Talk:Cardinal of Portugal's Altarpiece

Provenance

@DilletantiAnonymous: From what I can understand of the Italian article, this painting was not entirely the work of Antonio del Pollaiolo, with at least parts of it being attributed to his brother Piero. Do you have any more information you could add about the provenance of the painting? (I notice that the Commons category for this work lists both Antonio and Piero as the creators.) – Lord Bolingbroke (talk) 04:16, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Name

I suppose the correct title to this article is "Cardinal of Portugal Altarpiece", since you translated "cardinale" and "pala". "Del Portogallo" in Italian means "from Portugal". JMdosPerais 06:17, 24 June 2020 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by GualdimG (talk • contribs)

Changed. Johnbod (talk) 02:10, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 22:03, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

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• Comment or view
• Article history

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Cardinal of Portugal's altarpiece

• ... that the Cardinal of Portugal's altarpiece of c. 1466 has always been in Florence? Source: coming
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Agreement on Textiles and Clothing
  • Comment: working on better hook....

5x expanded by Johnbod (talk). Self-nominated at 03:19, 18 July 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Cardinal of Portugal's altarpiece; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

• Currently reviewing. el.ziade (talkallam) 16:30, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
  • Thanks! I hope to have a better hook within 24 hours. Johnbod (talk) 16:56, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

• I went over the sources, everything checks out. The article is interesting, neutral and copyvio-free, the used image is clear and free. I thought maybe the following suggestions could be helpful for coming up with or choosing a hook.

Did you know that the Altarpiece for the Cardinal of Portugal's chapel, painted by Antonio and Piero del Pollaiuolo in c. 1466, features early Italian landscapes influenced by Early Netherlandish painting?

... that the Altarpiece for the Cardinal of Portugal's chapel, now in the Uffizi Gallery, uses linseed oil in its painting technique, a relatively uncommon method in Italy during its creation?

That the Altarpiece for the Cardinal of Portugal's chapel showcases a collaborative effort between Antonio and Piero del Pollaiuolo, but recent re-attributions by art historians raise questions about the true authorship?

... that the Altarpiece for the Cardinal of Portugal's chapel, painted by Antonio and Piero del Pollaiuolo, depicts Saints Vincent, James the Great, and Eustace, all clothed in rich and fashionable attire?

... that the Altarpiece for the Cardinal of Portugal's chapel, created for the funerary chapel of Cardinal James of Portugal, features an intricate gilded wood frame by Giuliano da Maiano? el.ziade (talkallam) 07:29, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

• Ok, sorry again for the delay (I'm having trouble getting on to JSTOR, part of the reason, also just a busy time). How about (links & refs to be added):
• ALT1 ... that the Cardinal of Portugal's altarpiece commemorates a prince who fought in a battle at 14 and died at 25? (battle needs adding to text)
• ALT2 ... that the Cardinal of Portugal's altarpiece was largely paid for by his aunt, the Duchess of Burgundy, and the landscape reflects influence from Early Netherlandish painting?
• ALT3 ... that influences on the Cardinal of Portugal's altarpiece include both Early Christian mosaics from Ravenna and contemporary Early Netherlandish painting?
• What do you think of these? Johnbod (talk) 03:18, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: Interesting:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: Thanks for the hooks! We can't use the first alternative if its not substantiated in the article. You didn't provide sources for the other so I will do it for you. ALT2 is supported by (Richardson, 459-460)(Koch, 527)(Ames-Lewis, 199–202, 201). ALT3 (Koch, 551,527)(Ames-Lewis, 199–202, 201). Do you still want to work on ALT1 and add the battles part to the article? el.ziade (talkallam) 20:31, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

• Sorry again for the delay. This source covers his capture in the battle (much more on the preceding pages), & I've added to the text. So ALT1 is now covered - I think this is the best. Johnbod (talk) 04:34, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

• Everything checks out now, save a qpq review. Thanks Johnbod. el.ziade (talkallam) 08:45, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
  • el.ziade, is there a problem with the QPQ review linked to at the top of this nomination (Template:Did you know nominations/Agreement on Textiles and Clothing)? I've struck the original hook; please specifically confirm, when you're ready to approve this nomination, which hooks you're approving. Thank you very much. BlueMoonset (talk) 22:22, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
    • Sorry I completely missed it. I’m more inclined to the third hook. ALT2 also works. Everything checks out then.el.ziade (talkallam) 22:31, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Capitalization

@Johnbod: You might be better versed than me on this matter, but I feel that "altarpiece" in the title of the artwork ought to be capitalized, according to MOS:TITLECAPS. Would that be incorrect in this case? — RAVENPVFF · talk · 10:38, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Ordinarily I would agree, & would have made it so, but in this case the name seems rather informal and popular, with many variants. I looked at uses in sources & google & decided not to cap, but I don't feel strongly. Johnbod (talk) 12:08, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

@Johnbod: If it's informal, I think there's a good case that it shouldn't be italicized, as it's a name and not a title (MOS:VATITLE). I've just done so in the article, but feel free to disagree! Thanks — RAVENPVFF · talk · 12:02, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

It's an unclear area, but I think a painting should have a title, and many names like Rokeby Venus, not to mention Mona Lisa, that are clearly from much later are treated as titles. Johnbod (talk) 14:03, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Altarpiece for the Cardinal of Portugal's Chapel would be a way to sidestep the capitalisation issue in the article title, because while it would treat "Cardinal of Portugal's Chapel" as a proper name (cf. Brancacci Chapel, Chigi Chapel, Medici Chapel...) it would allow the full phrase to be interpreted either as a name or as a title. The use or not of italics, and also the capitalisation in running text, would rather give the game away, though.

With altarpieces we do often have descriptive names treated as italicised titles: Ghent Altarpiece, Polyptych of the Misericordia (Piero della Francesca), Altarpiece of the Holy Sacrament. But we also have no italics at Wilton Diptych, Polyptych of Perugia and others, and mixed usage at Tauberbischofsheim Altarpiece, Frari Triptych and others. Ham II (talk) 19:32, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Altarpiece for the Cardinal of Portugal's Chapel is possible - "Cardinal of Portugal's Chapel" is standard in sources, and certainly a proper name, but I must say I don't like it. I see no reason why Wilton Diptych and probably Polyptych of Perugia and Tauberbischofsheim Altarpiece should not be capitalized - the last is inconsistent between article title and text. I'm a bit unsure Polyptych of Perugia actually is the best title in English - do sources use it? Johnbod (talk) 00:25, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

I take it you mean italicised as well capitalised? I would be happy for us to treat that kind of construction as indicating a title rather than a name: Wilton Diptych and Tauberbischofsheim Altarpiece, like Benois Madonna or Arnolfini Portrait. For this work, that would make the article title either Cardinal of Portugal's Altarpiece or Altarpiece for the Cardinal of Portugal's Chapel. Ham II (talk) 06:47, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Gone with the first - done. Redirected the other. Thanks both. Johnbod (talk) 13:32, 15 September 2023 (UTC)