Talk:ArmaLite AR-7

Still a stub?

Does this expanded stuff still only count as a stub? 129.89.94.54 07:21, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

without more features, such as a chart, more sources, etc, it will be considered a stub. I will be adding those features soon. CynicalMe 04:17, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! It needed the reformatting, too. I slightly modified references to the AR-5, I have no evidence the AR-7 was designed for a military aircrew survival weapon, rather than as a novelty for the civilian market. Tychocat 07:42, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Military?

I have no idea why this weapon would be included in a military listing. As far as I can tell, it had no military adoption, and its only relevance is that it was derived from a military design. If being derivative in some fashion is all it takes to be classed as "military", then the MilHist project now becomes a universal catalog of firearms. Tychocat 07:47, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

My bad. For some reason, I was convinced that the -7 had been adopted by the USAF at some point, but now I realize I have no reason to think that. I'm going to do some more research and see if I can find any additional info. Thanks. CynicalMe 09:30, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

1. I found another stub for the AR-7 which had almost identical information, I've redirected it here.

2. I've found several sites, including the Henry Repeating Arms site, which claim the AR-7 was developed by stoner for the US Air Force. Of course, this does not mean it was ever adopted by them. Here are the links. Let me know what you think. CynicalMe 09:37, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

http://www.henryrepeating.com/survival.cfm

http://www.henryrepeating.com/survival_guntests.cfm

I'm familiar with the AR-7 stub you reference, I wrote a lot of it. Tell ya what, if you're comfortable with it, since we have a documentable source, you can put in that the AR-7 was *developed* for the Air Force (cite the Henry website as your reference) but there's no evidence it was adopted. That's fair and accurate, and I'm guessing that was how the Henry ad-writers were trying to spin the non-adoption. Regards, Tychocat 04:54, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I wonder if they are not confusing the AR-7 with its big brother, the AR-5, which was adopted by the USAF as the MA-1. --D.E. Watters 01:08, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I doubt it. I think it's just spin, as Tychocat said. CynicalMe 01:31, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

On second thought, I found a site which seems to confirm this. There is a link in the article. CynicalMe 18:07, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I suspect that they are just repeating the commonly held misconception, confusing the AR-5's adoption for the similar AR-7. One would think that the folks at ArmaLite would know whether the AR-7 design was intended for the USAF or the civilian market. --D.E. Watters 22:35, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I wasn't very clear. I agree with you completely. CynicalMe 22:44, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Israeli Use

After some further research, it looks like there was a variant produced under Armalite license by the Bricklee Trading Company and purchased by the Israeli military. It became the "Israeli Pilot's Survival Rifle" (citation in article) CynicalMe 18:07, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Correction. As I wrote in the article, these were not produced by BTC, but rather re-imported by them. CynicalMe 03:46, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Australian Use

Australian military is supposed to have used a silenced version of the Armalite .22 under designation of SAR7. Like the use by the Israeli forces, the numbers were small and were for highly specialized use. Similarly the U.S. military used small numbers of Winchester 1894 and Remington Model 8 rifles for guard purposes, nonstandard guns which appear to have been surplus from the federal prison system. Since these primarily civilian guns were not formally adopted for standard issue, it is questionable whether they should be included under miltary history.Naaman Brown (talk) 14:00, 8 August 2009 (UTC) Designation SAR7 was used on 1978 for a proposed Australian rifle modified from the AR-18 assault rifle as a replacement for the FN FAL battle rifle (Australia adopted the Steyr AUG instead). -- Naaman Brown (talk) 19:29, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Redundant Info

If you read the first few paragraphs you'll see that the fact that this weapon can be broken down to 4 component parts is repeated from one paragraph to the next but with different wording.

