Talk:Buttermilk

Prevalence of cultured buttermilk

>Traditional buttermilk is still common in many Arabic, Indian, Nepalese, Pakistani, Finnish, Polish, and Dutch households, but rarely found in other Western countries.

Really? I can only speak for Germany, but with the addition of Poland, Finland and the Netherlands, I would assume that traditional buttermilk is widely used in Europe, so the 'Western countries' that use mainly cultured buttermilk (which is available here, but under the name 'Dickmilch') are most likely just North America — Preceding unsigned comment added by The Elbinho (talk • contribs) 21:36, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

colder climates

>colder climates such as Germany, Poland, Scandinavia and the Netherlands. Germany, Poland and the Netherlands? dude are you trippin? These countries are temperate climates, with hot summer and cold winter. Colder climates are scandinavia, northern Russia and Canada. 178.5.122.154 (talk) 15:45, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Coolant

"Coolant" brings to mind images of industrial coolant. Perhaps this should be changed. --Arash Keshmirian 04:56, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Buttermilk

It's easy to find whole-fat buttermilk anywhere, even the Pacific Northwest. In a very clean sealable container, mix one cup cultured buttermilk and one quart whole milk. Seal, and set aside in a warm place for twelve to twenty four hours. You now have five cups of whole-fat buttermilk. -- Warren Paprocki (—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.82.9.79 (talk • contribs) 01:20, 14 March 2006 (UTC))

Hey - it might be easy in the US, but remember that there are other countries and people on this planet, and buttermilk is not that easy to find in many of them. Milk plus lemon juice is the closest you can get in a lot of places, and takes five minutes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.229.144.140 (talk) 09:07, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Hey - the Pacific Northwest includes a big chunk Canada. Canada is that big country to the north of the US. Follow me so far? Be sure you have your own geography straight before criticizing other people. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.32.34.229 (talk) 14:58, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

To be fair - I'm from the Cdn 'Pacific Northwest' and that term is much more common in the US - in Canada, the 'north' part isn't necessary, usually we just say BC, or, the west, or the west coast. Combine that with your use of imperial measurements and it's reasonable to see why someone thought you were referring to part of the US. Regardless, even if you're including BC, and possibly the Yukon, this is a small part of the overall world and it may well be true that buttermilk is hard to find in many places. Let's all try to be a little less, dare I say, provincial. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.190.183.214 (talk) 16:44, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Unclear or incorrect sentence:

"For breads made solely with grains, buttermilk may contain amounts of calcium from its dairy products, such as nonfat dry-milk powder."

This sentence, found at the end of the first paragraph, doesn't make sense. Read it a few times: the phrase before the first comma has nothing to do with anything, and the rest of the sentence doesn't work either. I don't know what it's supposed to mean, but it needs to be re-phrased so that it means something.

I also second the above comment - is "coolant" supposed to mean that people drink buttermilk to stay cool, the way Americans drink lemonade?

--PeaceLoveMath 23:15, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that sentence does need work. This one does as well:

"The sour taste, or tartness of 'cultured buttermilk' is owing to the fermentation process, which, for buttermilk, begins with a commercial product of buttermilk which has become chemically active, or rather fermented."

I really don't know quite what this is trying to say either. How does the fermentation of buttermilk start with "a commercial product of buttermilk"? Besides that, the sentence is awkwardly structured overall. I'm going to add a cleanup tag to this article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.220.124.60 (talk • contribs) 16:08, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

The article gave me pause when it mentioned streptococcus. The confusion lies in the link provided. The link does not make it clear that streptococcus "thermophilius" is the active agent and not the pathenogenic varieties listed in the link given. Here is a link> http://biology.clc.uc.edu/fankhauser/Cheese/BUTTERMILK.HTM <to the process describiing the use of a manufactured butter milk as a "starter and a link to a description of streptococcus thermophilius here> http://www.ebi.ac.uk/2can/genomes/genomes.html?http://www.ebi.ac.uk/2can/genomes/bacteria/Streptococcus_thermophilus.html <. Hope this is helpful. Chuck Baux CEC, CCE

I should have noted that some years ago the name streptococcus thermophilius was thought to be easily confused and Lactococcus thermophilius is now in use as well. I should add that I am a first time contributor and hope someone will put this all in the correct form/edit. TY 151.201.121.90CB

""The bacterium specie Streptococcus lactis has been renamed to Lactococcus lactis. Only this name should be use. Futhermore only Streptococcus thermophilus should be use and not Lactococcus thermophilius. Links: and ""82.230.21.65 (talk) 16:25, 16 December 2013 (UTC)NAL

Fixed. Icarus of old (talk) 16:29, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

References

Objection!

