Talk:MF Doom

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Frequently asked questions

Why doesn't Wikipedia write "MF DOOM" in all caps?

Wikipedia uses lowercase for two reasons:

Wikipedia has its own manual of style, and does not write things in BLOCK CAPS. See MOS:ALLCAPS for more information.

Per WP:PSTS, Wikipedia values reliable secondary sources (such as coverage in Rolling Stone, New York Times etc) over primary sources (such as Doom's albums, singles etc). In other words, how Doom chose to write his own name isn't important to Wikipedia.

Per MOS:BIOEXCEPT, Wikipedia only makes exceptions when an overwhelming majority of reliable secondary sources use that exceptional style. This is not the case for Doom — a great many reliable sources write Doom lowercase. See this non-exhaustive list for examples of how the name is written in secondary sources published since 2020.

Why does Wikipedia say MF Doom was British-American?

Wikipedia is based on reliable secondary sources. These sources variously describe Doom as American, British-American or British-born.

The consensus among Wikipedia editors is that "British-American" is the best compromise for the lead sentence. It reflects the plurality of sources and is a reasonable interpretation of his identity. The complexity of MF Doom's nationality and citizenship is described in detail in the article body.

This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

MF Doom has been listed as one of the Music good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
May 2, 2021	Good article nominee	Listed

A news item involving this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "In the news" column on January 1, 2021.

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This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.

Discussions:

Not moved, 13 September 2009, from MF Doom to MF DOOM, see discussion.
Not moved, 20 August 2013, from MF Doom to Daniel Dumile, see discussion.
Not moved, 7 February 2015, from MF Doom to MF DOOM, see discussion.

This article has been viewed enough times in a single week to appear in the Top 25 Report. The week in which this happened:

December 27, 2020 to January 2, 2021 (2nd)

Capitalization of MF DOOM's name by various sources

Link to subpage (Edit list)

MOS:BIOEXCEPT tells us that unusual titling requires an overwhelming majority of reliable sources use that exceptional style. In order to keep a reliable record of sources which title DOOM's name as "MF Doom" and "MF DOOM", I (User:Howardcorn33) have created this table which reviews reliable sources with links attached. In order to only rely on recent reliable sources, I have chosen sources published after 2020. It is possible that in the future, the style of reliable sources will become overwhelmingly "MF DOOM." This table may therefore be updated as necessary by any user with new reliable publications so that we may be certain of the correct style.


Preferred style	Medium	Year	Link
MF DOOM	Academic journal	2022	[1]
MF DOOM	Academic journal	2023	[2]
MF DOOM	Literary magazine	2021	[3]
MF Doom	Academic journal	2023	[4]
MF Doom	Book	2024	[5]
MF DOOM	Academic journal	2021	[6]
MF Doom	Book	2024	[7]
MF Doom	Academic journal	2022	[8]
MF Doom	Academic journal	2020	[9]
MF Doom	Academic journal	2022	[10]
MF Doom	Book	2023	[11]
MF DOOM	Book	2023	[12]
MF Doom	Book	2023	[13]
MF Doom	Book	2021	[14]
MF Doom	Book	2024	[15]
MF Doom	Book	2020	[16]
MF Doom	Book	2023	[17]
MF Doom	Book	2022	[18]
MF DOOM	Entertainment news	2021	[19]
MF DOOM	Entertainment news	2024	[20]
MF DOOM	Entertainment news	2024	[21]
MF DOOM	Entertainment news	2024	[22]
MF DOOM	Entertainment news	2024	[23]
MF DOOM	Entertainment news	2023	[24]
MF DOOM	Entertainment news	2024	[25]
MF Doom	Entertainment news	2023	[26]
MF DOOM	Entertainment news	2023	(same website) [27]
MF Doom	General news	2023	[28]
MF DOOM	General news	2023	[29]
MF Doom	General news	2023	[30]
MF Doom	General news	2021	[31]
MF DOOM	Lifestyle news	2023	[32]
MF Doom	General news	2023	[33]
MF DOOM	General news	2021	[34]
MF Doom	General news	2021	[35]
MF DOOM	Entertainment news	2021	[36]
MF DOOM	General news	2023	[37]
MF Doom	General news	2023	(same website) [38]