• noted and edited. Naaman Brown (talk) 19:34, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Documentation

The SMLE bolt-action rfile was not the basis of the "Star Wars" stormtrooper blasters, the weapon used as the basis of the prop was the Sterling SMG 9-mm. L2A3. See http://uniquecanes.com/new/item_replicas_starwars_stormtrooperE11.php for details. Also, again, citations and references for everything added, please. Tychocat 12:37, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

If you had read the comment more closely, you'd have notice that it claimed the cutdown SMLE were the basis for the blaster used by the Jawa. In addition, the Sterling SMG was correctly identified as the Stormtrooper blaster. --D.E. Watters 15:24, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

That is correct, but I'm not sure we need the references to other weapons in the AR-7 article.CynicalMe 22:20, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Apologies to Dan for my hasty reading of his original addition. I have a lot of respect for the work you put into your website, and would not mean to demean the effort or expertise it represents. I still would have removed the SMLE reference just because it was a bit afield, but obviously should have read it twice before acting. Sorry. Tychocat 06:47, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, User:24.45.183.219 was responsible for that addition, not me. --D.E. Watters 15:14, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that IP-user added the paragraph on starwars guns, then I moved it to the pop culture section.CynicalMe 17:00, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Grovel, grovel. Tychocat 11:13, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

AR-7 Criticisms

This was my fault, I should have earlier caught and corrected the unverified and undocumented statements in this paragraph. Done. Tychocat 11:34, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

How to section

The section on aftermarket modifications includes detailed instructions on such topics as adding a sling. The instruction are detailed enough to include parts and catalog numbers. This should be edited down in such a way as to not read like a instruction manual while preserving any encyclopedic content. F-451 (talk) 04:14, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I've tried to fix it, although it could still use some work, and it needs some citations. One part I removed entirely was already located in the next section up, and I've reworded the parts that seemed especially like a how-to guide.--LWF (talk) 04:22, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. And on the subject of more work, the section is starting to look rather sparse on information without all the extra fluff, perhaps now it should be retagged as needing expert attention? Any thoughts? F-451 (talk) 04:49, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

RfC: The AR-7 in Popular Culture is relevant

Reasons:I strongly believe the popular culture section on the weapon is necessary for several reasons. For one many people have first known about the weapon through films, secondly the assassination use in several films has undoubtedly inspired the creators of the weapon to modify it (for example the reference to the recoil spring put in to prevent subsonic ammunition) to prevent its use in a manner the weapon was never designed for. I have moved the reference of the Paladin Press book to the popular culture section as it seems to be a more sensible place for the item.Foofbun (talk) 23:10, 17 June 2008 (UTC) }}

The AR-7 was developed from designs for air crew survival weapons (M4, M6 and AR-5) and has become popular as a replacement for the handgun as a sidearm for hikers, campers, and outdoors users of recreational vehicles. So the mention in Hitman a purely fictional manual for contract killers is notable only as a bad joke. Naaman Brown (talk) 17:45, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

¿too many unnotable cites? I notice another user has removed The AR-7 in popular culture section. I think it would be appropriate to repeat here the hidden comment that followed the section heading:

WikiPedia Impact on Pop Culture sections are not intended to be exhaustive lists of trivia. Appropriate items should be notable, historically important, and encyclopedic. Other firearms articles have seen the "...in Popular Culture" section deleted entirely when the trivia exceeded the length of the rest of the article. Many people first learned of the AR-7 through the Bond films and the movie/TV spy genre of the 1960s, so that first mention is notable and encyclopedic. Given the popularity of this easily "dressed up" model, there are many non-notable appearances in pop culture and listing them all may cost us this section. Please think before adding, Is this cite notable?. Thank you.

Let's face it, an article on Ford automobiles that listed every movie, book, TV show, anime, etc that included a Ford car would be a farce. Naaman Brown (talk) 12:59, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

How about a short section mentioning that variants of the AR-7 have been used in many movies and television shows, in stock and modified versions, most often as a spy or assassin's gun, usually packed into a case and shown being assembled by the character. The emphasis being that it's an unusual looking gun which is often portrayed as being much more powerful, accurate and longer ranged than it actually is. Bizzybody (talk) 04:54, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

The objection usually raised to "In popular culture" sections on Wikipedia is that they grow into lists of trivia longer than the original article (without cites to reliable sources, as someone remembering seeing "one of those or simething like it" on a late show movie years ago). The Wikipedia Gun article policy on pop culture sections is at http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Wikipedia:GUNS#Pop_culture .

