Talk:ETA (separatist group)

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Chronological Archives
Archive 1
Archive 2
Archive 3 (Nov 2006 pre-mediation)
Archive 4

Logo

Does anyone have information about why ETA use an asclepius staff as their logo? It'd be appreciated if anyone could add this info to the article. 144.32.196.3 12:32, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

It´s not the asclepius nor the caduceus. ETA uses an axe, not a staff or a winged rod. The axe signifies the toughness and the snake sigil in words of [Felix Likiniano]http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felix_Likiniano the designer of the simbol.

Please remember I copied:

Satanic Ritual Abuse (SRA)--This is used to represent all categories of ritual abuse which would be inspired by the desire to rob, kill, or destroy something worthwhile in a person, especially their freedom of thought. Many groups carrying out SRA do not mention Satan by that name. They may make Pacts to Baphomet, and call upon Rex Mundi, or Belair, or Lucifer, or the Father of Light, God, or Kali or even "Jesus" or "Jesus Christ" (there are demons which call themselves "Jesus", who are not to be confused with Yeshua or Yehoshua ben Joseph who is known as Jesus Christ of Nazareth.) SRA is not a value judgement by the authors against some group, the victims themselves on some level know that he or she is being abused. That sound as the use of ETA symbol described —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.47.192.162 (talk)

Wikipedia:No original research explains that you should not abuse Wikipedia to promote your own ideas. If you can not find reputable references for your theories, Wikipedia is not the right place for them. --Error 00:10, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Marxist-Leninist?

Are they really? What is the status of the two web links cited for this statement? They don't seem at first sight to be reliable sources. Itsmejudith 08:36, 17 July 2007 (UTC).

They are, as far as I know, at least theoretically. In practice, though, the generalized opinion in Spain is that they resemble more a fascist group.Juanmejgom 03:11, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't see much sense in describing ETA as Marxist-Leninist. They may in the past have been influenced by such ideology but the basis of whatever ideology they have left is clearly nationalism. I would propose that this section be amended to to say that they were originally inspired by Marxist ideas - as with many groups emerging in the late 60's - but that this is no longer the most inportant part of their ideology. Southofwatford 18:01, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Nationalist or Terrorist?

ETA: Designated as Foreign Terrorist Organization by the U.S. State Department Designated as Proscribed Group by the UK Home Office Designated as terrorist group by EU Common Foreign and Security Policy

Al-Qaeda

Designated as Foreign Terrorist Organization by the U.S. State Department Designated as Proscribed Group by the UK Home Office Designated as terrorist group by EU Common Foreign and Security Policy

Why if they are defined in the same way, in wikipedia one is defined as terrorist and the other as separatist, lets call them both the same, as they are and make wiki more consistent.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Khiritsu (talk • contribs)

The definition of ETA as a terrorist group is how it's described by most institutions and political parties, including most of the nationalist ones in the Basque Country (such as PNV). I therefore think that it is much more correct to describe ETA as a "terrorist organisation defined by itself as a nationalist group" rather than a "nationalist group defined by 'others' as a terrorist one". Escorial82 08:22, 07 September 2007 (UTC)

I think like you. Adalme 08:19, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Does not matter what individuals think WP:POV lets deal with history of ETA first. BigDunc 08:48, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Of course it is not the key thing in this article, although the description of what is ETA is important, like in other articles it is done of other groups, institutions, etc.

Both the nationalist paramilitary and terrorist terms need to be mentioned, nevertheless it is more fundamental how it is defined by national and international institutions than described by minoritarian political parties (with their correspondent political views, not the neutralism of international institutions). Escorial82 10:08, 07 September 2007 (UTC)

Nationalist is a factual description - whether they are nationalist terrorists or nationalist freedom fighters, I don't think it is really disputed that they are nationalists; that is simply a description of their views. Terrorist and Freedom fighter, on the other hand, are highly-charged descriptions implying particular moral judgements, so Wikipedia's Manual of Style (see WP:TERRORIST) states that we should never use these terms in the "narrative voice", we should only use them as opinions attributed to particular people or groups.

On the other hand, I don't think that this means that mention of the opinion needs to be relegated to half a dozen paragraphs down the page. WP:NPOV says, "All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view, representing views fairly, proportionately and without bias" (my emphasis). If one obscure group described the ETA as terrorist, this would be something that should be left to later in the article. As it is a very widely-held view, it is proportionate to mention it early in the article. This doesn't mean that we should report it as fact; but it does mean that the view should be given prominence. TSP 09:10, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I think the way you've written it is correct, so I would leave it as it is. Escorial82 10:20, 07 September 2007 (UTC)

The version I reverted to establishes they are paramilitary. It then explains what they do, and what they hope to accomplish. It then describes that various governments class them as terrorist because of this. The version it is on now I feel is wrong because it says they are terrorist before it's even explained exactly what they have done to be classed as terrorist. It makes absolutely no sense to do it that way.BigDunc 09:31, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Paramilitary is defined as a subjective term, that is why it should not be used in the definition of what they are. TSP, your description is objective Escorial82 11:10, 07 September 2007 (UTC)

Ill agree to that point but the rest of my argument is valid is it not . BigDunc 10:23, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Have a read of Words to avoid. BigDunc 10:26, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Reverted to Dunc's version. We need to establish why they are classed as terrorist before we say they are, Dunc's version makes far more sense. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 10:56, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

The reason they are classed as terrorist is their killings, not their supposed targets. That's why such murders data and terrorist classification is the first thing to mention, followed by what they explain as reasons (they are not a political party that performs actions) escorial82 08:55, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

(unindent) You can't write ETA is a terrorist organization (or Al Qaeda for the case). I goes against Wikipedia policies. You can write ETA is considered a terrorist organization by... (whichever entities). That's NPOV.

If Al Qaeda is defined as terrorist by Wikipedia (some unconscious editor) that should be corrected. Repeating the error does not make it right. --Sugaar (talk) 07:43, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

See how the BBC handle it, totally neutral. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 15:18, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Revolutionary?

It's not exact Eta is a revolutionary organization. It is a unacceptable moral enjudgement.

I'm refering to it as terrorist including who is who is calling it so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Adalme (talk • contribs) 13:22, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I've removed "revolutionary" - that description only appeared during the modifications made by other editors responding to your repeated re-adding of "terrorist" in this context.

I think the problem that most editors are having is that starting the article with something like "ETA is a terrorist organisation, in the opinion of these groups" gives a biased view - it seems to assume that that opinion is correct; as distinct from the version you changed it from, which was on the lines of "ETA is a nationalist organisation, which is described by these groups as terrorist". By using an opinion as the primary description, even if you then go on to say whose opinion it is, you are still expressing a very strong Point Of View that that description is a correct one.

The phrasing you actually used was "in the discretion of" - I'm not totally sure what you mean by this. I'm guessing English may not be your first language? That's fine, and you're welcome to contribute to Wikipedia; but you will have to expect that your contributions will be edited, for style if nothing else.

