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<div width="90%" style="background-color:#f9f9f9;border: 2px solid black; padding:.9em">
<center>'''Guidelines for editing the Turkey article'''</center>
* Units in [[SI|metric]] [[WP:MOSNUM|Manual of Style]].
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{{ArticleHistory
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|action2=GAN
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{| class="infobox" width="270px"
|-
!align="center"|[[Image:Vista-file-manager.png|50px|Archive]]<br/>[[Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page|Archives]]
----
|-
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* [[Talk:Turkey/Archive 1|Archive 1 - Archived on March 19, 2005]]
* [[Talk:Turkey/Archive 2|Archive 2 - Archived on March 25, 2006]]
* [[Talk:Turkey/Archive 3|Archive 3 - Archived on July 25, 2006]]
* [[Talk:Turkey/Archive 4|Archive 4 - Archived on October 5, 2006]]
* [[Talk:Turkey/Archive 5|Archive 5 - Archived on November 22, 2006]]
The article of 1911 Edition of Encyclopædia Britannica about Turkey:
* [[Talk:Turkey/Archive 6|Archive 6 - Archived on November 28, 2006]]
* [[Talk:Turkey/Archive 7|Archive 7 - Archived on November 28, 2006]]
* [[Talk:Turkey/Archive 8|Archive 8 - Archived on November 28, 2006]]
* [[Talk:Turkey/Archive 9|Archive 9 - Archived on November 28, 2006]]
'''Archives continued'''
* [[Talk:Turkey/Archive 10|Archive 10 - Archived on December 14, 2006]]
* [[Talk:Turkey/Archive 11|Archive 11 - Archived on January 13, 2007]]
* [[Talk:Turkey/Archive 12|Archive 12 - Archived on March 20, 2007]]
* [[Talk:Turkey/Archive 13|Archive 13 - Archived on December 2, 2007]]
* [[Talk:Turkey/Archive 14|Archive 14 - Archived on March 31, 2008]]
* [[Talk:Turkey/Archive 15|Archive 15 - March to August 2008]]
|}

==Map==
[[Image:Location of the Republic of Turkey.png|thumb|300px|How about this one? I removed Greenland and cropped the excessive empty space at left]]

Turkey is an Asian country not European, so why does the map show Turkey as part of Europe? [[User:Signsolid|Signsolid]] ([[User talk:Signsolid|talk]]) 16:29, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

:Turkey is institutionally a European state (the same case with Cyprus). It is a founding member of the Council of Europe (1949) and an officially recognized candidate country to join the European Union, having been an associate member since 1963, and having reached a customs union with the EU since 1995. Turkey is also an associate member of the Western European Union since 1992; which will likewise automatically turn to full membership with eventual EU accession. [[User:Hamam Tellak|Hamam Tellak]] ([[User talk:Hamam Tellak|talk]]) 16:46, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

::Even though the modern state of Turkey since the First World War has tried to make itself as European as possible it is still geographically, racially, culturally, linguistically, religiously, and historically Asian. [[User:Signsolid|Signsolid]] ([[User talk:Signsolid|talk]]) 21:27, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
:::I agree to geographically, racially, culturally, linguistically and religiously related to Asia but I beg to disagree about "historically Asian". Actually Anatolia has been massively of Greek culture for 13 or 14 centuries before it became Turk, and even prior to the Helenism it had always been mostly Indo-European culturaly (Luvites, Hitites, Micenians, Phrygians, Lydians, etc.) and some Old Mediterranean (Cretans, Pelasgians and Carians). Greek was nearly the universal language in Anatolia prior to the arrival of the Turks. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/201.8.254.137|201.8.254.137]] ([[User talk:201.8.254.137|talk]]) 13:11, 24 May 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:Geographically, Turkey is a Eurasian country -- part of it is in Europe and part of it is in Asia, so saying that it is an Asian country is geographically incorrect (as is saying that it's a European country, for that matter). Culturally and historically, I'd say it's just as European as many Eastern European countries. Linguistically, whether it's European depends on how you feel about the [[Ural-Altaic languages]]. "Racially" (in scare quotes because the notion of race is scientifically discredited), Turks are an amalgam of Central Asians and Southeastern Europeans. As for religion, I don't know that Islam is necessarily an Asian religion (though it's less widespread in Europe than in Africa and Asia). So while it may be somewhat controversial to call Turkey a European country, it's hardly less controversial to call it an Asian country. [[User:Klausness|Klausness]] ([[User talk:Klausness|talk]]) 22:03, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

:::I agree Turkey is a mixture of both but I believe it is far more Asian than European for the reasons I stated before. As Turkey is a transcontinental country, which belongs to both Europe and Asia then maybe the map should reflect this rather than how at the moment the map clearly depicts Turkey as soley a European country. [[User:Signsolid|Signsolid]] ([[User talk:Signsolid|talk]]) 22:10, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Why hasn't the map been changed yet to show Turkey is both European and Asian rather than soley European as it does at the moment? [[User:Signsolid|Signsolid]] ([[User talk:Signsolid|talk]]) 02:53, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