Looking at the article history, Revision 30 Mar 2009 (User:69.234.137.67 Comment: Removing popular culture section per WP:GUNS#Pop culture.) cut the whole section. It slowly grew back. I added a warning about trivial Pop culture sections after adding some links to the new section (Revision 12 May 2011 (User:Naaman Brown Comment:‎The AR-7 in popular culture: non-trivia request)). Inevitably Revision 19 Jun 2011 (User:Berean Hunter Comment:minor tweaks + rm pop culture + cleanup ELs) cut the whole section, again. Actually the total removal appears contrary to WP:GUNS#Pop_culture but it happens without consensus on talk anyway. Some WP editors have no tolerance for Pop culture sections no matter what the subject.

For AR-7 in popular culture we could include a link to Internet Movie Firearms Database (IMFDb), a wiki for gun/movie/TV/video game/anime buffs. Their AR-7 page and linked movies/TV shows/anime (at http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Armalite_AR-7 ) includes far more mention of the AR-7 in movies, television and anime than we could reasonably include here. --Naaman Brown (talk) 11:05, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Since we have lost the Pop Culture section, I took the liberty of removing this from the History and Design section:

Sean Connery used an AR-7 in the 1963 James Bond film From Russia With Love, although it is mistakenly referred to as having a ".25 calibre", not .22.

That is not really part of history or design. In a way, the AR-7 is like the VW of movie guns; does the VW article list every movie, TV show, videogame appearance of a VW?--Naaman Brown (talk) 16:57, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Some people will try. Give them an inch and they take....?
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 20:29, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

barrel length

Barrel length for National Firearms Act NFA purposes is measured from the muzzle to the face of the breech, with the action closed in firing position. Shorter than 16 inches is a short barreled rifle (SBR) requiring federal registration under NFA. The AR-7 is right at the legal limit. With many barrels for the AR7 rifle, the barrel is short of 16 inches by some fraction of the thickness of the rim of a .22 cartridge when the outside of the barrel is measured. As far as ATF has been concerned, a factory made AR7 rifle barrel is legally 16 inches, since measurement from muzzle to boltface is nominally 16 inches. If the muzzle is damaged, the crown can be repaired only by counterboring the muzzle. Naaman Brown (talk) 19:33, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

(In)Significant Differences in Production

With the Armalite AR-7 Explorer rifle, the bolt can be removed from the action by pulling out the bolt handle since the bolt has a full length slot for the ejector and can be removed from the action after the handle is removed.

With the Charter Arms Explorer II pistol, the bolt does not have a full length slot for the extractor, and removal of the bolt requires removal of the left stock panel, the action plate and the ejector, then you pull out the bolt handle and remove the bolt forward.

There are other, minor variations in the various iterations of the AR-7. I think it would make too much detail for a general interest article. Naaman Brown (talk) 14:15, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

The rear disc of the recoil spring guide on the original ArmaLite and the Charter Arms AR-7 is solid requiring a complete disassembly of the action for removal; the Henry Survival Rifle version has a cutout allowing the bolt, recoil springs, and recoil spring guide to be removed as an assembly without disassembly of the action. Detail left in talk; main point is the Henry was redesigned for ease of maintenance. --Naaman Brown (talk) 16:34, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

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Popular Culture

Will someone add that in the 1964 James Bond film, From Russia With Love, Bond is issued an AR-7 by Q-branch with his special brief case that has the exploding tear gas cartridge, and hidden compartments for ammunition and gold sovereigns? Bond uses the weapon to shoot the rival Bulgarian spy who attacked the attacked the gypsey band working for Karim Bey (actually Bond passes the rifle to Karim Bey who shoots the Bulgarian while he was trying to climb down a wall). Gregory Y (talk) 03:49, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

The use of the AR-7 in the film "From Russia With Love" is important in the movie and made a lot of people aware of the AR-7. ArmaLite AR-7 is one of the articles where the popular culture section has been a problem: see RfC: The AR-7 in Popular Culture is relevant above. Wikipedia in general tolerates PopCult sections when limited to the most significant uses of the article subjects, but when the sections get bloated with trivia, they often get totally axed. If you look at Internet Movie Firearms Database AR-7 the appearances in films, television series, and anime could easily be bigger than the rest of the article. The AR-7 is popular with movie and TV prop departments because it is modular and easily dressed up. The mention in the movie should include a link here. --Naaman Brown (talk) 12:01, 14 May 2018 (UTC)