Could you let us know what other problems you have with the current form of the article? A lot of the information you are putting into the lead section is already elsewhere in the article. TSP 16:49, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Lead

I have against restored basic article structure to the lead. The "consensual version" referred to in these edits by Adalme does not exist, and never has done. It is complete folly to have the group forming after you've said they have committed murders and are classed as a terrorist group. First you have a brief history of the group and their aims, then you deal with their actions, then you deal with the consequences of those actions. It's basic common sense. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 13:17, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Basic article structure restored. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 14:33, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

What's more important in a group: It's ideals or its actions? Of course both need to be explained, but there are many groups with similar objectives but that do not make murders, that's ETA's main difference, the reasons for ETA's current importance. Look at some other articles and other Wikipedia servers. The definition of Al-Qaeda as a terrorist group is mentioned in the second paragraph, after a small first one, explaining that there are a merger of many organisations. Look at ETA in, for example, the Spanish or French Wikipedia or French. ETA's terrorist classification is mentioned in the first sentence. Globally Al-Qaeda or ETA in Spain and France are much more polemic than in other countries. Yet, such question as whether to mention their terrorism in the beginning or later is not constantly changed or even now a topic in the discussion, and the articles are not classified as non-neutral. escorial82) 08:35, 11 September 2007 (GMT)

Both, but you can't explain their actions until you have explained why they are doing it. The French Wiki is a poor example, the lead is only one sentence to begin with. Ignoring that the lead would need to be bigger to begin with, if this lead was once sentence I would agree it should be in that sentence. But it isn't, so it's a better place. I could see some possible benefit in moving the terrorist classification and adding it to the first paragraph as a compromise, but the details of the deaths can't come before the group is formed. Look at Adolf Hitler, World War II and the Holocaust are mentioned after his rise to power, as you would expect. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 09:23, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Of course the details, and specific actions, don't need to be mentioned in the beginning, but adding then that they are classified as a terrorist organisation, for later mentioning the number of deaths and the details of its classification as such is a good compromise. I suggest something of this structure: "ETA is an armed Basque nationalist organisation. It is recognised internationally as terrorist due to the type of its attacks." Then the details of the ideology and objectives, and finally the number of deaths & prisoners and the institutions that classify ETA as terrorist. Is that better? escorial82 09:56, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

The version you just changed to was not acceptable. There cannot be duplication, only moving and possibly rewording what is there. However I am still waiting to see what other editors think. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 15:12, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

As I said above deal with the history and ideology of ETA in the lead and get on with the rest as ONiH refers to the Hitler article. BigDunc 15:19, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I support the status the article has now, after BD edit the 11/09 @ 17:00, it's very acceptable. It is a good balance describing ETA as armed group, followed, after a small paragraph, that there are classified as terrorist. Then those two topics are detailed. Also, some subjective modifications have been cancelled. escorial82 07:47, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

NO I am in disagreement with you. You are not showing neutral situation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by La voz de su amo (talk • contribs) 17:57, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

La voz de su amo is constantly changing the lead section we had all agreed upon. Apart from changing the infobox into a war one, he changes the location of the paragraph explaining the consideration of ETA as terrorist by many authorities, for example here.La voz, I please ask you to stop making those changes, as the current structure was agreed by many. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Escorial82 (talk • contribs) 07:23, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

You are not correct, These people and myself are not in agreement with you. You are the lone voice, you are not the masters voice. La voz de su amo 19:02, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

On these two (or three) matters, I agree with Escorial. Regarding the paragraph position, whether you believe it is accurate or not, the description of the ETA as terrorist by the UN, USA, EU and others is sufficiently important to be given greater prominence than the 15th paragraph; correct or not, it is the most significant external perspective on the organisation.

Regarding the infobox, Template:Infobox War Faction is a poor fit for this organisation. It is not one of the participants in a war called 'Basque nationalism' - Basque Nationalism is a set of beliefs, not a war. Template:Infobox militant organization (which no longer has the word 'terrorist' in its title) simply has a better set of fields for depicting this group - for example, a box allowing you to specify the group's beliefs, rather than having to identify them in terms of which war they are involved in.

To address another issue: what is the justification for putting the group's dates of activity as "1959–1999, 2007 - present"? The article mentions several acts, both attributed and admitted, performed by the ETA between 1999 and 2007. What is the justification for saying the group was inactive between these dates? TSP 19:19, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

I will agree to your change of infobox, but the terrorist section is too much. Some call ETA terrorist, some call the freedom fighters, there should be balance not just onesided. By all means states that some organisations say they are terrorists but not all so it should not be at the start. It is not the main piece of information about them. La voz de su amo 19:03, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Law on Political Parties

There is a paragraph describing the current law regulating political parties, with the condition required of rejecting terrorist violence; this is why HB was declared illegal. A sentence is frequently changed, by adding a parenthesis in it: ...this is a law barring political parties which may support violence (other than the state's), and don't condemn.... Adding that means assuming that there is current state violence, and that the law defends it / does not demand its rejection. This is clearly subjective, and the reference I added to the full text of the law proves it. I suggest therefore to keep that sentence without the area I marked bold. escorial82 14:04, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree. BigDunc 14:06, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. The Spanish state has often acted violently in its suppression of movements that sought Basque independence. I'm not sure how "current" an example of state violence you're looking for. Allegations of torture in police custody are common, and police "broke up" (using batons) a rally for ETA prisoners' rights in Donostia just last Sunday. Spanish law defends these beatings, and does not demand their rejection from any political party. Far from it. The state's position on violence is "clearly subjective". If members of ETA beat dozens of people with sticks, I would have no problem describing such an action as violent. Would you? Lapsed Pacifist 12:15, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Violent state reactions to those movements, for their ideology, occurred more than 30 years ago, during Franco's dictatorship; not any more. Indeed street violence still occurs, but it is completely different. Please see all the information of the example you give me of last Sunday. What happened there was the anti-disturb unit of the police dismantling a violent concentration that had no authorisation to be done (any manifestation, done by anyone for any reason, without a previous convocation and without announcing to the authorities is illegal and is dismantled by the police; if violence surges the anti-disturbs need to work, but for sorting the violence that exists there, not because of the politics). Many others, asking for the same things, are done without any physical violence. In standard daily situations none of this violence exists. Escorial82 16:24, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

There's plenty more violence from the state than what's seen on the streets. The reason the marches are banned is because their politics is anathema to the state. If the police let them march, what trouble would there be? Are there counter-protests? Lapsed Pacifist 15:17, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

There are many marches of independentist societies, in many regions of Spain, this includes some that haven't been demanded but are not violent, and not dismantled (e.g. a few days ago in Gerona). The political situation in Spain, especially now-a-days, puts a lot of pressure to the national authorities to be very careful with those things. And many researches have been done by justice institutions (including non-Spanish ones) of "unseen" violence in Police Stations, prisons, etc. Escorial82 08:49, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Attacks directed at general populace

Escorial82, can you give me some more information on this edit please? The information needs to be in the article, but I'm unhappy about the wording as "that seem to have been directed" is a POV statement and requires attribution. The reference provided is in Spanish, so it's difficult for me to reword what's there. Thanks. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 14:10, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

I dont speak Spanish either but it seems to be the story of a girl caught up in an attack. I dont feel that she was the target of the attack so maybe a jump here from casualtys of an attack to a policy of attackin the general public. But Spanish speakers please correct me if I am wrong. BigDunc 14:53, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

The attack was aimed at general people, no one in particular in them; it was made in a hypermarket, causing 21 deaths. I attach here the link to a page in English resuming it; I'll put it later in the main article as another reference, as it mentions more directly the event itself and not a particular person in it. MIPT Terrorism Knowledge Base. Escorial82 11:34, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I added the reference to this terrorist attack and the BBC article to the one in Plaza Callao. Those two are only examples, as others have occurred, I personally think it is clear enough in the article. --Escorial82 16:13, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I've reworded it as it's a POV statement not supported by the references. This says "demonstrated a disregard for the safety of innocent civilians" which isn't the same as targeting them, and this says it was a car bomb (with a warning issued) that exploded outside a shop, which is more inkeeping with the economic targets (as is the previous reference). One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 09:59, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Some of the attacks have not killed civilian people by "accident" but were clearly their target. For example, in the one in Hypercor or their last one in the airport of Madrid, there was no political / military / economic "objective" but only the people that were at the wrong place & wrong time. Similar ones in touristic locations. I would therefore suggest to change it back to how it was. Thank you for the other changes you've made. Escorial82 13:10, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

If there's a source that says what you just said, please cite it. The previous version was unattributed POV, and needed to be changed. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 13:15, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

(unindent)

Why I'm not surprised the least to find Escorial82, a new user yet already meddling and edit-warrying in all possible articles of Basque theme from a marked Spanish nationalist perspective, messing around in this disruptive manner.