"Still, many people enjoy cultured buttermilk as part of a health-conscious diet, particularly in Germany. It is consumed daily by the majority of people in southern India. In both countries, the product is known as aryanfeuden." No, it isn't. Not in Germany at least. The German word is Buttermilch; I never heard anything like "aryanfeuden" in my whole life. And seriously, I cannot imagine that a word like this could be in use anywhere in Germany, considering the "aryan" part, and considering that "feuden" is no German word at all. This wiki page is the only thing that shows up in the Google search results for the term, so I doubt this word is in use anywhere, be it Germany or India or anything else. Are there any reasons why the last sentence should not be removed? I suspect it to be complete nonsense. --217.226.210.26 23:42, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Picture

How about a picture of actual buttermilk, not buttermilk scones? A person coming to this page and seeing the picture would have the impression from the start that buttermilk is a scone-type object. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.116.162.162 (talk) 17:17, 11 September 2007

(UTC)

I think the photo could be better. The shot in front of the computer is really lame. Maybe a photo of a carton or jug of buttermilk or a photo of something traditionally relating to buttermilk? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.80.223.85 (talk) 20:20, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

But I took that photo :( —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.165.60.219 (talk) 20:39, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Cleaning up the article

I think the article needed a serious facelift. The copy was largely inarticulate, and many of the same ideas were repeated or conveyed more than once. Specifically, the "buttermilk summary" was not necessary, as it simply mentioned the same information, again, that had been mentioned in the article. Furthermore, a table isn't necessary when comparing only two different things.

I also removed the excessive quote from the references. I cleared up some ideas, and added information about butter flecks being added.

I was sorry that the information about buttermilk as a beverage in places like India had been removed in earlier edits; perhaps someone who can cite accurate referenes can articulately put that information back in at some point?  :) -RJSampson

Some comments about your edits:

• There is an article that compares the different fermented milk products, and the wikilink was in this article until you removed it. It may be best to include comparisons with other country's variants there. Otherwise product comparisons will end up being spread over several articles -- many countries have a product similar to buttermilk, but with a different name. Another alternative is to create a template with all of the different fermented milk products and add it to all of the relevant articles. I'll probably implement that.
• There are indeed two different products called buttermilk: traditional buttermilk and cultured buttermilk. When "buttermilk" is cited in a recipe today, it generally refers to cultured buttermilk. So the text, which you removed, stating that it refers to two different products is correct.
• The current text confuses the two different products. It first talks about traditional buttermilk then states "This is the result of fermentation by naturally occurring or added lactic acid bacteria." Traditional buttermilk doesn't have bacteria added to it AFAIK. Then it starts talking about cultured buttermilk and returns to the description of traditional buttermilk. Cultured buttermilk has nothing to do with the churning process.
• The table was added because another editor confused the two different types of buttermilk. So it's not obvious which is which and should be re-add it. From your edits, it appears that you've also confused the two products.
• There's also some errors in the text now:

• "This is milk to which lactic acid bacteria have been added to simulate the naturally occurring bacteria and fungi found in the traditional product." Fungi and bacteria are not the same thing and if you state that "lactic acid bacteria" have been added, then fungi have not been added and it is not to simulate naturally occurring fungi in the product.
• "The whole milk from which cream is skimmed to produce traditional buttermilk was typically left to sit, during which time it acquired these microorganisms from the environment." The naturally occurring bacteria in the milk cause the milk to sour, not "microorganisms from the environment".

I would like to revert your edit instead of reorganizing only because there is so much that needs to be fixed. Please don't take it personally. But the previous text could use some editing, of course, to reduce the redundancy.

–panda 15:45, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi Panda,

I appreciate your input and certainly don't take any of it personally. This is the process by which articles are improved, and I welcome your feedback! You bring up a couple of good points:

Indeed, I agree that my revision added some confusion to the distinction between cultured and traditional buttermilk. I agree that your version made the distinction more clear, and mine should have done the same. I have re-written the article somewhat to make sure that this is clearly stated throughout the article.

Another thing you point out which I added was with regards to the fungi. As you said, bacteria and fungi are very different organisms. I will say, however, that in traditional buttermilk, fungi is indeed present (usuall) and active but it only produces a negligible, if any, amount of lactic acid (and only as an intermediate compound within numerous, complex metabolic pathways). An interesting fact, however, is that it does produce other fermentation products (like diacetyl, alcohols, ketones, and other organic compounds) which adds a complexity to the flavor to natural buttermilk that many purists prize. Granted, the concentration of these other compounds is extremely low. For the scope of this article, though, it's probably best to remove that information as I can see how it adds confusion.

