Talk:Cham Albanians

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"Later, in 1258 when groups of Albanians around Dyrrachion (Durrës) were allied with the Despot of Epirus, Michael II Doukas, there was no evidence of Albanians in Epirus" While 2 sentences before, following appears: "During this time, the earliest mention of Albanians within the region of Epirus is recorded in a Venetian document of 1210 as inhabiting the area opposite the island of Corfu" I somehow do not understand the context. I also failed verification for the first claim. AlexBachmann (talk) 19:32, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

@AlexBachmann: According to the source: There is no evidence that Albanians came southwards to Epirus in this period, hence it refers to specific Albanian groups and their movement southwards. Such a movement is indeed undocumented but Albanians were already present in the region in 1210 and as Lopasić (1992) writes: In the south, Albanians had already started to move into Greece towards the Peloponnese and Thessaly in the thirteenth century when they fought as mercenaries of the Despot Michael II Angelos in 1268 which means that there's no reason to include the statement about 1258 in the article.

References

--Maleschreiber (talk) 19:51, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Removal of Content on grounds of personal opionions

@Khirurg you're always playing the victim and implying that there's a conspiracy against you when it's you who refuses to discuss and revert so that users can't revert your absurd arguments without breaching the 3-Revert-Rule. It's onto you to seek consensus to remove content, and I evidently don't agree with it. Do you even know what "peasant woman" means? It means Bäuerin / grua fshatar in my two native languages. Here's a definition for you: noun: a member of a class of persons, as in Europe, Asia, and Latin America, who are small farmers or farm laborers of low social rank.[1]

Even if peasant woman meant something that you're thinking it is it's still not a valid reason to remove it. One could simply write: In 1980, [Author] recorded that... But that's not what you're aiming for, isn't it? Ice-cold removal of content that calls for edit-warring is the standard here and I'm honestly fed up with it. I'm sure you would be very happy if I removed Kallivretakis because I don't like his choice of words. Unfortunately I don't speak Greek so I can't do that. AlexBachmann (talk) 18:59, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

If you remain non-responsive I will restore the content. AlexBachmann (talk) 15:43, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

@AlexBachmann: you understand that you want to add information using present tense while the claim comes from a work back to 1978. Half a century later it's impossible for those 'children' and remain children.Alexikoua (talk)

You still don't have any evidence that those children (now adults) don't teach the language to their children. I'm doing the exact same thing as you're doing with Kallivretakis. Unless you can present me a source that describes that Cham Albanian is going extinct in Christian Albanian communities in Epirus, this will stay in the present tense. As you've said, the present tense may have been a problem to some users. But Khirurg went straight into removing it all instead. AlexBachmann (talk) 14:00, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

The reference is outdated, it describes a reality that no longer exists. Instead of making ridiculous threats about Kallivretakis, you would do well to read up more on the reality on the ground. There are no large rural populations in Greece anymore, and the remaining Orthodox Chams have long ago assimilated. There is simply no way we are going to present a reality from 1978 in the present tense in wikivoice. Khirurg (talk) 19:21, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

it describes a reality that no longer exists Just as Kallivretakis does. The vast majority of Greeks in Albania has emigrated to Greece since 1990 (Georgiou, Myria). I won't go further into this, perhaps we'll talk about that at the appropriate venue.

ridiculous threats about Kallivretakis That's not a thread, and you know that, it's just a comparison. What you're doing with him. It's funny to me that the quote you've been removing isn't valid but at the same time Kallivretakis is. That's the point. If you can't see that, I don't know what to do.

There is simply no way we are going to present a reality from 1978 I will ask you again, if you have any evidence that the situation has changed. If you can give me a source that Cham Albanian is dying out in Christian Arvanite/Albanian communities in Epirus, I'll agree to put this into the past tense. There are no large rural populations in Greece anymore. Exactly. You don't know either. Perhaps a source could help. have long ago assimilated. Do you know what we're talking about? We are talking about the language that they speak, not about a revival of Albanian consciousness and nationalism in Christian Albanian communities in Epirus.

Agree doing it one way. You can't have it both: Kallivretakis as extremely appropriate and Foss as outdated. AlexBachmann (talk) 23:46, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

What is this obsession with Kallivretakis? You literally can't stop mentioning him in every post and edit summary. You really really want him removed, don't you? Guess what, that's never going to happen. You know why? Because the reality described by him still applies today. Those villages that he describes as Greek-inhabited? They still are. With fewer people, sure, but their ethnic demographics haven't changed. So stop wasting your time obsessing over Kallivretakis. This situation here is completely different. The rural inhabitants described by Foss ("peasants") in 1978 no longer exist. Greece is a developed country, very few people work the land nowadays. Nobody speaks Albanian anymore. Tom Winnifrith, a British researcher, searched all over the region and couldn't find a single Albanian speaker (see Winnifrith, Tom (2002). Badlands, Borderlands: A History of Northern Epirus/Southern Albania. Duckworth. pp. 25–26, 53. Some Orthodox speakers remained, but the language was not encouraged or even allowed, and by the end of the twentieth century it had virtually disappeared..... And so with spurious confidence Greek historians insist that the inscriptions prove that the Epirots of 360, given Greek names by their fathers and grandfathers at the turn of the century, prove the continuity of Greek speech in Southern Albania since their grandfathers whose names they might bear would have been living in the time of Thucydides. Try telling the same story to some present-day inhabitants of places like Margariti and Filiates in Southern Epirus. They have impeccable names, they speak only Greek, but their grandparents undoubtedly spoke Albanian.) The language has disappeared. And this was in 2002, nowadays the situation would be even more extreme. Time to accept reality and move on. Khirurg (talk) 01:03, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

