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Third opinion on disputed material from IMDB

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A Third Opinion is requested in a dispute between Lx 121 and myself myself over the inclusion of the date of birth and place of birth of Aaron Johnson. You can read our exchanges to date on his Talk Page and on mine. This is a summary of them:

Lx 121 insists on including this material, but does not include any inline citations for them. Instead, he merely lists four urls in the References section (claiming that the need for inline citations is just my personal opinion), two of which are of the Internet Movie Database, and two of which are fansites. Fan sites are not reliable sources, nor is imdb. When Lx asked me to point out where on Wikipedia this is stated, I directed him to the Reliable Sources Noticeboard, where there are countless discussions on the matter. On the first page of search results alone, there are 20 discussions, and of those, users in at least 15 of them indicate that imdb is not reliable, with the other discussions exhibiting a bit more ambiguity or dissent on the matter. This is easily a consensus, but Lx insists that it is not, without explaining why. I also pointed to this policy page, which says imdb is not reliable for notability. Lx's position is that this matter is not about notability but reliability. In my opinion, this is hair-splitting, since, if it is not reliable for notability, then why would it be reliable for verifiability? Lx insists that I am trying to impose my "opinion" on others. I tried to explain that the only "opinion" I had on imdb was that it was reliable, and only stopped using it when I was informed otherwise, but he has not responded to this, preferring only to repeat the original accusation, in violation of WP:AGF. He also claims that it is reliable because he and others in the film industry rely on it, and that for a site with user-generated content to "criticize" another is due to "professional jealousy". I tried to explain that this judgment is not a "criticism" nor "professional jealousy", but merely an observation that sources without full editorial control cannot be reliable, which is a core part of the Verfiability policy, but he argues as if "I use it, and so do others" somehow supersedes the Verifiability policy's criteria on editorial control.

Lx also insists that I should look for sources for this material myself. He also argues that since it's only the date and place of birth, that we can "assume" it's correct, unless I prove the material's inaccuracy. Dates and places of birth are not exempt from WP:V, and as I have tried to explain to others, WP:Burden requires the editor who favors adding or including the material in question to source it, and not others. This is not only policy, but is a far more fair and logical distribution of responsibility, since it properly assigns responsibility to each editor who adds material, instead of giving them a blank check to dump any ol' information in an article, and leave others to clean up the mess. I made this point to Lx, but he did not respond to refute WP:Burden, or any interpretation of it.

Lx also says that I am in danger of violating the The Three revert rule. By this he is referring to my reverting the material at 03:20, 24 July 2009 after he added it, and then again at 06:28, 25 July 2009 after an anonymous IP editor reverted it. As I tried to point out to Lx, that rule forbids reverting material more than three times within a 24-hour period, and doing so twice in 27 hours poses no danger of violation, specifically because it does not apply to reverting vandalism or blatant policy violations. He responded by insisting that what I did violated "its spirit". In fact, the intent of the 3RR is to discourage edit warring, and Good Faith reverts of a material that an editor believes clearly violates WP policy, first by one editor, and then by another editor 27 hours later, does not violate the spirit of 3RR. This is common sense, but is also indicated explicitly here. Once Lx began disputing the material in question with me, however, I stopped reverting it, as continuing to revert during such a discussion is not permitted. Indeed it is interesting that Lx himself did not abstain himself from doing this, as he continued to revert even after we began discussing our dispute, but somehow it's my prior reversions that violate this rule.

In addition, he continues to revert other edits I make to the article, even ones that he did not indicate previously that he disputed. Specifically, when I tried to delink a date (not remove it, mind you), citing the Manual of Style in my Edit Summary, Lx reverted it, commenting in his Edit Summary, "copyediting the intro & edit conflict, again." Whether he is doing this out of spite, or also wants to challenge the policy that indicates that dates not germane to an article's topic should not be linked (or thinks I am misinterpreting it), I don't know, but I posted a link to that policy on his Talk Page. Nightscream (talk) 17:35, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Response to third opinion request (Dispute over inclusion of material in article using the Internet Movie Database...):
I have no association with this article, no particular interest in Aaron Johnson (actor) and no previous association with the editors involved and so have picked up this request for review. Note that this is an informal process so I have no special power or authority apart from being a fresh pair of eyes. You can check the details of this process on wp:3O.

After reviewing the text above, both user talk pages and the article itself, the root cause of the dispute appears to me to be uncertainty over the use of IMDB as a reliable source for biographical data on Aaron Johnson (actor). I will limit my opinion to that matter. For the other areas you have already made reference above to appropriate guidelines and I see little benefit in going over the same ground apart from pointing out that WP:WQA is a handy process for dealing with sustained poor etiquette. Note, in the quotes below any emphasis is mine and intended to be helpful.

For the question of is it reasonable for me to remove this unsourced information?, we do have the guidance of RS which states:

Editors must take particular care when writing biographical material about living persons, for legal reasons and in order to be fair. Remove unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material immediately if it is about a living person, and do not move it to the talk page. This applies to any material related to living persons on any page in any namespace, not just article space.

