Talk:Eastern Province, Saudi Arabia

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Article title

Ash Sharqiyah literally means "eastern", thus the name of this page should either be Al Mantaqa Ash Sharqiyah, which literally means "Eastern Province", or, a better way, the formal English name, Eastern Province. Naming this article Ash Sharqiyah or Ash Sharqiyah Province is like naming the Saudi Arabia article "Al Mamlakah Al Arabiyah Al Saudiyah", which is not clear at all. -- Eagle^a^mⁿ 16:02, Jun 1, 2005 (UTC)

What are your proposals for the other Ash Sharqiyah ? Tobias Conradi (Talk) 04:29, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

My belief is that it should be Ash Sharqiyah, Saudi Arabia and that all of the other provinces should go by that scheme... there is a certain amount that notabilitiy has to do with Saudi Arabia being named that... important places have been anglacized.... but, we wouldn't call Tokyo (東京) "Eastern City" or Afghanistan "Country of the Afghans" now would we? Province is an english word that helps to tell readers what it is... Eastern is less so... we often do that Miso soup is a mix... and so are countless other articles... gren 05:31, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

syntax
1. for subnational entities I allways used the following:
  1. X in general
  2. X Province if there are different things called X
  3. X Province, Country if there are two provinces called X
2. This avoids the impression Ash Sharqiyah, Saudi Arabia could be a city.
translation
1. Of the governorates of Egypt none are translated, of the states of Sudan a lot are.

Tobias Conradi (Talk) 05:51, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I agree, no one would call Tokyo the Eastern City. Nevertheless, the "Eastern Province" is the name commonly used in English, both by the Saudi government (e.g. school textbooks) and others. For example, in google, there are 2,460,000 hits for (Eastern+Province+Saudi+Arabia), and only 9,410 hits for (Ash+Sharqiyah+Saudi+Arabia). Searching only .gov domains (the most credible) yields only 36 hits for (Ash+Sharqiyah+Saudi+Arabia), and 10,200 hits for (Eastern+Province+Saudi+Arabia). BTW, if using the name Ash Sharqiyah is unavoidable, the Riyadh article should be renamed to Ar Riyadh and so should other places, just for the sake of consistency. Check the search links to see that whenever Ash Sharqiyah is used, some awkward names/spellings are also used for other places in Saudi Arabia itself, some of which you might consider undisputable.

"Of the governorates of Egypt none are translated, of the states of Sudan a lot are.": Well, Riyadh, Mecca, and even Saudi Arabia are translated (Arabic names in latin alphabet: Ar Riyadh, Makkah, and As Saudiyah respectively, along with Ash Sharqiyah). -- Eagle^a^mⁿ 20:49, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)

What are your proposals for the other Ash Sharqiyah ? Tobias Conradi (Talk) 04:29, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Tobias Conradi (Talk) 23:10, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure what they are called by their own inhabitants (in English)/governments and other governments. As far as I'm concerned, Ash Sharqiyah is rarely used in English to refer to the Eastern Province in Saudi Arabia (read my previous comment), therefore I wanted to perfect the consistency of the Saudi province names (like Category:Cities in Saudi Arabia, the names are now consistent).

This is my last comment regarding this, as I believe I made my point crystal clear. -- Eagle^a^mⁿ 10:57, Jun 4, 2005 (UTC)

You made your point crystal clear, nobody had doubts about this. But you do not address naming of arab subdivisions in general. I am not generally against translations but for now I oppose to the move. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 15:15, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Where we are

Wikitravel gives an alternate name for this province only. It's not clear to me why this might be.

The article names (proposed... they're all red links as I write) in Wikitravel are all of the form Ash Sharqiyah Province. In Wikipedia, on the other hand, articles or stubs exist on each province, but there is no systematic naming convention that I can see. I think we need to have one. Until we do, this proposed move would just complicate things.

At present there seems to me to be no consensus supporting this move, and there are also some unexplored issues.

Persian/Arab Gulf

Arabian Gulf is ambiguous and only(?) used by arab countries. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 00:38, 14 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Eagle, why do you always revert disambiguation by others? Tobias Conradi (Talk) 11:23, 7 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Naming conflict

According to Wikipedia Naming Conflict policy, this table should be used:

Criterion	Option 1	Option 2
1. Most commonly used name in English	?	?
2. Current undisputed official name of entity	?	?
3. Current self-identifying name of entity	?	?
1 point = yes, 0 points = no. Add totals to get final scores.

I filled it out:

Criterion	Eastern Province	Ash Sharqiyah Province
1. Most commonly used name in English	1 (by far, see above)	0
2. Current undisputed official name of entity	0	1 (supposedly)
3. Current self-identifying name of entity	1**	0

what is self-identifying name?