―Howard • 🌽³³ 13:48, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

These are cherry-picked sources, avoiding the sources which do not capitalize the name, for instance The New York Times from January 2021, and The Guardian from December 2020. And why start at 2020 when there are good sources going back to 2010, showing the name in lower case?[39] If you want to have any leverage here, you must list all the sources and indicate whether they show all caps, lower case, or a combination of the two styles. That way people can plainly see the balance. Binksternet (talk) 14:26, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

like i said, you are free to add more as any user can. I did not intend to cherry-pick sources, but only choose recent sources so that Wikipedia may be up-to-date with contemporary sources. it is impossible to list every source, I don't think any individual can do that. ―Howard • 🌽³³ 14:54, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

also I don't see why I should include The Guardian and NYT in my list since they are already in the list. it makes no sense to include the same website twice if its from the same source, unless if that website contains two styles of the name. ―Howard • 🌽³³ 18:14, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think having a list like this is a good idea, and it will help in future (inevitable) debates about the capitalization. If we get consensus that this list is useful then it would be good to add it to the FAQ.

I agree that there's no need to list the same sources twice, except in cases sources use both styles (I added a Rolling Stone example there), unless we use Binksternet's idea of just saying whether they use one style or both. It would also be useful to include the names of the sources in the table.

I agree with Binksternet that starting at 2020 seems arbitrary to me — we don't generally prefer newer or older sources unless we have a good reason to think an older source is out of date or whatever. Popcornfud (talk) 20:11, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The reason I have restricted the list to recent sources is because I believe we should be up-to-date with the style of the newer sources. This isn't a question of factual reliability but stylistic modernity, Wikipedia should merely update to what the current academic/media consensus at the moment, so that we don't appear outdated. the year 2020 is arbitrary, true, but that's only because I had to pick a year to determine which sources are recent. We can pick a different year, either a few years before or ahead. But to count all years in determining our style would bias our style to older sources even if more recent sources decide to overwhelmingly use a different style. ―Howard • 🌽³³ 20:32, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

adding this to the FAQ could also be useful as currently people are confused by "the majority use lowercase" and come to the talkpage because they dont understand that the majority of sources don't do all caps without being presented with evidence. ―Howard • 🌽³³ 20:34, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

But to count all years in determining our style would bias our style to older sources

I think that's a feature of Wikipedia sourcing, not a bug. Popcornfud (talk) 20:35, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hm. I've been reading and according to WP:NAMECHANGE, "recent sources" indicate when the name was actually changed. I'm pretty sure MF DOOM began specifying his name to be spelled in All Caps in 2004, so it appears we should account for all sources written from Feb. 2004 onwards instead of 2020. ―Howard • 🌽³³ 20:47, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Some more sources:

I know that you shouldn't use Wikipedia as a source in Wikipedia, but several other Wikipedias either use all caps at least once:

https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/MF_Doom

https://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/MF_DOOM

https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/MF_DOOM.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/MF_Doom

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/MF_DOOM

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/MF_Doom

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/MF_Doom

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/MF_DOOM

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Dumile

https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/MF_Doom

https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/MF_Doom

https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/MF_Doom

The page for NehruvianDOOM uses all caps also.

