Talk:List of animated series with LGBT characters: 2020–present

Confirmation and the use of secondary sources

I'm posting this to head off any criticism of this article that secondary sources are used to prove the LGBTQ identities of the characters listed on this page. This is similar to what I posted on the List of animated series with LGBTQ characters talk page, but I am posting it here as well. According to WP:YTCOPYRIGHT, specifically the original research section,

All material in Wikipedia articles must be attributable to a reliable published source. This means a reliable published source must exist for it, whether or not it is cited in the article. Sources must support the material clearly and directly: drawing inferences from multiple sources to advance a novel position is prohibited by the NOR policy. Base articles largely on reliable secondary sources. While primary sources are appropriate in some cases, relying on them can be problematic. For more information, see the Primary, secondary, and tertiary sources section of the NOR policy, and the Misuse of primary sources section of the BLP policy.

Furthermore, on WP:NOR, it says:

Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources and primary sources. Secondary or tertiary sources are needed to establish the topic's notability and to avoid novel interpretations of primary sources. All analyses and interpretive or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary or tertiary source, and must not be an original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors.

As such, citing sources like CBR, Collider, Anime News Network, Digital Spy, THEM Anime Reviews, and Den of Geek, along with the many others cited on the main page, are totally acceptable. When it comes to anime, official sites often are limited in the characters they talk about (usually only the protagonists, not the secondary characters for the most part) or give the characters biographies by putting text within images, making translation of the text impossible unless you are fluent in Japanese. This also means that primary sources are NOT necessarily needed to show the LGBTQ identity of any of the characters listed on this page. Such sources are nice, like in the cases of The Owl House, Kipo, Patalliro, Q-Force, Asteroid in Love, and Distant Lands, but they are not always available, especially if the show is an anime or is relatively obscure, and are also not necessary!

I just thought I'd point this out before some editor comes along and tries to remove content here. Historyday01 (talk) 04:19, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

Beckett Mariner

Correct me if I am wrong, I have only watched the series once, but I recall that Beckett Mariner on Star Trek Lower Decks had something to do with an all-nude male Olympic program and at a different time was briefly acting flirtatious to a male crew member, which would mean that she is bisexual and not lesbian. Though I could be wrong about this. Tyler Michael Mannix (talk) 01:35, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

@Tyler Michael Mannix, you have a point there, but I only said "bisexual or lesbian" because her identity has not been confirmed on the show directly (hopefully that happens in season 2). I agree with you that she seems to be bi from what I can tell, but I just wanted to leave it open. That was my thought on it at least.--Historyday01 (talk) 16:24, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Korvo and Terry from Solar Opposites are a couple.

I look at everything about Korvo and Terry were confirmed to be bisexual by the crew. They were genderless but they're confirmed to be bisexual. They share a kiss in season 2, episode 2. Cabutchikas (talk) 18:57, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

Hmm, Cabutchikas, thanks for your post. So, I looked it up, and Korvo and Terry are definitely confirmed to be a couple, as a March 2021 interview in Inverse with Justin Roiland and Mike McMahan:

The answer was surprisingly simple. The two Solar Opposites characters were never meant to be a couple, but over the course of two seasons, that’s exactly what they’ve become. “I think we didn't know when we started writing it, but at this point, I'd say yeah,” Justin Roiland tells Inverse. “I mean, they don't have penises or buttholes, but they are in a committed relationship. They do love each other. They do go on vacation together. They pay the bills together.” “When they launched off of Shlorp they weren't a couple,” McMahan adds, “but I think after living on Earth for so long, they love each other. That's how we write them, you know?” “Yeah, their partners,” Roiland concludes. “I think they're like, beautiful partners.”

And Roiland confirmed both of them as "A-sexual genderless aliens" meaning they asexually reproduce, not that they are asexual. I'm not seeing anything about them confirming they are bi, but... perhaps it is out there and I didn't find it yet. If you could find that, that would be great. In any case, since it began in June 2020, I just added an entry for them on the main page. Like all wikipedia pages, it can change and be updated at any time. --Historyday01 (talk) 22:47, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

Izetta from Izetta: The Last Witch

Izetta from Izetta: The Last Witch should be added. According to this article, she's lesbian. —ÐW^(T·C) 18:48, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

Dan Wescher, Oh I agree and I DID add her, but not to this article, because this one is 2020-Present, and Izetta: The Last Witch (which is one of my favorite shows by the way) aired in 2016, but the 2016-2019 article. Yeah, I definitely would not forget Izetta. --Historyday01 (talk) 21:53, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Her placement on the original list was also speculative, as she was only added based on shiping interpretations, which is not an authoritative source. Solaire the knight (talk) 16:41, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

While I would say that review may be a reliable source and I believe we need to make sure the page remains inviting for people so that people will update the page, since there have been some good additions over the past, I wouldn't oppose creating some guidelines for this page and similar ones like it (i.e. List of animated series with LGBT characters: 2010–2014, List of animated series with LGBT characters: 2015–2019, List of animated series with LGBT characters: 2005–2009, List of animated series with LGBT characters: 2000–2004, List of animated series with LGBT characters: 1995–1999, List of animated series with LGBT characters: 1990–1994, and List of animated series with LGBT characters). That's because there are a LOT of entries to manage and I, admittedly, have only done a subpar job at it, even as the creator of those pages in the first place. It was a total disaster zone before I created those pages, but honestly, I don't know if its much better now, and I'd be completely willing to change the page names around (as I'm not even sure if dividing the entries into five year increments is a good idea anymore, as I only did it at the time because it seemed like the "right thing to do" and I never felt like there was anyone I could reach out to for help in creating the pages). Perhaps an edit notice for this page, and others like it, modeled after the one on the inclusion criteria for the List of fictional non-binary characters page would be a good idea?