Consequently, it is reasonable for any editor to remove unsourced information from any biographical page if they feel it may be contentious in any way. Dates of birth are potentially contentious as there are many actors who may be offended if their age is incorrectly stated. Other information that is self-evident does not require sourcing, such as the fact that Aaron is a man, that the colour of his skin is white or which films he had major parts in (the films themselves are sufficient). Note that this is not an excuse to start an edit-war, see WP:BRD for the recommended process (which may include discussing on the article talk page what may or may not be reasonably considered contentious).

For the question of is IMDB or a fansite a reliable source?, the key guide that applies is BLP. This requires that "good quality sources" are used to verify information. BLP points you to RS to decide the detail of reliable sources and as User:Lx 121 correctly points out, it is true that IMDB is not "explicitly excluded", this is because it would be impossible and unfair to expect Wikipedia to go through the whole of the internet and point out which sites were not reliable sources. BLP goes on to exclude self published sources for living people:

Never use self-published books, zines, websites, webforums, blogs or tweets as sources for material about a living person, unless written or published by the subject of the biographical material.

Unfortunately IMDB itself states "The information in the Internet Movie Database comes from various sources. Though we do some active gathering of information, the bulk of our information is submitted by people in the industry and visitors like you." They do consistency checking but take no editorial responsibility for such content. Consequently IMDB is considered a self published source as there is no way of checking which bits of information were from official sources or random members of the public. Note, this does not stop IMDB from being an external link for information on an actor or film.

In the case of fansites the same argument applies. The only fansites that would be appropriate would be officially recognized sites with authorized content from Aaron Johnson, his agent or rights holder (such as an exclusive video interview with fans on an official fansite accredited by the film company). Currently no such site exists and unofficial sites do not satisfy WP:BLP.

Conclusion IMDB and unofficial fansites are not considered a reliable source for biographical information and do not meet the guidance of BLP.—Teahot (talk) 22:18, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Material in need of sourcing

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Can anyone find a verifiable, reliable source on Johnson's date and place of birth? Someone added High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire, UK as his place of birth, and 13 June 1990 as his date of birth, but without a source that satisfies WP:RS, so I moved that info here per the discussion on Jimmy Wales' Talk Page until it can be sourced. Nightscream (talk) 00:21, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

{{editsemiprotected}}

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The opening section lists Angus, Thongs and Perfect Snogging as one of his 'earliest roles' and The Illusionist as a film he has appeared in as a 'young adult'. Given that the Illusionist is a 2006 film and Angus is 2008, can this be changed? Sounds like distancing from a less flattering role.

Not done. That is a matter of copyediting and sourcing. Wildhartlivie (talk) 22:45, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Sounds like distancing from a less flattering role." Sounds like I wasn't aware of when Angus came out when I wrote that. Please see WP:AGF. Nightscream (talk) 23:10, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Filmography

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This is probably the third time I've edited his fimography section of the article. For future references, let's just leave his role in Kick-Ass as it is, okay? They're both the same character in the movie, he plays both parts, and that's the way he's listed in the credits. There's nothing erroneous about slashing in his superhero persona, especially when it's useful information for those who have yet to see the movie. This is an information source, and anyone reading the page needs to know he's the main character and starring role, not just some random mook that appears in the film. SJCrew (talk) 17:56, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Edit request from Focusedontruth, 13 March 2011

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{{edit semi-protected}}

Music Videos

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Music Videos
Year Video Notes
2011 Uberlin by REM Dancer

Focusedontruth (talk) 18:11, 13 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. While movies are easily "sourced" merely by the credits of the movie itself, a video needs some sort of clear proof that this actor appeared in it. If you have such a source, please make a new edit request with that information. Qwyrxian (talk) 00:14, 15 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 1

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The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Move. Jafeluv (talk) 12:07, 15 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

– relisting as multimove ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 18:10, 6 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

– Primary topic. Page views: 81,090, 548, 508, 175. Relisted, also see discussion GB fan 13:29, 25 September 2011 (UTC) Marcus Qwertyus 21:22, 17 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I would agree with that he is easily the most widely notable person by that name.RafikiSykes (talk) 21:31, 17 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 2

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The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was moved. --BDD (talk) 20:48, 13 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Aaron Johnson → Aaron Taylor-Johnson – Since his marriage to Sam Taylor-Wood in 2012, this has now become his WP:COMMONNAME. Tanbircdq (talk) 16:00, 5 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support A quick Google News search of his name reveals this isn't just a "he changed his name change the title" thing. The sources now mostly refer to him as Taylor-Johnson, so it seems obvious to have the page located there. Beerest355 Talk 19:09, 5 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
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Move discussion in progress

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There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Aaron Johnson (disambiguation) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 16:01, 4 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Material needs grammar correction

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Sentence reads as "He had his breakthrough performance as John Lennon in the biopic Nowhere Boy (2009), directed by Sam Taylor-Wood, whom he married in 2012 and adopted the same surname (Taylor-Johnson) with." The sentence should not end as "with" since this is grammatically incorrect. Sentence should be altered to "He had his breakthrough performance as John Lennon in the biopic Nowhere Boy (2009), directed by Sam Taylor-Wood, with whom he married in 2012 and adopted the same surname (Taylor-Johnson)." NixMatrix (talk) 22:28, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Bond Rumours

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Should something be added about the Bond rumours? MarvelMovieFan (talk) 10:07, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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