Escorial: please read WP:DE and WP:NOT. --Sugaar (talk) 00:06, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Semi-protection

I regularly see how clear subjective modifications are made to basic points of the article, today by 88.15.159.145; he removed the mention to some of their mass killings and that there is street violence. It is not the first time that happens, and I shall eventually revert those changes later. For preventing this I suggest to make this article a semi-protected one. What do you think about it? Escorial82 11:45, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

That won't protect the article againts you. I'm not sure if those anonymous edits were or no vandalism (you could post the diffs, so the rest can judge without need of searching) but sadly vandalism is a constant nuisance in Wikipedia. --Sugaar (talk) 00:09, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Corrections

I changed the Northern Basque Country to French Basque Country. I've never heard the expression NBC in Basque, Spanish, French or English, of all the names to describe the region that one is the most artificial one. Also removed the section Basque nationalism context. There is a several pages dedicated to Basque nationalism a link —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kirihito (talk • contribs) 01:00, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

NBC is straight eu:Ipar Euskal Herria. --Error (talk) 03:11, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

'Democratic Alternative' publication

I don't think this suits at the start of the page. It should be further down the page, maybe under "tactics", there could be a small section there. I also don't think the secondary tactical causes is right there too. That should just be a short introduction about ETA. I will edit this soon, because as it is the topic start just looks messy. Codu ^(t)⁄_(c) •  19:04, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

I mived this section down to under "tactics, targets and attacks. The intrdocution should only be introducing, and giving a basic knowledge on ETA. this introduction was too long. If a reader wants more information then he or she can scroll down and find it. Codu ^(t)⁄_(c) •  12:01, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

I think it's good how you've put it. Indeed the two key topics are left in the introduction and there are explained in detail after. I'm gonna see (and maybe suggest) if it would fit somewhere else than in "tactics". Escorial82 12:26, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Eugene Kent Brown

Kent vs Kenneth. Kent is confirmed by ABC, which seems more than reliable to me. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 17:55, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

ETA against the black foots"?

I read in the introduction of the article:

"The organization has adopted from time to time other secondary tactical causes such as fighting against: Alleged heroin traffickers and 'black foot' punk migrants". It is not real that ETA attacks migrants (black foot? that is an unknown expression in the Basque Country), I think that the author wanted to insinuate that ETA has got a racist ideology, when many ETA members are son of migrants come to the Basque Country. And what means "a fix for a tip"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.35.245.46 (talk) 15:21, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Piesnegros was a Basque slang term in the 1980s for punk-listening vagrants. I think that perroflauta has a similar meaning now. I don't remember though ETA targetting punks, though.

A fix for a tip is "gazte bat drogatik txanda" in the words of Kortatu. English drug slang makes the point quickly for native English speakers, but you don't learn that in ESO.

--Error (talk) 02:38, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

That claim (that is not anymore in the entry anyhow) surprised me too. AFAIK ETA has never targetted immigrants of any sort for the sake of being that, nor ever targetted vagabonds as those pies negros. Furthermore, I would imagine that if such term was ever used by ETA or surroundings it would rather refer to French-Algerian (pied-noir) colonists. But, as ETA has not typically operated in the North, such activity would more likely be something of Iparretarrak or, most probably, something wrongly copied from an article on Corsican nationalist armed groups. --Sugaar (talk) 08:01, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Lenght

The article is way too long as it is now, it quite exceeds wikipedia's guidelines in the matter. Ways to reduce its lenght should be implemented here (for example, I'm thinking the History section could well be compressed). Still, at this point, one of the most obvious and, in my opinion, uncontroversial, would be moving all the "attacks" section to the relative "list of ETA attacks", leaving in this section just the link to the more pertinent "list of ETA attacks". Is this ok? Mountolive | Talk 12:13, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

some weeks have passed without comment, I assume you are ok with this move. Done. Mountolive | Talk 14:40, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree with what you've done, nevertheless I think it is necessary to have at least a brief mention to their main killings (eg Carrero Blanco (1973), Hipercor Barcelona (1987), Guardia Civil house (1987), Miguel Angel Blanco (1997)). What do you think of writing about those 4 as their biggest / more known killings? Escorial82 (talk) 15:02, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm ok with it but only...if YOU do it! ;) I hope you understand I just spent a while carefully copy pasting and accomodating info in the List of ETA attacks and I am not ready to copy paste back. Mountolive | Talk 15:05, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I'll do it indeed, probably in the coming weekend (indeed it takes time, and work puts limitations...) Escorial82 (talk) 15:47, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Since those events are already well past and the situation is quite other these days, looks like it is time to create a main article for the "most recent ceasefire section", moving the bulk of the info there and leaving just a sketch of it in the main article. This will help in the goal of reducing the article's length and adjuste it to the guidelines in this regard.

I will proceed with it sometime soon unless someone has concerns about this. Mountolive _{all over Battersea, some hope and some dispair} 17:33, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Done Mountolive _{all over Battersea, some hope and some dispair} 19:40, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Do you think we should do the same with the bulk of the "History" section? I kinda think so, but I would like to hear you guys. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mountolive (talk • contribs) 19:59, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Hello! is it necessary to cry "terrorist" to get the attention of ya folks? If so, let it be ;)

Again, I would like to ask how do you see this move of creating an own article for the history section. As it is now is making this article too long, besides, since there are few images in this section (if any, I forgot) this section looks like a rolling paper which you'd better want to spare.

I did so already with another compressing, but this time I dont have the time to make an abstract of this section. Anyone would be up to the challenge if you supported this cut-paste to a more relevant article? Mountolive _{all over Battersea, some hope and some dispair} 17:48, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

It might be an idea to re-organise the article first. Bear in mind that the lead is supposed to be a summary of the article, capable of standing alone. Therefore, what comes after the lead should in theory be the actual start of the article. At the moment, the article starts "ETA is organized in different talde ("groups"), whose objective is to conduct armed operations in a specific geographic zone;" which doesn't make much sense. If you're going to fork something off, I'd try and fork the tactics and targets, while leaving a few paragraphs behind for the sake of context. I wouldn't call it ETA's tactics and targets obviously, I was thinking about a fork similar to Provisional IRA campaign 1969–1997? One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 18:27, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Uff, while not being a bad idea in itself, I'm afraid of re-organising. The article has been calmed lately, but this is brittle and I am afraid that, in the process of moving lamps and furniture somewhere else, we may well end up breaking and/or missing something. I thought that 'history' was the most safe piece to cut, but I guess I was wrong. Mountolive _{all over Battersea, some hope and some dispair} 19:29, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Definition

"ETA is proscribed as a terrorist organisation by both the Spanish and French[3] authorities as well as the European Union as a whole,[4] the United States, and the United Nations." I think, this means that is a terrorist organisation, but we don't find it until the third paragraph!!! These people kill innoccent people, that must be the firt and most important thing, not the information of the third paragraph.--Codorado 13:05, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

In a discussion held in the past on that topic it was agreed to say that on the second paragraph after a small one-sentence first one.. I'll put it back as it was. Escorial82 13:51, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

No, it wasn't, see the discussion above. How the group is classed comes after the group is formed, it's basic article structure. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 14:13, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

The discussion above seemed a bit inconclusive to me. I don't feel that strongly about second versus third paragraph (as long as it's not moved back to fifteenth), but on the whole I do feel that the second is a more appropriate place for it. This isn't article structure, it's lead structure, which is a bit different; WP:LEAD says 'The emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic according to reliable, published sources.' One way to give prominence is to mention something earlier in the lead. I don't think that leads need to follow a chronological or narrative flow as articles generally should (though obviously they shouldn't be a complete jumble); they should emphasise the most important facts.