Currently the only guidelines for the pages are that those listed are either recurring characters and those in the main cast (which I changed at one point from being broader because some person thought it was a good idea to bring one of the pages to an AfD instead of discussing their concerns on a talk page). Ultimately, the List of gay characters in animation, List of gay characters in anime, List of fictional gay characters, List of fictional lesbian characters, List of fictional trans characters, List of fictional bisexual characters, List of fictional pansexual characters, List of fictional asexual characters, List of fictional polyamorous characters, List of fictional aromantic characters, List of fictional intersex characters, List of lesbian characters in animation, List of bisexual characters in animation, List of lesbian characters in anime, List of bisexual characters in anime, and related pages should ALL have edit notices, but that would take a while to get that all together, and tailor the edit notices to every single page. And there's no guarantee that those edit notices would be approved through consensus either.Historyday01 (talk) 21:04, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

I don't even want to look into that abyss, because if they're as bad as the lists I've seen (of which at least half are based on speculation and shiping), then I risk a heart attack. As I said earlier, only the authors themselves or the people behind the adaptation can serve as a sufficient authoritative source. Interpretations of media, especially modern ones with culture wars and a huge bias, obviously cannot serve as such. You might as well add half the nakama-titles here because they don't say anything about the sexuality of the characters for obvious reasons and there are always plenty of people willing to interpret the show as gay. Solaire the knight (talk) 21:13, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

Hmm, ok. As I'll ask again, do you think an edit notice for the page would be a good idea? I will say that sometimes it can be challenging to find "sufficient authoritative source[s]" and secondary sources can sometimes be the only thing you can go on. Of course, there's continual interpretations of media, but I don't think secondary sources should be dismissed outright and completely, as I do think they have some value. Historyday01 (talk) 21:18, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

If you don't have confirmation from the author, or the example isn't as obvious as Yamai in Komi, then I'd post controversial examples here before adding them. Mutual discussion is much better and more useful than consensus after an edit war or reverts of edits with interaction via edit comments. Moreover, as the situation with Ymir and Krista shows (the producer declared the characters a couple without the knowledge of the author, and he subsequently destroyed the ship and brought Krista with a man), cases can be really confusing and require discussion. Solaire the knight (talk) 21:39, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

Ok, that could work. I'd be fine with posting controversial examples here before adding them. That makes sense. Historyday01 (talk) 21:40, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

Series with TBA duration/start dates or have not premiered

These are series we don't know the exact release dates yet, or they have not premiered yet (and have said dates), so they are being moved here until these series have definite character debut and duration dates. Some will be moved to the main page when they have those dates.

Duration	Show title	Character debut date	Characters	Identity	Notes	Country
TBA	S.A.L.E.M.: The Secret Archive of Legends, Enchantments, and Monsters	TBA	Salem	Non-binary	A non-binary cryptid who begins their journey to find out who they really are after learning they are adopted. In October 2020, Salem was also confirmed as pansexual. Series creator Samantha "Sam" Sawyer described Salem as excitable, willing to learn, and has a "thirst for knowledge."	United States
				Pansexual
			Oliver	Gay	A wannabe photographer of cryptids and confirmed as a gay character before the series aired.
			Petra	Asexual	A psychic medium terrified of ghosts who was confirmed as an asexual character before the series aired.
TBA	Lumberjanes	TBA	Jo	Trans woman	This animated adaptation of the comic book series of the same name, features Jo, the first trans female main character ever in an animated series geared towards children.
			Molly	Lesbian or Bisexual	Two other female main characters who identify as either bisexual or lesbian, are Molly and Mal, who both have requited crushes on each other.
			Mal

Will not be added to page at this time

(see below discussion at "Jellyfish" sub-section and here as to why this is the case)

Duration	Show title	Character debut date	Characters	Identity	Notes	Country
2024	Jellyfish Can't Swim in the Night	April 7, 2024	Kano Yamanouchi	Lesbian	Also known as Nonoka Tachibana, she serves as the vocalist and lyricist for JELEE. In the fifth episode, Kano kisses Mahiru on the cheek. Later she hangs out with Mahiru on the beach, using her newly-acquired motorcycle license, and calls Mahiru just to hear her voice. Although she attempts to "close the distance" between her and Mahiru in "her own way" as noted by her voice actor Rie Takahashi, she and Mahiru go their separate ways at the end of the ninth episode, after Kanon's "emotions suddenly come out." The show's official website says that meeting Mahiru changes her values, allowing her to "discover what she can do to be herself." As Mahiru's voice actor Miku Itō noted in one interview, "the more Kanon shines, the more depressed Mahiru becomes."	Japan
			Mahiru Kōzuki		Also known as Yoru Umitsuki, she returns to drawing after meeting Kano, and becomes JELEE's illustrator. She has unresolved "strong feelings" for Kano, as noted by her voice actor Miku Itō. Both are torn apart after she takes a job for Kano's demanding mother, Yukine Hayakawa, for a competing band, managed by Yukine, named Sunflower Dolls. The show's official website says that her encounter with Kano made her "life special again." During one interview, voice actor Miyuri Shimabukuro, who voices Mei "Kim Anouk" Takanashi, described the relations between Yoru and Mahiru as "like an old married couple."
		April 14, 2024	Mei "Kim Anouk" Takanashi	Lesbian	She is a mega-fan of Kano Yamanouchi and serves as the composer for JELEE. On the official website, it says that after she met Kano in real life, "complex emotions began to sprout." Her love for Kano exploded in the tenth episode.

