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History Starts Too Late

Untitled

The history might, nay should, include the 1990 promise by the West to not expand eastward beyond what was then East Germany. Defense News, in an article no longer on their website, said:

“

In 1990, then-Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev consented to the

reunification of Germany as a NATO country, but thought he had secured a U.S. promise not to expand the alliance further into Eastern Europe. Instead, the Baltic states joined NATO, the alliance went to war against Russia's historic ally, Belgrade, and now Georgia and Ukraine are poised to join as well.

”

Another source at cdi.org, in another expired link, said:

“

"Nezavisimaya Gazeta" considers it appropriate to remind the president

and society that when West Germany and East Germany were re- unified, President George H. W. Bush and German Chancellor Helmut Kohl gave a firm promise not to move NATO eastward. And they easily broke that promise.

”

--Tomday (talk) 01:10, 4 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

First off, expired links are always a problem. If a topic is actually important, it should have a variety of published sources available on or offline. That said, I think too much is probably made of this topic on other NATO articles already, and I don't know how that really relates to Georgia's relationship with the NATO military alliance specifically. Even if much of this article is spent on the potential of Georgia joining NATO, there's very little action being taken. Further, Wikipedia doesn't need to feature Gorbachev's 1990 perception of his negotiations; they're out of date, unproven, and as I see, not featured in prominent sources either now or at its time. George H. W. Bush is no longer president, Helmut Kohl no longer chancellor, and Gorbachev no longer premier, and none were when NATO first expanded in Eastern Europe in 1999. If you want to discuss it, his view was frankly of a bi-polar world where the U.S. controlled NATO, able to stop or start its expansion, a view that's perhaps more akin to the Soviet domination of the continent, and one that I think ignores the current self-actualization of a country like Georgia, where the population generally favors aligning militarily with others in Europe and North America.-- Patrick, _oѺ^∞ 05:58, 4 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There's a whole article in Foreign Affairs about this dispute here. Yakikaki (talk) 07:44, 4 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

A number of declassified primary sources, presumably the ones referred to in that article, can be found here. Skyvine (talk) 00:54, 21 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

Removed the dispute image because there was no indication on the talk page what the dispute was about..

Article X Conflict

For the second time, today I removed this section:

“

Article X of the NATO charter limits membership to European states. The UN officially recognizes Georgia as part of Western Asia as does the US CIA Factbook. In fact, the crest of the Caucasus is almost universally recognized as the geographic boundary between Europe and Asia meaning that Georgia is entirely within Asia proper. However, some NATO members seem ready to overlook the Article X restriction as it was dropped from the description of the Article in the report issued by the Burachest summit.

”

I find it to be unsourced, unnecessary, and biased. I think there is a place for this thought that NATO is limited to European states, but not by saying something "is almost universally recognized". Who is this universe that recognizes something? What does the CIA Factbook have to do with this, does NATO use it, does Georgia?--Patrick Ѻ 23:07, 26 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For the third time I have readded the section on the Article X conflict with Georgian membership but this time I have copied it VERBATIM from the article on Georgia. If there is any bias it is not my own. I think that a conflict between the inclusion of Georgia and the NATO charter is very relevant to an article about Georgia and NATO and should not be removed. I suggest that you refer to the talk page in the main Georgian article for more information but unless it changes in the main Georgian article I do not see any reason that it should not be included VERBATIM in this article. --Nathaniel

I agree with Patrick. We don't know which maps or definitions are used by NATO. As long as no one notable addresses this issue, I would not mention it, as this would constitute OR. Sijo Ripa (talk) 20:28, 27 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nathaniel, just because something is written elsewhere on Wikipedia doesn't necessarily mean that it is verified or cited. I'll add a sentence that is copied from the Georgia article because it has a source and notes that the issue is controversial without taking a side on the issue.--Patrick Ѻ 22:29, 27 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It may not be clear how NATO defines Europe but they do explicity state that to join a State must be European. There is no original research in saying that Article 10 limits membership to European states or that "virtually all" existing maps align Europe's border with the skyline of the Caucasus (in the main talk page there are references to support this). This controversy is pertainent to an article discussing NATO enlargement to include Georgia.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.26.117.1 (talk • contribs)

That would be OR; it would be combining two facts to advance the (implicit or explicit) position that Georgia is perhaps not an European country, and thus perhaps that Georgian membership would require NATO to make an exception. Only when an external (non-Wikipedian) notable and reliable source makes this synthesis, we can add it.Sijo Ripa (talk) 09:55, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Shut up Sijo Ripa! Georgia is an European Country! People are Nordics and Alpines, Culture and Religion is European. Geography is European! Caucasus Mountains are in Europe! --Obitauri (talk) 21:07, 8 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

NATO with Russian troops? False or True

In Nato Bucharest Summit 2008, Germany and some allies rule out MAP for Georgia because Russian troops are present as peackeepers since 1992. The goal of Nato, as it claimed in 1956 by first Nato General Secretary Lord Ismay, is to "keep the Russian out". It's easy to understand why in Bucharest summit, European allies are against to US's desire to take Georgia (and Ukraine) into Nato.

In last December foreign ministers meeting, Nato is likely to rule out this goal when it make a new format for these two ex-soviet republics by "no prejudice further decision which must be taken about MAP". But where's MAP? Iriconally, MAP is an "invitation to invitation" or promise of Nato and "Annual National Program" assigned to Georgia and Ukraine seems to be a pre-Map which Nato allies can deny it easily.

Whether or not the undeclared and fundermental goal of Nato, i.e. "keeping the russian out" is respected or US wants to save face by bypassing MAP, it's not easy to know because it depends on whether Nato changes this covert goal.

In fact, Russia took advantage of this undeclared goal of Nato and Kosovo precedent to trap and invade Georgia and recognize two breakaway provinces Abkhazia and South Ossetia of Georgia.Buianh (talk) 17:27, 7 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Rename Article?

I think this article should be renamed to "Accession of Georgia to NATO", like the other candidate countries. Both NATO and Georgia say they have a goal of bringing Georgia into the alliance.

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Picture change

Hey, just wanted to point out that the main picture for the article is outdated with the accession of Sweden to NATO yesterday, on the 7th of March 2024. In the current picture, Sweden is only partly colored in. 139.180.41.207 (talk) 14:52, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]