Talk:Garda Síochána malpractice allegations

Merger proposal

I believe that the following articles should be merged into this one; the topics, because they are part of this wider topic; and the biographies, because their subjects are notable only in so far as they are involved in this controversy:

--Scolaire (talk) 10:53, 7 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Note: I have informed Autarch and This is Paul, the creators of the Martin Callinan and Gemma O'Doherty articles, respectively. All the others were created by what looks like a dynamic IP via AfC, so there seems little point in leaving notes on the user talk page. Scolaire (talk) 11:15, 7 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support merging everything except the Callinan article. As a former office holder Callinan is probably notable enough for a stand alone article. Surprised to see Gemma O'Doherty here, I created it as a redirect to this article and it looks like the same dynamic ip has been at work on it. This is Paul (talk) 12:45, 7 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support merging everything except Callinan article and possibly the Gemma O'Doherty one. Garda Commissioner is a significant role, the Callinan article is over 50% concerned with the commisioner rather than the Garda Controversy. I'm undecided about the Gemma O'Doherty article - more than 50% of the article is concerned with the Garda scandal, though it also mentions her work on investigating the Father Molloy case. Other articles have significance in relation to scandal. (Does the uncertainty count against this?)Autarch (talk) 15:27, 7 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose as way too broad and conflating unrelated scandals. John Wilson (Garda) and Maurice McCabe are really notable only for what appears in the Guerin Report. I support a merge of those. Martin Callinan (a Garda Commissioner) and Gemma O'Doherty (a journalist) are notable by themselves - or at least for other things as well. The 2014 Garda phone recordings controversy has nothing to do with the Guerin Report so I oppose a merge there. Then delete this article (2014 Garda Síochána controversy). There were numerous controversies to do with the Gardaí and the Dept. of Justice in 2014. Conflating them does no good. --Tóraí (talk) 13:27, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose merging Gemma O'Doherty into anything at this point, given that while the controversy is a large part of her public profile, it is not the only thing she is known for. E.g., this is not a WP:BLP1E situation or an unsourced stub where merging is the lesser of several other evils. I honestly have no opinion about the other ones. §FreeRangeFrog^croak 00:55, 10 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Note: there was a preliminary dicussion of this merger at WikiProject Ireland. --Scolaire (talk) 11:45, 7 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

All the above articles are of reasonable length, but in the case of the biographies in particular, they have been "bulked up" with details that of themselves would not have made the person notable if it had not been for this controversy. Some of the details – Martin Callinan's involvement with previous high-profile cases or John Wilson's aborted entry into politics – can be retained in the merged article. Others, such as personal life, qualifications and awards, are not encyclopaedic in my view. Scolaire (talk) 11:52, 7 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Autarch: @This is Paul: Being Garda Commissioner does not make a person notable per se. Noel Conroy is tagged for notablity. Fachtna Murphy is not, but could as easily be. Regardless of what happens here, I intend to nominate both those articles for deletion. No other recent Garda Commissioner has an article, even Patrick McLaughlin or Edmund Garvey, who also left office amid controversy. The content in the Callinan article not relating to the 2014 affair is almost exclusively drawn from two newspaper articles dealing with the affair. As I say, the facts of the other cases he was involved in can be included in a merged article. But if it hadn't been for this affair, those facts would not have made him notable enough for his own article. The same applies to Gemma O'Doherty – outside of her (peripheral) involvement in this (and even including it) she would fail notability guidelines. Scolaire (talk) 17:52, 7 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Scolaire:, I see we don't automatically have articles about everyone who has been appointed Garda Commissioner, but that doesn't necessarily mean these guys aren't notable enough for inclusion here. The Commissioner is an office holder of a national government agency, and there are plenty of other cases where pages have been created about similar individuals that have previously set a precedent for this sort of thing. For example, we have Stephen House, who is Chief Constable of Police Scotland, a similarly sized force, Odd Reidar Humlegård, Commissioner of the Norwegian Police Service, and Ken Lay, Chief Commissioner of Victoria Police. Not to mention all the Chief Constables of London's Metropolitan Police we have, Paul Condon, Ian Blair, Bernard Hogan-Howe, etc. On a slightly different note, every politician who holds office above local level seems to get their own article, and many of them only seem to contain scant detail. The problems you mention with the Garda Commissioner articles above are not unusual when looking through the thousands of office holder biographies we have on Wikipedia. This is Paul (talk) 18:29, 7 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough. Once we're keeping the article for the right reasons, I'm happy to keep it. Scolaire (talk) 22:12, 7 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

