Talk:Caia Park

Queens Park and Caia Park

An IP editor has added the following comment in the article text, following the text The Queen's Park estate was renamed Caia Park in the 1980s in an attempt to give it a fresh image.

(This is not correct, the name was of the estate not changed in 1980s.Although there was a very brief period 1969 after Mayo Book when name of Queens Park was dropped. BBC were wrong. <ref> No source for something that did not happen -A Taylor Clerk to Caia Park Community Council 1985 -1993</ref>)

Firstly, comments like this should be made on this talk page, not in the article text.

The BBC source[1] is clear about the change of name, but it is possible that they got it wrong. We have no way of knowing whether this comment was actually left by 'A Taylor Clerk to Caia Park Community Council 1985 -1993'. We should not allow content to be added on the basis of unsubstantiated comments, but in the case of a challenge to a statement in the article it is reasonable to take anonymous comments into account. A brief Google search has not confirmed the BBC statement, and I propose to remove the statement about the renaming until the situation become clearer.

The article is unclear about the relationship between Queens Park and Caia Park. Is Queens Park another name for Caia Park, or is one a part of the other? If the name was changed then when and why? Verbcatcher (talk) 07:10, 12 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The IP commenter was being slightly misleading. It may not have happened while they were clerk but they did rename the estate and did so as the previous name had become stigmatised.

Local organisation 'the Venture' also confirms this on their site. https://www.theventurewrexham.com/history - this organisation is one which has been credited for turning the estate around in the past (see https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2000/jul/04/ukcrime.drugsandalcohol).Svejk74 (talk) 06:22, 13 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I am Alec Taylor and I was the very First Clerk Of Caia Park Community Council when it was according to one leading local government advisor to the Wales Association of Town and Community Councils "The most exciting thing to happen in Welsh local government in 30 years" I did contribute to correct an error but you seem to doubt both my contribution and my existence. I thought I was helping but apparently not. Any history has to be in this Talk section because no doubt you will want a source for every dot and comma and the cup of tea I'm drinking whilst writing this. Its rather odd that if I quoted from a published book of lies it is a more acceptable source than anyone like myself who have knowledge of things because of years of experience who have not on any occasion encountered anyone who might want to write a book that could be used as a source on Wikipedia. Such thoughts have influenced the tone of this contribution which does not qualify because I do not have a Book Of Lies to quote from. Having said that I do not intend or wish to offend anyone. The Book Of Lies is mentioned to illustrate a point of view.

There are elements of strong opinion here, but historical references are correct. I am tired of the trend of writing to fit a particular narrative. I regret the passing of many Councillors it was my privilege to know and work with, who regardless of their politics put service to their people first. Unfortunately the narrative of National Politics has, so to speak, poisoned the local well with the gutter press adding their tons of pollution to the mix. Why is it that anyone who writes about Queens Park, or Caia Park always starts with its so called bad reputation - the stigma. Initially starting in the 1850s with anti catholic/ anti Irish sentiments- trying to denigrate the population who lived in parts of Wrexham where the original population of spring Lodge came from as a part of a slum clearance program in the early 1930s - a plan that had been mentioned in the 1917 Wrexham and District Trades Council Handbook. In the 1850s Wrexham's local Businesses strenuously defended the people who were being demonised, people who were there their neighbours, their employees, - the Friends of Stantsy were very active on this issue.

Wrexham Town has a history to be proud of. Wrexham Borough Council was a leading innovator in Local Govt for over 100 years - the evidence there if you look. Anyone Know about Thomas Henry the Wrexham Chemist ask the Manchester Literary and and Philsosphical Society Henry assisted Joseph Priestley in the discovery of Oxygen, first person to produce carbinated water, campaigned for technical colleges for working men, against slavery 1st person to be inducted into both the Royal Society and the American equivalent - being proposed by Benjamin Franklin on the latter Occasion. The Hilditch Sister of 25 Kings Street one deaf and dumb- praised by William Garrison a leading anti slavery campaigner -there's more - what has this to do with Caia Park - well they are, among other notable person who lived and worked amongst the people that were Great Grandparents, Grandparents and Parents of the people who were the first residents of Spring Lodge. Those people were as much a part of what Wrexham was all about the good things about Wrexham as much as any famed individual. Caia Park? Queens Park? essentially like Rhosddu, Acton and Offa, they are WREXHAM. Anyone who wishes to persist in denigrating the people of ANY part of Wrexham are insulting the memory of all those who worked so hard through 2 centuries (especially pre 1974) to serve and defend its residents regardless of status. Yes Times have changed - very few businesses in Wrexham Town Centre are owned locally and the bigger companies have minimal involvement in the local community and nothing in comparison to the close relationship that local tradesmen, shopkeepers etc had with the town's residents.