What is this obsession with Kallivretakis? I'm not obsessed with Kallivretakis, it's your double standards all the time that are bothering me. I'm not disputing that some villages in the extreme South of Albania are Greek, unlike you: Nobody speaks Albanian anymore.. Demographics have changed, do I have to remind you of Qeparo? The upper part is almost non-existent anymore, thus Qeparo became an "an Albanian-speaking village"[1]. The next census in Albania hopefully will provide clarity, unlike Greece that's been hiding their demographics for decades.

very few people work the land nowadays. "Der Landwirtschaftssektor ist weiterhin in Griechenland ein sehr wichtiger Bereich von wirtschaftlichen Aktivitäten und Arbeitsbeschaffung. Der primäre Bereich der Agrikultur beschäftigt 12,4% der gesamten Arbeitskraft in Griechenland und umfasst etwa 600.000 Personen (2010)." [2]. I don't think I need to translate.

Tom Winnifrith, a British researcher, searched all over the region You mean three cities? AlexBachmann (talk) 19:57, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

@Alexikoua I see that you provided some quotes in your summaries, please present them here. If appropriate, I will agree to put it into the past tense. AlexBachmann (talk) 20:14, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Also Winnifirth only talks about some inhabitants. Try telling the same story to some present-day inhabitants of places like Margariti and Filiates in Southern Epirus. Also I find it unencyclopedic that Alexikoua hasn't made a single comment here since I've kindly asked him to discuss here. AlexBachmann (talk) 21:39, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Winnifrith clearly states the (Albanian) language has virtually disappeared. He is clearly referring to Cham Albanian in Epirus, not Albanian in Greece as a whole, as you are trying to claim with that figure of 600,000. Khirurg (talk) 00:05, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

I was not referring to the Albanian minority in Greece (?) but to the people that work on the land. Winnifrith has been to three cities in Thesprotia (Margellic, Filiates and Paramithia). Regarding the circumstances that Orthodox Albanian settlements are not traditionally located in those areas, but instead in Anthousa, Ammoudia, Kanallaki, etc. I do not find it appropriate to determine whether Albanian is spoken or not. In particular, this event in Kastri [1] shows that Winnifrith's observations are not enough to determine the Albanian presence in the area. AlexBachmann (talk) 22:04, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Margariti, Filiates and Paramythia have or had Orthodox Cham populations too. You asked for a source, I gave you a source, and you try to to contradict with a blogpost. This is not serious. Khirurg (talk) 00:30, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Btw you should read something before you post it. Paste Να σημειωθεί ότι τα αρβανίτικα έθιμα είναι καθαρά ελληνικά και δεν έχουν καμία σχέση με τα αλβανικά. Άλλωστε οι Αρβανίτες είναι Έλληνες με ιδιαίτερο γλωσσικό ιδιίωμα και όχι Αλβανοί. into Google Translate and see what you get. This is why blogposts are not to be taken seriously. Khirurg (talk) 00:33, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Btw you should read something before you post it. I already did. Similar to the Arvanites in Attica, huh? For me personally this would prove that's its 100% true even though it's not a RS. This just shows this post is not made by an Albanian.

I'm not trying to contradict the source with a blogspot, it is rather my argument: He has not been to the settlements mentioned above. If you could provide a source proving that those cities have had/had an Albanian Orthodox population (because I've not heard of this before), I'm fine with putting it in the past tense.AlexBachmann (talk) 18:30, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

You keep changing the demands and trying to shift the burden of proof. First, it was a source, now you want a source that mentions specific villages. That's ridiculous. And your best counter-argument is a blogpost. The burden of proof is on you. If you want to claim Albanian is spoken in certain villages, you need to come up with a source that says so (hopefully not a blogpost). Failing that, you got nothing. If I tried to add that Greek is spoken in specific villages in Albania, you would demand sources. So, same thing here. Khirurg (talk) 03:28, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

You gave me a source, however, he's only been to three cities. Those have had a Muslim Albanian Cham population until WW2. In what way does this relate to Christian Albanian communities which are primarily located in Southern Thesprotia? The source you gave isn't helping anybody here. You removed the quote, it's on you to convince me to put it in the past tense. I'm changing the demands because I want to verify the authenticity of sources. In what way does this violate a guideline? My best argument is that he's been to cities that don't even have a Christian Albanian population, and you know that. If you can prove that there was a Christian Albanian presence, Winnifirth's observations are appropriate to put Foss's observations quote in the past tense. Simple as that. Or maybe not really. AlexBachmann (talk) 17:26, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

