Talk:Wadi Gaza and Besor Stream

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Stream or wadi

Is this watercourse a stream or a wadi? I note that a change in the opening paragraph was made anonymously yesterday. Both terms are referred to in the alternative names in use. BobKilcoyne (talk) 04:30, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

@BobKilcoyne realistically it seems to be an Israeli stream, Besor Stream, flowing into a Palestinian river valley, Wadi Gaza? I don't know why this describes them as one thing? If this is about both, there might be a name for the whole system that the page should have? BottleOfSoup (talk) 22:49, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Synonyms or different things?

Is Besor Stream really the same as Wadi Gaza? Or is Besor Steam a tributary that runs into Wadi Gaza valley / wetlands? BottleOfSoup (talk) 22:46, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Geography Section

The geography section is a bit of a mess. It needs to be put on order to follow along the course of the river, down stream probably works best. But I'm not sure what order that would be without a better map? BottleOfSoup (talk) 05:43, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Explanation of my lede rewrite

The common name is the Besor, as evidenced by the sources. Similar to Jerusalem. The river is in the Gaza Strip and Israel and divides the Strip in half. It is one river and does not have a tributary that spills out at the Israel-Gaza border. The Wadi Gaza reserve is not relevant to the lede and is mentioned in the body, especially because it has been severly damaged in the Gaza war. Closetside (talk) 18:55, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

Upon further thought, we don't need the fact that it divides the Gaza Strip in half in the lede. This is evident from the map and from the Geography section. Closetside (talk) 19:03, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

While boldness is part of Wikipedia, given the topic area I think that consensus should have been established before moving the page. Richard Nevell (talk) 19:06, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

The new title was moved without consensus en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wadi_Gaza_and_Besor_Stream&diff=prev&oldid=1217251590 Closetside (talk) 19:11, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

Heck, by a sockpuppet BottleOfSoup. Closetside (talk) 19:13, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

M.Bitton please give the quote saying the Nahal Besor's source is in the West Bank. Also please ensure you are not referring to the Nahal Gerar or the Nahal Beersheba. From the map in Nahal Gerar it seems to be inaccurate. Closetside (talk) 19:50, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

Requested move 6 March 2025

Wadi Gaza and Besor Stream → Nahal Besor – This is the common name of the stream and an anglicized variant (Besor Stream) was the name until it was moved without consensus or discussion. There is no other tributary of the Wadi Gaza; it is the same stream as the Besor Closetside (talk) 19:26, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

• Comment @Closetside, you stated in the above section "The common name is the Besor, as evidenced by the sources". Could you highlight which sources? Richard Nevell (talk) 21:18, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

  We have to pick one name for the stream (see Gulf of Aqaba or Jerusalem). It seems that the Wadi Gaza is used in the Gaza Strip while the Nahal Besor is used in Israel. However, the vast majority of the river is in Israel and the pre-1948 texts the river, the Christian monks along the riverbanks, including the Gaza portion, and the Bible and its associated study (the stream is in the Bible), uses the name Besor. Therefore, Besor is superior to Wadi Gaza. Closetside (talk) 21:56, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

  Nahal Besor is used in English-language joint-Palestinian-Israeli research, not Wadi Gaza. Here are two scientific papers:

  www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/15715124.2010.491797 and www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/15715124.2010.491796#d1e854

  Considering the joint research teams, which included funding from both Israel and the State of Palestine settled on the name Besor, this should hammer home Besor Stream is superior to Wadi Gaza. Closetside (talk) 22:14, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

  If we have two names for the same thing then we should consider the common name as that will best serve information seekers. Based on Google Scholar results 'Wadi Gaza' is used much more often than 'Besor Stream' (1,040 results for Wadi Gaza compared to 35 for Besor stream). If we add Nahal Besor into the mix, that gives 904 results, but that isn't one of the proposed options. Richard Nevell (talk) 22:44, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

  You forgot the alternate "the Besor" which gives 683 results [1], while the spelling "Wadi Ghazza" only gives 56 "Wadi+Ghazza"&btnG=, Wadi Ghazzah only 24, and Wadi Ghazzeh 353. 1622 is greater than 1473, so the scholarly literature perfers Besor. Perhaps it should be Nahal Besor like Nahal Gerar. Closetside (talk) 23:02, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

  There are also 9 for Nachal Besor and 2 for Nakhal Besor. 6 for Wadi Gazzah and 33 for Wadi Gazzeh. So 1633 versus 1512, so Besor is the common name. Closetside (talk) 23:06, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

  Simply 'Besor' is not what you proposed as the title, hence why I did not search for it. If we accept the aggregates you suggest above, 1633 over 1512 is a majority but certainly not overwhelming enough for it to be a straightforward decision. If anything it shows that the two terms are used almost as often as each other. In which case, why should one be preferred over the other? Richard Nevell (talk) 23:11, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

  We have to pick one; that's the standard. And Besor is more common. Due to the style of not anglicizing the word nahal for rivers, it should be moved to Nahal Besor. Closetside (talk) 23:19, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

  I am fine with something similar to what's present in Nahal Alexander. Closetside (talk) 23:20, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

  If you are still working out what the preferred title should be, perhaps starting a requested move was premature as the proposal is not consistent. Richard Nevell (talk) 23:31, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

  Nope. I have the title; it is Nahal Besor. Here is why.