I think that the fact that the ETA is considered by the most major international bodies to be a terrorist group is substantially more important than the fact that it is Marxist-Leninist in ideology, or even that it was founded in 1959. If people come to the article, they're far more likely to be thinking, "the ETA - is that the terrorist group?" than "the ETA - is that the Marxist-Leninist group founded in 1959?" I don't think that mentioning the group's foundation intrinsically needs to come before mentioning its attributed terrorist status. The group's history (what brought it to this point) and its perception (how it is generally perceived at this point) are both facts about the group; in some cases one will be more important; in some cases, the other. TSP 16:18, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

I do support moving up to the second paragraph. In my opinion, the so called classification is actually essential to the group's very nature and so should go before its succint history (was formed in 1959 and evolved...) Mountolive | Oh My God, Whatever, Etc. 19:55, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

For me, terrorist is a definition of ETA, not a way to classed it. It must be at first place.--Codorado 23:25, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

It's a wholly conclusive discussion, and facts should come before POV. Escorial82 agreed that this version was "very acceptable" and TSP said the position of the third paragraph was "more balanced" in this edit. It's only because the lead has been stripped of all sorts of information that the third paragraph is now last, when everyone previously agreed the third paragraph was fine. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 00:11, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I think ONIH is right, we have to be impartial and not take sides even when we want to, this is the sign of a good wikipedia editor. Thanks, SqueakBox 00:35, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't think this is a matter of taking sides. The dominant sourced opinion we have on the ETA is that it is a terrorist organisation; that's why we have four or five excellent sources noting bodies that hold the opinion that it is a terrorist organisation, as against one rather bad source describing things like its Marxist-Leninist ideology. I just think that, when an opinion is that important and widely held, the fact of the opinion can be more important than facts about its history or ideology which have little impact on its current existence. I have always been the first to say that the article should not describe the ETA as terrorist in its own opinion; but, to balance this, an opinion so widely held should be mentioned prominently as assigned to the notable bodies who have asserted it.

Regarding 'more balanced'; yes, it was more balanced, and it was much more important at that point to establish that the information shouldn't be at the 15th paragraph than to argue about whether it should be at second or third; that's also why I haven't argued about it being left in that state for a while. Since the matter has been raised, though, I would rather it was at second than third. TSP 01:22, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

The second paragraph could do with expanding so it's more than just the political outlook. For example the previous version under discussion had a sentence stating "ETA has killed hundreds of people, including civilians and children, and kidnapped dozens in its actions against the Spanish state". While I'm not in favour of that specific sentence going back, common sense says we need to explain what they have done in order to be classed as a terrorist organisation. Your argument above is slghtly contradictory. That ETA is an armed group formed in 1959 is a far more widely held opinion (for want of a better word) than its classiciation. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 01:30, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm not talking about truth; things can be undisputedly true without being particularly relevant. That the ETA are an armed basque nationalist group is covered in the first sentence, as it should be; this is the basic description of the group. That they were formed in 1959 is doubtless true; but if you went up to 1,000 people in the street and said "What are the most important things to note about the ETA?" I doubt that any would say "they were formed in 1959" or "they have a Marxist-Leninist ideology". After "Basque nationalist" and probably before "armed", you'd get "(attributed) terrorist". This absolutely doesn't mean we should state "terrorist" as fact, as it is a controversial and disputed view; however, it is such a widely-held view, and well-sourced, view that it should be given prominence. TSP 01:58, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I can find you dozens of sources that they an armed group formed in 1959, which is a more widely held view than their classification. Their classification is given prominence, it's currently in the third paragraph which was a prominent place before the lead was pruned. It makes no sense to talk about their classification before explaining why they are classified. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 02:18, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Roughly 10% of Basque people in Spain appear certainly to support Herri Batasuna and that makes it a significant view. Our neutrality policy thus demands we take a balanced view on this one and express both sides of the argument, there is no problem having good refs reflecting the ETA standpoint. Thanks, SqueakBox 01:32, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Ah, I sense that we're having two slightly different debates here. There does indeed need to be more mention of the views of supporters of the group; nevertheless, WP:NPOV is clear that the majority view should be presented as the majority view and given most prominence. TSP 01:58, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Repeating my comparison from above, the lead of Adolf Hitler doesn't mention World War II and The Holocaust until the third and fourth paragraphs respectively. If the lead is supposed to be an overview of the article, it's common sense to maintain some sort of coherent order in it. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 01:37, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

True; though that article has a rather long lead. People are a bit different; a person's life has a clear start, end and chronology. The same doesn't necessarily go for groups; compare Nazi Party, which gets pretty speedily to the party's gain of almost total power in Germany, leaving ideology for later and barely mentioning its early history at all. If the ETA was just a Marxist-Leninist group that was founded in 1959, it would be barely worthy of inclusion in Wikipedia. That it is a group that has had several hundred attacks attributed to it, and is considered by most international bodies as a terrorist group, is what makes it notable from the perspective of most people, and of most of our sources. TSP 01:58, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

That's sort of the point I'm making, when I said the attacks attributed to it need to be included, before the classification. We don't need to include every aspect of ETA's history in the lead, just the important parts of it. The bombings and shootings are what caused the classification, so it's those that make the group notable. A group isn't simply notable because they have a classification, it's what they've done in order to be classified that's important. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 02:15, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I suggest something of this structure. I just made some simple copy/paste so maybe the English can be slightly improved. It says that ETA became (so it was not in its creation) and that its objective is Basque independence, before saying that they are prescribed as terrorists. On the third paragraph the initial cultural origins and Marxist ideology are stated. I think that like this is a better structure. Escorial82 08:38, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Euskadi Ta Askatasuna or ETA (Basque for "Basque Homeland and Freedom"; IPA: [ˈɛːta]) is an armed Basque nationalist organisation.

ETA was founded in 1959 and became an armed group using violence to demand Basque independence. ETA is proscribed as a terrorist organisation by both the Spanish and French authorities as well as the European Union as a whole, the United States, and the United Nations.

ETA was initially a group advocating traditional Basque cultural ways and its ideology is Marxist-Leninist.

It doesn't explain what they have done to be classed as a terrorist organisation, which is what I've said at length above. You're splitting up the history in an incredibly clumsy manner to give prominence in a non-neutral manner. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 08:42, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

It does say it, "armed group using violence", which is why they are considered terrorist according to the criteria of the institutions and countries mentioned. It's only afterwards that the terrorist classification is said. Escorial82 09:07, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

This article should outine facts first before opinion. Escorial82 you show POV and I disagree with your aspect.--La voz de su amo (talk) 17:25, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Could you please tell me where consequences (that you describe as POV) are said before facts? As I said before, the reasons for ETA to be proscribed as terrorist is said in the sentence previous to the one saying its terrorist classification; and ETA being considered as terrorist is not a personal POV but a fact from many countries and institutions (with the suitable sources mentioned) Escorial82 (talk) 22:39, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Almost one week ago I made a suggestion on a text that could be made stating first reasons and facts for keeping that important feature in the 2nd paragraph without it being the first thing. Apart from a couple of comments that were properly explained, is there any other suggestion for a small change? Otherwise I'll put it there at some point in the afternoon / evening. Lets hope this closes the long discussion. Escorial82 (talk) 09:06, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. Two issues:

It is not impartial to put all that in the entry. It belongs to a second or third explanatory paragraph actually.

It is not clear that the current ideology of ETA is Marxist-Leninist. We have discussed that in the past and, what is clear is that its demands are nowadays of nationalist character and nothing more: self-determination, territoriality and the issue of prisioners. I am positive that many people in ETA or its ideological neighbourhood are not Marxist at all. Nevertheless it's true that in the past KAS (not ETA, but a political platform, whose proposals were endorsed by ETA(m)) demanded at times "independence and socialism". But nowadays the KAS platform is obsolete for all actors and what is the substantial demand of ETA is the Democatic Alternative. --Sugaar (talk) 01:37, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Additionally, your proposal is not really different from the current entry, just tries to give more emphasis to some parts in what seems an ideological POV effort and change the mention of Marism-Leninism, that is much more correct as it stands now. --Sugaar (talk) 01:40, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Obviously it seems that an agreement hasn't been fully reached. I had modified the article since no comments had been made on my proposal for several days. That's why I've removed all changes made yesterday (leaving the terrorist mention in the third paragraph, neither before or after). I'll try to write more in here later, but no changes should be made on the main articles soon.Escorial82 (talk) 08:29, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

The body count should be in the lead. That´s obvious: The lead should be about what is ETA and what ETA does, and the most significat thig E TA does is killing people. You did the right thing removing the body count because there was no source, though. Here´s the MOST OFFICIAL source for that grim number [1] Randroide (talk) 09:53, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