I will restore the content if no objection follows. It's important to note that I'm not trying to add an Albanian name to the lead of a Greek town, it's about one sentence. AlexBachmann (talk) 22:41, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

WP:IDHT, WP:CIR. The material I removed refers to something that was going in the 70s and no longer occurs today. Do you understand that? Khirurg (talk) 21:19, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

You're lucky I've got some upcoming exams tomorrow and next week. I do not have the time to constantly observe a discussion, otherwise, this would have gone straight to the WP:ANI. You know I'm not afraid of doing so, I've already done this in the past. Perhaps in the future. AlexBachmann (talk) 22:28, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

It's good you're focusing on your exams, I would encourage you to keep doing that. After all, real life is more important. But feel free to "go to ANI" whenever you want, maybe you can explain how you are trying to portray something that was happening in the 1970s as if it were still happening today. Khirurg (talk) 02:06, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

Total Cham population

@Khirurg, @Alexikoua it seems we have a disagreement on the interpretation of the source by Miranda Vickers. According to Vickers, there are 250,000 Chams in Albania, 400,000 living in diaspora, and 40,000 living in Greece. Would this not total up to at least 650,000 or 690,000? The figure of 170,000 Chams is 28 years old and extremely low in comparison to the minimum estimate of all countries combined. I think, we should reach a consensus through discussion. Thanks, Yung Doohickey (talk) 05:34, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Miranda Vickers is an internal British MoD publication that is not peer-reviewed and does not cite any bibliography. That alone is an instant red flag. The figure of 650k is extremely large, considering there were not more than 30-40k Chams total in WW2 (Muslim and Orthodox). Going from 40k to 650k in the space of a few decades is simply extraordinary. Even if they all had 10 kids each that wouldn't be enough. Bottom line is the claim is WP:EXTRAORDINARY and you will need a far better source than Vickers for such a strong claim. Even Cham advocacy groups, who have every reason to inflate their numbers, do not go above 440k. Khirurg (talk) 05:40, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

There were 30-40K Chams excluding the ones that were deported to Turkey during the Population exchange between Greece and Turkey. My point is you can't have an uncited estimate of 440,000 and a 28 year old source citing 170,000 (that isn't given explicitly by the scholar, or the cited scholar, and doesn't explicitly regard the total Cham population). Vickers is used for the other estimates, like 40,000 Orthodox Chams in Greece, and 250,000 in Albania, but not used when it comes to the total? Yung Doohickey (talk) 05:47, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

As I've said, Vickers is not a peer-reviewed source and does not cite bibliography, so she should not be used at all. The fact that she is being used for the outlandishly high figures of 40k Orthodox Albanians in Greece and 250k in Albania is damaging to the article and should be removed as well. Using that source even more is the last thing we should be doing. Khirurg (talk) 05:51, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

She does seem to provide citations and does so on pages 12-13. This also doesn't mean a figure as low as 170,000 should be used considering it's from 1995 and doesn't explicitly give the total Cham population, nor is it given from the scholar being cited, instead it's from "local officials". Yung Doohickey (talk) 06:01, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Those aren't a proper bibliography. The longer this goes on, the more I am inclined to completely remove Vickers from the article. Find a better source or forget it. Khirurg (talk) 06:04, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

The Balkan Insight uses the same figures.[here] Also, can you address the 170,000 figure and the concerns I've brought up regarding it? I can try to find sources other than Vickers, even though she's a pretty reputable source, as her 2002 paper was even cited by Robert Elsie.[here] Thanks, Yung Doohickey (talk) 06:20, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Balkan Insight is also not a scholarly source and also does not cite a bibliography. Most likely they are just repeating the claim from Vickers. Elsie's blog post is also not peer-reviewed and does not cite the Vickers paper you are trying to us. The figure of 170k is also extremely high, the true figure is probably much lower. There were only 40k Chams in the 1940s, even if they doubled, they would only be 80k (and shrinking fast nowadays due to assimilation, mixed marriages and low birthrate). Khirurg (talk) 06:45, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

There's a few things I've noticed upon reflection. First thing is, do you think, in relation to Miranda Vickers, the 400k Chams in diaspora includes the 250k in Albania? If so then 440k should be fine. Also, in relation to the figure of 170k, per WP:AGEMATTERS, it cannot be used here, in addition to the fact that is doesn't clearly indicate a total Cham population. Your estimation of 80k is a bit flawed because it's WP:OR and since the 1940 estimation for the Cham population in Greece was 72,000 per Greek gov't, excluding the likely tens of thousands that were deported during the Population exchange between Greece and Turkey in 1923 and the ethnic cleansing campaign in the Balkan Wars and WWI. I think the figure should just be changed to circa 440,000. Yung Doohickey (talk) 14:42, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

WP:AGEMATTERS is for really old sources, not sources from the 1990s that happen to be "inconvenient". The Vickers source is from the early 2000s anyway, so practically there is no difference. The figure of 440,000 is the one that should removed because a) it is from a Cham advocacy organization and thus not a reliable source and b) even if we accept the figure of 70k from the 1940s, that would imply an increase of 500% in 6-7 decades, which would be world record. So if anything, it's the 440,000 figure that should be removed. Btw, it wasn't "tens of thousands" that were sent to Turkey, it was just a few thousands, because the League of Nations forced Greece to stop doing it. Khirurg (talk) 16:23, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

