Talk:Glossary of His Dark Materials terminology

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Someone with better understanding about the series and the origin of the words used should add "Tartar" to the list and give it an explanation.

Someone apparently did before I got here... SaturnMavi 63.97.219.197 (talk) 02:27, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Additional pronunciations may be helpful. 'Brantwijn' for example - I get the Dutch-style [aɪ] (ij), but some people may not. Is the w pronounced as a v?
'Cauchuc' and 'Chocolatl' could be other possible inclusions.

General Changes

Broke the list-o'-doom into 2 parts: People/Locales and Alternate Naming & Etc list. (Scooted things around to make them fit, of course.) This might make it a little easier to edit and reference in the future. Also made small additons/alterations to Brytian, Corea, Muscovite, New Denmark/France (got a little more in-depth here), and Nipponese. Enjoy! (and hope they don't delete the page) SaturnMavi 63.97.219.197 (talk) 02:27, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

WHOO! They didn't delete it! Stuck a ref on tokay as well as a more probable definition (the WP:tokaji page is missing info on the wine's color), updated the def of projecting lantern as to closer match the notes left by the author concerning Lord Asriel's lantern, tacked a ref on the end of New France to verify Lee's reminising of the Alamo, tacked another ref on projecting lantern as well as updated the definition, minor change to Corea (added that it was used in Cittàgazze), reading thru the books again, may update more at another time... SaturnMavi 63.97.219.197 (talk) 01:27, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Pictures

Does the article need them? If you feel that it does, please list suggestions... SaturnMavi 63.97.219.197 (talk) 01:43, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Pronunciation

"Cittàgazze: chee-tuh-GAHT-s(z)ay (as Italian) [ˌtʃitaˈgatse]" - doesn't seem right. If we keep the stress accent in (Italian) 'città' then it would be pronounced chee-TAH-gaht-s(z)ay. If the other pronunciation is right (how do we know?) then we need to drop the accent. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fredsie (talk • contribs) 18:31, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Mejico, Samoyd and Tokay

The current note, "Mejico: Mexico, from the Mexican pronunciation," seems rather simplified. I would suggest reading the article Name of Mexico.

Having not read the original novels, I might be mistaken, but I believe Samoyd is a reference to the Samoyedic peoples at least as much as to the Sámi. In my eyes, the Samoyds of the movie resemble the Nenets rather than the Sámi, even though their clothing and equipment are probably based on neither of the two cultures. If you care to research into this, please note that the Nenets have often been referred to as Yuraks, or Yurak-Samoyeds, while the traditional name of the Sámi is Lapps. By the way, Lapland is shown on the map of Europe in the movie and occupies roughly the Northern and Eastern parts of Fennoscandia. That is an area that has probably been populated by the Sámi in a distant prehistoric era. Do Pullman's books provide any information on who inhabit Lapland, i.e. the Land of the Sámi, in the world he has created? – I tried to find some further information on the Samoyedic Nenets, and one of the best hits was "The Red Book of the Peoples of the Russian Empire". Regardless of the openly anti-Soviet attitude of the text, the amount of good basic information provided beats Wikipedia. Link: http://www.eki.ee/books/redbook/nenets.shtml

The current Wikipedia page on tokaji of Hungary has a good photo of a most typical "három puttonyos Tokaji aszú" bottle, and it is specifically mentioned below the picture that the "color is often described as 'topaz'." I would really love to know whether Pullman has thought of Hungarian tokaji or Tokay d'Alsace Pinot gris.

Keep up the good work and thank you if you consider my notes. One more question: is it possible to find a listing on what existing non-English languages are spoken in the movie and possibly used in the novels? – Jippe (talk) 05:59, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Regarding Tokay, pretty sure the tokaji article mentions "Tokay" as an archaic english name for tokaji. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.75.71.35 (talk) 11:58, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Are all these definitions accurate?