  1. In every other case of two widely used names, we pick one. See Nahal Alexander or the Gulf of Aqaba.

  2. Besor is more common than Gaza (including variants)

  3. Nahal Besor is the most common version of Besor.

  With that I rest my case. In fact I’ll take a wiki break and check on my RMs not earlier than a week from now. Closetside (talk) 01:55, 7 March 2025 (UTC)

  Since you have settled on the proposed title, please could you update the move request so that it accurately reflects your proposal. Richard Nevell (talk) 22:04, 7 March 2025 (UTC)

  Done! Closetside (talk) 22:35, 7 March 2025 (UTC)

Split The evidence presented above shows that both names for the river are in common use. Google Scholar is a crude measure, but it doesn't indicate that one is overwhelmingly more common than the other to the point that it should be the default title. If we were considering two topics vying for a single spot there would be a good case for a disambiguation page with neither bring the primary topic. Where I have encountered the topic is in literature about archaeological sites in the Gaza Strip, and they commonly refer to the Wadi Gaza. When referring to the feature as such in one Wikipedia article it does not seem appropriate to direct readers to one titled Nahal Besor. I have gone through sources used in the articles on Tell es-Sakan, Al-Moghraqa, and Taur Ikhbeineh

Just wadi Gaza

• Andreou, Georgia M. (2023). Gaza Maritime Archaeology Project (PDF) (Report). Honor Frost Foundation. Archived from the original (PDF) on 23 August 2024.
• Andreou, Georgia M.; Fradley, Michael; Blue, Lucy; Breen, Colin (2024). "Establishing a baseline for the study of maritime cultural heritage in the Gaza Strip" (PDF). Palestine Exploration Quarterly. 156 (1): 4–42. doi:10.1080/00310328.2022.2037923. ISSN 0031-0328.
• Andreou, Georgia M.; Elkhoudary, Yasmeen; Hassouna, Ayman (2024). "New investigations in Gaza's heritage landscapes: the Gaza Maritime Archaeology Project (GAZAMAP)" (PDF). Antiquity. 98 (400): 1–9. doi:10.15184/aqy.2024.68. ISSN 0003-598X.
• Armaly, Fareed (2008). "Crossroads and Contexts: Interviews on Archaeology in Gaza". Journal of Palestine Studies. 37 (2): 43–81. doi:10.1525/jps.2008.37.2.43. ISSN 0377-919X.
• Clarke, Joanne; Steel, Louise (1999). "Demographic patterns and differential settlement in the Bronze Age landscape of Palestine". The Landscape of Palestine: Equivocal Poetry (PDF). Birzeit: Birzeit University. pp. 211–231. hdl:20.500.11889/4685.
• Bergoffen, Celia J. (2023), "The Middle to Late Bronze Age Transition at Tell el-ʿAjjul in the light of exchanges between Cyprus and the Eastern Mediterranean", in Hausleiter, Arnulf (ed.), Material Worlds: Interdisciplinary Approaches to Contacts and Exchange in the Ancient Near East: Proceedings of the Workshop held at the Institute for the Study of the Ancient World (ISAW), New York University 7th March 2016, Archaeopress, pp. 45–52, doi:10.2307/JJ.15135934.11
• de Miroschedji, Pierre; Sadeq, Mo'ain (2005). "The frontier of Egypt in the Early Bronze Age: preliminary soundings at Tell es-Sakan (Gaza Strip)". In Clarke, Joanne (ed.). Archaeological Perspectives on the Transmission and Transformation of Culture in the Eastern Mediterranean. Council for British Research in the Levant. pp. 155–169. JSTOR j.ctv310vqks.24.
• Morhange, Christophe; Hamdan Taha, Mohamed; Humbert, Jean-Baptiste; Marriner, Nick (2005). "Human settlement and coastal change in Gaza since the Bronze Age". Méditerranée: Revue géographique des pays méditerranéens. 104 (104): 75–78. doi:10.4000/mediterranee.2252.
• Steel, Louise; Clarke, Joanne; Sadeq, Moain; Manley, Bill; McCarthy, Andrew; Munro, R. Neil (2004a), "Gaza Research Project. Report on the 1999 and 2000 seasons at al-Moghraqa", Levant, 36: 37–88, doi:10.1179/lev.2004.36.1.37
• Steel, Louise; Manley, Bill; Clarke, Joanne; Sadeq, Moain (2004b). "Egyptian 'Funerary Cones' from El-Moghraqa, Gaza". The Antiquaries Journal. 84: 319–333. doi:10.1017/S0003581500045856.
• Steel, Louise; Manley, Bill; Clarke, Joanne; Sadeq, Moain (2002), "Late Bronze Age Gaza: prestige production at el-Moghraqa", Antiquity, 76 (294): 939–940, doi:10.1017/S0003598X00091663

Uses both

• Horwitz, Liora Kolska; Tchernov, Eitan; Mienis, Henk K.; Hakker-Orion, Dalia; Bar-Yosef Mayer, Daniella (2002). "The archaeozoology of three Early Bronze Age sites in Nahal Besor, northwestern Negev". In van den Brink, Edwin C. M.; Yannai, Eli (eds.). In Quest of Ancient Settlement and Landscapes: Archaeological Studies in Honour of Ram Gophna. Ramot Publishing and Tel Aviv University. pp. 107–133.