It wouldn't necessarily imply a 500% increase if you also account for Chams who were deported for the 1923 population exchange and ethnic cleansing campaign during the Balkan Wars and WWI; and the ones that willingly emigrated during their persecution by the Greek gov't. Also, the Albanian population in Yugoslavia doubled in 3 decades, so it's not impossible for such an increase to occur. Miranda Vickers is a reputable scholar as well, and it's unreasonable to assume she just made up the figure/heavily inflated it without WP:RS to prove it. If you add up the minimum estimates per country you get 290k. Also, can you site a source stating that only a few thousand Chams were deported during the population exchange, otherwise something else would have to explain the 80-100k Chams in Turkey. Thanks, Yung Doohickey (talk) 17:12, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

It seems that the figure of 400,000 in diaspora doesn't include Albanians from Albania. The total of 650,000 can also be deduced from [here] other than Miranda Vickers. The figure of at least 250,000 Chams in Albania is also cited by Robert Elsie [here]. In conjunction with the source I recently added that cites 85,000 (mostly Cham) Albanians emigrating from Greece to Turkey from 1913-1944, before their expulsion in WWII. So the Cham population in the global Cham population in the 1940s was around 100,000 excluding the Chams who may have emigrated to Albania during the same period (and the ones that were already outside of the region to begin with). This should remove any concerns of the 650,000 figure being WP:EXTRAORDINARY. It seems biased to include an unreasonably low, likely outdated, undescriptive figure of 170k provided by "local officials" and not specific figures provided by a scholar, which are in use by other scholars. Also, you were right, the number of Chams expelled was only in the thousands during the 1923 population exchange, my bad. Yung Doohickey (talk) 23:13, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

Doubling in 3 decades is an increase of 100%, not 500%. An increase of 500% would make the Chams the world's fastest growing population in the 20th century. So yes, it is impossible for such an increase to occur. The number of Chams from Greece that were sent to Turkey in 1923 was minuscule, because the League of Nations forced the Greek government to stop it; this is well known. 250k Chams in Albania is also extremely high, it's more than 10% of Albanian's total population. Yet, their political parties scarcely get more than 1-2% of the vote. Even if not all Chams vote for the Cham parties, something is clearly way off. Adding up the figures in the infobox is WP:SYNTH, that is out of the question. And the new source you brought just repeats Vickers' claims without any bibliography, again. How were these figures arrived at? We are not told, just given sweeping estimates. The claim of 650k Chams (roughly 10% of all Albanians) is WP:EXTRAORDINARY, only high quality demographic sources that explain their method will be acceptable. Khirurg (talk) 01:37, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

Well, it was less than a 500% increase and it happened in the span of 8 decades instead of 3. You're right that the number of Chams expelled in 1923 was negligible, and I've conceded that point already. You've stated that 250k Chams in Albania is too high, but that is simply your opinion, which contradicts the WP:RS I've provided from Elsie and Vickers. Keeping 440,000 in the total is also WP:SYNTH and removing 650,000 is at least WP:POVPUSHING. I don't see how this figure is WP:EXTRAORDINARY considering it would imply Chams are 6.5-9.3% of the Albanian population. How is this extraordinary? It clearly isn't refuted nor contradicted by any reputable source, nor is it impossible given we know that there were circa 50-70k Chams in Greece in the 1940s, up to 85k in Turkey at this time, and we don't know how many lived in Albania or other areas at this time. So this increase is not impossible nor is it an extraordinary claim. Yung Doohickey (talk) 02:12, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

Vickers cites Selman Sheme for the demographic data she uses. This is found in the bibliography at the end of her report. Since she's a reputable scholar, and her figures are cited by other scholars, and her figures have a source, this should clear up all concerns on WP:EXTRAORDINARY; these figures seem to be well established and have not been disputed. Chams making up 6.5-9.3 percent of the global Albanian population (7-10 million) is not WP:EXTRAORDINARY. Yung Doohickey (talk) 22:31, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