:Anyone got any maps that show Turkey between Europe and Asia? [[User:Signsolid|Signsolid]] ([[User talk:Signsolid|talk]]) 02:59, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

[[Image:Europe Asia Location Turkey.png|thumb|left]] This map any good? [[User:Signsolid|Signsolid]] ([[User talk:Signsolid|talk]]) 03:05, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

:I don't like it. I think the map should show all of Europe, since that will allow many readers to locate Turkey more easily relative to known locations. What I might change about the existing map is to scroll it to the right (that is, leave out that big chunk of the Atlantic ocean in the west and add a chunk of Asia in the east instead), and maybe down a bit (to include a bit more of Africa). Also, I might remove the highlighting for Europe (that is, leave the country outlines, but don't make the European countries a darker gray than the others). Keep in mind that the point of the map is to allow readers to see where Turkey is located, not to argue for or against the inclusion of Turkey in Europe; so the purpose of including surrounding countries it to allow readers who may not know exactly where Turkey is to locate it relative to known locations. [[User:Klausness|Klausness]] ([[User talk:Klausness|talk]]) 10:57, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

::Here's the previous map:

[[Image:Map of the Republic of Turkey.png|thumb|300px]]

[[User:Scusate se insisto|Scusate se insisto]] ([[User talk:Scusate se insisto|talk]]) 18:05, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

:::I think the old map (Map of the Republic of Turkey.png) works better than the new suggestion (Europe Asia Location Turkey.png). Not sure whether I like the old one better than the current version (Location Turkey in Europe.png)... [[User:Klausness|Klausness]] ([[User talk:Klausness|talk]]) 21:26, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

::::I like the map at the top which has had the large amount of space in the west cropped off. It would probably look better too if Asia was coloured in like Europe is and the caption below read 'Location of Turkey (red) on the European continent (dark grey) and Asian continent (whatever colour is decided). [[User:Signsolid|Signsolid]] ([[User talk:Signsolid|talk]]) 02:17, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

[[Image:Location of the Republic of Turkey.png|thumb|300px|This is the most accurate, as it shows Turkey according to the Earths contours and shape. The Earth is not flat and thus the other maps are wrong]]

Actually, all of you are misguided and mis-informed regarding Turkey's geographical location. The Earth is not flat, and thus the most geograhically correct maps is the one which shows countries according to their actual physical structure on the Earth. And to some proples dismay on this discussion, Turkey is more European according to the correct maps. Satellite images of Turkey by NASA also support this. Thus this map is the correct map. Thus, scientifically and geographically this map is the most accurate.

: [[User:Tusas|Tusas]], There is no "scientifically accurate" two-dimensional [[map projection]] -- they're all inaccurate in one way or another. As for whether Turkey is geographically part of Europe, that's really a matter of convention. The Eurasian landmass has been arbitrarily divided into the continents of Europe and Asia, for mainly sociopolitical reasons. By convention, the Bosphorus and the Ural mountains divide Europe from Asia, which puts western Turkey in Europe and eastern Turkey in Asia. This doesn't imply that Tukey can or can't be in the European Union, the Eurovision Song Contest, or anything else with "Europe" in the name -- it's just the standard definition of the continents of Europe and Asia. The purpose of the map in the article should be to allow readers to locate Turkey with respect to other countries and to give an idea of the shape and relative size of the country. So I'd say some sort of equal-area projection (see the [[Map projection]] article), preferrably one that does not distort the shape of Turkey too much, would probably be most appropriate. And the map should include all of mainland Europe, a chunk of Asia, and the northern part of Africa. [[User:Klausness|Klausness]] ([[User talk:Klausness|talk]]) 12:51, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

:: Turkey's map in this article should be changed. At least until the issue of whether it joins the EU and becomes a european country. Until then it should be used a map where it is shown as a part of Middle East.


::: Don't forget that the past 2 capital cities of Ottoman Empire were in Europe.--[[User:Ilhanli|Ilhanli]] ([[User talk:Ilhanli|talk]]) 22:34, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

:::: EU is not a "must" for a country to be accepted as "European". Think about it, France suddenly falls into a revolution and becomes socialist (woahhh sounds good but impossible) and leaves EU... What would we call France then? Not European because it is not a member of EU?! Terminology is more complex than many ordinary people think it is. [[User:Deliogul|Deliogul]] ([[User talk:Deliogul|talk]]) 23:01, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

::::: And, since when is Turkey a european country?