You are a liar. Do ETA exist for the fun to kill people? No! Would ETA exist if Basques were free? No! This is the reason for it living. You are braindead.--La voz de su amo (talk) 10:40, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Please write something rational (and sourced, if possible) and I shall debate with you. Have a good day. Randroide (talk) 23:26, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I have explained myself as clear as I can Mr. POV. Do ETA exist for the fun to kill people? No! Would ETA exist if Basques were free? No! This is the reason for it living not for to be fun time terrorists - this is your label to degrade - that is not NPOV.--La voz de su amo (talk) 12:55, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Please note that I did not use the word "fun".Thank you. Randroide (talk) 09:14, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Aren't the basques free? This is crazy!! They decided in 1978 to be part of Spain in a democratic referendum!!! Fifth paragraph to find that they terrorist!! This is worse than ever!--Codorado (talk) 13:42, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

With all due respect: Personal opinions about the basques being free or not are useless here. I suggest to stick to what sources say and to forget about our personal opinions.Randroide (talk) 09:16, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

(undent) I've rearranged the lead to what I think is both a reasonable logical flow, and gives reasonably appropriate priority to the various matters covered, as discussed in various threads on this page.

It now covers, in this order:

• (Para 1) The name of the organisation, and its aims in brief.
• (Para 1) A brief history of the organisation
• (Para 2) The crimes attributed to the organisation
• (Para 2) The organisation's proscription as a terrorist group by various national and international organisations
• (Para 3) The organisation's aims in more depth, its motto, its logo, and its Marxist-Leninist ideology

Any objections to this version? Is anything now given too much priority? Too little? TSP (talk) 15:06, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree on this. It does mention more clearly their key objective (Basque independence) and number of murders for them to be considered as terrorists. Maybe there needs to be a separate discussion on the mention of a Marxist-Leninist ideology, but the location in such paragraph is suitable. Escorial82 (talk) 15:17, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Agree, too: sounds like a timely order and flows well. • Mountolive ^{J'espère que tu t'es lavé les mains avant de me toucher} 20:04, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Agree. The lead should include a bried description of what ETA is (armed organization, est. 1959...), what ETA does (murder, extortion, some politics), what ETA says about itself (marxist-leninist -at least in the past-, basque independentist) and what (significant) others say about ETA (terrorist organization). Brief, substantial and NPOV. Randroide (talk) 09:14, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

The entry paragraph

I am starting a new section because the pevious one is too long. I'm dividing it in subsections to make discussion more clear:

Ideology and goals

ETA is not clearly "marxist-leninist", that's the typical nonsense that Spanish police launch in the media. It has a reason: it was historically so at some time in the past (in the midst of the Cold War), at least Marxist (the "Leninist" tag is highly questionable in any case).

The only modern document where ETA states its ideology/goals is the Democratic Alternative and it clearly says that their goal is self-determination for the Basque Country, territoriality, a comprehensive peace and amnesty for Basque "political" prisoners (ETA members or not).

There's nothing that is not produced by Spanish or PNV media that uses the "marxist-leninist" attribution, what is obviously a act of political propaganda. Even in its political enviroment, HASI, the self-declared Marxist party in the KAS bloc and in former coalition Herri Batasuna does not exist anymore. Herri Batasuna also included many independents (most of the coalition members surely) and it was revamped as Batasuna (a political party that does not declare itself "marxist" AFAIK). Times change and the Basque Nationalist Left does too.

According to the Juaristi ref I just added, ETA VI was Marxist-Leninist, ETA V not. I also read somewhere that there was ETA berri that was much more Communist than nationalist. This has at least an historical value. --Error (talk) 02:25, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Terrorist organization and other POV stuff

Surely some organizations (Spain and allies) consider ETA "terrorist", whatever that means. But there's many people in the Basque Country and elsewhere that consider them patriots, exactly a it happened with the IRA in Ireland or the PKK in Kurdistan. They definitively do not target civilians indiscrimately, as may do for instance Al Qaeda - and that's a difference that must be mentioned.

That is not true, or a lie if you preffer. 19/06/87 Hipercor bombcar for example. The only difference with Al-Qaeda are that there are no suicides and the number of victims (21 civilians). You have the list of victims here http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Asesinatos_de_ETA_entre_1975_y_2007#A.C3.B1o_1986. I am sorry but they are terrorist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.81.200.14 (talk) 16:16, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

The use of the term "crimes" is also POV. Unoubtedly that's how the Spanish (and allies's) judiciary defines their actions but not how ETA memebers or their many supporters see it: they see them as military actions (guerrilla). This is important if we don't want to fall in the sin of POV-ness. We must consider both POVs.

For example, Spain (the Spanish media and politicians) describe the killing of two miltary policemen in Gascony as an "assault" ("atentado"), while for ETA it was an "armed confrontation"[2].

Entry content

The entry should be structured as follows:

1. Brief neutral description of ETA as armed group that struggles for the self-determination of the southern Basque Country. Example:

Euskadi Ta Askatasuna or ETA (Basque for "Basque Homeland and Freedom"; IPA pronunciation: [ˈɛːta]), is an armed Basque nationalist separatist organization. Founded in 1959, under Franco's dictatorship, it evolved rapidly from a group advocating traditional cultural ways to an armed group demanding Basque independence through armed struggle.

I am not so sure it was a "cultural" group at its origins. A citation is needed there or a correction. --Sugaar (talk) 22:07, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

2. Goals. Example:

All formulations of ETA's goals have centered on sovereignty and self-determination for the Basque Country.

Some sources for the "Democratic Alternative" of ETA:

• [3] (personal site)
• [4] (Elkarri peace organization, PDF)

We must have clear that while the KAS Alternative (that had several formulations) is historical (but proposed by KAS, a political bloc, not ETA), ETA now proposes the Democratic Alternative, described as "actualization of the KAS Alternative"). --Sugaar (talk) 22:07, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

3. "Terrorist organization".

Here there can go the allegations by Spain et al of ETA being a "terrorist organization" but it should be mentioned that ETA typically doesn't target civilians and gives advance notice in the cases where civilians could be injured by their attacks (there may be some exceptions though - I'm thinking in a couple of bombs in SE Spain some years ago, directed against tourists).

That's what I think. I feel that since I took a vacation from Wikipedia a year ago or so, this article has fallen in a bottomless pit of POV-ness and needs strong corrections. --Sugaar (talk) 22:07, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Answers to Sugaar

Hi, Sugaar.

• Regarding your unsourced statements: I suggest you to talk only about sourced statements. IMHO is the best policy in such a contentious issue as ETA.

• Regarding your sourced statements

• • Personal sites are NOT appropiate sources. Please read WP: Verifiability#Self-published_sources_.28online_and_paper.29.
  • OTOH this source [[5]] is excellent. It should be integrated into the main article, erasing that geocities text (it is self published). Good job.

• You wrote it should be mentioned that ETA typically doesn't target civilians. I count 341 dead civilian here [6].

Randroide (talk) 22:11, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

(1) I presume I'm discussing with somewhat knowledgeable people here (otherwise, what are you doing here?). We can look for sources later, as we advance on the discussion.

(2) Thanks, not difficult: just used Google.

(3) It depends on what you consider civilian: are politicians civilians? judges? Most of the rest are collateral victims (i.e. not intended). What I mean and should be clear is that, at least normally, ETA doesn't target the civilian population, as for instance Al Qaeda does, but specific targets such as military, police, politicians, prision officers and judges. They also have targetted economic objectives such as major companies and banks, tourist areas, airports, railroads and individual businessmen (the latter mostly to obtain the so-called "revolutonary tax").