References

Jellyfish

Phew, I finally got here. Well, initially my criticism was based on the fact that we essentially do not have a single sufficient source. Only reviewers' interpretations or various pieces of text or plot descriptions put together that were interpreted as a direct statement about their relationship/identity due to the fact that it simply affirms their importance to each other and the strength of their friendship (the fact that the characters communicate as an “old married couple” or contributed to each other’s development and self-realization does not make them a couple). Overall, this just seems like a bunch of shibaple "evidence" to confirm the ship instead of directly confirming the status of the characters bond. But then, after thinking about a more compromise option, I thought that given the author’s position (“whether it’s yuri or not depends on the viewer”), I want to offer an option where we simply describe the characters’ meaningful friendship and indicate that the author left their relationship open, suggesting whether they should be considered platonic or romantic by the audience itself. If the author himself invites the audience to draw their own conclusions, then why argue about it? Although I don’t know if there were such precedents when compiling lists in the past. The same goes for Mei, with the author specifically describing her admiration as a "strong emotional feeling" as an example of his refusal to describe characters' experiences as platonic or romantic. As for Watase, I have no problem describing her as non-binary, since she seems to canonically embrace her vituber avatar as part of her/their identity. Solaire the knight (talk) 17:08, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

I agree with you on that. I think saying Watase is non-binary makes sense and fits with the existing series. This series was a bit frustrating in the respect that it did not confirm Kano, Mahiru, or Mei as lesbian directly, its still in that "open to interpretation" category. I still liked the series, but there isn't enough here to justify adding any of those three characters to the list. Historyday01 (talk) 19:07, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

From what I heard, the next big event is expected in October, so if you want we can add Watase, and save the conversation about the other characters until October and future news or announcements. Solaire the knight (talk) 19:14, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Ok, that makes sense. I'm fine with that. I separated off the other three characters and put them under "Will not be added to page at this time" subsection (see above), so they aren't part of the rest of the table... Historyday01 (talk) 19:19, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for understanding :). If you are looking for a non-obviously gay show with obviously gay show business characters, then you can try "VTuber Nandaga Haishin Kiri Wasuretara Densetsu ni Natteta". The original web novel even had a GL tag, but then for some reason it disappeared during licensing. Solaire the knight (talk) 19:32, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the recommendation. I'll definitely have to check it out. Historyday01 (talk) 20:25, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Proposed merge of Animated series with LGBT characters: 2020s with List of animated series with LGBT characters: 2020–present

Both pages do not need to exist, and most information would do better if it was moved here to the list article if there is any that needs to be merged at all, given the other article's length. aaronneallucas (talk) 01:53, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

Hmm. As the person who created the "Animated series with LGBT characters: 2020s" in late 2020, the original idea was to structure it like the Animated series with LGBT characters: 2010s, so my thinking was that eventually this page would become "List of animated series with LGBT characters: 2020-2024", then there would be another page entitled "List of animated series with LGBT characters: 2024-2029". However, in retrospect, the "Animated series with LGBT characters: 2020s" page would probably help people better if it was merged into this page. So, in sum, the merge would be a good idea. Historyday01 (talk) 19:39, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

Support: In only a month, we'll enter 2023, which still isn't even the halfway point of this decade, so I would suggest merging the two pages. If / when the pages becomes too big, then maybe we can rethink about separating anything. PanagiotisZois (talk) 17:18, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

Agreed. It is a good idea. Historyday01 (talk) 21:13, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

New list - old problems

This sheet is relatively new, however it still repeats all the old problems of similar sheets, like adding characters due to shiping and interpretation, or referring to media speculation, or simply misunderstanding the context of the original show. For example, a character who is accidentally reborn in another world as a woman is added as a trans male. Solaire the knight (talk) 16:40, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, that's a fair point. I don't add as many entries on this page as I used to, and often its IP address users, and I have to pick up the pieces, as it was the case for the Karnatia Anabald and Ikuyo Kita entries. Sadly, the page has become basically dominated by IP addresses now (that's the case for most the pages like one now). And I admit that similar sheets have similar issues, but honestly it would be a lot of work to fix those issues. I've even thought of creating a task force just for these lists, but haven't got around to it. From my understanding (as the Gizmodo and Pride.com articles stated), Suletta Mercury and Miorine Rembran are queer, so that's why it made sense to have entries for them, and the Anime News Network reviews here, here, here, here, and here seem to support that. As for Kita, I saw you said that you would be fine with adding her if it's "less speculative and more reasonable than "she's attracted to an androgynous looking woman, so she's a lesbian". It's not that difficult really. You can describe her as a queer, pointing out that although her sexuality is never mentioned, she has no problem discussing and crushing another woman. She knows very well that Ryo is a woman." So, that entry would just need to be re-written, if I'm understanding correctly?