Well, I added the scores, and according to the official policy, it should be renamed. -- Eagle^a^mⁿ 23:03, 20 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

According to the official policy, policies are guidelines. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 10:26, 21 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Support - Use English names in English Wikipedia (followed quickly by the official or native form and a transliteration if necessary). LuiKhuntek 07:56, 1 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
oppose - all the others are in arab. also in other countries subdivisionss listings/articles Ash Sharqiyah is used. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 11:24, 7 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

"Ash Sharqiyah" is used in other articles because of disambiguation. Most of the original article writers used "Eastern Province." And about which one is the "self-identifying", it's just like "Saudi Arabia", which is only used in English as opposed to "Al Saudiyah" only used in Arabic. The same thing applies to this article. I mean, if this were to stay as it is, I think - for the sake of consistency - the Saudi Arabia article should be renamed to "Al Mamlakah Al Arabiyah Al Saudiyah"! -- Eagle^a^mⁿ 15:34, 7 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Shouldn't it be "Al Saudiyah"? if this is the arab equiv you mention two sentences ago? Tobias Conradi (Talk) 16:11, 7 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Well, or this one could be "Al mantaqah Al sharqiyah" -- Eagle^a^mⁿ 17:59, 7 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

but words like Provinz, mintaqah, departamento, changwat, wilaya, Bezirk etc. are usually translated in WP into english, whereas the rest of the name is not. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 17:30, 8 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

OK, how about "Kingdom of Al Arabiyah Al Saudiyah"? -- Eagle^a^mⁿ 18:28, 8 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Support. all the others are in arab. -- this is because their are toponyms and not directional names. See States of Sudan or Governorates of Egypt for similar situations. 129.252.70.25 22:32, 8 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
like the Ash Sharqiyah Governorate in Egypt? Is it Eastern Governorate? Do we translate Nanjing as Southern capital? Tobias Conradi (Talk) 23:41, 8 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

We translate if it's the most commonly used and self-identifying name in English. (See the Google numbers I listed above) -- Eagle^a^mⁿ 00:27, 9 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

BTW: Sudan in WP would support your view. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 02:08, 9 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The Nanjing comparison doesn't work. Nanjing is a stylized derivation of "southern capital" (literally, South+Capital) but it is not a descriptive phrase. "Southern capital" in Mandarin would be something like "nanbu de shoudu." It is similar to English names like "Jamestown" -- it's not conceptualized as James' Town to an English speaker; it's just a toponym. (And it wouldn't normally be "translated" as "Jacquesville" in French or "Jakobsdorf" in German. Likewise, names Copenhagen or Rijeka aren't literally called "Merchant's Harbor" or "River" in English.) However, true descriptive toponyms, especially those based on cardinal directions are often translated. (E.g., North Sea, Ivory Coast, South America, North Korea, Red Sea). Many or most of the federal districts of Russia, the regions of the Czech Republic, the provinces of Cameroon, the districts of Israel, and the governorates of Lebanon among others use translations of cardinal point references. Since the Saudi Arabian province is usually referred to in English by its translated name (see above), the entry should carry that as its title. LuiKhuntek 21:55, 10 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

"Often." And since the Saudi Arabian province is usually referred to in English by its translated name, the entry should carry that as its title. LuiKhuntek 18:17, 12 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Moving proposal

Hi there...It seems that there is no definitive consensus to move the article yet, as such I'm going to remove the move request that is currently pending. Please add the move request again if consensus to move has occurred. Thanks! --HappyCamper 20:48, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, there is a slight ambiguity in the definition of "consensus" on the move page. It states about 60% is consensus. At the top, we have 2 votes to 1, or about 66% consensus. If everyone is comfortable with the move, please leave me a message to expedite the move fix. --HappyCamper 20:56, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I would prefer not to move. It seems this is a larger issue. Somewhere I saw the question whether Rio Negro, Weisse Elster, should be translatd to Black River, White Elster. I prefer: no move until there is a policy. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 03:43, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

There is a proposed guideline under discussion (in which you have already been involved) at Wikipedia:Request for comment/Naming conventions (subnational entities) and other places linked to from the RfC. I agree that this move should not take place while the guideline is at this stage of discussion. Andrewa 15:05, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was PAGE MOVED per discussion below. -GTBacchus^(talk) 20:48, 30 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

Ash Sharqiyah Province → Eastern Province, Saudi Arabia – there was consensus for this move last year but the move was never made. See above for arguments, few of which have changed. — AjaxSmack 06:52, 24 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

Support as nominator per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English). — AjaxSmack 06:52, 24 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Support; unlike Rio Negro, this is the form used in English. Septentrionalis 16:25, 24 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Add any additional comments

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

List of governorates

I have added a list of governorates in Eastern Province as officially stated . Brokenlove 22:39, 3 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Request

Please do not delete sourced material about the rate of Shia population in the province. Instead, consider provide other sourced material falsifying it. Thanks.Egeymi (talk) 14:35, 24 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Shia Population?