Vickers does not cite anyone for the figure of 690k Chams, I have not idea where you got that from. Sheme appears to be cited only for economic figures. In any case Vickers' publication is an internal government agency publication and not peer-reviewed, and should not be used at all, especially for anything remotely controversial. Prior to WW2, virtually all Chams were in Greece, where they did not number more than 60k (even the highly partisan and dubious Italian census during the occupation could not come up with more than 54k Chams, most other estimates are at 40k). So the increase from 80k to 690k is absolutely massive and would make them the world's fastest growing population in the 20th century. This is even more extreme if we look at the figures for Albania, where ~20k Cham refugees suddenly multiplied into 250k in the space of a few decades. Sorry, but there's just no way. The encyclopedia cannot mislead its readers so blatantly. There aren't, and have never been ~700k Chams. Khirurg (talk) 04:21, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Vickers has a footnote after the paragraph where she mentions the 400k in diaspora and 250k in Albania. Vickers' figures are cited in the bibliography ("For an authoritative account of the settlement, geography, demography and economy of Chameria see: Selman Sheme, Cameria – vendi, popullsia dhe jeta ekonomike, Tirane, 2005"). I'm not sure what leads you to believe that this publication isn't peer reviewed. Her figures are still used by other scholarly sources, unless those aren't peer reviewed or academic either? In a 2002 publication, she gives a figure of ~200,000 Chams in Albania, which is consistent with the 250,000 figure she provided in 2007.[here] Do any sources state that all/majority of the Chams lived in Greece? What about the emigration of 85,000 Albanians - mostly Chams - from 1913-1944?[source] The only estimate of all Chams I could find from that long ago is 200,000 based on Armenian American estimates in 1912.[page 295] I know this estimate in particular is probably too old to be reliable, but even if it were off by 100,000, it'd still make the 690,000 figure likely. I think Vickers estimates ~150,000 Chams in Albania are descended from the deportees from WWII (which is more than possible), which the rest were likely there prior to expulsion (probably through simple emigration). Yung Doohickey (talk) 04:50, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure what leads you to believe that this publication isn't peer reviewed. Sounds like you do not understand what peer review is or how it works. If that's the case, you shouldn't be editing this topic. Even if we take into account the 85k migrants (a very high figure, the source itself is dubious), and add that to ~40k in Greece (the most common estimate), that's 120k Chams in 1944, which would still imply an increase of 400%-500% in 6 decades to get to Vickers' non-peer-reviewed figures. Not to mention you have not addressed my argument how we went from ~25k Chams in Albania at the end of 1945, to 250k in the space of a few decades. This is my last post on the topic. You are just repeating the same arguments over and over while trying to maximize the numbers as much as possible, as you are doing across multiple articles. Khirurg (talk) 04:04, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Vickers is cited by other scholars, if you insist that she isn't WP:RS, then you should inquire on the WP:RSN about her source, Elsie's and Ahmed's. Even if we take into account the 85k migrants (a very high figure, the source itself is dubious), and add that to ~40k in Greece (the most common estimate), that's 120k Chams in 1944, which would still imply an increase of 400%-500% in 6 decades to get to Vickers' non-peer-reviewed figures. This argument is WP:SYNTH and fails to account for Chams that already lived in or have emigrated to Albania prior to WWII. You have not cited a single source throughout this entire discussion, nor elaborated on your concerns. Not to mention you have not addressed my argument how we went from ~25k Chams in Albania at the end of 1945, to 250k in the space of a few decades. Yes I did, in my previous response: I think Vickers estimates ~150,000 Chams in Albania are descended from the deportees from WWII (which is more than possible), which the rest were likely there prior to expulsion (probably through simple emigration). If you refuse to continue the discussion, and reject all of my arguments, I don't see how we can resolve this without other editors joining in. Yung Doohickey (talk) 06:00, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Since this discussion isn't going anywhere anytime soon, I will change the total population to c. 690,000 for the following reasons:

• 170k was a claim provided by Cham Albanians in 1995 of the descendants of the "original Chams" which does not seem to indicate the total Cham population. The Cham refugees set up associations and clubs. These have been revital-ized after the collapse of the communist regime in Albania. According to the local officials they claim that the original Chams were 30,000 to 35,000 and that today their descendants number close to 170,000 (Kallivertakis, 1995:50)
• According to contemporary Armenian estimates, Chams numbered 200,000 in 1912. This would make Vickers' figures more than likely.
• Vickers' figures are used by two other scholars I've cited in this discussion. There is no WP:RS that has been brought up disputing these figures, or offering a lower number.
• In regards to the Cham population in Albania, in Vickers' 2002 paper, she writes The Chams are demanding the recognition of about 4,000 Chams who disappeared as a result of those conflicts, and the property rights of about 150,000 others. [1] Which would imply the refugee population doubled twice in 6 decades (entirely possible) The other 100,000 are Chams who lived on the Albanian side since before WWII.
• Chams emigrated to Turkey and Albania during the interwar period, which can explain their diaspora.

Thanks, Yung Doohickey (talk) 23:29, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

The serial number inflation across multiple articles needs to stop. The Armenian estimates of 1912 are completely worthless. The Vickers source does not cite bibliography and is not peer-reviewed. The number of Chams in Albania before WW2 was very small, so going from 20k who fled Greece to 250k is an increase of an order of magnitude in a few decades, which again would make the Chams the fastest growing population in the world in the aftermath of WW2. No way. Khirurg (talk) 23:25, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Khirurg, listen, what you refusing to get is that the Cham refugees didn't go from 20k to 250k, but, according to Vickers, 35k to 150k, the rest of the Chams in Albania proably already lived there. Please stop the disruptive editing, you can't keep making arguments consisting only of WP:SYNTH. My increase in figures in other articles has nothing to do with this discussion. Those edits have been reverted and I am not contesting them because I understand why they've been reverted. Yung Doohickey (talk) 23:31, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

