Talk:Training centre for release of the Atma-energy

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Sources

In the handbook "Kirchen, Sekten, Religionen" (Schmid, 2003) there is a section about the group. According to it there was no affiliation to the Solar Temple and no indication of a plan of mass suicide. --Tobs45 (talk) 11:33, 5 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

In the article it not says that the group were insured with the Order of the Solar Temple but split from it, which is different. Anyway, that's the police explanation that was given at the time and still is considered valid. Both sects are related, because the police believed the sect Heide was going to commit ritual suicide in imitation of that made the Order of the Solar Temple four years earlier.--81.37.190.238 (talk) 11:58, 4 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Proceedings in Spain suspended in July 2004

See Massimo Introvigne, "Atman Foundation: No Evidence of Attempted Mass Suicide" on http://www.cesnur.org/2005/mi_atman.htm. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tobs45 (talk • contribs) 07:58, 2 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Name change?

Please provide a reliable source to explain the name change from "Atman Foundation" to "Training centre for release of the Atma-energy".

Thanks Bksimonb (talk) 07:18, 22 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The Handbook "Kirchen, Sekten, Religionen" by Georg Schmid, p. 270 ([1]). "Atman Foundation" is an NGO which could deserve an own article here. But feel free to change the name back if you don't agree. --Tobs45 (talk) 19:04, 5 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

OK thanks. It is a better name than "Atman Foundation" in the sense that it is certainly unique :) I know there are other "Atman Foundation" organisations, for example, based in India and UK. Regards Bksimonb (talk) 08:06, 9 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Further name change reversed

The recent title change to the German Trainingszentrum zur Freisetzung der Atmaenergie has been reversed. The edit summary was "translate it if this can be done without loss of accuracy and with greater understanding for the English-speaking reader", but there is little question that using a German title makes it far less comprehensible to the average English reader. Mathglot (talk) 03:10, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Mathglot If we need an English title, it should be at either the title "Atman Foundation" or "Isis Holistic Centre", as those are the only titles the English RS call it. Probably the latter.

The current title, a literal, very awkward translation of a German title that has never been used outside wikipedia is bad. The German as used is only infrequently used in the sourcing here anyway, particularly the later coverage. It's unrecognizable since no non-Wikipedia source has ever used this title. I also don't think it's any less clear in German because, well, the title doesn't convey much meaning anyway. PARAKANYAA (talk) 04:05, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Policy is this: "In deciding whether and how to translate a foreign name into English, follow English-language usage. If there is no established English-language treatment for a name, translate it if this can be done without loss of accuracy and with greater understanding for the English-speaking reader."

Directly translating the name of an organization as done here is very awkward, hence why I say this does constitute a "loss of accuracy" and no greater understanding is gained.

In any case. The English usage is Isis Holistic Centre, or Atman Foundation. So it should be moved to that, instead of literally translating a foreign language title that no English source has ever used. PARAKANYAA (talk) 04:14, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Awkwardness does not enter into it, and certainly does not override the much greater understanding achieved by an English title as compared to a German title, which almost nobody here will understand. I don't have time to get into this now in detail, but 'those are the only titles the English RS call it' is not correct. It remains to be seen which English title is the most common, but whichever one it is, that is the one you should choose. Mathglot (talk) 04:26, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Mathglot Then what does override it? Is every non-English title supposed to be translated, even when there has never been an English source referring to it? That can't be right, because I see names of books and organizations that are high quality and peer reviewed stay with their native titles if there isn't an alternative quite often. In the case of works, pretty much always it seems. But the policy clearly refers to some instances in which they should not be translated. It was my understanding that when it's a name like that it was best to stay with the native one provided there was no common translation.

There are no reliable English sources that refer to it as either "Training centre for release of the Atma-energy" or "Trainingszentrum zur Freisetzung der Atmaenergie". Regrettably, the two used English titles seem to be about tied commonality wise. Isis Holistic Centre is marginally more common, from looking at the books that discuss it. So maybe I will just move it to that. PARAKANYAA (talk) 04:36, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

PARAKANYAA, you quote the correct policy, but misinterpret it. Please do not move the page unilaterally again; instead, follow WP:RM#CM. You can argue a case for moving it to whatever name you choose using that procedure. To answer your question: not every foreign title is translated. When the foreign term is better known in English than the English translation or is just as clear or clearer than the translated term, then we don't translate it; for example: Cirque du Soleil (not 'Sun Circus'), and Mein Kampf (not 'My Struggle'). The ultimate choice should come out of RM#CM, but I feel safe in saying that nobody will believe that the German title is clearer than one of the English titles, the only question will be which English title to choose. Mathglot (talk) 15:25, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oops, too late; you already moved it. I have moved it back to the original English translated title again. Please do not move this page without consensus to do so via the move procedure linked above. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 15:33, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Mathglot The way you did the move deleted every single redirect to this page and has orphaned it since it was only linked through redirects. I don't even remember what linked to this. Is there a way to find out all the redirects there were so I can recreate them? Edit: actually i will just ask the deleting admin

Requested moves I find to be a non useful process, because every time I do it no one even responds. What will happen, like every time I try to do one, is that it will get no responses and be relisted three times before and then nothing happens or it gets moved to the suggested title with no consensus. The current title is terrible though, but like that it stays. PARAKANYAA (talk) 21:54, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

was undeleted so at least that issue is solved! PARAKANYAA (talk) 00:21, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

PARAKANYAA, I see 25 total links, but only two from other articles, Order of the Solar Temple and Fittkau. If you are worried about orphan status or number of in-links, try and find other articles which could reasonably link to this one; if not directly in the body, then perhaps in the See also sections of articles about other, similar groups. One possible article, for example, is New religious movement.

If you have not had good luck in previous move requests, this may be due to the lack of interest in the topic; try attracting unbiased editors by appropriate notification in a neutral venue. Mathglot (talk) 16:00, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 26 December 2024

It has been proposed in this section that Training centre for release of the Atma-energy be renamed and moved to Trainingszentrum zur Freisetzung der Atmaenergie.

A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil.

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Links: current log • target log • direct move

Training centre for release of the Atma-energy → Trainingszentrum zur Freisetzung der Atmaenergie – The current title we have is a literal, incorrectly capitalized translation of the group's actual proper name, which has never seen use in English RS. Every English source refers to this as either Atman Foundation or Isis Holistic Centre, which are also options (though I think they are actually factually incorrect) - but using a literal translation of a proper name that has never been used by anyone not on Wikipedia is perhaps the worst way to do it. Proper names are usually left untranslated in lieu of an actual English title. PARAKANYAA (talk) 22:38, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]