Here's a list of all the other sources I've found:

https://pitchfork.com/reviews/albums/12869-born-like-this/

https://www.billboard.com/music/rb-hip-hop/open-mike-eagle-freestyle-mf-doom-tribute-9506744/

https://www.billboard.com/music/rb-hip-hop/idk-use4yourself-interview-9603042/ Smirkjuice (talk) 05:52, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.billboard.com/music/rb-hip-hop/mf-doom-dead-reactions-9506029/

https://www.billboard.com/business/legal/mf-doom-estate-lawsuit-manager-songwriting-notebooks-theft-1235453893/

https://audiosnobbery.com/2021/01/31/tripping-out-on-mf-doom/

https://rateyourmusic.com/list/Vocab/a_complete_guide_to__mf_doom/

https://pitchfork.com/features/article/untangling-mf-dooms-lifelong-struggle-with-the-us-immigration-system/

https://thedrip.substack.com/p/will-the-real-mf-doom-please-stand

https://www.loudandquiet.com/short/all-caps-when-you-spell-the-man-name/

https://www.complex.com/music/a/edwin-ortiz/20-things-you-didnt-know-about-mf-doom

https://www.theringer.com/2021/1/4/22212562/mf-doom-daniel-dumile-madvillain-syllabus-kmd-dunks

https://www.one37pm.com/music/mf-doom-mask-facts

https://www.npr.org/2021/01/01/952519277/mf-doom-enigmatic-rapper-and-producer-dead-at-49

https://www.nme.com/news/music/marvel-first-doom-comic-since-2000-pays-tribute-to-mf-doom-3757119

https://www.theringer.com/2024/3/26/24112396/mf-doom-a-hero-in-a-villains-mask

https://thefordhamram.com/88725/culture/mm-food-and-the-unique-sound-of-mf-doom/

https://www.passionweiss.com/2019/01/09/mf-doom-interview/

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/mf-doom-dead-1109072/

https://slate.com/culture/2021/01/mf-doom-dead-rapper-producer-madvillain.html

https://highbrowshawn.medium.com/mf-doom-hip-hops-worst-kept-secret-206043ae139d

https://www.theringer.com/2021/1/1/22209728/mf-doom-daniel-dumile-obituary

https://www.vulture.com/article/mf-doom-obituary.html

https://noise.thehardtimes.net/2021/01/04/death-of-a-super-villain-mf-dooms-origin-story-and-legacy/

https://medium.com/@103862/what-about-mf-doom-makes-him-more-memorable-than-other-musicians-7379dfd04b25

https://pitchfork.com/thepitch/10-songs-that-show-why-mfandnbspdoomandnbspwas-the-ultimate-rappers-rapper/

https://americahates.us/articles/2023/11/23/why-i-havent-stopped-thinking-about-mf-doom-and-you-shouldnt-either

https://www.pastemagazine.com/music/mf-doom/best-mf-doom-songs

https://tidal.com/magazine/article/mf-doom-1971-2020/1-76198

https://www.euronews.com/culture/2023/07/05/mf-dooms-cause-of-death-revealed-widow-accuses-uk-hospital-of-negligence

https://www.complex.com/music/a/backwoodsaltar/mf-doom-dead-49

https://thevogue.com/artists/mf-doom-2/

His songs also say that his name is all caps, like these 3 for example:

All Caps - "Just remember all caps when you spell the mans name"

Ballskin - "All big letters but it isn't no acronym"

Monkey Suite - "DOOM, all capitals, no trick spelling"

At the end of the music video for ?/Question Mark, in the bottom left corner, it says "MF DOOM". The video was filmed in December 2000, which is a year after the release of his first album Operation: Doomsday. Smirkjuice (talk) 06:26, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

having an example of MF DOOM's name stylization

I think there is worth in having an written example of MF DOOM's stylized name similar to this page Glass Beach (band). it's a simple change I don't see a reason against, and could quell the flood of topics about the stylization. 108.31.77.20 (talk) 00:24, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Monsta Island Czars

There is no mention of Monsta Island Czars even though MF DOOM was a part of the group and was an artist and producer on the aalbum Escape From Monsta Island 84.15.179.123 (talk) 22:34, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Capitalisation

His name is MF DOOM, not MF Doom, not Doom, it is all capitals. The majority of sources use all caps, despite the claim in the FAQ. There are also countless inconsistencies with the capitalisation of his name in Wikipedia. His actual name is MF DOOM, it's not just capitalised letters for the sake of it.