It is you who is refusing to listen. There were very few Chams in Albania before WW2, to suggest that these increased to 100k is outlandish. By the way, I have re-instated Roudometof, which you removed without good reason. Khirurg (talk) 04:43, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't have exact figures of Chams in Albania before WWII, but I would assume it'd be a fair bit due to emigration during the persecution. I explained why I removed the 170k figure, but you chose not to hear it and you reinstated it without considering my reasoning. Yung Doohickey (talk) 04:56, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

The only explanation I see from you is The figure of 170,000 Chams is 28 years old and extremely low in comparison to the minimum estimate of all countries combined. which is not an adequate explanation. The fact that you think it is too low means absolutely nothing. Roudmoetof is a top notch academic source. And no it's not 28 years old, it is actually from 2002. Let me remind you that populations in this part of the world are no longer growing, but are in fact shrinking. So there is every reason to believe that the Cham population hasn't grown significantly in the last 20 years, and in fact is very likely shrinking as we discuss this. Khirurg (talk) 06:44, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

This was not my only explanation. Please refer to my 1 January explanation (the first bullet point). Thanks, Yung Doohickey (talk) 00:43, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Look, we're not going to remove Roudometof because you think which does not seem to indicate the total Cham population. That's just your own speculation. Btw, no source claims a figure of 690k, you just added the estimated 40k in Greece to Vicker's figure, but that's the very definition of WP:SYNTH. And even the maximum estimates in the infobox only add up to 440k, way below 650k. Khirurg (talk) 02:30, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

That isn't speculation. If it doesn't state it's the total Cham population, it's WP:OR to say that it does. Additionally, the source isn't Roudometof or Kallivertakis; the figure comes from "local leaders", which isn't WP:RS. And even the maximum estimates in the infobox only add up to 440k, way below 650k. They add up to 460k, and it doesn't matter because this would be WP:SYNTH. Combining figures from a single source is not WP:SYNTH, combining them from multiple different sources is. Vickers and Ahmed both have 250k in Albania and 400k in diaspora (and Vickers estimates 40k in Greece). Yung Doohickey (talk) 03:38, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Correction: Combing figures from the same source can be WP:SYNTH, but in this case it clearly isn't. Yung Doohickey (talk) 03:40, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

The 40k in Greece could easily be part of Vickers' "wider diaspora". Adding 40k to 650k is not only SYNTH, but it is duplication. And there is nothing to suggest that Roudometof's figures do not represent the total. It doesn't matter if it's "local leaders", if it's good enough for Roudometof, it's good enough for us. Khirurg (talk) 05:52, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

The thing is, would Chams in Greece (largely containing their native land) be considered in Diaspora? If so, then I can concede that 650k is fine—especially since this is the interpretation per Ahmed. However, the 170k figure is only stated as being the descendants of 30-35k "original Chams." My main point is that nowhere does this imply the total Cham population. He's likely referring specifically descendants of Muslim Cham refugees in WWII. This estimate is also presented as the claim of local officials and not in the opinion of Roudometof or Kallivertakis (probably because the figure is seemingly inflated assuming it's the number of descendants of Chams that fled during WWII). Yung Doohickey (talk) 06:25, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

The 40k (probably fewer now) in Greece are assimilated now. Numerous sources attest to this (e.g. [2] [3]) It's been almost 80 years since the expulsion, it's not like there are 40k flag-waving Albanians in Epirus that can be added to the total. After 80 years of assimilatory pressure, mixed marriages, internal migration, these are Greeks with full or partial Cham ancestry. Regarding Roudometof, it is not what he meant by "original Chams", but there no such thing a "non-original Chams" is there? Khirurg (talk) 00:55, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Your first point is WP:SYNTH, so it isn't exactly applicable here. The problem with Roudometof is that that the figure is clearly not being presented in the opinion of Roudometof or Kallivertakis, but in the claim of local officials. This does not meet WP:V. Also "original Chams" is a pretty ambiguous term, like saying "true Greeks" or "real Albanians". Yung Doohickey (talk) 01:14, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

What other sources "attest to" is not important. Vickers is a source on its own, and says that there are 40k Orthodox Chams in Greece. Whatever their status now, Vickers counts them among Chams, and so do some other RS for that matter. If there are RS that give numbers without including the Orthodox, they can be added next to Vickers' own number which includes the Orthodox. Ktrimi991 (talk) 06:49, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

The 40k in Greece mentioned in Vickers are included among the "400k in diaspora". She does not mention them separately from the 400k. The sentence Today there are approximately 250,000 Chams in Albania and an estimated 400,000 in the wider diaspora clearly refers to the total number of Chams. Khirurg (talk) 16:39, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

In that part the article elaborates only on those Chams who are not Greek citizens nowadays: "Although the majority of Muslim Chams fled