Finally, I would like to make a correction, or rather a clarification. In natural buttermilk, the lactic acid bacteria does indeed come from the environment. When the cow is milked, lactic acid bacteria does not pass from the cow's mammary glands into the milk. Lactic acid bacteria, like yeasts, molds, fungi, etc is everywhere, and finds its way into the milk during transport, processing, and pretty much any other time the milk is exposed to the open air. It's probably on the teat, the milking apparatus, the cow itself, and pretty much everywhere else, if even in tiny populations. It so happens that LAB has an affinity for growing in association with Casein... When farmers made butter and buttermilk the old fashioned way, they would take whole milk and let it sit. This allowed the fatty cream to float to the top, and the skim milk to separate to the bottom. They would then skim off the cream for butter-making. This process was repeated several times until enough cream was collected to start churning it. It is during these periods of sitting out that the milk really starts to take on a large diversity of bacteria and fungi.

It really is a miracle of evolution what happens next: Because there is so much lactose in the milk, the lactic acid bacteria thrives and other molds, fungi, and bacteria don't really do so well. As the lactic acid bacteria continues to grow, more lactic acid is produced. The increasing acidity begins to kill off the other bacteria, yeasts, and molds which have NOT evolved to survive in such acidic conditions. Thus, we're left with almost enirely lactic acid bacteria. Of course, nature can be imperfect and nastier critters may well survive which is why this process is almost never seen anymore (lawsuits!) beyond small farmer's markets and personal production.

Anwyay, I am a biochemist by training and not an anthropologist so I can't contribute to the aspect of "buttermilk" as it exists in different countries, although the idea is fascinating. Perhaps you can share some info in that regard :) I did restore that link I accidentally removed, though.

...So in summary, thanks for your input. I did try to make the two products distinct and clear this time around. I added headings, some more information, and reworked the structure. I still think the table is kind of unnecessary when just comparing two things. Now, if we had like 6 or 7 things we were comparing, I think a table is wholly appropriate. But as it was, words weren't capitalized, I don't think it was too complete, and it didn't fit too well in the article from an aesthetic point of view. Hopefully my latest revision makes clear the things I initially screwed up :)

And again, the lactic acid bacteria is not inherently present in natural milk, but does come from the environment (just like wild yeasts fermented ancient wines and beers, and wild lactic acid bacteria created the first sour-dough breads!) This has been demonstrated in several published, peer-reviewed papers. I'll try and get some citations to add to the article for that.

Again, thanks for pointing out my other errors :)

RJSampson 07:36, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I personally think your new edit is a major improvement on the article. It needs references, however, which I assume you'll dig up. Regarding the statement that LAB come from the environment, this part could use clarification.

From what I know, there is in fact endogenous LAB in cow's milk,[1] however LAB from the teats are also likely introduced into the milk during the milking process. Beyond that, the rest of the LAB in the environment has a negligible effect on the milk. Otherwise why can't you just make buttermilk at home using the (pasteurized & homogenized) milk you buy from the grocery store? Why would you need to add LAB culture to the milk instead of just letting it sit outside for a couple days? –panda 14:58, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I did some more major clean-up of the article and added a brief sentence about acidified buttermilk. I simplified the language a little since it was too wordy and unnecessarily technical at times, and reorganized those sections that ended up with almost nothing afterwards. Also, the article needs more references. –panda (talk) 20:40, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

What is 'buttermilk' in english-speaking countries, it is called 'yogurt' in South East Europe. What is 'yogurt' in english-speaking countries, it is called 'sour milk' (kiselo ml(ij)eko) in SE Europe. So there's a difference in the names, and for someone who doesn't know what 'yogurt' means in North America, can find out that it's actually a 'sour milk', only if he is lucky he can find that what he is looking for (yogurt) is actually called -a 'buttermilk'. Chiirs.24.86.127.209 (talk) 06:31, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Benefits

I removed the following text because it seemed to be long on original research and short on citations. If you can verify this information (much of it should be verifiable, I would think), please re-add it to the article, making sure to cite reliable sources. Thanks, Vectro (talk) 00:07, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Cultured buttermilk is lower in fat and calories than regular milk because the fat from buttermilk has already been removed to make butter. It is high in potassium, vitamin B12 and calcium. Buttermilk is more easily digestible than whole milk and it also contains more lactic acid than skim milk. Due to being more easily digestible (a result of the bacteria added to the milk), protein and calcium can be taken up more easily by the body. There are 99 kilocalories and 2.2 grams of fat in one cup of buttermilk (fat content may be different with some buttermilk brands, as some brands are made with skim milk while others are made with reduced fat milk), as opposed to whole milk that has 157 kilocalories and 8.9 grams of fat.

