Talk:Christian pacifism

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This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Tyler Chinappi. Peer reviewers: Petra Sen, Arapisar33.

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Preventing the Death Penalty When a Woman was Caught in Adultery John 8

Could this be interpreted as pacifism? I got this from http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+8%3A1-11&version=NIV If this has violated any copyrights, I apologize

John 8:1-11

New International Version (NIV)

8 1 but Jesus went to the Mount of Olives.

2 At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4 and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?” 6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”

11 “No one, sir,” she said.

“Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.” 98.228.223.184 (talk) 18:13, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

That passage is generally recognized as being spurious, as it does not appear in any early Greek manuscripts of John. Allegro ma non troppo (talk) 21:23, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

The Fruits of the Spirit as an argument for peace

New International Version (©1984) Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

Could this work? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.200.55.158 (talk) 19:31, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

The Golden Rule

"Do unto others as you would have them done unto you."

I think people don't want war done to themselves, so why commit acts of war unto others?

As a concession, i was arguing more off of the silver rule: do not do unto others... However, the point is still the same. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.228.223.184 (talk) 18:00, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Jesus as the Prince of Peace

Isaiah 9:6

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 

Could this work? 98.228.223.184 (talk) 18:03, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Jehovah's Witnesses--Why were they deleted from this article?

I noticed in the history that this article formerly had a section on the pacifism of the Jehovah's Witnesses. Why was that removed? The Jehovah's Witnesses self-identify as Christian. They base their religion on the Christian Bible. They are a fairly well-known group. Their condemnation of World War One lead to the imprisonment of their leaders. There are 6 to 7 million Jehovah's Witnesses in the world, far more than the 50,000 or so Christadelphians (who are included in this article). And their refusal to serve in the military is well-known. Should there be a mention of the Jehovah's Witnesses in this article?Credidimus2 (talk) 21:09, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

Vietnam War

1) Were there many Christian pacifists demonstrating against the Vietnam War?

2) Considering our current climate of world terrorism, are there examples of Christian pacifism in fighting the war on terror? Tyler Chinappi (talk) 23:35, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

Ben Salmon - WWI pacifist

I am working on adding more to the section World War I as it pertains to Ben Salmon since there is more to his story that could be relevant to the article. The article already listed the Nation Catholic Reporter (38) as a source, so I would like to use more facts from that source to add to the section.Tyler Chinappi (talk) 22:01, 10 October 2016 (UTC)

corrected my source citation from my previous addition to the Old Testament section

I updated my source for citation since making the error of citing an incorrect source. Sorry for the mistake.Tyler Chinappi (talk) 18:23, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

Ideas for adding to the article's Old Testament section

After reviewing the article on Christian Pacifism, it seems as if it not only contains a ton of lengthy quotes, but there is a need for more substance behind those quotes. Since the section on The Old Testament appears first, and I feel it lays the foundation for the article, I plan to add some research regarding the Old Testament perspective on war. The roots of Christian pacifism lie within the Old Testament, but since wars did take place during that time, it is important to discuss the purpose behind the wars in ancient Israel. Below are some of the research sources I have found and potentially might use.

Works Cited Clements, R. E. The World of Ancient Israel: Sociological, Anthropological, and Political Perspectives. Cambridge: Cambridge UP, 1989. Print. Craigie, Peter C. The Problem of War in the Old Testament. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1978. Print. Hobbs, T. R. A Time for War: A Study of Warfare in the Old Testament. Wilmington, DE: M. Glazier, 1989. Print. Holmes, Arthur F. War and Christian Ethics: Classic and Contemporary Readings on the Morality of War. 2nd ed. Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Academic, 2005. Print. Lind, Millard C. Yahweh Is a Warrior: The Theology of Warfare in Ancient Israel. 1st ed. Scottdale, PA: Herald, 2001. Print. Miller, Patrick D. The Divine Warrior in Early Israel. Atlanta: Society of Biblical Literature, 2006. Print.Tyler Chinappi (talk) 01:11, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

Christian Pacifism article

I think your article is very good, however it says at the top that it contains too many source quotations and for those to be limited. Other than that I think you have a lot of good detail about Christian pacifism!