Greece during the Second World War, other displacements occurred during the Balkan Wars of 1912-1913, and during the dictatorship of General Metaxas in the 1930s when many Chams were violently driven from their homes. Today there are approximately 250,000 Chams in Albania and an estimated 400,000 in the wider diaspora, mostly in the USA and Turkey. Despite being granted Albanian citizenship in 1953, many Chams still regard themselves as refugees deprived of their Greek citizenship and the right to return to their property in Greece. The Chams are campaigning for the Greek government to acknowledge the violence perpetrated against them, and for the return of their confiscated properties together with compensation for their use since their expulsion. They also want their Greek citizenship restored." It makes a clear distinction between the Orthodox who are Greek citizens and those Chams who are in the diaspora Whereas in Albania and the diaspora Cham communities have managed to preserve their dialect, traditions and folk songs, in Greece itself those Orthodox Chams, now numbering around 40,000, who were allowed to remain in Greece, have suffered from assimilation and the public suppression of their Albanian heritage and language. As a result, Albanian is only spoken privately in the home. Pretending that Orthodox Chams in Greece are part of the diaspora is ridiculous, and it is merely an attempt to somehow reduce the total number of Chams, after the efforts to remove or tag Vickers failed. I do not mind having 40k Chams more or less in the total number, as it practically is a trivial thing that has no real importance or effect. But I dislike the bad faith I see in your effort to decrease the numbers through RS removal, RS tagging and source misinterpretation. Ktrimi991 (talk) 18:39, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

What's "ridiculous" is claiming a figure of ~700k Chams, which falls under WP:EXTRAORDINARY using a single, questionable source. Khirurg (talk) 18:49, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Well, if we can't get a decisive upper bound of either 650k or 690k, we can use 800k from Adi Hima. Though this estimate is, in his own words, contentious, but he also provides at least 300k in Albania.[4] Also, Vickers' figure is not WP:EXTRAORDINARY because we also have the 650k figure from Ahmed, which isn't that much lower. Her figures are also cited by Robert Elsie. Yung Doohickey (talk) 20:44, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

"Whereas in Albania and the diaspora Cham communities have managed to preserve their dialect, traditions and folk songs, in Greece itself those Orthodox Chams, now numbering around 40,000, who were allowed to remain in

Greece" refers the 40k estimate to those who remained in Greece, not to the diaspora. Ktrimi991 (talk) 07:12, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

This is probably true, which is why I supported the figure of 690k, but since Ahmed's source says there's 250k in Albania and a further 400k in other countries, it could be argued that 40k is included. This realistically wouldn't make much sense considering that Chams are native to Greece and wouldn't be considered in diaspora. Yung Doohickey (talk) 19:58, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

• I strongly oppose the removal or tagging of Vickers. Her work is RS and she is a well-known academic. That is the reason why she has been in the article for a long time, and will continue to do so. If there are other RS presenting different numbers, they can be added next to Vicker's. Editors' own "arguments" with birthrate calculations etc are worthless as far as the article is concerned. Ktrimi991 (talk) 00:38, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Vickers' work has been published by a reliable publisher, the Conflict Studies Research Center which has published works by other academics as well. That particular work of Vickers has been cited in other academic, peer-reviewed works like that one by Oxford University Press and that one by Ohio University Press. Ktrimi991 (talk) 01:05, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

• Comment: Cham figures provided by Vickers are comparable to other figures in the same period in Albanian communities and Vickers is RS. In terms of their demographic impact, as a more rural population Cham had a higher increase rate than other more urban groups. I think that it's better to compare and contrast different sources.--Maleschreiber (talk) 01:11, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Vickers (2010) which is the most updated Vickers publication on the issue reads:

The majority of the Cham population were forcibly displaced from their homes in north-western Greece at various stages from 1913 to 1949 and today more than 250,000 Chams live as refugees in Albania and elsewhere and they are campaigning ever more vigorously for the Greek government to grant them Greek citizenship and to return their confiscated properties with due compensation.

The 250,000 figures includes Cham diaspora everywhere and as such the older Vickers figures should be corrected accordingly. It's not the first time that Vickers self-refutes here older claims though. On her 2007 paper she claimed that Chameria stretched as far as Prespa which is clearly non-historical.Alexikoua (talk) 21:18, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

This is a good point, but the source she cites in the 2010 paper [5] is her 2002 paper where she put the number of Cham refugees in Albania at 200k. The 250k Chams in Albania (not necessarily refugees) and 250k refugees in Albania and in diaspora is probably the same because of a coincidence and not necessarily an error in her calculations.[6] Not every Cham in diaspora is a refugee. Thanks, Yung Doohickey (talk) 21:40, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Well you say that Vickers is unreliable and wrong in her updated statement and that's not a good point to present her as reliable. If we want a specific author to be considered reliable then only the updated figure should stay not the obsolete one. It is more convincing to claim that the updated figure is the correct one than to present an older claim by the same author and completely ignore Vickers' most recent estimation on the issue as ... error. Alexikoua (talk) 21:55, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

The current claim also completely ignores the official figure that lives in Greece; while the 40,000 claim is just the highest claim (40k out of a total population of 55k in Thesprotia by the way.Alexikoua (talk) 21:57, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