As for media interpretation, I would say it is fine, if its done within reason. Not every show, especially anime, is going to state on official websites that characters are queer. And sometimes they do say it, but you can't grab the text and translate it (as it is uploaded to the website as an image for some inane reason), from my experience. So I would have to disagree with your contention that "feedback articles in anime media are not an authoritative source for this" as they CAN be an authoritative source, if used within reason, and carefully used. Are there any other examples on the main page which you would say fall into the issues you are pointing out? Otherwise, I can agree that the page needs work, but its a matter of having the time to make the page better, sigh. Historyday01 (talk) 20:39, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

If I were to consider as gay and lesbian all the characters who are considered as such by ANN or pro-left media, then this list already had more than half of any shows with female protagonists or mono-gender cast. Even if we turn a blind eye to the blatant shipping and political bias of these resources, they are simply not authoritative, because they are not connected with the creation of the show and publish their INTERPRETATIONS of it. Also, one of your sources is literally trying to get on the hype of the first episode after its premiere, that is, in general, before the current plot. It's ridiculous. You may agree with the interpretation of this or that resource or not, but this is still the interpretation of journalists, not the authors themselves. And the interpretation is often very biased or outright laughable, if you take ANN alone, whose "this week in anime" column at the time consisted of trying to interpret anything as gay in the best possible way (I know a bunch of shows where they described characters as gay just because they were idealized BFFs or had emotionally important friendships). The members of the anime project have already explained this to you several times during past discussions, but you don't seem to understand. Wikipedia is written on the basis of authoritative sources. And in the case of fiction, this can only be the author himself, in no case by outsiders interpreting him. Solaire the knight (talk) 21:21, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I don't mind rewriting the Keith section in the context of Ryo's androgyny and the fact that outside of this show nothing is said about her sexuality. Unlike G-Witch, whose characters have shown a clear interest in men and whose relationships have context and are still ambiguous, the Kita example should not be problematic if described normally. As for anonymous IPs (sorry, didn't notice that part of your post right away), this is a typical consequence of a popular wiki page without much control. People just take this page as a fan list where you can add any characters that seem gay to them. That's why it looks so much like the Ho Yay page of some major franchise on TV Tropes. I'm not going to jump into it, but I would advise you to delete anything based on plot interpretation or ANN reviews. Solaire the knight (talk) 21:31, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

Hmm, ok. On the one hand, while I don't want to remove a whole bunch of entries, I'll at least take a look at the entries on this page at least (doing it for all of the related pages would take some time). However, I don't think that's ultimately sustainable to just rely on my own effort, so I would at least at least have a discussion, considering how well-trafficked this page is, and how many people have contributed to this over the years, about proposing a possible edit notice, as there are way too many entries. I originally was not in favor of it on the List of fictional non-binary characters page, but I'm coming around to the idea of it being used for this page, as it could be used to limit the amount of entries on these pages, which, admittedly, is a bit out of control, partially because I was super excited back in 2019 and 2020, and tried to add whatever I could find. Historyday01 (talk) 21:38, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

I do not require you to delete anything, I just deleted what caused outrage in me personally. But yes, the idea of ​​discussing such lists, along with drawing attention to the abuse of shipping and speculation towards non-Western media, could be an interesting idea. As for G-Witch, I think that this show should be forgotten at least until the season 2 finale, which will clearly bring their relationship to a close. At least I hope so, since Ichiro Okuchi doesn't seem like a blatant troll enough to end this with an open ending. The wait is not long, the premiere of the second cour will be in April. Solaire the knight (talk) 21:43, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

Oh ok. I started G-Witch, but I have such a backlog in shows I'm watching, I didn't finish it, but I've enjoyed The Magical Revolution of the Reincarnated Princess and the Genius Young Lady and a bunch of other yurish shows (Ippon Again!, D4DJ, etc.), but I don't think any of them, apart from the first one, would even have entries on here as they only have yuri subtext but no confirmed lesbian characters. That's in contrast to shows like The Proud Family: Louder and Prouder which has some prominent (and confirmed) LGBTQ characters. Historyday01 (talk) 21:56, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

Ippon Again was never a yuri-ish show, it's a typical female version of your typical nakama-power sports shonens. According to the Japanese Wikipedia, the original manga is even openly promoted as a non-romance work. The problem is that because of the cute all-female cast, many people mistakenly perceive it as a sports CGDCT with all the consequences. In general, a typical case is when people read nakama-power as a yuri subtext due to misguided expectations (Not to mention that subtext doesn't necessarily lead to any intent, remember Jump Bishonen Syndrome and its influence on shows like Saint Seiya or Prince of Tennis). With D4DJ, things are much simpler, it's an all-female mixed media franchise, so ship-bait and sexualization of formally platonic relationships is quite expected there. Solaire the knight (talk) 22:03, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

