Talk:William Fullarton (footballer)

William Fullarton (footballer) and Bill Fullerton

Since we're talking about the subject, would someone mind merging William Fullarton (footballer) and Bill Fullerton? They're clearly one and the same. The only difference seems to be the variation of spelling in the surname. I have no experience of merging two articles together so if I tried then I'm sure I'd mess it up. Cheers. Argyle 4 Life^talk 15:45, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

They are differernt people. Greens on Screen list the player D here, moving on to New Brompton, then list the manager here stating that "Sadly, nothing is known about Fullerton's life or career after he left Home Park."--EchetusXe 15:55, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Bit coincidental that (according to GoS) they were both born in 1882 and both played for Sunderland between 1903 and 1905, though, surely....? Could it be that Fullerton's profile has accidentally acquired some of Fullarton's bio? I'll check my copy of Joyce tonight to see if both really are listed as having played for Sunderland at the same time..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:01, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

I think that D Fullarton is a different player to Bill Fullerton. The problem is that his article was incorrectly titled William Fullarton (footballer) when that isn't his name at all. As a result of the confusion Bill's ended up with some of D's bio. Does that sound reasonable? Alzarian16 (talk) 16:10, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

The StatCat (Sunderland) website has an entry for William Fullarton [1] - there is no other Fullerton or Fullarton listed. Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 16:12, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Joyce lists only one Fulla/erton as playing for anybody in the Football League, a William M FullArton with William Fullarton (footballer)'s club details and Sunderland/Forest stats. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 16:25, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm fairly confident its the same person, albeit the book I have has the same issue. A former Sunderland half back called William Fullerton managed Plymouth Argyle in the 1906–07 season and was dismissed at the end of that season to make way for a committee. Meanwhile, the section for player statistics lists a W.M. Fullarton, who made 34 Southern League appearances in the 1906–07 season and isn't listed in any other season. I think he was player-manager and then moved on to New Brompton, with the spelling of the name being a common mistake. Argyle 4 Life^talk 16:55, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

The player's name was William according to Joyce and The Definitive Gillingham F.C. - where's the reference to "D Fullarton" come into the discussion......? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 17:50, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

GoS gives the Plymouth appearances to "D Fullarton". cheers, Struway2 (talk) 17:59, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

So, to summarise, there was definitely a player called William Fullarton, who played for Sunderland, Plymouth and Brompton, there are multiple sources that confirm that. There was also a manager who was at Plymouth at the same time as this player and who had the same name, however there's no reliable source that actually confirms that they're the same guy (GoS gives some of the same info for both men but doesn't explicitly link them). Is that accurate.....? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 17:52, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

The Greens on Screen website lists the footballer as D FULLARTON. Seen as we know he is W FULLARTON that somewhat reduces that site's credibility on the matter. There is also a variation of the spelling, the player being called 'Fullarton' and the manager 'Fullerton'. What would clear it up is a reliable source giving some details on the manager, either seeming to show that he was never a player or seeming to show that his name was actually Fullarton.--EchetusXe 18:01, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Actually, for extra added confusion value, I've just noticed that Home of the Shouting Men, the Gills centenary book, lists him as D Fullarton too...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 18:05, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

So it's either two blokes of which only one owns the playing history, or it's two blokes whose playing histories have been added together, or it's one bloke christened William with a nickname beginning with D ... cheers, Struway2 (talk) 18:12, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Is there a "this may actually be the same person as X" template available........? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 18:13, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

You could edit {{Distinguish}} to remove the initial "Not"... cheers, Struway2 (talk) 18:18, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Look at the can of worms I've opened! Thanks for the extra bit of information to back up GoS, Chris. I won't have that websites reliability questioned (the people involved in it are a credit to my club). The book I have specifically states that Fulla/erton the manager played for Sunderland as a half back, so another reliable source should clear it up - the question is where. If only Joyce did Southern League player records. Argyle 4 Life^talk 18:44, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Could the GoS people be contacted directly to see if they can shed any further light? They might not even be aware that they have two profiles of what might be the same man..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 19:18, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

William Fullarton didn't play a single league game at half-back for Sunderland, he played at the number 5 position in every single league game he played. He was transfered to Nottingham Forest 26-10-1905 He played 4 games as right-half the rest centre-half. To complicate things even more: There was a J.Fullerton playing for New Brompton in 1907-08. A William Fullerton played 2 matches in 1897-98 for Dundee on the left wing. It would be nice if the FA published their full registration records. Professional clubs operated with several professional senior teams, it is possible that somewhere down the line a reserve team player got mixed up with a first team player. His middlename is Millwright and he played 37 league games for Queens Park (Emms-Wells) Cattivi (talk) 19:56, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