something to kick that off.
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/dairy-and-egg-products/80/2
--shiny 75.23.65.53 (talk) 14:12, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Aging

Since at least the 19th century, farmers haven't simply aged milk in order to separate cream from skim milk. They've used a separator. I think the DeLaval Separator was introduced about 1920, and it quickly became the standard on American farms. You don't want the skim milk to ferment; you want it to be fresh. Farm wives would accumulate cream for 7 to 10 days before churning it into butter, because it improved the taste of the butter. Salt is ordinarily added to cream before it is churned, both for flavor and to improve the keeping quality of the butter. Consequently, buttermilk is a salty beverage. The fresh skim milk is mostly used for agricultural purposes, such as feeding orphan lambs, and slopping pigs. You've got to produce a lot of butter to get much buttermilk, so the farmer would drink it himself rather than try to market such a small amount of fluid. It's not a drink of the south because of souring; it's a drink of rural areas, and the south is rural, but you'll find the drink is more popular in rural areas of Ohio, Wisconsin, Minnesota, etc. I suspect, but have no demographics, that it's consumed as a beverage more by older individuals who may remember the taste of real buttermilk, while consumption among younger purchasers is as an ingredient - for making buttermilk biscuits, breading fried chicken, buttermilk cookies, and buttermilk icing.

I called Land O'Lakes a year or two ago, to ask what happens to real buttermilk these days, since it tastes so much better than the cultured stuff, and the manager of the butter making plant said they sold it in bulk, but he thinks it is used for feed. A shame! 72.72.131.169 (talk) 11:57, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

ehow articles: /how_4504798_real-homemade-cultured-buttermilk.html for those curious this ehow article doesn't look too shabby, and explains how to make a batch of cultured buttermilk from a small bit of cultured buttermilk and some milk. also see /how_5585168_make-homemade-butter-churn.html on making butter and thereby producing that old-fashioned good stuff that g'ma calls real buttermilk. btw wikipedia's spam filtration is really a pain in the arse at times. this is a completely relevant set of references, furthermore located in a talk page, not the main article. if an article on buttermilk and another one on butter isn't relevant, then i don't know what is. --shiny666 75.23.65.53 (talk) 14:40, 26 October 2010 (UTC) p.s. i'm not writing up a full reference tag for a talk page. http://www.madehow.com/Volume-2/Butter-and-Margarine.html

Afghanistan

This item has been transferred from the main article:

* [[تروی or Torwhey]], the liquid left over after producing butter. "Afghanistan"

I don't know why English WP is a home for Afghan vocabulary.

If that is Afghan, then presumably it is Pashto or Dari. The Perso-Arabic script literally reads "torway" (amongst other possibilities).
Does that etymologically bear some relation to English "whey"? (Both Pashto and Dari are in fact Indo-European.)
Varlaam (talk) 04:38, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Grammar

The article, and parts of this discussion, treat "bacteria" as if it were singular. It is plural, which makes phrases like "As the bacteria produces [sic] lactic acid" ungrammatical.

Similarly "Adding specific strains of bacteria [sic] to pasteurized milk allows more consistent production" should mention "strains of bacterium", singular. Try it with the name of some other organism that is not irregular in the plural to see why.

-A.

Nutrition / Chuck Berry

Would it be possible to get more nutritional information on buttermilk added to this article. I read that early Rock and Roll star Chuck Berry was weak/sickly as a child as was given Buttermilk by his mother to build him up. He became a very successful and energetic musician and has a reputation as a businessman/entrepreneur too. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 135.196.5.146 (talk) 09:44, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Reliability of "Health Benefits"

The benefits listed under the "Health Benefits" section seem to cite sources of questionable quality. Maybe someone can look for better ones and generally clean up? 128.54.82.182 (talk) 11:42, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

The comparison between milk and buttermilk appears to be exact to the calorie but is meaningless as it is unclear what "one cup" might be. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Poco4 (talk • contribs) 20:06, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

The "one cup" is an American measurement of 8 fluid ounces or approximately 250 ml. Miros1 (talk) 22:29, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

"soothing to the stomach and alleviates minor stomach upsets". Any scientific studies about this? I checked all references listed in this Wikipedia article and found no scientific studies of "benefical to stomach". Does one get same benefits by eating chease, like emmental or edam? I suppose you get same benefits by eating probiotic tables or capsules, for example 299v.

ee1518 (talk) 11:08, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

Powdered/Dried Buttermilk

Information from a commercial producer. I personally prefer buttermilk powder to such ersatz concoctions as milk plus vinegar or lemon juice and it keeps quite a while until it solidifies in the partially cardboard cannister. It can also be used in bread machines with timers (personal experience) by putting the powder in with the yeast. Miros1 (talk) 22:38, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

References

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Nutrition information

The article sets out that there are three different things all called "buttermilk".