So submit those articles for AfD and see if they survive the notability guidelines. But Martin Callinan ≠ 2014 Garda Síochána controversy. --Tóraí (talk) 13:30, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Em...I've already said I'm happy not to merge Martin Callinan. Should I have struck through that article in the proposal? I didn't want to change anything once discussion had begun. Scolaire (talk) 16:10, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Tóraí: As far as I am aware John Wilson is not mentioned at all in the Guerin Report, and has no connection with it. The PAC hearings and the Guerin investigation were two separate matters. Scolaire (talk) 16:10, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

John Wilson isn't mentioned in the Guerin Report. That report dealt specifically with the issues that were raised by Maurice McCabe only. McCabe/Wilson/the Gurin Report are related in that they deal with the Gardaí the issues and treatment of "whistle blowers". Maybe that a better title for a merger of the four articles (including this one) would be the Garda whistle-blowers affair? Or something similar. --Tóraí (talk) 14:39, 10 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Conflation of scandals

There were numerous scandals in 2014 relating to the Gardaí. These include: (1) the GSOC bugging scandal; (2) the series of scandals to do with whistle blowers that led to the Guerin Report; (3) the discovery of illegal phone recording at Garda stations.

Does this article intend to conflate these into one? --Tóraí (talk) 13:41, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I had never even heard of the "GSOC bugging scandal". From reading this report it doesn't seem to have been a scandal at all, just a small number of anomalies that could potentially have pointed to illegal activities but apparently didn't. The controversy over the phone recordings was a direct result of the penalty points controversy. As it says in that article, Shatter unwittingly let it slip while debating the penalty points issue with Mick Wallace. Wilson and McCabe are referred to in that article. It is obvious that the two controversies are connected, even if the cases were unconnected – just as penalty points and the Jerry McGrath case were unconnected. It amounts to six months of controversy surrounding the Garda, which unfolded sequentially and was connected by the news media. Possibly the article could be renamed "2014 Garda Síochána controversies". Scolaire (talk) 16:04, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Never heard of it? You need to keep up with the news e.g. Google news results for "GSOC bugging scandal". The Cooke Report into the matter will be published this evening.

The controversy over the phone recordings was a direct result of the penalty points controversy. Word of Garda phone recordings emerged separately and after the resignation of Commissioner Callinan (e.g. source). Shatter did not "unwittingly let it slip while debating [the penalty points affair]", as you appear to believe. And the Wikipedia article does not say he did either.

These three separate scandal emerged separately and are being investigated separately by three separate inquires: Cooke Report (GSOC scandal, to be published tonight), the Guerin Report (whistleblowers scandal, published last month), and the Fennelly Commission (phone recording scandal, yet to be fully established). --Tóraí (talk) 14:07, 10 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Merge/rename proposal 2

(@Scolaire, This is Paul, Autarch, and FreeRangeFrog:)

OK, after a discussion with Scolaire on my talk page. How about would others feel about the following:

2014 Garda Síochána controversy renamed to (something like) Garda whistle-blowers controversy then:
- Guerin Report + Maurice McCabe + John Wilson (Garda) → Garda whistle-blowers controversy (or similar)

(As I mentioned above, I think Scolaire was spot on to say to merge the whistle blowers bios into a single article. And he is right that the Guerin Report did not include Wilson, so it is not a suitable page for a merge, contrary to what I initially suggested.)

I think Scolare has a point that there is potential for an article dealing with the confluence of controversies leading to the resignation of the Minister for Justice and the Garda Commissioner. I would worry that one could be a bit OR-ish because I think there are few sources that treat the controversies as one. A summary article of some kind might be possible. How would others feel?

--Tóraí (talk) 16:51, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Support, I think that sounds like a reasonable suggestion. This is Paul (talk) 17:04, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support That sounds like the best outcome. §FreeRangeFrog^croak 17:08, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

(@86.45.165.17:) An IP editor has substantially expanded this article. I'm happy on the back of that to rename this article to something like 2013—2014 Garda Síochána controversies. And merge the whistle blowers and Guerin report as above. How does that sound? --Tóraí (talk) 18:02, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds ok. The lead's a bit long at the moment compared to the rest of the text, but hopefully a merger would solve that. This is Paul (talk) 20:47, 13 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]