Old testament edits

User:Tyler Chinappi a bunch of your edits are confessional, not encyclopedic. am going to go through and make this NPOV. Jytdog (talk) 23:13, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

I am a student in college, and this is for my Contemporary Christian Ethics class, so I am working on improving it daily until the assignment is complete. Please be patient. This is my first time publishing on Wikipedia, and we are required to do certain things such as move drafts to the mainspace, even though we are still working on editing them. I am fine tuning and trying to get my section more neutral, and have asked for help from the Wiki editor assigned to my class.Tyler Chinappi (talk) 23:19, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

you are editing in mainspace. You do not, and cannot, own this article. I am going to make changes. If you want to work in a space that is all your own, you can work in a WP:SANDBOX. Jytdog (talk) 23:37, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

I completely understand. I have been drafting in MY SANDBOX, but the classroom assignment required us to move our draft into the main article by Friday. That is all. The assignment is still ongoing for two weeks, while we continue to do final edits and make it as Wikipedia-like as possible. I fully understand that I do not own the article, and I am certainly not trying to. I welcome advice, changes and corrections since I am completely new to this experience. I am constantly reviewing my contribution to make it meet all of the Wikipedia requirements. No need to get upset.Tyler Chinappi (talk) 00:32, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

neither your motivation nor mine matter; your schedule doesn't matter. Please stop discussing that stuff. you are just another WP editor, just like me. Jytdog (talk) 01:49, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

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Pic of pacifist soldiers

The image & caption in question: The soldiers of the red Army in Russia, who on religious grounds refused to shoot at the target (evangelicals or Baptists). Between 1918 and 1929

Walter Görlitz deleted from the article the image of Russian soldiers - Christian pacifists, who refused to shoot at targets. He said "Refusing to follow orders is not the same as pacifism" and "Not what the caption reads. They're Red Army who disobeyed orders. Feel free to discuss on the article's talk page"

This illustration is from anti-Christian Communist book, written in 1929. The picture is shown in the book as an example of Christian pacifism, and not just the rejection of the order. The fact that they refused to shoot out of religious pacifist convictions follows from the context. Download the book at this link. The photo is on page 46. The book is in Russian.--LukaE (talk) 06:26, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

These guys are true Christian heroes, they were not afraid of death, but stood for Christ at the cost of their lives--LukaE (talk) 13:33, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

I'm not doubting that they were heroes, but 1) being in the Red Army means that they were not pacifists and 2) there's no indication that they were acting out of a sense of pacifism; they simply disobeyed orders to kill others for their faith. There are a few other issues but it is enough to know that they're Red Army who disobeyed orders and there's no indication that they are pacifists. Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:45, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

To clarify, if they were doing so for reasons of conscience, that doesn't make them pacifists. Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:55, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

I am inclined to agree with Walter that, though perhaps illustrating a refusal to participate in one particular act of violence, the image does not seem to illustrate the belief that "any form of violence is incompatible with the Christian faith," as the article's lede defines the subject. Not all images need to show total renunciation of violence, but the military uniforms seem to indicate that they had not given up violence entirely. Unless it can be shown that the incident later inspired the soldiers to give up the use of force entirely, it should be left out. MarginalCost (talk) 17:32, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

In Russia at that time there was a universal military duty. The young man could not refuse the military service. Even if he's a pacifist. He was forcibly taken away, put on a military uniform and forced to serve. In the case of pacifists, this led to problems. Some of them were executed because they were in the army refused to shoot.--LukaE (talk) 23:22, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

It's my understanding that many Anabaptists were exempted.

Regardless, do we know that these soldiers were actually pacifists or simply conscientiously refused the order? Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:58, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

In 1919, Lenin, flirting with Russian Protestants, signed the law on alternative military service. But in practice the law almost did not work. Several hundred people across the country were able to use it. Moreover, there were cases when Christians were shot for trying to use this law. This decision was made by the authorities in the regions.

