Talk:Emile, or On Education

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Bad link

External links: The Emile of Jean-Jacques Rousseau at Columbia.edu — complete French text and English translation by Grace G. Roosevelt (an adaptation and revision of the Foxley translation) is no longer available on columbia.edu. Searching the site for Emile indicates that the whole project has been trashed. Echinops (talk) 10:47, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Title

Hi,

I think this page should be renamed Emile, or On Education. Yann 20:04, 15 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It seems from a look at amazon etc, that the colon is usual. Anarchia 05:14, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I think this page should be renamed ”Émile: or, On Education.” Caspian Rehbinder (talk) 09:15, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Assistance

If anyone would like to work on this page together, please drop me a line at my talk page. It is a big undertaking and I would rather not do it alone! Awadewit ^Talk 06:37, 6 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus. --BDD (talk) 17:42, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Emile, or On Education → Emile – WP:SUBTITLES uses another Rousseau novel, The Social Contract, as an example of when to drop a book's subtitle. The most renowned book in the study of education would appear to warrant similar treatment. "Emile" currently redirects to a disambiguation page when a grok.se search clearly places Rousseau's book as the primary topic:

Emile (redirect to disambig page) → 18/day
Emil (disambig page) → 121/day
Emil (given name) → 50/day
Aquila Emil → 4/day
Emile, or On Education → 286/day
Émile (novel) → 2/day
Emil i Lönneberga → 74/day
Kurt Maschler Award → 6/day
Emil River → 4/day
Emile (film) → 23/day

In JSTOR and similar searches, reliable sources tend to refer to the work as "Emile" and not the longer title with or without the diacritic. A hatnote would link to Emil for other uses. --Relisted. Steel1943 (talk) 07:42, 7 November 2013 (UTC) czar ♔ 23:20, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Short titles are an exception, especially when ambiguous, according to that guideline, and if grok.se is used maybe The Social Contract should be moved: 692/day compared with 2233/day for Social contract. Peter James (talk) 19:01, 3 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The difference is that no one is arguing for SC→TSC. Anyone searching for TSC will find Rousseau, for which they're most likely searching. I argue that "Emile" searches on both Wikipedia and Google are almost exclusively for the Rousseau title, so the Rousseau title should assume the primary topic from its current long form. czar ♔ 20:08, 3 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"The social contract" doesn't always refer to the book; it's an alternative form of "social contract", particularly to anyone more familiar with specific examples of it (of which the book could be one). I know it shouldn't be moved, because of WP:THE, but maybe redirect The social contract to Social Contract (disambiguation). The article even starts "In political philosophy the social contract". Peter James (talk) 20:23, 3 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support, WP:COMMONNAME, WP:CONCISE, and WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Since the proposed target is neither Emil nor Émile, the factors making it an altogether different word should suffice to clear the way for this topic to be at its natural title. Cheers! bd2412 T 18:42, 6 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I strongly prefer Émile to the proposed title. Srnec (talk) 01:22, 8 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

To the point where you'd oppose a move to the proposed title? The book is most often referenced without the diacritic. czar ♔ 02:08, 8 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

To me, "Emile" and "Émile" are pronounced differently. The accent has a purpose, even if many do not know what it is. So when I see "Emile" I cannot immediately identify it as a French word. But when I see "Émile", it is immediately obvious. I do not see how the presence of the accent, which is correct, could possibly cause confusion or surprise. Srnec (talk) 04:18, 8 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. Emile is a given name and that is the primary topic. The fact that we have chosen to combine Emil and Emile in one dab page does not make the proposed target available. Without considering all of the articles for a person commonly known as Emile, the numbers presented above are not sufficient to justify a move. Add in the remainder of the articles and clearly the numbers will be against this move. Nothing is broken so there is nothing to fix. Vegaswikian (talk) 02:49, 14 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Vegaswikian. I've never heard of the book, but have heard of plenty of people with this given name. There is also an Ian McKellen film called "Emile" so really there is no legitimate reason to make this move. — Amakuru (talk) 13:33, 15 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Emile, or On Education/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

===Emile: Or, On Education===

I have been working on this page and have assessed it as "Start." It needs at least the following:

a fleshing out of the major sections
an explanation of the relationship between Emile and Rousseau's other's works
a history of Emile's reception

Awadewit 10:38, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Substituted at 18:16, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

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