perhaps mention that it was written by the British Government.

I have clarified that it was a government report. The issue is complicated and still quite a sensitive subject today so I would prefer just to leave it at that.--Llewee (talk) 14:20, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah on second thought I agree It is a wonderful world (talk) 18:09, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There was a certain degree of decline in grammar schools during this period, though there was some evidence of an increase in demand: This begs the question of why they would decline despite an increase in demand, but the remainder of the paragraph does not answer this question but rather gives evidence of demand decreasing.

I can't find a direct answer to that question in the sources. I think it relates to the fee-paying pupils side of things which is discussed in the next paragraph. I have added a brief explanation of why Latin was still considered important.--Llewee (talk) 17:22, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's fine. Nothing you can do if the sources don't answer it. It is a wonderful world (talk) 08:53, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Taunton Commission in 1868 noted that twenty towns in Wales, with an average population of 11,000, lacked grammar schools: Is this meant to say 1868, not 1869? I can't check the source on this one. If so, it should link to the Endowed Schools Act 1869.

The commission was in 1868 (see). I have added a link because there is some relevant information in the target article.--Llewee (talk) 14:20, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ah good, glad I didn't change it thinking it was a mistake. It is a wonderful world (talk) 18:16, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A few times, the semi-colon was improperly used. Most of the time it was because the clause after the semi-colon started with a conjunction such as "although", which makes it a dependent clause, and invalidates the use of the semi-colon.

"T. B. Stephens" was referred to several times, but according to the source it is "W. B. Stephens". I fixed these.

Citation [54] has a harv/sfn error. It does not link to the source. I would recommend installing User:Trappist the monk/HarvErrors.js to help you identify these errors as you would any other citation errors in the future. To check if it's working, just scroll to the bottom of History of education in Wales, there is loads of citation errors on that one.

Fixed, I have gotten the installation you mentioned.--Llewee (talk) 09:46, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article refers to the Griffith Jones' schools as "circulatory schools", but the sources overwhelmingly refer to them as "circulating schools". The only source I can find that uses the term "circulatory schools" is W. B. Stephens, but even that only uses the term once, while it also uses the term "circulating schools" several times. I think all instances of "circulatory school" should be changed.

done--Llewee (talk) 15:41, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sources

Fantastic variety of high quality sources!

[2]: No problems (lovely summary might I add)

[3]: No problems

[4]: No problems

[5]: No problems

[18]: No problems

[23]: No problems

[32]: No problems

[34]: No problems

[36]: No problems

[59]: No problems

[60]: No problems

[61]: No problems

[68]: No problems

[69]: No problems

Images

Everything is well illustrated, and all images are appropriately licensed.

Unrelated to GA promotion

Per MOS:DASH, there should be no spaces around the em-dashes, so I removed them.

Per MOS:INITIALS, all initials should have a full stop and a space after them, so I added spaces and full stops.

It would be great if there was an article about circulating schools sometime in the future, the subject is very interesting and notable. It looks like it's in your area of expertise too.

What a great article! The depth of research is fantastic, and you blended the sources together well to give everything great context :)

Thank you, I would like to write articles on the 1650 act and the circulating schools at some stage. But I am back in university soon so will probably have less time for it.--Llewee (talk) 15:30, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Polyamorph talk 12:47, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(

Comment or view
Article history

)

... that in 1821 approximately 85% of Welsh children were not in school?

Source: Keane, Ann; Egen, David; Grigg, Russell; Roy, James; Morgen, Alun; Norris, Barry; Williams, Sian Rhiannon (2022). Watchdogs or Visionaries? Perspectives on the history of the education inspectorate in Wales. University of Wales Press. ISBN 978-1786839404. (page 39)

ALT1: ... that travelling 18th century schools educated around half the population of Wales? Source: Jones, Gareth Elwyn; Roderick, Gordon Wynne (2003). History of Education in Wales. University of Wales Press. ISBN 978-0708318089. (Pages 31 to 45)
ALT2: ... that many 19th century Welsh speaking parents supported their children being educated in English and punished for speaking Welsh? Source: (1)Grigg, G.R. (2005). "'Nurseries of ignorance'? Private adventure and dame schools for the working classes in nineteenth‐century Wales". History of Education Quarterly. 34 (3): 243–262. doi:10.1080/00467600500065126. ISSN 0046-760X – via Taylor & Francis.(2)https://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/history/sites/themes/society/language_education.shtml
Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Marie Marcks

Improved to Good Article status by Llewee (talk). Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 13 past nominations.

Llewee (talk) 13:02, 7 October 2024 (UTC).[reply]

I'd be happy to review this nomination. I will get back tomorrow when I have had time to read it and check the nomination against the criteria. Yakikaki (talk) 21:49, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The article was recently promoted to GA, and is thus new, long and well-written enough. Qpq has been made and there is no picture. Hooks are good, and supported by inline citations - except the last one, for which I cannot find the inline citation supporting the part of the claim that many parents supported their children being educated in English. Could you please add it or point me to it? Otherwise this should be good to go. Yakikaki (talk) 12:43, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Yakikaki, thank you for reviewing this nomination. In regards to ALT2, Grigg 2005 cites the text "Private working-class schools largely taught in English, reflecting the belief of Welsh-speaking parents that learning English was necessary for social mobility. A minority taught in both Welsh and English." The BBC News article cites the text "The Welsh Not would become a focus of great bitterness in the long term. However, according to historian John Davies, when it was used at the time it would have been with the endorsement of parents." Llewee (talk) 14:34, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Llewee, and thanks for getting back so quickly. That's clear then - and the article should be ready for DYK. Great work. Yakikaki (talk) 18:28, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]