Talk:Battle of Vajkal

MILHIST initial assessment

Solid article crying out for inline citations to source the detailsMonstrelet (talk) 08:17, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Sources

Unresolved

This article heavily relies on the primary source (Meshtari Dhimiter Frangu (Demetrio Franco) — 7 references). The only other source is Gennaro Francione (2 references) (a writer also worked as an actor and director, theater, essayist and painter who is from the artistic point of view influenced by Hacker Art, art, Gothic Revival and the so-called cyber-culture) who is not scholar specialized in history.

What is more important, those two sources are the only sources used in the article.

Taking in consideration that:

1. according to wikipedia policy Wikipedia:No original research Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources and
2. Gennaro Francione can not be regarded as trustworthy or authoritative in relation to the subject at hand which is request of this and this guideline.

I propose to support information in this article with some secondary sources written by historians who can be regarded as trustworthy or authoritative in relation to the subject at hand.

In the meantime I propose to mark this article with appropriate tags ({{one source}}) and {{primary sources}}.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 13:26, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

According to this link: A primary source may only be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements that any educated person, with access to the source but without specialist knowledge, will be able to verify are supported by the source. For example, an article about a novel may cite passages to describe the plot, but any interpretation needs a secondary source. There is no interpretation here, just straightforward statements. As for Francione, I will replace him with Noli since that is where he got everything from.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 22:07, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Where is Vaikal?

Unresolved

• This article says that location of Vaikal (why Vaikal instead of Vajkal?) is both "southeastern Albania" and "Vaikal valley, near Ohrid". Coordinates show some position south of Ohrid where does not exist any Vaikal.
• The section about second battle of Vaikal says that it is near Oranik (which location is positioned in Upper Dibra in most of articles).
• Google map shows VaJkal in upper Dibra (just search Vajkal, Dibër County, Albania).

--Antidiskriminator (talk) 11:45, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

• I found another source which supports Debar ubification: Literaturen zbor. Društvo za makedonski jazik i literatura. 1966. p. 20. ... клисурата Вајкал кај Булчица (помеѓу Горниот и Долниот Дебар) и заврши со победата на Скендербег.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:13, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Error in the result of the battle

The battle of vaikal isn't an albanian victory skanderbeg in the beginning of the battle his winning but after Balaban Bandera the Albanian Paşa captured 20 albanian noble (the right hand of skanderbeg and the nephew of skanderbeg) and after contre attacks skanderbeg, Skanderbeg run away in fact its not an albanian victory Jonarin56 (talk) 15:13, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Albanian Victory?

Hello Mr.Botushali. In the result of the war, it is written that there was an Albanian victory, but when we examine the article, we can understand that the Ottoman Empire won. And Turkish historians (Selahattin Tansel, İsmail Hakkı Uzunçarşılı) do not go into much detail about this war, they only write that he gained a small advantage and captured 8 commanders. What are your thoughts on this subject? Keremmaarda (talk) 23:13, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

The Battle of Vaikal is not mentioned as an Ottoman victory by sources. It is a well-documented historical fact that almost all of Skanderbeg’s battles resulted in victories, I do not know why you want to change that.

According to the article (which also needs an update), the actual battle itself resulted in the Ottomans fleeing and the Albanians repelling the invasion and holding their ground. However, some of Skanderbeg’s officers did not follow his orders during or after the battle and were captured by Ottoman forces despite the victory. If you have ever heard the term Pyrrhic victory, then you’ll know what this battle was. Once the Ottomans regrouped, Ballaban ordered them to march back to Constantinople with their captives. Botushali (talk) 00:33, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Will we consider it a defeat because it cannot occupy the lands? We look at what happened inside the battlefield. And yes, it would be more accurate to say Pyrrich victory because the Ottomans take many prisoners and manage to push the Albanians out of the battlefield. But we cannot definitely call it an Albanian victory because it could not occupy the lands. Mehmed II was sending these armies partly as a policy of intimidation. The siege of Berat is the same way. And if we look at the description of the article, we see that the Ottomans won the Pyrrich victory. Keremmaarda (talk) 07:45, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Buddy, these are all your own interpretations. Wikipedia is based on sources, not on WP:OR interpretations of what happened a few hundred years ago. Sources call it an Albanian victory, so that’s what Wikipedia says. Botushali (talk) 12:56, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia doesn't say it is, Hadkingson says it is. And none of them are my interpretation. It is said that Selahattin Tansel and İsmail Hakkı Uzunçarşılı, Balaban Pasha had the upper hand in this war but was defeated in the subsequent wars. Keremmaarda (talk) 14:26, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

• Comment History is complex, especially when labeling medieval battles as 'Victory/Defeat' on Wikipedia. I do not have a strong opinion on this particular topic, but I do understand the concerns. Firstly, the article need a citation from Hadkingson's source. Secondly, it's better not to rely on just one source for something as complex as determining battle outcomes. --Azor (talk). 19:57, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

