Talk:Eleazar birabbi Qallir

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Text and/or other creative content from this version of Talk:Eleazar Kalir was copied or moved into Talk:Eleazar ben Killir with this edit on Sep/25/13. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.

Text and/or other creative content from this version of Eleazar ben Killir was copied or moved into Kinnot with this edit on Oct/8/13. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.

Proper Spelling of Kalir's name

Eleazer (sic!) is a non-existent name. There is Eleazar (or more precisely El'azar) and Eliezer (or more precisely Eli'ezer). In the former case the final syllable is stressed, in the latter - the penultimate one. Eleazar berabbi (ben rabbi) Kalir (or Qallir) is the accepted spelling of the poet's name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eliyyahu (talk • contribs) 03:21, 28/Sep/06.

ELEAZER is how it appears in the 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica, although it is wrong. I do think this article deserves a name change since the subject is hardly ever called "ben Killir". -- -- -- 01:26, 1 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There are over 27,000 hits on Google for Eleazar ben Kalir, and just over 7,000 hits for Eleazar ben KALLIR. I am personally more familiar with the ben Kalir spelling. As for the Eleazar, even though it is not a correct transliteration, it is the version most academic works use, so we should stick with it and include alternative spellings in the first line, as has been done. Yoninah (talk) 13:47, 1 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Update: The page has since been renamed Eleazar ben Kalir by Ar2332 (talk · contribs). Thanks. -- -- -- 20:48, 6 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"Ma'adanei Yom Tov"?

Could somebody please verify and expand this edit: what is Rosh to Brochos Siman 21? Is "Ma'adanei Yom Tov" mentioned by Yom-Tov Lipmann Heller, as I see in his Hebrew entry? RickJP 10:06, 16 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Rick, I made some changes to the article. Rosh to Brochos Siman 21 means Asher ben Jehiel's commentary on Tractate Berakhot, ch. 5, part 21. "Ma'adanei Yom Tov" was authored by Rabbi Heller. Is the article clear now? -- -- -- 01:56, 1 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Scientific Guidelines

This article does not conform to any scientific guidelines of Jewish Studies at all. The Rosh is not an authority on Jewish History. THe article should revert back to the Jewish Encyclopedia version pending real editing. --82.166.227.63 19:55, 21 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I made some changes to the article. Are you satisfied with it now? (More changes and wikification are on the way, God-willing). -- -- -- 02:02, 1 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

OK. I think I'm finished with this article for now. -- -- -- 00:22, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

His city

If he himself mentions his city as Kirjath-sepher, how can others place him elsewhere? The answer is, I believe, that he may have lived in different places at different times. Because of original research, however, I don't think this can be inserted into the article yet unless someone finds a source. -- -- -- 02:06, 1 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Kalir or Killir

The page's title, and most of the text, uses the spelling Killir. But the article itself points out, In the acrostics of his hymns he usually signs his father's name, Kalir, but three times he writes Killir. It would seem to make sense then to move the page and change the spelling used.

Going by the Google results count, Eleazar ben Killir has about 1230 results (and a did you mean), while Eleazar ben Kalir has about 16700 results. Scimonster (talk) 20:16, 8 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Please see #Proper Spelling of Kalir's name above. -- -- -- 20:50, 6 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

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"Birabbi"

Hey @Ogress I see that you moved this page to "Eleazar birabbi Qallir" in August. Usually the bet of בירבי is spelled with tsere. It is understood as assimilation of ben, which is almost always spelled with tsere or segol, not hireq, or Aramaic beir (cf. bar). In some contexts it may be beit or Aramaic bei, also with tsere. You can see it with tsere throughout Vat. 66, for example f. 13r line 4, or in this geniza fragment line 11. Doron Yaaqov in his עדה ולשון on Yemenite tradition says that they pronounced it with tsere, and Kohut here also suggests tsere. Guggenheimer uses tsere in his Yerushalmi, etc.

In opposition one can cite MS Kaufmann A50, with hireq. Probably connected to the strange way it spells רבי, initial shewa.

Anyway I think it should be "Eleazar beRabbi Qallir" but repeated moves are disruptive so making sure you agree first. There's 250 years of scholarship on this word, including a recent (very long) book by Shamma Friedman, haven't read half of it. A pedant might insist on "BeRibbi" but I'd rather it be recognizable in English. GordonGlottal (talk) 00:57, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I moved it according to the scholarship: I honestly have not once seen it translated as berabbi; in particular, Laura Lieber transliterates it as birabbi Qallir and I'd hate to disagree with her! Most disagreements is about whether it is Qillir or Qallir, and there's not much of it. here's google books. i see it also in transliterations done by websites, as magnes press' hebrew edition of qedushtaot for matan torah. Do you have appearances of his name by scholars that are berabbi? I wouldn't object to the move I just wanted to be sure we're on the same page. Ogress 17:27, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just searching on Google it seems that "Eleazar be-Rabbi" + "Eleazar beRabbi" (1149 results) is much more common than "Eleazar biRabbi" + "Eleazar bi-Rabbi" (291). But I guess I'd rather think about the patronymic in general than in this particular name. There is also apparently a third position, you can read here that the yodh indicates a segol. To me that seems rather unlikely but I suppose it would also be transliterated "BeRabbi". We can discuss Lieber another time. GordonGlottal (talk) 19:52, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, if that's the standard, the norm is to use berabbi. Question: were you going to capitalise it BeRabbi? I see Berabbi, beRabbi, and berabbi. Ogress 12:42, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for the delay :( I just tried a gazillion combos on case-sensitive Ngram and it only found non-caps. So I think "beRabbi". GordonGlottal (talk) 01:30, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]