That's fair with Ippon Again, and I'm honestly not hoping for much in terms of being yuri-ish (or none at all), but I can agree with you when it comes to D4DJ. Historyday01 (talk) 01:55, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

Well, there are a few vaguely canon bisexual characters in the show/game at the moment, one is queer-coded (depending on how you interpret her gimmick) and as far as I can see from the first two episodes, the anime adds another one, drastically increasing the ship bait on her part. So, as people in my country say - "there is where to roam." The rest is a matter of shiping to your taste. D4DJ can hardly be called a yuri franchise, but with ambiguously queer characters in every unit (not counting Unicord with the canon lesbian couple and Mermeid, who are just sexualized in general) and being more pushy in terms of ship tease, it clearly stands out from Bandori and Review. Solaire the knight (talk) 02:31, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

I think Suletta Mercury and Miorine Rembran should be re-added. Historyday01, you did provide enough evidence that the two are both queer. 162.40.51.236 (talk) 17:21, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

I mean, I would think so, but I can surely look into it again. Historyday01 (talk) 19:08, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

First of all, this is not the place for shiping discussions about "evidence" (This is not even touching on the fact that the characters were erroneously listed as lesbians despite being openly interested in men of one kind or another, or that the first reference pointed to superficial conclusions after the premiere of the first episode). Secondly, links with episode reviews were indicated as sources, the inadmissibility of which has already been discussed repeatedly both here and around other articles. Something can only be considered an authoritative source if it comes from people directly involved in creating the characters/story, or at least producing the title. Reviews are secondary sources and are nothing more than assessments or interpretations of the work. I can only once again suggest that this issue be postponed until the end of the second season so as not to waste time arguing about how we interpret certain scenes and the intentions of the authors. Solaire the knight (talk) 20:24, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps so. I was only going to look on the official site for the series to see if it said anything in the character descriptions as I was guessing it might say something, but as I've noted earlier in this discussion, sometimes official sites say nothing. So I'm fine with leaving it off the list for now. Historyday01 (talk) 21:29, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

I suspect this is deliberately left ambiguous as a intrigue, and even if it isn't, we still won't be able to figure it out before the show's finale. For example, when ANN asked the director of PriPri, another show by the same writer, it turned out that the relationship was written as platonic, but they deliberately left it ambiguous to allow people to interpret it however they want. In general, it's easier to wait for the final, I think that at least it won't get an open final. Solaire the knight (talk) 21:38, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

I meant queer as in vague sexuality, not that the characters are lesbians. 162.40.51.236 (talk) 01:00, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

This is outright speculation about the sexuality of the characters, which is all the more prohibited. Not to mention, if we start adding to such lists (as a queer) all anime characters whose sexuality or gender is capable of causing any doubt, then they will become more than the Library of Alexandria. Especially given the current tendency of people and journalists to speculate about it. Solaire the knight (talk) 02:31, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

I think it's time to add Suletta and Miorine back in. Episode 17 lines in with various Yuri tropes. If you disagree with it then I don't know what to tell you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.117.199.175 (talk) 23:52, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

Still interpretations, not actual confirmation. I remind you that only direct confirmation in the show or on the part of the writers can be considered sufficient, not someone else's "based on tropes" interpretations. If we use episode reviews like this on ANN, then all all-female shows will be considered yuri. Suffice it to recall how they tried to find an "explicit" yuri subtext in Aquatop because of the popular misunderstanding that going to the aquarium is a yuri trope. Not to mention the many other problems with this approach, but I'm not going to be like ANN and turn it into a place of speculation by bypassing direct confirmation. So I once again propose to wait for the final of the show, there is not much left. Solaire the knight (talk) 06:19, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

If I remember right, for Aquatope, the reviewer just say they were interpreting it as yuri from their viewpoint and while I, personally, agreed with their viewpoint, I can say, after watching the whole anime, that there wasn't any direct confirmation (arguably no indirect confirmation, unless you'd see there as yuri subtext there, but that isn't enough for a character to be on this page or any related page), and it was VERY easy to just say they were just friends in the end. Historyday01 (talk) 23:48, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

No, there was literally a classic loophole like "there is no romance on the show, but I want it to be, so I will convince myself that it is romance with subtext." Shippers use this very often, because it allows them to at least abstractly insist on their ship in the absence of direct confirmation. For example, prior to the final destruction of the yuri, many insisted that KumiRei was canon due to the subtext because Yamada used homoerotic metaphors to emphasize the importance of their friendship. This is another problem with this, because even if the show does have a yuri subtext, it doesn't mean it's being used to establish characters as lovers. Solaire the knight (talk) 07:29, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

Right, that makes sense. Some shows have yuri subtext but clearly it isn't use to establish the characters as lovers. One example I can think of is Birdie Wing, where there is clear yuri subtext, but I'm pretty sure they aren't establishing the characters as lovers (just very good friends). Historyday01 (talk) 12:49, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

It depends on each show individually really. But more people should definitely be aware that even in Western culture, homoerotic subtext are not limited to "hidden" statements about characters' sexuality. For example, the very idea of ​​bromance in media is literally romantic metaphors to demonstrate the importance of characters' friendship. Solaire the knight (talk) 13:43, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

That's true. It definitely depends on each show individually. Historyday01 (talk) 19:08, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Its over