  Covers length of the watercourse beyond Gaza. “Nahal Besor (also known as Wadi Ghazzah), is a seasonal stream forming the major drainage channel of the Beersheva basin”

• Oren, Eliezer D.; Yekutieli, Yuval (1992). "Taur Ikhbeineh: Earliest Evidence for Egyptian Interconnections". In van den Brink, Edwin C. M. (ed.). The Nile Delta in Transition: 4th–3rd Millennium B.C. Tel Aviv: Israel Exploration Society. pp. 361–384.

  Written when Gaza was an occupied territory, and a different toponymy appears to have been preferred by the researchers. The Arabic name is given on the first occurrence: “Taur Ikhbeineh is located … on the west bank of Nahal Besor (Wadi Gaza, Wady Ghazzeh), about 3 km from the Mediterranean”

• de Miroschedji, Pierre; Sadeq, Moain (2008). "Sakan, Tell es-". The New Encyclopedia of Archaeological Excavations in the Holy Land. Vol. 5: Supplementary Volume. Israel Exploration Society/Biblical Archaeology Society (BAS). Archived from the original on 23 June 2024. Retrieved 23 June 2024 – via BAS Library.

  ”Located on the northern bank of Naḥal Besor (Wadi ‘Azza)”. This contrasts with De Miroschedji and Sadeq’s other publications on Tell es-Sakan which mention the Wadi Gaza but not the Nahal Besor. Those in French are not listed above, but their 2005 paper in English is. The contrast may be due to a different editorial process as the New Encyclopaedia of Archaeological Excavation in the Holy Land is published by the Israel exploration Society.

This is what informs my thinking. I do not present it as comprehensive, but it appears to me that there is generally a consensus that when the stretch of the watercourse in the Gaza Strip is being referred to it is named the Wadi Gaza. Oren 1992 is the exception amongst the above, but was written in a political context where the local name was given secondary consideration.

The other side of the equation is that given that Nahal Besor is commonly used by Israel readers at articles referring to the Nahal Besor would expect the article they arrive at when following a link to reflect that.

As both terms are in use and used in different contexts, I think there is scope for a significant change: splitting this page into two so there is an article on the Wadi Gaza and another on Nahal Besor. They can have different scopes. The article on the Wadi Gaza can note its historical usage while focusing on the present day extent, ie: the watercourse within the Gaza Strip. There are well documented challenges with sewage discharging into the Wadi Gaza, and that poses ecological problems that aren't faced upstream. It also appears prone to flooding whereas the portion of the watercourse further upstream is less so. And I don't think the part in Gaza has any dams or reservoirs, contrasting with the stretch in Israel. By necessity there would be overlap between the two pages, and they should signpost clearly to each other, but this is consistent with the principle of writing in a summary style; each could have a section summarising key points of the other article and different articles can have different levels of detail. Richard Nevell (talk) 01:02, 13 March 2025 (UTC)

It is clear from the uses both section they are the same stream; hence I oppose splitting. More formally, a split would violate WP:REDUNDANTFORK, because the articles would be about the same stream. Splitting would also deviate from the standard set by Nahal Alexander, Nahal Sorek, Hadera Stream, or the Lakhish River, or any other stream in Israel, Palestine, or both, with an etymologically different Hebrew and Arabic name.

From every example where both terms are used, Besor is preferred to Gaza. Furthermore, the scholarly literature slightly favors Besor to Gaza. Hence, move to Besor. Closetside (talk) 04:39, 13 March 2025 (UTC)

As outlined above, the proposed split would create two pages with different scope. By a strict reading the terms are interchangeable, but their use in the literature shows that they are used in different contexts. It is similar to how we have an article on châteaux and one on castles. Changing the emphasis to be about the use of the terms makes them distinct subjects. Richard Nevell (talk) 07:42, 13 March 2025 (UTC)

Lede content discussion

That doesn't explain why you removed the sourced content. Was it to make it fit the title that you're after? M.Bitton (talk) 19:33, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

Yep. Alright, I will include the Arabic name in the title as infobox as well. Closetside (talk) 19:36, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

That doesn't come close to explaining the sourced content removal. M.Bitton (talk) 19:42, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

The only thing I didn't restore was the nature reserve's rehabilitation in 2022 which is not pertinent, considering the Gaza war. Closetside (talk) 19:44, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

It is in the body Closetside (talk) 19:44, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

I restored the source content. I've got other things to do and I will rewrite if and after this RM succeeds. Closetside (talk) 19:57, 6 March 2025 (UTC)