I wasn't implying she was unreliable or incorrect. I just said her 250k figure of refugees (assuming ~200k were from Albania per her 2002 paper) is not the same as her estimate of 250k in Albania (total Chams, not necessarily refugees) in her 2007 paper. Yung Doohickey (talk) 22:01, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Not all Chams are refugees. Actually a small minority of them could be considered so, because the son or grandson of a Cham expelled from Greece in Albania is hardly a refugee in Albania. Do not expect Orthodox Chams in Greece to live all in Thesprotia. The Greek part of Chameria is a bit larger and many people from the area have moved from the north to Athens, Thessaloniki etc and also to the Western Europe. Ktrimi991 (talk) 22:05, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Such wrong (and older) higher estimates by Vickers are completely dismissed by the rest of the scholarship. We shouldn't rely on claims that even the author itself has corrected in more recent papers.Alexikoua (talk) 22:39, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Kretsi also raises serious objections on even lower claims of 150,000 and 300,00. Definitely this claim would imply that the rest of the Albanians have really severe fertility issues compared to the Cham community who is reproducing to a x32 scale (from a community around 20k in 1940) in just 3 generations.Alexikoua (talk) 22:43, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

The Cham Albanians include people who had left Greece for Albania, Turkey and even the US before WW2. So you see "severe fertility issues" and the "x32 scale" because you have not understood what you have read. What other sources say do not make Vicker's number worthless. There are different opinions on the Chams' numbers, hence the infobox presents various estimates. Since you are not saying anything new but just writing walls of text filled with source misrepresentation (Vickers has not "corrected" herself) and personal opinions, do not expect any more response. This is not a forum to pass the free time. Ktrimi991 (talk) 22:56, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

The one that turned Vickers' number worthless and claimed that it's an error wasn't me. 250,00 (Cham Albanian diaspora originating from Thesprotia) in Albania and elsewhere is her updated figure (2010). Objections? Ktrimi: I'm simply presenting the argument exactly as placed by Kretsi and yes those extraordinary claims are wrong because they imply that there is a serious fertility issue in Albanian society if we considered this to be true.Alexikoua (talk) 23:29, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

250k (in the 2010 source) is not her figure of Chams in diaspora, but the Cham refugees in Albania and in diaspora, which doesn't represent all Chams. This does not change the accuracy of her previous figures. Yung Doohickey (talk) 23:51, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Kretsi clearly rejects any claim from 300,000 as propaganda based on concrete arguments. Chams moved from nw Greece as refugees (that's why it was called expulsion) apart from a very tiny part around Konispol that isn't part of Greece.Alexikoua (talk) 00:00, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Which publications by Kretsi are we referring to? Yung Doohickey (talk) 00:06, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

It's quite interesting about the quality of Vicker's estimations on Vickers (2002), she cites "Chameria Political Association" about 204,255 in Albania. Also all Chams from Greece are considered refugees by Vickers because they moved from their native place by force. Alexikoua (talk) 00:13, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Well it seems Kretsi is only referring to the descendants of WWII refugees, not all Chams in the World. Chams who already lived in Albania or emigrated (willingly) to Albania or Turkey prior to WWII would probably not constitute refugees. Yung Doohickey (talk) 00:40, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Kretsi 2002: This number (300,000) seems very unlikely when compared to the 20,000 WWII refugees as the average population growth for Albania was 2% per year.

Ok Kretsi is one scholar, but it's not the only one that rejects such data. Zhelyazkova, 2003: In order to wind up the topic of Зams, we should mention that, in the opinion of the Greek scholars, today the Зam population numbers around 80 000 persons. There are Albanian web-sites on the Internet that discuss the theme of the genocide of Зams committed by the Greeks. One can find there publications in which their number is specified to be about 500 000; many of our Albanian respondents believed they exceed this figure many times. As is usual in the Balkans, in such disputes over minorities, the parties are biased, while the truth lies somewhere in the middle. According to our own estimates, based on census data produced by the Special Commission that counted them in the first quarter of the 20th century and recorded their number to be 20 000, the Зams could be about 120 000 - 150 000 people, 90 per cent of them being Muslims. During the period of their expulsion, or flight, after the end of World War II, all Зams of Muslim faith departed, while the Christians remained and were integrated into the Greek societyAlexikoua (talk) 00:52, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

In 2004, he put the number of Chams in Albania at 120k to 150k.[7] Yung Doohickey (talk) 01:02, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

No you are wrong: he puts that number on a world-wide scale. Also all Cham expelled from Greece were considered refugees by Vickers. Time for the necessary adjustments. Alexikoua (talk) 21:23, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

He does: As a result, the problem of the property and number of Çams has been directly linked with the property and number of Greeks in Albania. According to the team’s approximate estimates, today the Çams living in Albania must be around 120-150 thousand per his 2004 paper. Yung Doohickey (talk) 23:22, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

A huge gap lies between 120k and 690k making everyone wonder where on earth the remaining number -the vast majority of them c. 80% - is located (& if we believe that Vickers (2010) is wrong). Apart from Zhelyazkova and Kretsi, Kallivretakis also points such huge figures are simply nonsense:

According to the President of "Tsamouria", "thirty to thirty-five thousand" Chamides left Greece after the war, and today they amount to "one hundred and sixty to one hundred and seventy thousand", a number which, if it were real, would mean, as Aggelos Elefantis observes , that while the total population of Albania tripled between 1950 and 1990, "the Chams in particular increased eightfold. Greek estimates on the other side put them at just 25,000."Alexikoua (talk) 21:46, 12 January 2024 (UTC)