Most of the civilian victims are collateral damage of other type of attacks, like families of guardia civiles living in the military installations, people who were not evaquated after a bomb threat (specially the case of Hypercor), pass-byers affected by attacks on other targets. The only case I can recall when they intentionally targetted civilians was a couple of bombs two years ago in Mediterranean Spain, that did target foreign turists directly. Naturally, this was controversial, as it breached the historical ethics of the organization. Equally the decission to target indiscriminately all unionist politicians, big or small, now abandoned, was very controversial - and arguably counter-productive for ETA itself. --Sugaar (talk) 05:25, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

The ATTACKS ON CIVILIANS debate

Sugaar wrote: It depends on what you consider civilian: are politicians civilians? judges?

Randroide´s answer:

It´s not about how you or me could "consider" the issue, Sugaar. Instead, the issue it´s the objective meaning of the words. Let´s see:

civilian...1. A person following the pursuits of civil life, especially one who is not an active member of the military or police.[7]

...therefore politicians, journalists, judges, clerks and all "non military non police" individuals are civilians.

...therefore ETA does CERTAINLY target the civilian population. It´s not a question of thinking this or that, is a question of the meaning of the words. Randroide (talk) 23:45, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, obviously George Bush is a "civilian" then.

I can't agree, naturally, those who are in charge or otherwise support actively the military are not civilians: they are military personnel. Civilian is the baker of the corner, who is not directly involved in the conflict, but not the Minister of Interior (police) or the Judge that gives orders to the police or the guard of a prision where members of an armed group are being kept in brutal conditions. More arguable could be wether local politicians (municipal councilors) are or not civilians but judges and prision guards and ministers of police are not civilians (i.e. neutral), they are an important part of one of the armed organizations clashing.

Attacking civilians is that: targetting the population in general, like in Hiroshima, Dresden, Gernika... That's what ETA doesn't do but rather tries to avoid. And that's importatnt to state clearly, whatever the nomenclature (use "general population" instead of "civilians" if you like). --Sugaar (talk) 18:07, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Sugaar wrote: Well, obviously George Bush is a "civilian" then.

Of course he is NOT a civilian. The President of the United States is ALSO the Commander in Chief of the North American Armed forces

Please take a look at [[8]].

By the same token, the Spanish president and the (so called by their vassals, not by me) Spanish King, are NOT civilians, because theirs is the command of the Spanish Armed Forces.

Sugaar wrote: I can't agree, naturally, those who are in charge or otherwise support actively the military are not civilians

You have a right to disagree, of course. But I must point to you the fact that you are disagreeing with the dictionary, and the dictionary is cristal clear about the issue: Judges, Entrepeneurs, Municipal councilors, College professors, Journalists (even "Brunete mediática" ones) ARE CIVILIANS, and they have been routinely killed by ETA.

NPOV means we take no sides, i.e., we talk with the definitions provided by the dictionary. Using definitions as used by ETA would be as POV as saying that ETA is a "terrorist" group.

OTOH, it would be an excellent idea to add that ETA regards journalists, (no extortion paying) entrepeneurs, judges and politicians as "non civilians". If we can source that, that would be the voice of ETA, and it would be a legitimate and informative addition. The wording should be something like "ETA regards judges, judiciary and military clerks, non sympathetic journalists and non extortion paying entrepeneurs as non civilians and, thus, legitimate targets".

Sugaar wrote: "those who are in charge or otherwise support actively the military are not civilians: they are military personnel".

Could you please quote an English dictionary with that definition?. AFAIK there´s none, but I could be wrong.

Randroide (talk) 18:57, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Let's see: the chaffeur of Osama bin Laden is arrested at Guantanamo on grounds of being an "enemy combatant". There are zillion cases like that. You are in denial.

Anyhow I suggested alternative terms like "general population", "neutral people", etc. --Sugaar (talk) 07:52, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Also: the same that Bush is not a civilian, judges and ministers (or equivalent at lower administrative levels) are in charge of the police as well and therefore are not civilians.

Anyhow, this is an issue that deals with the history of ETA that has been deleted on grounds of simplicity (wrongly in my opinion). ETA(m) was strictly targetting military and police, wile ETA(pm) was more variegated in its targets. This distinction, essential until the 90s has been supressed. In the late 80s and early 90s the irreductibles of ETA(pm) joined ETA(m), after the majority of ETA(pm) accepted a peace deal in Spanish terms (reinserción). After some police successes over the Artapalo cuppola, the former poli-milis took over and the new ETA started widening its targets.

Regarding scertain "journalists", the viewpoint of ETA is that they are paid propaganda agents (spies, hence not "civilians"). ETA has not targetted journalists in general but some spcific ones that have very high connections.

Other categories: (1) Judges are in charge of police and the prision system, hence they are like Bush. (2) Businessmen are targetted for the "revolutionary tax" exclussively - they are not objective normally of personal attacks but rather kidnappings or attaks on their properties, when they don't pay. (3) Municipal councilors are definitively a controversial issue but they are targetted anyhow for being members of the Spanish nationalist parties that rule Spain and hence the Southern Basque Country against the will of its people. In any case, ETA has declaed it will nt attack them anymore. It's an exceptional epysode. (4) No college professors have been targetted as such. The only one I can think of is a former important judge and he was obviously targetted as such.

So the only controversial case is that of municipal councilors. --Sugaar (talk) 08:18, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

What about excouncil members, are those also non civilians like the journalists? It is very clear that ETA targets people and kills them exclusively because their political ideas are to ETA's dislike. --Neveryou —Preceding comment was added at 19:20, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Could you please provide any source for your statements, Sugaar?. Thank you. Randroide (talk) 22:33, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

One small correction to Randroide´s previous comment: a police officer is a civilian as well, and in Spain (and most of Western Europe) high political figures are also civil (including the Prime Minister and all Ministers, or, for example in France, the President of the Republic). In Spain and Italy (not sure about the UK), a priest is not a civilian. The King or the Prince are not civilians. The differentiation between those two categories is a concept that is defined and applied by individual countries. And, for example, in Spain, a militar cannot have a political role (its illegal for them to be in a political party).

In any case, judges or politicians are civilians. Members (agents) of the Guardia Civil are militars, but those of the Policía Nacional are civilians.

Maybe ETA considers those figures as some journalists not civilians but occupants of the Basque Country. Yet, in international terms they are civilians, so I guess that how it should be mentioned is that ETA targets some type of civilians and it doesn´t consider them as such.

Escorial82 (talk) 23:09, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Hi, Escorial82. On the one hand you are right about the meaning of "civilian" in Spain (tough Guardia Civil members are NOT civilians, but a militarized police force), on the other hand, this is the Wikipedia in English, therefore we should use definitions in English of the word "civilian". I must say to you that ALL the english dictionaries I have looked at (quite a bunch) define police forces as NON civilians. If you both of you (Sugaar and Escorial82) have different references, please quote. Thank you. Randroide (talk) 11:29, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, I'm not going to get deeper into this discussion because, while I have proposed alternative phrases like the general population, Randroide is clearly interested in insisting in the term civilians.

The case is clear anyhow: with some exceptions, ETA has specific targets that are considered generally part of "the enemy", and that category does not include the general population. ETA has never placed a bomb in Madrid with intention to cause a major massacre of civilians (not involved in the conflict), just for the sake of them being Spanish, like Al Qaeda/Salafists did. Some neutrals have been collateral casualties and some others have been occasionally targeted (a few tourists in Valencia Country in two related attacks, civilian workers of the Army in another case).

But it is clear that by avoiding this issue of ETA's targets we are biasing the article. Is it too long? Move 18/98 to Spanish Inquisition (sarcasm intended - but in any case it deserves a separate article) and solved.

Btw. I don't think that police forces are considered strictly civilians under war laws: they are armed and wear uniform, no matter if they have the right to join a union or not. Probably some of you know about this better than I do. --Sugaar (talk) 13:01, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

I still can not see your sources, Sugaar.

We have NO definition for "General population", so it would be an endless and pointless noghtmare to discuss about judges and low tier politicians belonging to that category or not. Not a wise choice, really.

And no, policemen (and policewomen) are NOT civilians under the definition I linked anove. Randroide (talk) 15:05, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Sources for what? I guess I can find them if you ask specific, precise questions.