The show is finally over, so thanks for not having to wait long for the now actual addition of Miorine and Suletta to the article. Thank you for really agreeing to wait until the finale. I removed a source that mostly speculates about events that didn't affect the sexuality of the characters until their relationship was confirmed in season 2 (forced engagement to another girl doesn't make you gay yet), and also removed the twitter's headcanon about Miorine as a pure lesbian (for example, she is clearly resentful of Shaddiq and tells him "too late" when he asks her about the possibility of romance at least in the past) and links to secondary sources from an overview of this, since what was directly shown directly in the show does not need to be confirmed and these references are best left for the future for the development of the "acceptance" section in the article about the show itself. The only thing is that Gundam info is mostly region-blocked for me, so I won't mind if someone puts links to the 11th, 17th, 22nd episodes and the July 2nd stream. As a source, this would be the best. Solaire the knight (talk) 21:01, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

That's fair. This is a good source as well, as the only other review on Anime Feminist is of the early episodes, and some other mentions here. Another good source may be James Whitbrook's article in Gizmodo, or those in ANN Historyday01 (talk) 02:03, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Wwe are not talking about a review of the show (especially for early episodes checking from political sites, considering what topic we're talking about, it's pretty thin ice), but only about basic links to episodes, at least on the same YouTube. As a last resort, ANN reviews episodes, because despite the bias, this is at least enough for a general look. Thank goodness the show didn't have an open ending in its portrayal of their relationship, so we can't be afraid to dig into interpretations. Solaire the knight (talk) 04:29, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

References

Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur

The character revealed to be nonbinary in "Check Yourself" was not Brooklyn, it was Tai. When the computer says their pronouns are they/them, Lunella remarks "Oh, just like Tai!" then it cuts to Tai cheering for Lunella. Tai is voiced by nonbinary voice actor Ian Alexander. Also, the computer, whose name escapes me right now, was voiced by Asia Kate Dillon. Furthermore, Brooklyn has not spoken on screen yet to my knowledge, but was seen with a "Trans Is Beautiful" sticker. Bocchitherockjohnson (talk) 13:57, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

You are right about that. I'll make that correction. Historyday01 (talk) 19:33, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

You don't need separate topics for such questions, just change it yourself and write the reason in the comment. Solaire the knight (talk) 19:34, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Ok. I think in this case, a separate topic is fine. Historyday01 (talk) 20:21, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Thanks so much for this edit. The character Dillon voices in that ep is LOS-307. Its not my favorite show, but Dillon voiced Val/entina Romanyszyn in Gen:Lock. I would also say that Brooklyn should not be re-added until they appear in more episodes. Oh, as a cool fact, this is the second animated character Indya Moore voiced, as they voiced Shep in the "Little Graduation" episode of Steven Universe Future! Historyday01 (talk) 01:12, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Brooklyn has actually appeared in two episodes. 162.40.51.236 (talk) 22:41, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, but Brooklyn hasn't had any lines yet (not from what I remember), and is basically a background character, at least for now. Historyday01 (talk) 01:01, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Characters from Assault Lily Bouquet need to be readded

I'm suggesting it because no one wants me to remove the sole reference to that anime. 98.19.248.179 (talk) 01:11, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

The preview of the first episode, with some quick feedback from ANN members, is a very blurry and superficial source (especially with a very general justification like "one girl is in love with another girl" and a reference to that girl, as if someone else's lesbian crush makes you a lesbian). The show is known (and clearly implied) as a significant yuri bait, so I think adding a more detailed description with a link to later episode reviews will not cause anyone any problems. Solaire the knight (talk) 04:56, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Exactly. When I have time, I'll try and go through the related lists of animated series with LGBT characters pages with this in mind, as there are definitely some questionable entries on there, which often rely on only one review and not much else... Historyday01 (talk) 12:48, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

It's not even about questionable evidence, as far as I remember, the show does have gay content. Just a link to a preview of the first episode where people just write "hmm looks gay" is not enough. You might remember a recent G-Witch where the ending was quite helpful in determining the nature of things, but people tried to declare the characters a lesbian couple based on the mere fact of a forced engagement or shippers' tweets. This is why I often suggest waiting for the finale or later episodes to have more solid evidence that will either prove things or disprove them. Solaire the knight (talk) 13:41, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Right, that makes sense. I just went through the 2020 character this morning and removed a good number of them, mostly because the sources were things like "Hypebeast". Historyday01 (talk) 20:11, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

LGBTQ terminology to describe shows that don't use it

I have noticed that a number of examples use very specific terminology, while the show in question either does not use it or explicitly refers to its own cultural definitions or attitudes. For example, I'm confused by the phrase "designated male at birth" for a trans female anime character who has no issues with her biological gender and even openly asks questions like "do your friends know I'm male". What do you think? Should we use Western terminology anyway or try to describe things closer to the plot and culture of non-Western works? Solaire the knight (talk) 04:22, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

I think it would probably be better to describe things closer to the plot and culture of non-Western works if at possible. In terms of Nao, I do remember in the subtitles she describes herself as "biologically born male". Historyday01 (talk) 13:20, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Then what option do you offer? Return literally "biological male" or do you think that the current version does not change things much to start an edit war over this? Solaire the knight (talk) 13:37, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Hmm. I think the current version is fine. Historyday01 (talk) 14:51, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Okay, then let's leave it as it is, you helped a lot. I thought about canceling the user's edit, but it's better to compromise after the discussion than create have another reason for an edit war. Solaire the knight (talk) 15:29, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Sure. Planning to slowly go through the other lists, year by year, like I did on this page. Historyday01 (talk) 15:36, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

How do we describe transgender and non-binary identities less offensively?