For what it's worth, the number 5 position was a half-back, it was the number of the centre-half, while 4 and 6 were the wing halves. BigDom 21:22, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

The W.M. Fullarton in my book mostly wore 4 and 6 when he played. Argyle 4 Life^talk 21:37, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, actually he didn't, seeing as numbers weren't used until the late 1920s :) The book just uses the numbers to denote positions. BigDom 06:36, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Smart arse. ;) That is what I meant but indeed it didn't come across like that when I wrote it. Argyle 4 Life^talk 14:19, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, wing half and half back aren't synonymes, my mistake Cattivi (talk) 08:59, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Interesting. I've sent an email to Steve (GoS owner), so we'll see if he can shed any light on it. This sort of thing doesn't surprise me really. We're lucky to have what we do now and back then it was much different. I'm sure many records have been mixed up and lost over time because it was all done on paper. I hope the FA do what Cattivi suggests in the future but it'll take a hell of alot of work. Argyle 4 Life^talk 20:18, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

So there is a D Fullarton, W Fullarton, W Fullerton, and a J Fullerton. All of which may be the same person?--EchetusXe 20:23, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

You can be sure that the Dundee player wasn't the Queens Park, Sunderland, Nottingham Forest player. But he could have been the Plymouth manager when the Plymouth manager and player are two different persons. Cattivi (talk) 20:31, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

All my Gills books list the two Fullartons separately, but have no details on where the one who wasn't signed from Plymouth was signed from. Based on what Cattivi says, it seems likely that the Plymouth/Brompton player was D Fullarton, but he didn't play for Sunderland, and that the Plymouth manager was Bill Fullerton and he did play for Sunderland. And J Fullerton was someone else entirely. Does that make sense? Looks like Joyce has merged their records into one........ -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:01, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Its looking that way I agree. I remembered there was a team photo here and hoped that they were both there. They are in the middle row. Fulla/erton the player on the left and Fulla/erton the manager in the centre. A funny coincidence how they both arrived and left at the same time. Argyle 4 Life^talk 16:02, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

I've heard back from Steve and can confirm that the Plymouth manager was indeed called William Fullarton. They did some digging last year and forgot to change his name here, but its sorted now. He also attached a page from the 1906-07 handbook which reads as follows;

“ Among old faces that will be missed this season will be those of H. Wilcox, W. Leech, (both gone to Leicester Fosse), I. Owens (Bristol Rovers), W. Godley (Reading), P. Saul (Liverpool), A. Clark (Leeds City), J. Banks (Leyton), F. Buck (West Bromwich Albion), W. Horne (Fulham), R. McNeil, D. Buchanan, W.F. Bauchop and R. Jack (Southend). Argyle has thus lost thirteen players – one goalkeeper, three backs, three halves, and six forwards. Among the last named also is the ex-manager. The loss of Bob Jack was to many the loss not only of an attractive player at his best, but also of a personal friend. His successor is W.H. Fullarton, late of Notts Forest. For his transfer £500 was paid to Sunderland by the Foresters, and the Midland Club's directorate was not at all pleased to learn that Fullarton was coming West. For a centre half he is the man who would be most acceptable to Notts Forest just now. That fact probably inspires the policy which is being pursued by Notts in refusing their consent for Fullarton to play for Plymouth. While he is at liberty to manage the side there is an objection to his lending it actual assistance on the field. At the time of writing, however, there were hopes that the difficulty might be removed. In any case, if Fullarton proves a first-class manager, as it is believed he will, the club will be extremely fortunate in having retained him. ”

So he was allowed to manage the club but wasn't permitted to play. Below that is a list of players and one of them is David Fullarton, the brother of William. The appearances for Plymouth listed here were made by David. He isn't included in Joyce's book because he didn't play in the Football League and they obviously got merged together at some point. William Fullarton played in the Football League for Sunderland and Nottingham Forest, and only managed Plymouth. His brother David played for Plymouth in the Southern League and then moved on to New Brompton. What happened to William after he left Plymouth I'm not sure, but it looks like we've sorted a few things out atleast. Argyle 4 Life^talk 04:12, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

If I understand well...William Fullarton (footballer) and Bill Fullerton are one and the same. Both articles should be merged.--Latouffedisco (talk) 09:53, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Indeed. I'll leave that to someone with experience of merging. Argyle 4 Life^talk 00:44, 29 August 2010 (UTC)