What it's important is to re-create the sections for the goals and targets of ETA, as well as to do a more detailed history of the organizations (several ETAs have existed in the past). Instead issues like 18/98 should be moved to their own articles and, if anything, only get a mention here, as they deal more with the Spanish judicial peculiarities and irregularities than with ETA itself.

Good that we agree that police are not civilians. Now guess we can agree that their bosses (judges) and minions (prision guards, confidents) are not civilians either, ok?

General population is proposed as a compromise term. You can't be maximalist if you want to reach a consensus, can you? Of course it might be that you don't want to reach any consensus but just impose your POV, what is disruptive editing, what is not precisely what Wikipedia nor this article need at all. --Sugaar (talk) 11:31, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Sugaar wrote: "Sources for what?"

For your statements at this talk page, Sugaar. You write lenghty texts with not a single source. Sorry but user´s mere opinions are pointless here. Only sources count.

Sugaar wrote: Now guess we can agree that their bosses (judges) and minions (prision guards, confidents) are not civilians either, ok?

Our "agreement" would be totally irrelevant. Only sourced definitions count. And sourced definitions definitely stablish that Judges, clerks, politicians and journalists are indeed civilians. Please see these sources: [9][10][11][12].

Sugaar wrote: General population is proposed as a compromise term. You can't be maximalist if you want to reach a consensus, can you?

Can you find a sourced definition of "general population"?. Please, let me know.

Thank you. Randroide (talk) 12:29, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Is there a reliable source for a claim that ETA target civilians? Is there a reliable source for ETA claiming they don't? Everything else is irrelevant... One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 10:16, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

My purpose here is NOT to add the line "ETA attacks civilians", sir, BUT to avoid the addition of the extremely misleading line "ETA does NOT attack civilians". An editor (Sugaar) suggested the addition of that line, and that was the spark that initiated this protracted discussion. Randroide (talk) 10:18, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Assuming there is a statement from ETA saying "we don't attack civilians", I would support its addition as a rebuttal after the details of any attacks that have injured or killed civilians. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 10:49, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you, One Night In Hackney. Of course that a proper source is required, and the "ETA said..." format should be used. Randroide (talk) 23:45, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Fugitives and refugees

Among its members, ETA distinguishes between legales/legalak ("legal ones"), those members who do not have police records; liberados ("liberated"), exiled to France and on ETA's payroll ; prisoners, serving time scattered across Spain and France; quemados ("burned out"), freed after having been imprisoned; and deportees, expelled by the French government to remote countries where they live free.

ETA also talks about iheslariak ("fugitives") and errefuxiatuak ("refugees"). Are the same people? Are they already included in this member classification? --Error (talk) 00:11, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

"Basque political refugees" can refer to ETA members, active or inactive, or to other people that for whichever reason believes that would be pesecuted in Spain. Equally "Basque political prisioners" can refer to imprisioned ETA members or to any other people jailed on political or armed struggle grounds, including anarchists or GRAPO members of Basque origin, youths jailed for kale borroka (street war), people jailed for their ideology or political stand, like those involved in the infamous 18/98 trial, etc. This of course refers to the language of the Basque Nationalist Left. Amnesty International would surely use a much more restrictive language, for instance, while Spain would always reject that there are such things as "political prisioners" or "political refugees" in this context. But they also deny that torture and arbitrary detention happens, no matter what AI dennounces year after year. --Sugaar (talk) 08:25, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

18/98

18/98 has already been sentenced. Can somebody summarize it? --Error (talk) 02:40, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Ideology

I have removed the addition of National Socialism made in these edits pending discussion. Firstly, AFAIK, the ideology section is for what the organisation describe themselves as, or possibly a consensus of scholarly opinion. Secondly "many analysts" have not made the assumption at all, there is one person's opinion being cited. This may belong in the article, but not in the manner it's being presented and probably not in the lead. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 09:46, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

agree Mountolive _{all over Battersea, some hope and some dispair} 17:48, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Carrasco

There is as yet no proof that ETA killed him, only speculation and the opinion of a government minister. See here for example, even the BBC don't state who did it. Therefore it cannot be stated as fact, and opinions cannot be drawn from it. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 19:43, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

What is the necessary "proof"? The police both on a national level and in Euskadi have attributed the attack to ETA. ANV, ETA's political arm, has not condemned the attack. The Lehendakari, the prime minister of Spain, and other authorities have acussed ETA. I guess for some people only after ETA talks we can modify this page Younever 8:20,10 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, only after ETA talks about the issue we can modify the page. Currently the text is factually A-OK:

• On March 7, 2008 ETA is blamed for killing Isaías Carrasco

Please be patient. ETA will probably vindicate the killing in the next weeks. After all this is an encyclopedia, not the news.Randroide (talk) 16:23, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. I seem to remember ETA were blamed for other things that they weren't responsible for... One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 16:35, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Yet again, the opinion of the Spanish government was being presented as fact. To the best of my knowledge ETA have not claimed responsiblity for the death of Carrasco, so the information cannot be presented in that way. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 21:03, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi ONIH. Well, in this case of the victims, we disagree. You may agree with me that presenting the killing of Isaías Carrasco as "the opinion of the Spanish government" is a quite minoritary view, since everyone else (all the media and all the political parties) have the same stances. Even the party which is "understanding" with ETA, to put it mildly, implicitly agrees with this view, since it has refused to condemn this killing, like they do with the other politically motivated.

Besides, on the face of this unanimous response, ETA has not denied their responsability, like they did, for example, with the Madrid bombings.

Anyway, all it takes is to wait a few days more to get this vindicated. They typically vindicate their "actions" between one and three months after they are committed. Mountolive _{group using a loop of another pop group} 21:25, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't consider it a minority view, it's in the lead after all. And look at who updated the total from 821 to 822 in the first place - me! However I was concerned in doing so that I was presenting opinion as fact. Have a look at the NYT article on it, it's quite telling. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 21:27, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Tagged the current version as dubious - what ETA's enemies say is being presented as fact. Given Carrasco has been added to the list on that site, there's no guarantee the other 821 are as accurate therefore it should be attributed not presented as fact. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 21:49, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Please stop presenting opinion re Carrasco as fact. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 22:37, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

It is, to say the least, a dubious fact. By the way, I would be happy to keep the 821 figure and December 07 until this one killing is vindicated. Mountolive _{group using a loop of another pop group} 23:04, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, you can't do either per WP:NPOV. What ETA's enemies claim isn't being presented as fact, it's that simple. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 23:08, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Reuters [13], Pravda [14] and the Turkish Press [15] (none of which are explicitly linked to the Spanish government) all support the 821 figure. Other independent sources [16] [17] state, quite correctly, that ETA admits responsibility for attacks that it commits. Multiple other sources state that ETA has killed "more than 800 people since 1968" so there's nothing remotely dubious about the 821 figure. Unless a reliable source can be found calling into question the figure the dubious tag should be removed and 821 given in the article. Valenciano (talk) 22:56, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

You don't seem to understand the dispute. The 821 figure has been updated to 822 based on the opinion of the Spanish government (which has been called into question in regard to this), which calls into question the reliability of the exact figure. Nobody is suggesting ETA haven't killed 800+ people, it's a case of how reliable ETA's enemies are and whether their opinion should be stated as fact. I tried removing the tag, and it was added back! One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 22:59, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I understand completely about the Carrasco one and the 821 figure doesn't include that, but the sources above aren't connected to the Spanish government and are hardly reknowned for being 'ETA enemies'. There is no source that I've seen that gives a remotely different figure, even one representing ETA themselves, who conversely, haven't denied the killing of Carrasco, as they did in 2004. Are there any sources calling the figures into question that you've seen? Valenciano (talk) 23:12, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I've no objection to the 822 figure. If you look at the current article I've tried to do what I've done before "822 people according to the Spanish government". The overwhelming majority of people will agree that the Spanish government are 99.99% correct about this, it isn't phrased in a way that makes it sound wrong (well I don't think so) or POV, it's just correctly attributing the information to where it came from. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 23:15, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