The Venture oh yes I remember Malcolm King when I first met him he was trying to start a Community Newspaper for Plas Madoc - Yes The Venture has Achieved a lot. There was some stirling work carried out by Phil Webb and his colleagues when the Queens Park Youth Club was up and running- yes it was still Queens Park Youth Club in the early 1990s. Lot of work was done by the 3 Churches - where Rev Gerald Griffiths and Father Eccleshare deserve special mention. The Pentre Gwyn Community Assoc that worked tirelessly to raise money to build a Community Centre. Spring Lodge Tenants Association. Arfon Tenants Association. Smithfield Residents Association which I believe is still active to this day - must be one of the oldest organisations of this kind in Wrexham. Not to forget the Queens Park Tenants Association in 1972-1973 with 3000 paying members with its unique system of area committees some who transformed into various community organisations whose legacies are evident to the present day. (I was its secretary- had a front page article of praise in The Wrexham Gazette when I resigned in 1973 not sure where I might find archives for the Wrexham Gazette.

Caia Park was not intended to be an alternate name to Queens Park. Council Housing management was conducted by 2 offices the Spring Lodge Estate Office and the Arfon Estate Office, being replaced by the Caia Park Estate office in 2005 none of those names can be said to indicate a change of name for the Queens Park. Caia Park "Estate" Office as it is termed also covers Whitegate, Smithfield and parts of Rhosnessni (Fenwick Drive Area) as well as Queens Park. Why the opening of some local government office run by people who do not live in an area is used as some kind of act or indicator to rename an area makes no sense. Queens Park is a collection of neighbourhoods: Spring Lodge, Kingsley Circle Y Wern, Gwenfro Glan Gors, Coed Aben, Cefn Y Dre etc and people identify with these neighbourhood as well as Queens Park

There is and has never been such a place as Caia Park Estate it is just the name of an Office the Council administer parts of there housing management from. Caia Park is not Queens Park though some in the media present it as such. There is a Video on You Tube called Murder Town about the murder of the former owner of a wine bar in Rossett - much of it covered the reputation of the area and how it had changed its name from Queens Park to Caia Park - there was one problem with their interpretation - the Murder had been committed in the Smithfield Area. Actually the part of Smithfield furthest away from Queens Park - why? probably to do with the trend in recent years of stigmatising Council and Social Housing Tenants - a UK wide problem.

The BBC (who in North Wales are often referred to as CBBC (Cardiff Bay Broadcasting Corporation) and much of the press nearly always get the history of Queens Park Caia Park wrong. The BBC especially get things wrong because news from North Wales especially North East Wales is severely lacking

The origins of slurring the reputation of the people of Caia Park actually goes back as far as the 1850s if someone was up to genuine research on that you will find that info and through the to 1954(1953) years when Councillor Eric McMahons challenge to Fenwick Palmer over naming Hafod Y Wern school after a sewage farm. The Mayo book incident was an example how, regardless of political affiliation every single Councillor defended the population of Queens Park in the same way as the old Wrexham Borough Council always sprung to the defence of its population. They for a time replaced reference to Queens Park with Wrexham saying to critics you offend the people of Queens Park you offend the people of Wrexham. When they dropped the name of Queens Park in this manner they declared solidarity with its people.

The classification of Caia Park (meaning Queens Park) since the early 2000s has been based on the interpretation of statistics using American methods - which basically promotes a "loser" "blame the victim" culture in local and central government. In Britain its more sophisticated than in America, because America has never had a Welfare State. Given my current situation statistically I am a hardened criminal - statistics should be taken as a snap shop of the area it covers to assist local and central government in deciding priorities not as method to label people and demean their reputations. The attempted stigmatization of Queens Park began before the 1st brick was laid in Spring Lodge with there being outraged comments about the very idea of providing inside toilets and bathrooms for people of the lower classes.

Will it there surprised how much I have written. Thank yo for you time and patience if you have read all I have written. 80.46.220.126 (talk) 07:57, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Queens Park and Caia Park