Talk:Claas Relotius

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undue or not?

Some text was deleted with the following explanation. A non-English source of uncertain provenance doesn't suffice. In addition, this is WP:UNDUE detail.

When the event happens not to be a British journalistic fraud but a German one, then the sources of course can be in some other language than English. The provenance is by no means uncertain by just saying so. The fraud was of egregious calibre, so the undue part is neither due here. No problem though, there are now sources in English explaining the quite exotic features of this event. I'm not going to edit war. So somebody else could write them reading maybe first what the two people from Fergus Falls found out, before Der Spiegel fired Relotius and published a large story onthe matter. --2001:14BB:410:44DA:D0C5:D7EB:4FA8:39D1 (talk) 20:51, 22 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It might make sense to move much of the content to a separate article about the Der Spiegel published serial journalistic fraud, since Relotius hardly reaches any wikisignificance without that incident. Biographies don't have room for detailed stuff on this. --2001:14BB:410:44DA:3C0D:542C:6D03:DACF (talk) 18:16, 23 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Warning

So, just to warn you guys, there were some users in the german version of this article that were trying to manipulate the article for quite some time. for instance changing the tone, the sub-meanings, exchanging words, using euphemisms, you name it, the complete programme. for those of you who are able to read german (or are willing to use some translating-app), please check out these news pieces [1][2] or the Talk/Discussion-page. I think that it is quite likely that they (whoever they are) will try to manipulate / influence this article as well, so we should be carefully looking into every edit. --LH7605 (talk) 15:48, 8 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

not only us-related articles

The german version of the article has a list of more than sixty stories fabricated by Relotius, and it is important to see how he worked. He got some information about a part of the world where it would be difficult or expensive to do research. Then he wrote an article in accordance to mainstream prejudices. Not necessarily about the USA, but some blatant lies about the war in Syria, Albanian blood-feuds etc. Basically, Relotious is a story-writer, not a journalist (nice version, could also call him a pathological liar.) 185.109.153.2 (talk) 09:45, 21 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Good point. The German Wikipedia article de:Claas Relotius#Textübersicht lists Relotius texts about events in the following countries, in order: Der Spiegel: USA, Romania, USA, UK, Germany, Kiribati, USA / Mexico, Germany (Lafrenz interview), Germany, Mediterranean Sea, Syria, USA, Germany, USA, USA, USA (Fergus Falls), USA / Germany (Dortmund), Syria, USA (Guantanamo), Germany, Germany, Germany, USA, ? (Delpy interview), USA (Hamermesh interview), Mexico / USA, Canada, Kurdistan, USA. NZZ: Colombia, Finland. Weltwoche: USA, Netherlands, Syria. SZ-Magazin: Two interviews, both in the US. FASZ: Mexico / USA, North Korea, South Africa. – In summary: Yes, there are a lot of articles / interviews about US-related subjects, but they're not the majority. Also, the list of Spiegel articles is not complete. I didn't count countries in the full list, but I think the results should be similar. Probably even lower percentage of US-related articles, but I'm not sure. — Chrisahn (talk) 20:28, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Anti-American

The article says he is anti-American. May I add him to such a category?MagicatthemovieS (talk) 14:57, 21 October 2024 (UTC)MagicatthemovieS[reply]

Thanks for starting the discussion. No, the article doesn't say that. The article says that two people, namely Richard Grenell and James Kirchick, accused Der Spiegel of anti-Americanism. That's their opinion. And if you read what they wrote back then, you'll find that they didn't actually say that Relotius himself was anti-American. They didn't really focus on him, they rather interpreted his misdeeds as a symptom of the Spiegel's (or Germany's, or even Europe's) anti-Americanism. (I'm a bit busy at the moment, I'll add more details tomorrow.) — Chrisahn (talk) 23:51, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

More details: In general, see e.g. WP:WIKIVOICE: "Avoid stating opinions as facts." That's why our article must not say "Relotius is anti-American". – Even more details (too many, I guess): The first person the article quotes is Richard Grenell. From the lead of that article: "His tenure in Germany was controversial and he was described as politically and diplomatically isolated due to his association with the far right and a perceived lack of professionalism." It's OK that our Relotius article quotes Grenell, since he was US ambassador in Germany at the time and thus relevant. But he's far from neutral – one more reason not to state his opinion as fact. – The other person quoted in the article is James Kirchick. Although his article says he "has been described as a conservative or neoconservative", he can probably be considered more neutral than Grenell, e.g. he's very critical of Trump. But Kirchick has a history of accusing Europeans in general (and some Americans) of anti-Americanism, e.g. here and here, and of course in his article about the Relotius affair and its background as he sees it. I'm not saying he's wrong, but I get the impression that his sensitivities in this regard may be a bit exaggerated. For example, he cites this Spiegel editorial by then editor-in-chief Klaus Brinkbäumer as an example for the magazine's alleged anti-Americanism, although the editorial is anti-Trump, not anti-American: it explicitly says "triumphant anti-Americanism is just as dangerous as defiance", and that it's "sad and absurd" that "resistance against America" may be necessary to protect Europe against Trump's aggressive and dangerous policies. It looks like Kirchick misunderstood the editorial. – In conclusion: It's OK that our article quotes Grenell's and Kirchick's opinions, but of course we must not present their opinions as fact in any way. — Chrisahn (talk) 19:27, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]