  I agree. Keremmaarda (talk) 21:40, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

• Final Comment: Regardless of whatever strange and ahistorical concerns were presented by the editors above, the article has now been overhauled. Thanks. Botushali (talk) 07:58, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

  Botushali, provide the source used and its citation when you classified it as an 'Albanian victory'. It shouldn't be that difficult. --Azor (talk). 08:22, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

  Azor, read the article. Every single one of the sources used describe it as an Albanian victory. If there was only a single source, fair enough, but there's multiple here. Why crowd the infobox with unnecessary references? I don't see that anywhere in Template:Infobox. WP:BLUESKY - if the article describes the event as an Albanian victory and there is no controversy in bibliography over the result (unlike the Battle of Kosovo, hence why the infobox says inconclusive and has references to support it), then what's the point of having numerous references there?

  Here's some links to random battles from the Thirty Years' War which also resulted in a victory for one side just to illustrate that crowding the infobox with sources is not protocol - Battle of Jankau, Battle of Frankfurt an der Oder and Capture of Maastricht. Botushali (talk) 08:32, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

  You have still not provided any source with its corresponding quotation despite having editors raising concerns with its verifiability. Classifying battle outcomes is usually one of the more complex aspects of medieval battles, so there has to be a solid ground behind such editing. For God's sake, fulfill the request and stop bombarding this TP with a bunch of unnecessary text and links. --Azor (talk). 09:01, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

  Read the article. If you seriously cannot read articles and see all of the sources used describe it as a victory, then you probably should not be editing Wikipedia pages. Basic comprehension is a pretty major requirement. Botushali (talk) 09:34, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

  Refusing to cooperate is one thing, but taunting me on top of that is very unnecessary. --Azor (talk). 10:05, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

  The fact that it is an Albanian victory is just your own interpretation. The sources you gave do not consider this war as an Albanian victory. Keremmaarda (talk) 10:21, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

  The sources you gave do not say that the Albanians won. Keremmaarda (talk) 10:20, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

  I sincerely hope you are joking, Keremmarda. Noli and Franco (the sources that were already used on the article) already called the battle a victory. Now, the sources I have added that you can also check yourself:

  - Bunguri (2022, pages 194-195): On the Vajkal field within five months during 1465 are fought two bloody battles between the Albanian army leaded by Gjergj Kastrioti Scanderbeg and the Ottoman armies. In the first battle (April 1465)... The battle was severe and bloody. Scanderbeg won even with great losses.

  - Elsie (2003, taken from Muzaka's Chronicles I believe, pages 51-52): ... vanquished the Turks in a battle which they fought... they cut many Turks to pieces who fled from them into the middle of the Vajkal valley... which is then confirmed by a footnote from Elsie himself.

  Now, Marin Barleti also discusses the battle and calls it an Albanian victory, although I am hesitant to add his work as he is a primary source, and I prefer to use more recent and scholarly sources. There's even a monument in Vajkal dedicated to the two battles that Skanderbeg won in the region, and there's Albanian songs and poems dedicated to the event too. Here's some more sources:

  - From one of the talks at the Second Conference of Albanological Studies published by the Institute of History and Linguistics of Albania (1969, page 173): Skenderbeu korri fitore të shumta kundër armiqve më të mëdhenj në numër në një varg betejash si në Torvioll, Mokrenë, Oranik, Drin, Vajkal, Barletë etj...

  - From Volume 14 of the journal 'Perparimi' (1968, page 250): ... me 18,000 ushtarë në Vajkal të Bulqizës, por pësoi disfatë. Mirëpo, kjo fitore i kushtoi shtrejt Skënderbeut...

  - From Volume 16 of the journal Gjurmime Albanologjike published by the Albanological Institute of Prishtina (1987, page 77): Në prill të vitit 1465, Ballaban Pasha me 18,000 ushtarë pësoi disfatë në Vajkal të Bulqizës...

  - From Issue 18 of the journal Monumentet published by the Institute of Cultural Monuments (1979, page 87) ... renegati Ballaban Pasha prej Mati, në inkursionin e tij të parë më 1465 vuri në shenjë Matin. Por Skënderbeu si vendosi kampin ne Petralbë, me 8 mijë kalorës e 4 mijë këmbësorë i doli para në Valkal te Bulqizës dhe e dërmoi... Botushali (talk) 12:05, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

  Franco is also a period source, and Selahattin Tansel and İsmail Hakkı Uzunçarşılı say that the Turks achieved success in this war, but they say that Balaban was defeated in subsequent wars. Keremmaarda (talk) 12:11, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

  1. This wasn’t a war, this was a battle.

  2. To say they were victorious in the battle is a fringe theory, show me the quotes. Botushali (talk) 12:17, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

  Bungari provides no basis for labeling this event a 'victory.' While he rephrases some primary sources, his justification for calling it a 'victory' lacks any research foundation. Upon examining the entire source, it is clear that his work focuses more on the archaeological and physical impact of history rather than on history itself; hence, the source is filled with personal pictures.