Among Russian Baptists (not Anabaptists, but Baptists) there were many pacifists. This was one of the reasons for their persecution by the Communists. In the book, where this illustration is taken from, Christian pacifism is condemned. And this picture is given as a negative example of pacifism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LukaE (talk • contribs) 00:22, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Many good books on the history of Russian baptism have been published in English.--LukaE (talk) 00:29, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

The caption for this photo says they refused to shoot for religious reasons.--LukaE (talk) 00:38, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

But without knowing the "religious reasons", we can't assume it was a peace position. WP:NOR and all that. Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:40, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

In that section of the book we are talking about pacifism and this picture illustrates Christian pacifism--LukaE (talk) 00:56, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

@LukaE: I realize this is frustrating for you, but I think it's a fair assumption that most of us can't read Russian, so we don't have much to work from here. I don't agree with Walter Görlitz that the fact that they're wearing military uniforms in an era of conscription means they're not pacifists. However, I do agree that the burden here is on you to find a quote for us from a reliable source indicating that these particular people were opposed to all violence, and were not merely concerned with particular Russian leaders, policies, or actions. Perhaps you can translate a relevant quote for us. Daask (talk) 04:42, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

@Daask: I think I didn't make my point well. The most prominent Christian pacifists of that time in that location were the Russian Mennonites and they were exempt from conscription. Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:31, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

@Daask: A few words about the context. I specialize in the history of evangelism and Baptist in Russia. Most Evangelical Christians and Baptists of Russia did not refuse to carry arms in the hands of military service during the First World War. But some refused because they were religious pacifists. Some of them were executed.

The results of the First World War, the ensuing Civil War and the two revolutions were so terrible for Russia that in 1920 evangelical Christians and Baptists at the general congress adopted a religious dogma that forbids all Evangelical Christians and Baptists to serve with weapons in their hands. This dogma was not a political gesture against the new communist government. He had only a religious basis.

Now about the book, where this picture comes from. They are called "The Political Role of Sectarianism". The book is published by an official communist anti-religious organization. This is the first book of Fyodor Putintsev, later he became a famous scholar of religion and a professional anti-religious propagandist. The purpose of this book is to distort facts and prove that religious minorities in Russia were political opponents of the Communists.

In the part of the book, where the picture is taken, refers to the pacifism of Russian Evangelical Christians and Baptists. The caption under the photo reads (exactly):"Red army-sectarians who refused to shoot at targets for religious reasons."

The peculiarity of the layout of this book is that the photos were inserted exactly in those places of the text that the author needed to be illustrated. A piece of text, which is inserted in this photograph reads as follows:

(... like the Mennonites ...) "The leaders of the Evangelists and Baptists did the same. In the address of the Soviet authorities, they said that they can not serve in the Red Army, because it is supposedly a sin. However, they served excellently in the tsarist army, and later did not refuse to shoot the Red soldiers after the First World War. The best proof is the figures. During the entire reign of Tsar Nicholas the Bloody (the last Russian emperor - LukaE note) and the conduct of the imperialist war, only more than 500 people refused military service on religious grounds. Under the Soviet government, only two years (1921 and 1922) in the Kiev and Minsk provinces, more than a thousand people refused military service on religious grounds.

Their dogma was printed before the revolution and reprinted in 1918. It says: "We believe that the tsarist government, like during the New Testament, does not in vain carry a sword. The government has the right and duty under God's law to punish death and use the sword against the enemies of the country." Therefore, the Baptists said: "We are obliged to perform military service if the government so demands." The Soviet government demanded that Baptists and Evangelists serve in the Red Army. But the congress of sectarians in 1920 refused. Only in 1926 congresses of Baptists and Evangelicals recognized the compulsory military service. "

If necessary, I can provide an electronic copy of this book.--LukaE (talk) 06:10, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

Cleansing of the Temple

Should there be a section that discusses how Christian pacifists reconcile with the cleansing of the Temple? Whether or not they consider it a violent act? 2600:4040:9759:4000:48C1:2D73:428A:9F71 (talk) 05:32, 17 October 2023 (UTC)