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Requested move 16 December 2021

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The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Undiscussed move reverted as proposed. There is a clear consensus that the initial move should be reverted, and that there is a reasonable possibility that the moved article is the primary topic of the term. A proper move request can be filed for this subject, with evidence from page views and sources, at a later date. BD2412 T 23:47, 24 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Cummins (corporation) → Cummins – Revert undiscussed move. The user who moved this article said "I've never heard of this before." Honestly, I haven't either, but this is a 100+ year old company with a revenue of $20b in 2020, so this at least deserves a discussion before being moved out of the PT.

I originally wanted to move the dab page Cummins (disambiguation) over the title Cummins as a malplaced dab page, but I've thought better of it. Natg 19 (talk) 06:16, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@RandomCanadian: (user who moved the page) Natg 19 (talk) 06:16, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@162 etc.: who contested the dab page move. Natg 19 (talk) 06:18, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, this was an undiscussed move, and the article is a justified primary topic per pageviews [1]. 162 etc. (talk) 06:22, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose as WP:ITSOLD does not make something a primary topic. "Cummins" could also refer to Pat Cummins (i.e. what I was searching for, due to this; who gets far more views on average than this page, even when he's not actually playing in a game [and when he is, then you get the recent spikes]...) RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 06:39, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support reversion of this very recent undiscussed move. Should have been reverted as a technical request. Pageviews show the very well-known corporation is the overwhelming primary topic. When views spike for Pat Cummins, they do not similarly spike for Cummins, which shows virtually no one is searching for Pat expecting to find him under solely his surname. Station1 (talk) 07:46, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Controversial bold moves like this should simply be reverted. —Xezbeth (talk) 07:56, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Reverting a bold move without giving a reason why seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy to me. As for the pageviews argument, it seems like absolute cherrypicking to me. This shows that long-term, Pat Cummins gets more views than this, and even if he didn't, there's no reason to WP:BIAS a primary topic (an American multinational) when there simply isn't one. Outside of Wikipedia, googling "cummins" will show that there is far more coverage of the cricketer than of some random unremarkable American company (the only thing about said company that appears in the first page of results there is, surprise, an unremarkable press release...). RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 13:53, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    That link goes to a Google News search. Pat seems to be in the news a lot lately. A generic search shows different results. Station1 (talk) 18:55, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    A company flooding the search results with dozens of social media pages and the like is not relevant. Primary topics are not based on what is on the first page of results but on coverage in reliable sources. The news search clearly shows that "Cummins" is far more likely to, in such coverage, refer to Pat Cummins and not to some random American corporation. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 16:40, 18 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Even if Pat Cummins gets a lot more page views than this company, that does not disprove that the company is the PT. "Pat Cummins" is a partial match for Cummins, so the more important question is whether any of the other articles on the dab page are more likely to be a PT. Natg 19 (talk) 23:03, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Actually, it entirely does matter. If people look for "Cummins" and expect that they'll fall on the cricketer, and they end up on an unrelated page, that does not mean that the page they end up on is a primary topic for "Cummins" even if it is the only page whose title is solely "Cummins". This would be like someone looking for "micron": the term has a clear primary usage, even though, yes, there is a company named like it which happens to flood the first few pages of results. To take a similar example, look at Bush (which is a disambig page): Bush (plant) is obviously what most people mean when they say "bush" in the middle of a sentence, but it would be silly and unhelpful to the reader to not have it as a disambig page which also lists the US presidents. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 15:49, 21 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    As explained above, stats show virtually no one is searching for "Cummins" expecting they'll fall on the cricketer. Station1 (talk) 00:41, 22 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    And as also explained above, searching outside of Wikipedia (i.e. what Wikipedia is supposed to do: follow external usage, not set its own, as explicitly stated in WP:COMMONNAME, Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources) as such names will usually best fit the five criteria listed above.) shows that "Cummins" actually does have a fair (if not far greater) chance to actually refer to the cricketer. Since the argument that the company is the primary topic does not seem to match with this external coverage, then it is simply yet another case where the usage on Wikipedia is incorrect, and needs to be changed. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 03:27, 22 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't get why you are citing WP:COMMONNAME. Cummins is the name for this company, and whether this article is the primary topic or stays at Cummins (corporation) does relate to common name. The common name guideline is for articles like Gandhi, polio, or Bono (as stated on that page). Natg 19 (talk) 05:18, 22 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    The principles of COMMONNAME are the same as those used to determine whether something is a primary topic. That is, not usage on Wikipedia but usage in external sources. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 06:04, 22 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm not sure if that is actually true: see WP:DPT. Pageview data, which many users here are citing is one of the criterion. Also consider the "Not "what first comes to (your) mind" section. Natg 19 (talk) 06:44, 22 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Page view data is not a sina que non (and given that both pages get a similar amount of page views, if not the cricketer gets a bit more, they're not really evidence that "the American company is a clear primary topic"), and you also adroitly avoid the very next point, which is "Usage in English reliable sources"... as demonstrated above... RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 21:30, 22 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, I'm not convinced there's a primary topic. But Support moving DAB to base name.--Ortizesp (talk) 14:42, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - Cummins is a large company and likely the primary topic. If Cummins is not the correct title, then "Cummins Incorporated" should be the new title. In any event, we have got to have a hat note. BTW, does anyone know when the move review for "Waukesha parade attack" might be closed? --Jax 0677 (talk) 14:56, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Controversial bold moves like this should indeed simply be reverted: WP:BRD. No doubt we will see Root moved as well, followed by Boycott. (Pat Cummins is not Pele or Neymar.) Oculi (talk) 15:00, 19 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Non-policy based !vote which is essentially circular reasoning ("this should be reverted [i.e. Support], because it should simply be reverted"). Cummins might not be Pele or Neymar, but he doesn't need to: Cummins (the company) is not Apple or Google either. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 15:35, 19 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. But move to Cummins (company) per usual disambiguator. And move Cummins (disambiguation) to Cummins. No primary topic here. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:58, 22 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support As others have noted this obviously potentially controversial move should not have been executed without an RM, and the revert should have been a technical request. Once it’s moved back, if someone wants to make a formal argument to disambiguate, it can be considered then. —-В²C ☎ 09:36, 24 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    That's obviously a bogus rationale and should be discounted. "Revert because its controversial" does not help reach a new consensus. Having a separate discussion to disambiguate would be an obvious waste of time per WP:NOTBURO. Since the RM is already happening here, it is definitively best to have the discussion about the obvious need for disambiguation right here right now. If you can't address any of the arguments why the company is not an unambiguous primary topic, then the move should stand, because it was correct. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 19:02, 24 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    The rationale is far from bogus. As things stand, a no-consensus close will lead to 'keep' at the present title, thus handing the advantage to the unscrupulous mover (whose initial rationale was 'never heard of it' - diff) whereas the article should be reverted to its 'status quo ante' and those who wish to move it should present their case (with a coherent rationale). Oculi (talk) 19:36, 24 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

12v Cummins

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The 12v is the best truck motor for its time and In my opinion it still is because at the time it was pushing 20 psi while ford and Chevy only had five and still went just as far as the 7.3 and more Mechanicalmafia466 (talk) 14:27, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Onan Corp

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Does anyone here plan to add the Onan Corporation of Minneapolis to the history section? For example, David Onan invented his wrist meter in 1918. I think this must be an oversight. President Biden didn't make this mistake when he visited Cummins in Fridley. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:39, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

any content for the former Onan Corporation would be welcome in the section as long as it were well-cited. Group29 (talk) 18:25, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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