I heard that "identify as transgender or non-binary" is a microaggression. How do we rewrite descriptions of transgender or non-binary characters to make their identities more valid? 67.140.48.59 (talk) 00:16, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Helluva Boss Pride Month 2024 and the characters’ sexualities.

There's more characters' canon sexualities are confirmed in this tweet. Cabutchikas (talk) 00:48, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for sharing that. Historyday01 (talk) 01:37, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

We can't use it. Users who edit the article for the Helluva Boss article said no. They're still labeling Stolas as queer rather than gay. 173.189.173.12 (talk) 00:47, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Senpai Is an Otokonoko

Should we change Aoi and Ryuji's sexuality to just queer? As of now, the anime has never specified their sexuality. The fact that Aoi doesn't care about senpai's gender due to bisexuality rather than pansexuality, for example, or that Ryuuji is only attracted to men are based on the conclusions of the reviewers, which, as far as I remember, was considered by the anime project to be insufficient to make a definitive statement about the characters' identity. At the same time, we can clearly talk about their queerness, since Aoi had no problems with being attracted to "girls", and Ryuji clearly rejected the idea that he could only like Makoto because of his female appearance. But I haven’t touched the text yet, because perhaps there are sources that I missed or the manga says something about this? Solaire the knight (talk) 15:57, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm ok with changing it to queer. And in the anime, I don't think the protagonist has come out as non-binary (as apparently happened in the manga). Historyday01 (talk) 17:12, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Did we mention Makoto somewhere? As far as I can see, the anonymous person only added Aoi and Ryuji. The author himself was vocal about Makoto being a cis guy, as he wanted to emphasize that most "regular" guys can also be interested in cute and girly things, but as far as I know, the manga still explores Makoto's gender later on. In particular, the latest episode of the anime mentions a scene where Makoto tries to explore how meaningful his "female personality" is to him. Solaire the knight (talk) 17:17, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Ah, ok. I've been falling a little behind in keeping up with the series, as I'm trying to finish another series (not an anime), but eventually I'll get to it. Historyday01 (talk) 19:04, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't know if that counts, but I wouldn't mind if you added him as exploring his gender or gender representation. Anyway, then we can simply rewrite or expand this after the ending of the anime/manga. Solaire the knight (talk) 19:18, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Ah ok. That's a good idea. I'll do that. Historyday01 (talk) 19:53, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

It looks like we could include Makoto, as he said in the final episode, in a poignant scene, "Dad asked me earlier if I wanted to live as a boy. Or if I wanted to live as a girl. And I finally found the answer. I don't want to live as either. I... I want to live as myself. I'm a boy but I like things girls like." Historyday01 (talk) 12:53, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

And what kind of identity do you want to use, given that Makoto still fully embraces his male gender? I think that “with a very strong desire” we can have some options, but not too carried away so that it does not turn into original research. Solaire the knight (talk) 13:46, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Regarding the anonymous words. As far as I understand, the original article also does not directly provide source the characters' identities, simply doing original research based on their actions in the plot. So, should we somehow rewrite this too? Solaire the knight (talk) 20:25, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes, we should rewrite that as well. Historyday01 (talk) 00:26, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Hunter and Willow Park from TOH are both LGBTQ+

Hunter and Willow are a couple. However, Dana Terrance on a Instagram Live said that Hunter is Bisexual and Willow is Pansexual. https://x.com/memorywitches/status/1652157432586444800?s=61&t=fQhsv2gyXjDhxHeiuQdX6w Link to the live. Hunter also wears a bi pin when in Connecticut with Luz and the friend group. MiitomoChris (talk) 15:14, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

If I remember correctly, I removed them because I felt the sourcing wasn't strong enough. Honestly that's generally why I remove entries these days. Historyday01 (talk) 16:42, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

You are indeed remembering correctly. I have just re-added the two entries, but now with the addition of secondary sourcing. – Jamie Eilat (talk) 17:48, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

We clearly need to discuss sources again. Because in about 5-6 days I'm going to have to remove that same Saki example, since people seem to keep using original research based on random scenes or reviewers' interpretations instead of authoritative sources on the topic. Solaire the knight (talk) 18:35, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

I have to agree. I'm not sure those two entries are that much better now. In any case, I would support their removal until better sourcing can be found, and if not, they should not be re-added.Historyday01 (talk) 02:52, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

What about Zooble?

I was wondering if Zooble would be added because Zooble is genderqueer and voiced by pansexual and non-binary Ashley Nichols, from The Amazing Digital Circus. Cabutchikas (talk) 19:09, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

As I say with many other possible entries, if there are reliable sources which show that, it would be fine. Oh and speaking of Ashley Nichols, I still have a page for Far-Fetched which I started, but haven't updated it in a while. Historyday01 (talk) 20:07, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure the fact that the VA is queer is an argument, but if you can find a source that it was done intentionally for authenticity, then why not? Solaire the knight (talk) 21:59, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Right, that's my point as well. And usually if a VA is queer it is only added as an extra bit of information in an entry, but it is NOT evidence that a character is automatically queer. Historyday01 (talk) 03:14, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Splitting off 2020-2024 entries into new article when 2025 begins?

