Talk:DJ Ozma

Typo?

Age Age Every Knight or Age Age Every Night ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.235.226.196 (talk)

Knight. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 145.118.76.74 (talk) 10:21, 3 April 2007 (UTC).

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move. Vegaswikian (talk) 23:29, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

DJ OZMA → DJ Ozma – The name is not an acronym, so it should use standard English casing in accordance with the manual of style guidelines at WP:ALLCAPS and WP:MOSTM. --DAJF (talk) 08:54, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

• Support per WP:ALLCAPS. Jenks24 (talk) 15:43, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose: This is the form that the individual's name takes in all reliable sources, and per WP:COMMONNAME (a policy), we should not make up a new form just because it does not fit the guidelines we have set out. Also, because this is someone's personal name (even if it just a stage name), WP:MOSTM does not apply. Just because it is not an acronym does not mean that the name cannot be parsed in all capital letters. There is already a consensus set for individuals whose names are written without any capitalization, so we should not set up a double standard for those whose names are written entirely capitalized.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 18:00, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
• Support move in accordance and compliance with Manual of Style. The MOS:ALLCAPS is very clear. While use or failure to use all caps is not applicable to WP:COMMONNAME, GHits reveal a lack of commonality and consistency in capitalization of the subject's name. Please note that reverting edits by others that have served to bring the article into compliance is certainly not productive, appearing to disregard established community behavioral guidelines. Cind.amuse (Cindy) 01:56, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
  • You have the lead match the article title, regardless of current location of the article.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 02:32, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
  • WP:BRD seems to have been followed quite normally here. A change was made, it was reverted, and is now being discussed. I don't see any problem. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 03:06, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
  • This is precisely the problem: as the applicable rules regarding situations like this now stand, there is seemingly no way to present this individual's name without being out of compliance with either one rule or the other. Presenting it as DJ OZMA could be interpreted as being in violation of MOS:ALLCAPS, but presenting it as DJ Ozma could be interpreted as being in violation of WP:COMMONNAME and WP:BLP, as altering an individual's verifiable name to an original and less verifiable version does not seem to constitute the required strict adherence to "neutral point of view, verifiability, no original research". Given that the letter of the rules is contradictory, what's left (at least until the contradiction is ironed out) is to abide by the spirit of the rules. Judging by things like WP:SURNAME and MOS:CAPS#Mixed_or_non-capitalization, the spirit of the rules seems clearly to be that individuals' names should be presented and capitalized as they are in reliable third-party sources. Ibanez100 (talk) 19:15, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
    • The styling "DJ Ozma" is not original; it is verifiable in reliable English-language sources, as I have pointed out below. So in this case, there's no conflict between the policies (and guidelines) that you mention if we use that styling. Dicklyon (talk) 20:26, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
      • Those are not reliable English-language sources. There is however a clear double standard for when it comes to no caps vs. all caps for a person's name.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 23:45, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
      • One of those sources is a Wiki which anyone can edit, one is a lighthearted blog called "WTF Japan Seriously", two are online vendors, and one is an online vendor/aggregator. Of those, I would say the two vendors (Amazon and iTunes) are so-so sources - they could be used to verify the existence of an album for example - and the others are not reliable. In the interest of neutrality and verifiability, we should give preference to whatever is the most "regular and established use in reliable third-party sources", not what two so-so sources and three unreliable sources call him. Cherrypicking a few sources to support an uncommon (but you're right, not original) presentation of his name is not neutral. Ibanez100 (talk) 00:05, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAMES. As determined by reliable third party sources, DJ OZMA is the most common name for the subject. Per WP:BLP, BLP articles must adhere strictly to "neutral point of view, verifiability, no original research". Altering an individual's verifiable name to an original and less verifiable version is contrary to all three of those core policies. Ibanez100 (talk) 02:00, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