And you might want to take a closer look at the lead of the article and compare it to the Pravda article. Version at the time (just to cover all the bases) said "Since 1968 to date ETA has killed 821 people and committed dozens of kidnappings. ETA is proscribed as a terrorist organisation by both the Spanish and French authorities as well as the European Union as a whole, the United States, and the United Nations". Pravda say "Since 1968 to date ETA has killed 821 people and committed dozens of kidnappings. ETA is proscribed as a terrorist organisation by both the Spanish and French authorities as well as the European Union as a whole, the United States, and the United Nations". Spot the difference? And Turkishpress said 819 in February! I've no objection to "over 800" or anything like that, I just think we should be careful stating an exact figure as fact without attribution. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 23:21, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

This is a case of verifiability not truth and obviously its a difficult area, we aren't interested in how many objectively died at the hands of ETA, nor should our readers expect us to but what the sources say. As encyclopedia writers it certainly isn't for us to judge who killed Carrasco so lets go with a sourced 822. Thanks, SqueakBox 23:24, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

SB I've no objection to 822, 800+ or anything similar, just let's attribute it? If you state 822 as fact, it's an NPOV violation. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 23:26, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I think my point is the same as yours really, ie we dont know the facts, nobody does in this murky area,, so lets absolutely stick with reliable sources and if they give different figures we can even state that es gov says one thing, Gara another etc. Thanks, SqueakBox 23:28, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

That's what I'm trying to do, I'm just running into claims that "killed 822 people according to the Spanish government" is a biased statement, when I see it as a perfectly attributed statement that doesn't take sides. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 23:30, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Its not biased IMO. Thanks, SqueakBox 23:45, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Pravda you're probably right, but Turkish press says "819 killed in Spain" the 821 figure = 819 killed in Spain plus two in France. But gov't attributed figure is absolutely fine, if another figure emerges it should go in. By the way, on the topic, maybe I'm blind but a glaring omission is that the 2004 Madrid bombings were originally blamed on ETA [18] Valenciano (talk) 23:39, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I hope you'll add it then, unquestionably both true and notable. Thanks, SqueakBox 23:45, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

In fact I've even got no objection to the wording being made into something like "according to official Spanish government figures", just to make it as clear as possible. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 23:47, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Paramilitary

I agree not to use the term "terrorist" as it used for example in the Red Brigades page, but the armed group description is ridiculous; what's then the difference between ETA and the Bloods or the Mara Salvatrucha, you could even argue that Blackwater is an armed group. The term paramilitary is quite clearly applicable because ETA views themselves as the army of liberation of the Basque speaking territories, and it has no POV. It is also the term used in the disambiguation and the term used to define similar groups as the INLA.Neveryou 8:35, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Paramilitary is ambiguous, "armed" is not. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 09:15, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Agree. "Armed" is the NPOV way to go. "Armed" is undisputable. "Paramilitary" is NOT. Randroide (talk) 09:53, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Everyone who owns arm is armed.Armed does not define anything. Paramilitary means that the group is armed following or aspiring to some military organization. ETA has claimed the,selves that category. AS I said before INLAand other groups similar to ETA are defined as paramilitary in Wikipedia articles.Which one is exactly the POV in paramilitary?Neveryou —Preceding unsigned comment added by Neveryou (talk • contribs) 00:08, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

We're not attempting to define anything, as that's adequately dealt with in the following sentences. "Armed" is purely factual, whereas "paramilitary" is vague and ambiguous. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 00:12, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

We are not trying to define anything? My bad I this was an encyclopedia and not someones little power tripping mechanism. You do not answer to any of my arguments-A) Paramilitary is used in other Wikipedia articles for organization very similar to ETA.B) Armed is applied to anyone that has guns, indeed ETA has them but the are illegal. Should we put illegally armed, because that a fact too.C)ETA and those who support ETA name it frequently as a liberation army. This is Wikipedia's definition of paramilitary:"Paramilitary designates forces whose function and organization are similar to those of a professional military force, but which are not regarded as having the same status". I don't see what is ambiguous or vague in it.Neveryou

NPOV dispute

The opinions of ETA's enemies cannot be presented as fact, gross breach of NPOV especially when it isn't backed up by neutral sources. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 23:04, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Since there has been no attempt to justify the biased version, I have restored a policy compliant version. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 09:16, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I still can't see the bias. As I said, ETA routinarily vindicates their killings and bombings and then the Interior Ministry is basically adding up in the count. To say that the figure is "according to the Spanish government" is, to me, the biased version, because it implies that, according to ETA the figure is a different one, something which is not the case.

If the problem is with the Isaías Carrasco killing, as I said back in the day also, we can keep the consolidated figure of 821 until this one killing is vindicated or 822 with the dubious tag if you may. Mountolive _{group using a loop of another pop group} 17:35, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

The opinion of their enemies can't be presented as fact. As they have chosen to update to 822 based on virtually no evidence other than opinion (per secondary sources), that calls into question the reliability of the rest of the figures. I've no objection to presenting the figure, just it needs to be attributed properly. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 23:00, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I would understand the question if ETA was claiming a different figure, then the "enemies opinion" would make sense to me, but ETA is not disputing this figure, is it?

Since ETA assumes this figure at ease, then I just fail to see the NPOV question. Mountolive _{group using a loop of another pop group} 17:36, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I'll try and explain this in full. ETA claim responsbility for attacks that they make. The Spanish government also attribute attacks to ETA. The total figure claimed by ETA may be different to the total figure claimed by the Spanish government, or it may be the same. As the Spanish government updated the total from 821 to 822 without waiting for confirmation from ETA, this brings into question how the 821 total was arrived at. If the total was the number of deaths ETA have admitted responsibility for, why update the total to 822 before ETA have admitted responsibility? Therefore the Spanish government don't wait for confirmation from ETA before updating the total, they just update it based on their opinion. Which is all well and good, but that means we can't state the total as a fact. What do you think of the new wording anyway? "according to official Spanish government figures" is ok surely? One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 18:48, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes. Thanks, SqueakBox 19:03, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi ONIH. The byzantine 821/822 rationale looks basically like water mudding to me, or being in denial of a reality you are not that comfortable with. You scared me, mate: I thought it wasnt possible for me to work with you either.

Fortunatelly for me, yes, I find the new wording much more agreeable and so I still love you. Hope you dont chastise me for the -I know, totally unrequested and uncalled for- Freudian analysis. Mountolive _{group using a loop of another pop group} 18:58, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I suggest you check who updated the total from 821 to 822 to match the official site to begin with, I have no dog in this fight other than neutrality. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 19:03, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I have yet again removed original research per policy. "Thus, the..." is conjecture on the part of an editor. All the sources state is that ETA are designated, they make no mention of why they are designated. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 19:19, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

All the sources state that ETA is designated make no mention of 'why'? ONIH, are you from Palailogos ancestry? That would be pretty cool, by the way.

ETA is not classed as terrorist because it shares acronym with Estimated Time Arrival, or because it has a somewhat creepy logo or because their members like to use nicknames. It is classed as terrorist because it commits politically driven killings, bombings and kidnappings, and that matches the criminal laws of the countries designating it as terrorist. So there is a self-evident cause-effect relationship there, therefore, it is not speculative -let alone OR...oh my!- adding "thus", it is just informative and neutral. Actually I was thinking of "therefore", but I just thought that "thus" would be maybe better for more touchy souls.

Damn, there is no originality in wikipedia: we all think we are neutral.

Damn (bis) you could have at least waited for my reasons here in the talk page, couldnt you? It only took 5 mins... Mountolive _{group using a loop of another pop group} 19:27, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Well the problem is that different governments classify groups for wholly different reasons. In fact one of the key reasons for a group being classed as an FTO by the US government is The organization’s terrorist activity or terrorism must threaten the security of U.S. nationals or the national security (national defense, foreign relations, or the economic interests) of the United States. So providing a group doesn't do that, they can kill, bomb, maim and murder as many people as they want and they won't be classed as an FTO. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 19:32, 27 March 2008 (UTC)