Hello everyone! I thought I'd bring in something I proposed at Talk:List of animated series with LGBT characters: 2000–2004#Merge proposal, where it was suggested by @Klbrain to keep at the half-decade format. I wrote that it may be time to make a List of animated series with LGBT characters: 2020–2024 page after 2024 comes to a close since "some series could slip in during this month or next month" and noted that "it is over 25,000 words when I put it into LibreOffice." Does everyone else here think that this proposal makes sense? Or should such a split not happen (when 2025 begins) at all? Your thoughts on this would be appreciated.

cc:@Solaire the knight, @Jamie Eilat, @User:PanagiotisZois @User:Runningman2027, @67.140.49.69, @98.17.91.148, @151.213.68.120, and @Tyler Michael Mannix, @User:GlitchyM., all of which are/were common contributors to this page. I have also posted about this on relevant WikiProjects. Historyday01 (talk) 22:18, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

I think it depends on technical issues. Does this make sense? Solaire the knight (talk) 01:22, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Maybe, but can you please explain more what you mean by "technical issues"? Historyday01 (talk) 01:54, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

I meant that this is a technical issue and if the rules/approach to working on lists requires it, then I'm not against it. Solaire the knight (talk) 14:01, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Oh ok. My understanding is that the page would be relatively large, going over the guidance at WP:TOOBIG, and would necessitate a split. Historyday01 (talk) 15:31, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Support the idea of creating a new article next year starting 2025, following the sequence:

• List of animated series with LGBTQ characters: 2000–2004
• List of animated series with LGBTQ characters: 2005–2009
• List of animated series with LGBTQ characters: 2010–2014
• List of animated series with LGBTQ characters: 2015–2019

For the current page, this would be best implemented by a move of this page to List of animated series with LGBT characters: 2020–2024, which could even be done now. If it is felt that the current page is WP:TOOLONG, I'd recommend trimming the existing content, which largely duplicates the content at the linked articles - some of the summaries seem excessive for a list. Klbrain (talk) 11:13, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Hmm, I suppose it could be done now, but my only concern is that some series could be added this month or next month. But, I can agree that the size of the entries is inconsistent and the size of some entries probably should be reduced. Historyday01 (talk) 12:48, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Maddie Nolen

As far as I can see, the description clearly states that she was the mole all along. So, doesn't this make her final identity moot? Can we say that this wasn't all part of a plan to trick Caitlin into gaining her trust? Solaire the knight (talk) 17:57, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Sure, we can say this was part of a plan to trick Caitlin. I saw somewhere, I think on the Arcane page, they called her a double agent, which is the same as a mole. What are your suggested changes to the existing text to reflect that? The existing text in the entry for Maddie is as follows:

She was a junior officer, in the Enforcers, in Piltover. During the second season, she was shown in a sexual relationship with Caitlyn Kiramman, a fellow enforcer. Later, Maddie and Caitlyn end their relationship. In the finale episode "The Dirt Under Your Nails", Maddie is revealed to be a double agent for Ambessa and betrays Caitlyn. She was going to kill her but ended up getting killed by the bullet, due to Mel's magic. Maddie's voice actor, Katy Townsend, later told The Direct that she knew that the relationship between Maddie and Caitlyn would be controversial, noted that the writer of the episode "Paint the Town Blue", Amanda Overton, told her that "this is gonna cause all kinds of chaos," and further said that even though she is a fan of the Caitlyn/Vi pairing, she "underestimated the extent [of] the chaos that this would cause." She also told the publication that the relationship was not Maddie's responsibility, but that Cait "has a lot to answer for her own choices and decisions" as well.

Here's what a possible change to the entry would look like:

During the second season, Maddie, a junior officer, was shown in a sexual relationship with Caitlyn Kiramman, a fellow enforcer in Piltover. Later, Maddie and Caitlyn end their relationship. In the finale episode "The Dirt Under Your Nails", Maddie is revealed to be a double agent for Ambessa and betrays Caitlyn. She was going to kill her but ended up getting killed by the bullet, due to Mel's magic. Maddie's voice actor, Katy Townsend, later told The Direct that she knew that the relationship between Maddie and Caitlyn would be controversial, noted that the writer of the episode "Paint the Town Blue", Amanda Overton, told her that "this is gonna cause all kinds of chaos," and further said that even though she is a fan of the Caitlyn/Vi pairing, she "underestimated the extent [of] the chaos that this would cause." She also told the publication that the relationship was not Maddie's responsibility, but that Cait "has a lot to answer for her own choices and decisions" as well.

Historyday01 (talk) 13:24, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

I haven't watched the show, so I don't want to be too gross. I think it's enough to make some argument as to why her seduction(?) of Caitlin wasn't entirely a ruse. Solaire the knight (talk) 18:10, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Fair point. I don't think it was entirely a ruse, definitely not. Historyday01 (talk) 20:17, 25 November 2024 (UTC)