My interpretation of WP:COMMONNAMES is that it means that the article title should use his commonly used name, i.e. DJ Ozma, instead of his actual name(s), Nao Baba or Sumitada Ozumano. It is not actually talking about whether we should use all-caps (we shouldn't). --DAJF (talk) 02:24, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose. WP:ALLCAPS is far from clear in respect to people's names and pseudonyms, and seems to cover every case except these. Putting ALLCAPS alteration of trademarks aside (which I don't necessarily agree with either), a name is intended to be a contextually unique identifier. We make no prescriptions over pronunciation, (eg. 'Jan' => 'Jan' or 'Yahn'), and I similarly don't think it's appropriate to make prescriptions over the written form either. If reliable sources consistently refer to the subject in allcaps, that should be preserved. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 03:06, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

• Support – there's no compelling evidence that the all-caps version is uniquely correct. Many sources (including [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], and others) treat it as more normal, as "DJ Ozma". So should we. Dicklyon (talk) 18:58, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
  • The issue is that are those considered reliable sources? Nearly all of the reliable sources are Japanese and parse his name as "DJ OZMA". These English language websites are sources, but two of them are fansites and the others are English vendors that have their own internal standards. I still think that the individual's preference should come first, even though the DJ OZMA has been retired.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 19:07, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
    • I think our policy is to give preference to reliable English-language sources; but for styling, we give preference to our own style rules. Here, the reliable English-language sources just serve to indicate that our styling is among the stylings typically used in English-language sources. Dicklyon (talk) 20:23, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
      • No. Our policy is "Some individuals do not want their personal names capitalized. In such cases, Wikipedia articles may use lower case variants of personal names if they have regular and established use in reliable third-party sources (for example, k.d. lang)." The same should be said for all capitalized names like DJ OZMA's.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 23:45, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
        • Our policy is more-or-less non-existent. You can find plenty of evidence that you're right, Ryūlóng, and plenty of evidence to the contrary. -GTBacchus^(talk) 13:50, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

• Comment/Question - This is interesting. I've noticed that the community has allowed bell hooks and k.d. lang despite their non-standard capitalization. It seems that the fact that those are personal names distinguishes them from cases covered by MOSTM. On the other hand, Brian D Foy was moved from brian d foy in 2008 and has remained stable ever since, even though third-party sources seem to use the lower-case variant.

  I don't know of another case of a personal name that is usually written in all-caps. Where would be the best place for central discussion of this issue? -GTBacchus^(talk) 01:02, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

  • Personal names which are usually written in all caps Latin letters are common (but not universal) among the stage names of Japanese musicians - I would estimate that in this demographic there are literally hundreds of people with names of this type, and can provide you some specific examples if you want. I don't know if there are any non-Japanese with all caps personal names and would be very interested in knowing about it if there are. Of course, given that Japanese musicians are a small niche interest among English speakers, I'm not surprised that the MOS does not seem to explicitly address the issue of all caps personal names; this is not an issue which probably occurs much in the big scheme of Wikipedia. This is being centrally discussed here[[6]] and now here[[7]]; please do read and weigh in if you're interested. Ibanez100 (talk) 05:01, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

• Neutral, leaning to Oppose - Because of how we've handled the two articles I mentioned immediately above, and per discussions in a couple of other places (permalinks: [8][9]), I think this one could stay where it is. This way of styling stage names appears to be standard in treatment of many Japanese performers, even in English-language publications. It also appears that there is not consensus support for the policy that k.d. lang is okay while DJ OZMA isn't. People see this as a double-standard.

  I've also made a suggestion over at Talk:Brian D Foy#Capitalization 2011 to restore his name to lowercase formatting. That case seems entirely parallel with bell hooks and k.d. lang. -GTBacchus^(talk) 23:59, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

• Recommend putting on hold pending outcome of Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Capital letters#Individuals' names. That's an on-going RFC seeking clarification (and possibly change in MOS guidelines). It even highlights his move-req as a good example of the problem and so that new consensus (if one arises) for the guideline would be the rule to follow, not some older precedent (WP:CCC). DMacks (talk) 14:49, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move: DJ OZMA → DJ Ozma