Nothing about the Shia population which is vastly underrepresented in jobs and surpassed by the government in the Eastern Province. Why's that? Should there be a "Politics" section or information added to the "Demographics" part explaining more on the sectarian nature of the province? 85.99.240.253 (talk) 20:54, 23 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Region or Province

In Saudi Arabia only the term REGION (منطقة) is used both administratively and colloquially. I do not know where did the term PROVINCE (مقاطعة) come from? عمر خالد 8888 (talk) 22:23, 22 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 6 September 2020

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus for the move proposed, and this is not the proper venue to determine a move for all of the other titles currently using "Region"; I will initiate a proper move request now. BD2412 T 03:08, 29 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Eastern Province, Saudi Arabia → Eastern Region, Saudi Arabia – The other emirate-level subdivisions of Saudi Arabia are all titled with the word "region", not "province" or "emirate". This one should be consistent with those others. 50.248.234.77 (talk) 23:15, 6 September 2020 (UTC) 50.248.234.77 (talk) 23:15, 6 September 2020 (UTC)—Relisting. —usernamekiran (talk) 15:48, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Oppose: First, you did not provide any citations supporting your request. Second, they should all be moved to "XYZ Province," because those are the names used by a) the Ministry of Interior;^[1] b) by most people residing in these emirates; and, c) the emirates themselves. --AccordingClass (talk) 07:23, 8 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I don't actually have a strong preference for any of the three common terms, I only want them to be consistently titled on Wikipedia. This is currently the only one that doesn't use the "region" terminology, so I nominated it to bring it in line with the majority usage. 50.248.234.77 (talk) 12:42, 8 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Look, I agree, but the fact that Wikipedia is dominated by American/western editors makes it impossible to get move requests approved. I tried getting Mecca Region moved to Makkah Province, because that is the official name, but no one responded to my request and in the end someone decided to not move it. --AccordingClass (talk) 14:06, 8 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It wasn't the region/province thing that was the issue there; it was moving Mecca (common name in English-language sources) to Makkah (rarely used in English-language sources). -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:46, 16 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Necrothesp: Consider this, is it Mecca + Province or "Makkah Province," additionally, the fact that these subdivisions were created by Saudi Arabia for Saudi Arabian administration tells me that we should use the name used by them, no? Or, ok, I'm willing to compromise, just make them all "XYZ Province" and yall choose XYZ I don't really care... I'm about to give up on this issue smh. --AccordingClass (talk) 16:14, 17 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. I agree these articles should all be moved to one name or the other. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:14, 8 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

References

^ https://www.moi.gov.sa/wps/portal/Home/emirates/!ut/p/z1/04_Sj9CPykssy0xPLMnMz0vMAfIjo8ziLQPdnT08TIy83Q0dzQwcPc2N_A08TQ3dPY30wwkpiAJKG-AAjgZA_VFgJc7ujh4m5j4GBhY-7qYGno4eoUGWgcbGBo7GUAV4zCjIjTDIdFRUBAApuVo7/dz/d5/L2dJQSEvUUt3QS80TmxFL1o2XzBJNDRIMTQyS0dBREIwQUEzUTlLNUkxMEw0/. {{cite web}}: Missing or empty |title= (help)

Clarification on "Emirate of the Eastern Province"

There's a confusion in the intro paragraph:

"The Eastern Province (Arabic: المنطقة الشرقية al-Mintaqah ash-Sharqīyah), also known as the Eastern Region, and officially the Emirate of the Eastern Province"

The emirate is not synonymous with the province, or an official name of the province. The emirate is the office of the Emir (governor) of the province. It's a specific government institution.

Furthermore, the source provided links to a webpage for the "Emirate of Eastern Province"., which has no text at all and does not say that the official name of the province is "Emirate of the Eastern Province".

So I've removed this phrase from the intro paragraph. High surv (talk) 17:28, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

[1] ttps://www.moi.gov.sa/wps/portal/Home/emirates/!ut/p/z1/04_Sj9CPykssy0xPLMnMz0vMAfIjo8ziLQPdnT08TIy83Q0dzQwcPc2N_A08TQ3dPY30wwkpiAJKG-AAjgZA_VFgJc7ujh4m5j4GBhY-7qYGno4eoUGWgcbGBo7GUAV4zCjIjTDIdFRUBAApuVo7/dz/d5/L2dJQSEvUUt3QS80TmxFL1o2XzBJNDRIMTQyS0dBREIwQUEzUTlLNUkxMEw0/. {{cite web}}: Missing or empty |title= (help)

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