Talk:Afghan National Security Forces

Merge

Redirect to Military of Afghanistan there is nothing to merge... Pol430 talk to me 22:37, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Propose rename to: https://www.usip.org/index.php/publications/2016/05/afghanistan-national-defense-and-security-forces

Per this example and many others: https://www.usip.org/index.php/publications/2016/05/afghanistan-national-defense-and-security-forces — Preceding unsigned comment added by Garuda28 (talk • contribs) 19:14, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

Question: Is this actually a term used by Afghan government? I think it's an exonym used by the U.S. DoD. If that's the case, it should not be capitalized per MOS:MILTERMS. – Illegitimate Barrister (talk • contribs), 00:29, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

Merger proposal 1 December 2022

I propose merging History of the Afghan Armed Forces (2002–2021) into Afghan National Security Forces. I think the content in History of the Afghan Armed Forces (2002–2021) can easily be explained in the context of Afghan National Security Forces, and a merger would not cause any article-size or weighting problems in Afghan National Security Forces. Furthermore, the official name of the military and security forces in the former Islamic Republic of Afghanistan is the Afghan National Security Forces. - Hu753 (talk) 01:23, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

Strong Disagree. Different organisations. The "Afghan National Security Forces," a U.S. term of convenience never officially adapted by the Afghans (see what Illegitimate Barrister has said above), just another acronym for an acronym-crazy DOD, was a term covering *everything,* thus Ministry of the Interior or even the secret police. Do indicate somewhere if you see an official Afghan letter from before 2021 saying the Ghani government officially adapted the term "ANSF" though, but that wouldn't change the two/three-ministries composition. The Armed Forces should not be merged into an article including the MOI!! Buckshot06 (talk) 00:51, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

The following article shows the Pashto translation of "Afghan National Security Forces" as used by the former Islamic Republic of Afghanistan. https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:wbEX1SaU8isJ:https://mod.gov.af/ps/%25D8%25AF%25D9%2581%25D8%25A7%25D8%25B9%25D9%258A-%25D8%25A7%25D9%2588-%25D8%25A7%25D9%2585%25D9%2586%25DB%258C%25D8%25AA%25D9%258A-%25DA%2581%25D9%2588%25D8%25A7%25DA%25A9%25D9%2588%25D9%2586%25D9%2587-%25D8%25AF-%25D8%25A7%25D9%2581%25D8%25BA%25D8%25A7%25D9%2586%25D8%25B3%25D8%25AA%25D8%25A7%25D9%2586-%25D8%25AF-%25D8%25AF%25DA%259A%25D9%2585%25D9%2586%25D8%25A7%25D9%2586%25D9%2588-%25D9%25BE%25D8%25B1-%25D9%2588%25DA%2593%25D8%25A7%25D9%2586%25D8%25AF%25DB%2590-%25D9%25BE%25D9%2587-%25D9%2584%25D9%2588%25DA%2593-%25D9%2585%25D9%2588%25D8%25B1%25D8%25A7%25D9%2584-%25D8%25A7%25D9%2588-%25DA%25A9%25D9%2584%25DA%25A9-%25D9%2587%25D9%2588%25DA%2589-%25D9%2585%25D8%25A8%25D8%25A7%25D8%25B1%25D8%25B2%25D9%2587-%25DA%25A9%25D9%2588%25D9%258A&cd=19&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au - Hu753 (talk) 05:07, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Honestly man please don't make me laugh. Do you know how many thousands of documents were written in English and badly translated into Pashto or Dari? No. I need an official note from the NSC or similar stipulating that "Afghan National Security Forces" was an official Afghan Govt not just DOD usage. Buckshot06 (talk) 08:17, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

From the Twitter account of the Office of the National Security Council of the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan.

https://twitter.com/NSCAfghan/status/1421426372652806144

By the way, the previous article is a cached page from the Ministry of Defence of the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan. - Hu753 (talk) 09:23, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

No, no, no. Not a tweet that could have been written by an American advisor in his office. An official directive that says [date date 1378 or whatever].. from NSC/MOD/whatever: "The style and title Afghan National Security Forces [or ANSDF] shall be an official usage of the GIROA." or something similar. That's extremely unlikely, because the term "Afghan" is actually not something that exists in [can't remember which one it was, probably Dari, not Pashto], which is why Giustozzi titles his 2015 book "The Army of Afghanistan" not the "Afghan Army." Buckshot06 (talk) 10:27, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

References do not so state

Dear Melbguy05 please go and recheck DOD 2020b, page 38, and tell me if you see any reference on that page to the Afghan Border Force and ANCOP being part of the ANSF. In accordance with WP:BURDEN, you are responsible for that readdition; I carefully checked the page and could not find anything saying that, now you need to produce proof.

A reference at the end of every organisation line has to say that the organisation concerned is part of the ANSF in order to justify their inclusion on this page.

Please do not readd page 38, DOD 2020b, to the Afghan Air Force line unless page 38 actually says that the AAF were part of the ANSF. Page 45, which I left, probably serves that purpose just fine. Buckshot06 (talk) 07:49, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

@Buckshot06: The ABF is on page 38 under the subsection heading "4.2 Afghan National Army (ANA)" it states "The ANA General Staff C2s all of Afghanistan’s ground and air forces, including the ANA conventional forces, the AAF, the SMW, the ANASOC, the Afghan National Civil Order Force (ANCOF), and the Afghan Border Force (ABF)." and "In total, the ANA consists of .. seven ABF brigades.." ABF is part of the ANA and page 40 describes the ABF "The ABF consists of seven brigades under the operational control of the seven ANA Corps." . ANCOP is not an organisation do you mean something else? maybe ANCOF it is also on page 38 it states that it is part of the ANA and page 40 describes ANCOF "The ANCOF consists of five brigades under the operational control of ANA Corps". It is also part of the ANA.

Page 38 says that the AAF is part of the ANA. Previously, the list had the AAF as a separate organisation to the ANA. So I added page 38 for hierarchy it states "The ANA General Staff C2s all of Afghanistan’s ground and air forces, including the ANA conventional forces, the AAF,.." under the subsection heading "4.2 Afghan National Army (ANA)". Page 45 doesn't state it is part of the ANA. I also updated Afghan Army and History of the Afghan Armed Forces (2002–2021) that the AAF were part of the ANA.Regards, Melbguy05 (talk) 08:27, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I saw all that, several times.

You need to follow what the references say. That's what we do here. Do not claim, on this page or anywhere else, that the ANCOF (sorry not ANCOP) is part of the ANSF unless references say that.

Right now, this page needs to list about three entities: ANA, AAF, and ANP. The subsidiary pages for those three organisations can list their sub-organisations, but the references simply do not refer to the ANCOF and ANSF, for example.

There were also wild howlers where it was claimed that the NATO ref said the NDS was part of the ANSF, when it didn't; and the CIA ref actually talked about the ANDSF, not the ANSF.

I have read the sources. This page needs to include only what the sources say; the subsidiary pages can describe the subcomposition because that it what the source actually refers too - unless you find some sources backing your non-cited claims here. Buckshot06 (talk) 08:35, 29 March 2024 (UTC)