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. There appears to be consensus here that the cited guidelines apply to things like stage names and that the exception for uncapitalized names at WP:MOSCAPS does not extend to names in all capitals. Also, there is consensus here that this article should be moved, and the proposed form is used in many reliable sources, including ones such as iTunes that are not shy about using nonstandard stylings. I share GTBacchus' and others' dismay that we seem to be ok with uncapitalized names but not all capitalized ones, but that does appear to be the state of affairs at this time. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 04:46, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

---

DJ OZMA → DJ Ozma – The subject is far more notable in Japanese WP:RS than in English. But he has been mentioned in several English-language RS, always in the proposed form. See Amazon, allmusic, The Japan Times, and more below. The issue of stage names with unconventional formats has been address earlier in the cases of Kesha, Pink, and most recently Melody. Kauffner (talk) 13:49, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

There are three relevant guidelines:

• WP:ALLCAPS: Provides a series of examples in which unconventional all caps must be reduced, regardless of how the word appears in the RS. No suggestion that unconventional all caps is acceptable in any situation.
• WP:MOSTM: “choose among styles already in use...and choose the style that most closely resembles standard English”.
• WP:CAPS: This one is specific to article titles and supports capitalization to conform with the major style guides.

Usage examples:

• "The dancers, who appeared to be topless and dressed in nothing but skimpy knickers, filled the stage during a performance by the singer DJ Ozma, prompting hundreds of viewers to phone in and complain." The Independent, Jan. 2, 2007.
• "I think the saddest indictment of this country was that last year the two biggest DJs were DJ Kaori and DJ Ozma. That was the state of Japanese dance music last year." The Japan Times, Nov. 13, 2009.
• "Go and DJ Ozma will perform a special version of one of Go's biggest hits with a new arrangement by Ozma." The Japan Times, April 20, 2008. Kauffner (talk) 13:49, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
• Suppliment: "A troupe of dancers wearing flesh-colored bodysuits took the stage during a performance by the singer DJ Ozma forcing the national broadcaster NHK to apologize to viewers for what appeared to be nudity, Reuters reported.", New York Times, January 2, 2007.

Survey

• Support. The relevant guidelines are quite clear; we avoid all-caps unless its a legitimate acronym or initialism. WP:COMMONNAME, referenced in the previous move request, is really irrelevant, as that guideline addresses choosing among different names, not different spellings or different capitalizations of the same name. Powers ^T 16:37, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose: It's the name he goes by in the public. The fact he is known as "DJ OZMA" should make the title just as valid as "will.i.am" or "apl.de.ap". Also The Japan Times is such a minority source. Its style guide should not be used to determine the style guide of the English Wikipedia.—Ryulong (竜龙) 17:39, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
• Support WP:ALLCAPS 76.65.128.132 (talk) 22:54, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
• Support per all the cited guidelines and links to usage in English sources. Dicklyon (talk) 23:20, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
  • None of the cited guidelines even remotely cover a person's (stage) name. ALLCAPS does not mention a person's name, MOSTM does not cover people's names, and CAPS is also absent of how to title a page on a person. It is wrong to suggest that these style guides and policies cover the titling of this page when they are completely absent of any sort of situation or example when discussing a person's name, which was a fact brought up in the previous requested move several months ago. The only thing that comes close is the section on MOSCAPS that covers the acceptance of "k.d. lang" as an article title. And while The Japan Times is a reliable source, why the heck should the English Wikipedia base its style off of only a single other website's style just because they're the only English language reliable source?—Ryulong (竜龙) 23:54, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
    • It's a stagename, hence it is a trademark. 76.65.128.132 (talk) 00:13, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose. The MOS already establishes exceptions for names of individuals such as k.d. lang and will.i.am. The examples may well be downcased but there's no reason to believe this exception doesn't apply to any unusual capitalisation. Neither of the caps guidelines apply since this (being the two examples in my first sentence) is an established exception to the rule, so quoting the base rule is ineffective. MOS:TM doesn't apply here: not all stage names are trademarked, in the same way not all product names are trademarked. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 00:20, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Product names are trademarks. Not necessarily registered, but still trademarks, just like performer names. And the capitalization rules seem fairly explicit about preferring more English variants to all caps. Dicklyon (talk) 00:39, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