Are all the definitions accurate? Some of the words used by Pullman are also real-world terms, with different meanings to the ones given here. Are there sources showing that these alternative meanings are what Pullman intended, or is it a mistake on the part of the article? In particular:

• As Jippe mentioned above, the Samoyedic peoples exist in the real world, and are distinct from (albeit related to) the Sami people
• Is a gyrocopter a helicopter, or is it a gyrocopter?
• Is "Coal spirit" petroleum, or is it Coal tar? (I read Northern Lights recently, and seem to remember "rock oil" (an old name for petroleum) being mentioned in addition to coal spirit).
• Is "Muscovy" Russia, or is it just Muscovy? (If the Tatars are still a significant power, able to launch military operations in both the far east and northern Europe, then "Russian" as we know it might not exist.
• The glossary claims that a Lascar is an East Indian, but the Lascar article indicates that the word (in the real world at least) applies to a broader group of peoples than that.

Wardog (talk) 19:58, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

→As far as Muscovy/Russia goes, it would be worth someone doing a line-by-line re-read of HDM canon because at this point, the only mark of separation between the two is coming from shipping notices at the end of Once...in the North. Since the author of the entries sought fit to make Russia and Muscovy apart from each other, it may follow that they are indeed different regions. Also, I'm not confident about your assertions of the Tatars. Even at the height of its power, Imperial Russia lacked 100% control over its more far-flung territories, giving those living there (including Tatars) a marginal degree of independence. Additionally, "Tartar" was frequently synonymous in our world with the Russian people as a whole in many pre-20th century works, enough to the point that if you see a military character complain about fighting "Tartars" in "the war", you could safely assume he meant Russian forces. That usage in our history does make me think that either the same culturally erroneous associations were made in Lyra's world, or that the military forces mentioned in HDM were akin to the Tatar-only regiments of the Russian Empire (of which there were many). In any case, a close examination of canon might sort this out. Or it might not since we only have the barest glimpse of the geopolitics of Lyra's world within canon so far. ¯(°_o)/¯ 99.3.44.167 (talk) 13:29, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

I came across this page by accident and endorse much of the 'are these accurate ?' question. Most of these attempts to define things and places in alternate worlds seem fairly harmless (if often fairly pointless, since the whole History, Geography Biology etc. of these alternate worlds is not simply a tweaked, coyly renamed version of our own). However the description of the Magisterium as "Pullman's version of the Roman Catholic Church) in Lyra's world " seems wholly wrong and indeed belittling the purpose and spirit of the book. Yes, the Magisterium does strongly echo a theocratic authority with elaborated ritual but regarding itself as having ultimate authority, but isn't that a case of 'if the cap fits' rather than a specific representation of the RC Church. I'm sure that Pullman would want to extend the criticism to ANY actual or quasi-religious authority claiming monopoly of truth and demanding total obedience to its dogma (Stalinism, Protestant Fundamentalism etc.).

What is the source for the suggestion that Pullman intended the Magisterium to be the RC Church? I know that many have interpreted it this way (sometimes calling it the medieval RC Church). As far as I know Pullman has refused to be drawn on such questions, as the creator of the book, isn't he allowed the last word? Since I have never known anyone who needed a glossary to understand the purpose of words WITHIN the story, what is the purpose of some of these definitions? They seem very reductionist to me.Pincrete (talk) 20:38, 15 December 2012 (UTC).

Russia/Finland/Muscovy

"The Russia of Lyra's world is Finland in our world" - I'm going to have to disagree, sorry. What may be more logical is that Pullman is referencing the historical inclusion of (what is now) Finland within the Russian Empire. In our world, there was a failed attempt on the part of the Russian Empire to assimilate the Finnish people via forced Russification. Taking into account all the other historical provinces present in Pullman's work, it could safely be assumed that in Lyra's world, the "Muscofication" was successful and that modern day Muscovy/Russia did indeed include what we would call Finland within its borders. Now with that said, I'm altering the entry/ref (taking note of another poster's point about Muscovy/Russia) to the following:

"Russia: Is mentioned in shipping entries at the end of Once Upon a Time in the North, and includes Finnish territory of the Russian Empire(ref). As Muscovy is also mentioned on the same book page, "Russia" might be separate from Muscovy somehow."

and

"Book contains fictionalized extract from "The 'Shipping World' Year Book" which contains co-ordinates for the port of "Novorossisk, Russia", located in Finland in our world (60°47′N 21°24′E).":

I'll be tweaking the "Muscovy/Muscovite" entry as well to take into account the divergence in Once Upon a Time in the North. 99.3.44.167 (talk) 12:54, 8 November 2012 (UTC)