Several of his songs tell you it's all caps. The ones I can remember are:

All Caps ~ "Just remember all caps when you spell the man' name."

Monkey Suite ~ "DOOM, ALL CAPITALS, no trick spellin', got what it take to get through your thick melon"

Ballskin ~ "All big letters but it isn't no acronym"

GMO ~ "Yours truly, all caps DOOM"

STILL KAPS ~ "WILLIE ISZ in all caps like MF DOOM" DOOM doesn't feature on this track, but it's in Key to the Kuffs, the same album that GMO is in.

Bells of DOOM also references that his name is in all caps in the title.

In the official music video for "? (Question Mark)", from his album Operation: Doomsday, the video credits MF DOOM, and this video was filmed in December 2000. DOOM released albums with his name under all caps. Lex Records uses all caps, Stones Throw too. His official website, gasdrawls.com, lists his name as MF DOOM.

The vast majority of sources, and the really internet as a whole, use capital letters. The only reason you see "MF Doom" a lot is because of news organizations, like The New York Times, trying to make a quick buck from his death, not really caring about the name as long as they can get advertisers on their page, and paying to get the top results on Google. Here's some of the sources that spell his name correctly:

[40][41][42][43][44][45][46][47][48][49][50][51][52][53][54][55][56][57][58][59][60][61][62][63][64][65][66][67][68][69][70][71][72][73][74][75][76][77][78][79][80][81][82][83][84][85][86][87][88][89][90][91][92][93][94][95][96][97][98][99][100][101][102][103][104][105][106][107][108][109][110][111][112][113][114][115][116][117][118][119][120][121][122][123][124][125][126][127][128][129][130][131][132][133][134][135][136][137]

There are a lot of inconsistencies with the capitalisation of DOOM across Wikipedia, several pages use all caps, others don't, and some even switch between the 2 throughout the article. It should be standardized to use all caps, since that is his actual stage name.

MF Doom discography is one of, if not, the biggest case of switching between capitalisation. Take the top of the article, it says: "For his production work, see MF DOOM production discography.", and the first photo in the article (which isn't even of DOOM by the way), has the title "MF DOOM discography", while the caption says "MF Doom in 2008". Also, the page for DOOM's production discography exclusively uses all caps in the article, apart from the title and the "Further information" notice.

The pages for his albums Operation: Doomsday, Take Me to Your Leader, VV:2, Born Like This, Unexpected Guests, Key to the Kuffs, The Missing Notebook Rhymes, and Czarface Meets Metal Face all mainly use all caps for his name too, with a lot of other pages using all caps at least once.

Wikipedia in other languages also use all caps in just his article, not including any articles that even mention him. The ones I found being Danish Wikipedia, Catalan Wikipedia, Chinese Wikipedia, French Wikipedia, German Wikipedia, Dutch Wikipedia, Russian Wikipedia, Spanish Wikipedia, Italian Wikipedia, Polish Wikipedia, Japanese Wikipedia, and Ukrainian Wikipedia. Smirkjuice (talk) 07:29, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've fixed the capitalization on Wikipedia's other Doom pages. Thanks for flagging that inconsistency. Popcornfud (talk) 11:10, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There's also an entire movie that DOOM features in, with him being credited under "MF DOOM". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-blmk5GsYRQ Smirkjuice (talk) 13:20, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's fine but it doesn't make any difference to Wikipedia, see the FAQ at the top of this page. Popcornfud (talk) 16:33, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I was just listing another source. Also, the FAQ says "In other words, how Doom chose to write his own name isn't important to Wikipedia.", but per MOS:BIOEXCEPT, he has clearly declared and consistently used a preferred exceptional style for his own name, so that's wrong. Plus, it's not stylised, that is literally his stage name, it's trademarked under MF DOOM, and the trademark is owned by Dogfoot Management, LLC, ran by DOOM's wife, Jasmine Dumile.

Also, did you not see all the other sources I listed? Or do I need to give you some more? Smirkjuice (talk) 02:59, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]