A stage name != a product name.—Ryulong (竜龙) 01:14, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

A stage name is a brand, it is indeed a product name. 76.65.128.132 (talk) 07:37, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

If any significant amount of money is changing hands because of the mark, then it is a trademark -- and it does not have to be registered. I think we can safely assume that there are people in Japan who associate the name "DJ Ozma" with a certain style of performance and buy a ticket (or don't buy a ticket) on that basis. Since we aren't cut into the revenue stream, there is no reason for us to present the mark in a promotional style. Kauffner (talk) 09:03, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

• Support. I still think the guidelines as laid out at WP:ALLCAPS and WP:MOSTM are pretty clear on this: we don't use all-caps for stylistic purposes. --DAJF (talk) 06:33, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
  • They may be clear, but are they reasonable, and are they consistent with our other guidelines? -GTBacchus^(talk) 19:44, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
    • I personally think they are entirely reasonable and logical, as all-caps in English is normally reserved for acronyms - which "DJ Ozma" is not. I would argue that the rules allowing names to be written here in all-lower-case are inconsistent with Wikipedia's manual of style and constitute unnecessary pandering to entertainers' vanity. --DAJF (talk) 23:35, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
      • Yeah, that's the argument. I wish there were a clearer consensus on this point, but bell hooks and k.d. lang seem to be unmovable, while DJ OZMA doesn't appear so. I personally don't care one way or the other; I just would like it if we made up our hive-mind to do one thing and do it consistently. -GTBacchus^(talk) 08:39, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

• Support removal of vanity capitalisation, per DAJF. --Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 16:59, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
• Comment - I don't see the argument for refusing to use all-caps formatting for personal names when we agree to use all-lowercase formatting for personal names: bell hooks, k.d. lang, brian d foy, will.i.am. I once argued that all-caps signals an acronym to general readers, but then someone pointed out that no-caps signals a common noun, so I don't see how all-caps is any more of a problem than all-lowercase. I support whatever the consensus decision is, but it's a conflicted consensus, IMO, that allows the above examples and doesn't allow "DJ OZMA". -GTBacchus^(talk) 19:43, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

  You realize that we have a guideline banning all-caps, as well as another guideline that permits all-lowercase personal names? In any case, I don't see a good reason why K. D. Lang should get a special exception. I am hammering away at that problem over here. Kauffner (talk) 16:10, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

  Yes, I realize we have such guidelines, and I don't see the justification for it. It would seem more consistent to me if we allowed both, or else banned both. I don't care which.

  I would disagree in general with the "follow the rules; if you don't like the rules, propose a change" attitude. Our long-standing practice is that the so-called "rules" follow individual decisions made in the field on a case-by-case basis. The reason those guidelines exist is because people have argued for k.d. lang and against DJ OZMA. I'm suggesting that those arguments are not consistent with each other, and that a more broad-viewed re-evaluation would be appropriate. The appropriate place for such a re-evaluation to occur is here, and not on some guideline page. If we make a decision here, the guideline page will reflect that later. -GTBacchus^(talk) 22:08, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

  Well why the heck can't we have a guideline permitting all caps personal names?—Ryulong (竜龙) 21:06, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

  We could, but we don't. Probably because it's too eye-poking to look good. You can propose it if you want, but until then... – Dicklyon (talk) 21:11, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

  Why is "eye-poking" used so much? And proposing a change to a guideline to change a local page's consensus is not how things work. You set up the consensus to keep the form that currently goes against the guidelines (which are not strict rules) and that's that.—Ryulong (竜龙) 21:31, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

  Because no one's name is written in all-caps in English language RS. In Japanese, Kesha is "KE$HA".[10] So the all-caps Romanji style doesn't necessarily mean that the person actually has an all caps name. Kauffner (talk) 23:52, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

  That's an American artist in Japan. Not a Japanese artist in Japan or a Japanese artist in America/the UK/Canada/Australia. The majority of the sources, regardless of them being Japanese, refer to the subject as "DJ OZMA".—Ryulong (竜龙) 00:24, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.