But there is only nutritional information for "generic" buttermilk. It seems unlikely that the nutrition of all the three types of buttermilk is the same.

I think the article should acknowledge this point and at least specify which meaning of buttermilk the nutrient numbers apply to. JMB234 (talk) 23:46, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

I’m reading incorrectly or this is a non-sequitor?

I am having trouble wrapping my head around this sentence at the top of the article: “ As most modern butter is not made with cultured cream but sweet cream, most modern buttermilk is cultured.” Most modern butter being made with sweet cream connects with most modern buttermilk being cultured how? Is the implied meaning that the usage of sweet cream leaves cultured cream to a significant degree left over to be used for buttermilk? If it’s not, I don’t have another guess as to what it means. If it is, could it be elaborated further/more explicitly in the article? GoldenGoose100 (talk) 03:45, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

Traditional buttermilk is the liquid left behind when cultured cream is churned to make butter. But since the vast majority of modern butter is made from sweet (that is, uncultured) cream, the traditional form of buttermilk is rare and instead buttermilk is made by simply adding the bacterial culture directly to liquid milk, not cream. If you can think of a way to rephrase it to make that clearer (I kinda agree that the current sentence is almost too brief to really describe it), feel free to give it a shot. oknazevad (talk) 12:39, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

Oh, thank you very much for the response! I see where the disconnect happened. I didn’t factor in the previous sentence explaining how buttermilk is traditionally made. But then a further disconnect comes (say, if you don’t realize or already know) from not knowing or it being explicitly mentioned that sweet cream is “sweet” due to being uncultured, a lack of lactic acid then makes it perceived as a relatively sweeter taste than would cultured cream be perceived. It clicked for me when you said parenthetically, “that is, uncultured cream.” I’d add something elucidating that. GoldenGoose100 (talk) 12:56, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

clarification on cultured buttermilk

I need clarification in the Cultured Buttermilk section on the process of making butter and buttermilk out of homogenized milk or whatever inputs and outputs we have that result in butter and buttermilk when starting with US-style pateurized/homogenized dairy inputs. Rtdrury (talk) 18:11, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

Merge request: Cultured buttermilk

Apparently there are two milk factions here on English Wikipedia. There is the Buttermilk-faction, and there is the Soured milk-faction. Both maintaining their articles about the very same thing. Cultured buttermilk is soured milk. Thus I suggest that the whole section about cultured buttermilk is to be merged with the article about soured milk, and the article about buttermilk is to focus entirely on traditional buttermilk.

Ragnar Ekre (talk) 00:28, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

False Information

Originally, buttermilk referred to the thin liquid left over from churning butter from cultured or fermented cream. Traditionally, before the advent of homogenization, the milk was left to sit for a period of time to allow the cream and milk to separate. During this time, naturally occurring lactic acid-producing bacteria in the milk fermented it.

This is a false statement. Referring to The Country Housewife Family Companion by William Ellis, 1750 originally the milk was filtered through a sieve into a milk pan. The milk pan was then place on hot embers and the milk was allowed to slowly scald. This scalding process kills bacteria in the milk, denatures the milk proteins allowing the cream to separate. Prior to 1920, buttermilk was not cultured nor sour. Scalded milk or cream keeps for 40 hours or as Maria Rundell states in her book A New System of Domestic Cookery, 1804, scalded milk will keep for 2 days without going sour in the summer or 4 days in the winter. Cultured or fermented butter did not exist when making butter, the buttermilk was almost always "sweet" buttermilk 98.1.63.20 (talk) 20:05, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Entirely incorrect Anglo-centric view. For one thing, buttermilk is centuries older than 1750, and that is one English cookbook. It's utterly irrelevant for the practices of places like the Middle East, India, the Balkans, and other areas far beyond the British. Finding an early method to make sweet cream butter in Ken book does not invalidate anything in this well-sourced articles. oknazevad (talk) 23:21, 22 August 2024 (UTC)