Talk:Herm (sculpture)

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The sense of the etymology

Both here and under the entry for Hermes, the name "Hermes" is said to come from the word "herma" used to describe a pillar depicting Hermes. The god would have to have been part of the lore before becoming the subject of these pillars. Doesn't it make more sense that the pillars would have been named for the god they depicted?

The only way I can imagine it otherwise is if "herma" was already a more general Greek word for a pillar, or for a pillar serving a particular purpose or bearing a particular kind of depiction. Then perhaps some other culture developed a custom of representing a particular deity of their own on similar pillars, and the Greeks applied the name "Hermes" to that god, i.e., "the god that those other people engrave on their hermai", and ultimately adopted the god as their own. —Largo Plazo 15:52, 18 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, as Walter Burkert says, (Greek Religion, p 156), "that a monument of this kind could be transformed into an Olympian god is astounding." His brief notes on hermai leading to that remark, and the references he gives, would be enlightening. --Wetman 19:33, 18 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ah. Now I see that's quoted right there in the Hermes article.--Largo Plazo 19:56, 20 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

References v. External link

I changed the single footnoted reference to an External Link. That wonderful site actually doesn't (on admittedly casual inspection) have text to explain the 2007 incident, only completely delightful photos with the helpful how-to. Moreover, it's a circular citation in that the site references the Wikipedia article. The info in the article came from somewhere; where?

I also added a subhead for the trial of Alcibiades, so the article would conform to Wiki standards in having an introduction. The article deserves further development, and I hope someone will do it. Now let us all hail the U of Chicago students.Cynwolfe (talk) 15:57, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Merge

Yes, I'd just do it, but don't know enough to sort out Hermes/Priapus. Johnbod (talk) 17:27, 5 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Vandalism

The text does not say how the herms were vandalised. I understood they were 'castrated'. Is there doubt about this? Myrvin (talk) 19:08, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thucydides 6.27.1 says they were περιεκόπησαν τὰ πρόσωπα. (mutilated in their faces). Also, the singular is Ἑρμῆς, not ἕρμα. The correct English word is Herm; I don't know why herma appears as an alternative in the dictionary - herma, hermatos, n. in Greek is a prop or a support (in Modern Greek, as well as in Ancient). 86.144.10.251 (talk) 13:43, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Caryatid

It seems to me that the image "Herms with Mannerist antecedents, in A Handbook of Ornament (1898)" shows caryatids, rather than herms. If this is the case, the image should be relocated. Timusuke (talk) 22:37, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

...commonly in English...

You know that's Wikipedia code for "it's time to move the page, right? ;) — $Llywelyn II$ 11:40, 22 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Herma vs Herm

As noted aeons ago by LlywelynII, In academic literature, museum labels, and regular discussion, I think this type of monument is usually referred to as a "Herm" not a "Herma". I have occasionally seen the latter, but mostly in 19th century sources - I think it has fallen out of use. Herm is taken by the island, so I propose this page be moved to Herm (sculpture) (currently a redirect to this page). I think that would require an admin to make the move, so thought it would be good to discuss here before making a move request. Will also post a request for comment on the relevant wikiprojects. Furius (talk) 16:37, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Furius, Or better yet, to Herms? Presently it's just a list of a few names and could be moved to Herms (disambiguation). Or Hermae, Hermai, or almost any title without parentheses, i.e., one that could potentially be used without a pipe link, which should be avoided if possible I think. GPinkerton (talk) 16:55, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The article naming guideline advises using singular forms rather than plural, so herm (as proposed here) rather than herms. Richard Nevell (talk) 17:06, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Richard Nevell, it is probably written that way because adding the caveat "except when the article in question's singular form is a small island" would be too wordy. GPinkerton (talk) 17:56, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

😂 Richard Nevell (talk) 17:59, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comment, Donald Kagan uses "hermae" in his The Peace of Nicias and the Sicilian Expedition, the reference work for the Peloponnesian War, when the famous mutilation of the Herms/hermae took place. It's not that clear that it's outdated. T8612 (talk) 17:21, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That book is forty years old and very much in the minority. Compare Debra Hamel The Mutilation of the Herms: Unpacking an Ancient Mystery (2012); J. C. Quinn, "Herms, Kouroi, and the Political Anatomy of Athens" Greece & Rome 54 (2007) 82-105 ([1]); J. Fejfer, Roman Portraits in Context (2009) pp. 228-235, section "The Herm Shaft"; S. Dillon, Ancient Greek Portrait Sculpture: Contexts, Subjects, and Styles (2006), 30-33, section "The Portrait Herm"; W. D. Furley, Andokides and the Herms (1996). This is also the term used by Brill's New Pauly ([2]), Encyclopædia Britannica ([3]), and the records of the Agora excavations ([4]). Furius (talk) 18:08, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, you're right. T8612 (talk) 21:57, 3 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support move to Herm. No need to use outdated terminology.—Ermenrich (talk) 19:08, 3 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment (2), I think Herma was used to avoid disambiguating with brackets (even though it's outdated), as Herm (sculpture) would do. Not sure what's preferable in this case. T8612 (talk) 21:57, 3 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I don't find that very persuasive as a reason for retaining the current situation. Disambiguation with brackets is widespread on wikipedia. Furius (talk) 16:14, 6 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Mild support: herm is probably the more familiar form now, but herma does appear widely in literature, and was the predominant form in older literature, which is still widely read. Readers can expect to encounter both, so both should appear in the lead, but I don't see why we can't use the more common form as the article title. P Aculeius (talk) 14:39, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom & supporters. Johnbod (talk) 14:45, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Contradiction

In the introduction it says

"Hermae were so called either because the head of Hermes was most common or from their etymological connection with the Greek word ἕρματα (hérmata, meaning 'blocks of stone'), which originally had no reference to Hermes at all."

However, in the 'Uses' section, it says:

"His [Hermes'] name perhaps comes from the word herma, referring to a square or rectangular pillar of stone, terracotta, or bronze; a bust of Hermes' head, usually with a beard"

I am by no means an expert in this, but I did notice it and thought there was a contradiction. Either the second quoted section needs to be removed, or the first needs to be changed to replaced with something like "Hermae were so called because they were etymologically connected with the Greek word ἕρματα (hérmata, meaning 'blocks of stone'), and later became connected to Hermes, as he was most commonly depicted in hermae, giving him his name" Beller0ph0n42 (talk) 09:58, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]