  Reliable historians usually use solid grounds to classify a medieval event as 'victorious' or a 'loss.' Robert Elise is a recognized and reliable historian among those presented. And as you can tell, he does not categorize this event as a victory, nor does he imply that it was one. In fact, the aftermath of the event in Elise's source is solely centered on Balaban's capture of Albanians. --Azor (talk). 21:26, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

  Bungari literally sources his work - not only was he part of an archaeological team that studied the fortifications of the Dibra region during Skanderbeg's time in great depth, but his team used a lot of archival and primary research to form the basis of their work. His basis for this battle is Barleti, and he confirms Barleti's statements. The source is WP:RS.

  Find me a single source describing this battle as a loss for the Albanians - you cannot, the sources on the article along with the sources I quoted above very clearly describe it as a victory for Skanderbeg and a defeat for Ballaban, albeit a costly one. ... the aftermath of the event in Elsie's source is solely centered on Balaban's capture of Albanians. That's right - the aftermath of the battle, not the battle itself.

  Unless you have sources calling it a loss for the Albanians, your questionable and ahistorical concerns regarding the result of the battle are pointless. Stop following me around on articles to try and bother me with useless discussions in which you bring 0 sources. Botushali (talk) 01:55, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

  We don't use sources on Wikipedia which involves personal pictures of flags and nationalistic gestures (p.198). For the most part, the source is not even historical and would be much better suited for articles related to the archeological aspects of history. And lastly on top of that, which exact archival work is used by Bungari to classify the battle outcome? As far as I can tell, he uses no archival work to classify the battle outcome. None of the quotes from Barleti or any other citation in his work describes any battle outcome. See for yourself.

  As for the RS by Elise, it does not give any clear indication of any victory for any parts involved, despite the writing of Ottoman success in the aftermath. Interestingly enough, many medieval events are weighted as victory based on its aftermath. Perhaps its more of an Ottoman victory than anything else? --Azor (talk). 07:05, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

  The double-headed eagle hand gesture is not nationalistic, that's a ridiculous claim. Besides, plenty of books or publications have pictures of the author/authors. Take it to the RSN. As I have already said, he uses Barleti's work in regards to the battle, either you have severe issues with comprehension or are purposefully ignoring my comments. In Elsie's source, it opens up the relevant section with saying that the Albanians vanquished the Turks in a battle which they fought in relation to Vajkal, and numerous sources provided above also consider it a victory.

  No sources say that the Battle of Vajkal, whether it was the first or the second, was an Ottoman victory. Stop adding your own WP:OR interpretations on whether it was a victory or a defeat, this is beyond WP:GOODFAITH at this point. Your participation in this discussion is a case of WP:CPP. Unless you have sources and quotes, refrain from ignoring what's in front of you and making abstract claims on sources and events. I am not obliged to keep having pointless discussions with you in which you fail to provide any sources for what you say and ignore absolutely everything I have to say, Wikipedia is not a forum. Botushali (talk) 12:38, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

  Use as many sources from Albanian historiography as you like, and for all I care, you can continue to use sources which includes personal pictures of Albanian nationalistic gestures and flags. However, do not misuse the few reliable sources on this article by editing something they don't actually claim. Neither of Hadkingson or Elise write of any victories. --Azor (talk). 12:44, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

  If you actually paid attention, you’ll notice I wasn’t the one who added Hadkingson, but your purpose here is to WP:CPP so I’m not surprised that you weren’t aware. I also disagree with you on the Elsie source.

  Regardless, where are your sources that say otherwise? If you don’t have sources, please don’t waste my time. Botushali (talk) 16:53, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

  In regards to Elsie's work, there is nothing to "disagree" with me on. Do not misuse a scholar's work to back a claim clearly not supported by the author. --Azor (talk). 18:44, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

  There is indeed something to disagree on. Read the passage, it’s one of the primary sources in the book. Elsie himself may not make a comment other than confirming the battle’s occurrence in a footnote, but the passage itself says that the Albanians vanquished the Turks in a battle (Vajkal) which they fought, and then details how exactly they were captured. Botushali (talk) 20:52, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

  You're basically admitting into doing original research on Wikipedia. You are not allowed to base your edits on your own interpretations of primary sources. You should know this by now. --Azor (talk). 23:23, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

  It’s not an OR interpretation, it literally says they vanquished the Turks in a battle in which they fought, but you do you… Botushali (talk) 17:09, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

  give us visible sources (like PDF). Keremmaarda (talk) 15:23, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

  The sources have URL’s… Botushali (talk) 16:54, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

  Just pages taken from Google Books that do not display properly. I remind you that this was one of the reasons why the Buzurshek war was written off. Keremmaarda (talk) 22:38, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

  The excerpts that can be seen very clearly state what is written, thanks. Botushali (talk) 17:08, 25 December 2023 (UTC)