:::::: Remeber sick man of Europe? From 16th century on, Ottomans were basically a Balkan (European) empire. They inherited the Roman institutions and much of the culture. In return, their impact on Europe, especially in the East and Mediterranean is more significant than most people think. In turn, Republic of Turkey inherited many of those institutions and not to mention the people. Frankly, Turkey is what it is and a definition here and there is mostly academic. Cyprus is called European, and Georgia is on a future list for Pete's sake, need I add more?--[[User:Hudavendigar|Murat]] ([[User talk:Hudavendigar|talk]]) 18:52, 28 September 2008 (UTC)


::::::: The Ottomans were more Middle East than Europe. And just because Ottomans took over some european institutions doesn't make them european. You have to look at were you are from and what you are. In my opinion Turks and natives of Turkey are not auropean. But if you really insist of being european, you are welcome to be, I just don't agree. I am not european but a middleeastern myself and proud of it.

== Continued map vandalism ==

Users keep uploading new maps to the file where the consensus map had been, or placing altogether different map files onto the article. Is there a way we can stop this? [[User:Adlerschloß|Adlerschloß]] ([[User talk:Adlerschloß|talk]]) 21:56, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

:It is an ongoing project. Honestly, it is really just one guy in Italy/Germany/Turkey/Holland who was/is a professor/special forces soldier/imam/used car salesman/12 year old in a basement with an issue with the map, and with images in general. This whole thing got kicked off a few years back because he apparently doesn't see eye to eye with policy on image copyvios. He even [http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Special:Contributions/Alderschlo%C3%9F impersonated you once] so to answer your question, there is something we can do... just revert to the consensus version (which is something roughly centered on the country), but avoid edit warring over it... honestly, it is just a map. [[User:Hiberniantears|Hiberniantears]] ([[User talk:Hiberniantears|talk]]) 02:30, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

::Thanks for drawing the impersonation to my attention.... I had no idea. Hilarious. [[User:Adlerschloß|Adlerschloß]] ([[User talk:Adlerschloß|talk]]) 02:58, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

:::He's been impersonating me too. I just noticed his [[User talk:Izmir_lee|talk page]] there. Thank goodness he/she's banned. This is an editor that Wikipedia can definitely do without.

:::I didn't notice that Izmir Lee's sock had uploaded a different version. I wouldn't have reverted the map otherwise on the Turkey page, I would have tried reverting the actual map instead.[[User:Pureditor|<span style="color:#8B0000;font-family:Planet Benson 2;cursor: crosshair">'''Pur<font color="#ff4500">edi<font color="#ff7coa">tor</font></font>'''</span>]] 07:40, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

::::[[User:Hiberniantears|Hiberniantears]], if it is just a map, why don't you insisting on putting that centered map? But you have to know that there isn't a really '''consensus''' on it. As you see everybody is trying to change the map. And it isn't nessicery to put a centered map. For example, [[Cyprus]] is in the south of Turkey, but it hasn't a centered map on the article. We can't see Egypt, Israel and other countries surrounding it. --[[Special:Contributions/81.214.119.236|81.214.119.236]] ([[User talk:81.214.119.236|talk]]) 07:48, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

:::::Just a note to everyone. The above ip address is from Izmir, Turkey, and is clearly a sock of banned user [[User:Izmir Lee]]. I removed the posting but he reverted. I shall be putting the account forward to be banned as a sock account.[[User:Pureditor|<span style="color:#8B0000;font-family:Planet Benson 2;cursor: crosshair">'''Pur<font color="#ff4500">edi<font color="#ff7coa">tor</font></font>'''</span>]] 08:31, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

::::::Its a never ending edit war about this whole map thing, does it really matter, as long as Turkey is shown some where in the world, the whole point of the map is to show the location of the country thats it, but I think for Turkey it's a big thing isn't it - a bridge between Europe and Asia, as it wants to enter into the EU. I think the current map is all right, because it centered between the continents, but the color could be different i.e. RED. to match the flag and emblem. [[User:M Miah|M Miah]] ([[User talk:M Miah|talk]]) 10:46, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

:::::::[[Image:LocationIndonesia.svg|thumb|200px|right|Example of a good map.]]The current map actually isn't a very good example. The fact that it is orange unlike pretty much all other world maps which are either in red or green is one thing. However, the important thing is that it does not show which part of the world map the cropped area is. Someone with little knowledge in the region may not be able to figure out where it is on the world map. My example shows what I believe would be ideal; the country being the main focus, an indicator on a small world map on where the area cropped is, and a good colour contrast. It doesn't matter if the colour doesn't match the flag and/or emblem as long as it fits well. --[[User:Hamster X|Hamster X]] ([[User talk:Hamster X|talk]]) 18:10, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Just for the record, because I protected the article to prompt some debate, I have no real preference for the map, and am not allowed to enforce any one version on the article. I locked the article on a version of the map that I wouldn't choose, and only locked because of the warring over the map. My Personal opinion is that I think either Image:Map of the Republic of Turkey.png or Image:LocationTurkey2.png are two of the better versions out there, but if consensus emerges that we should actually view a projection of Turkey that flips north and south, and colors the country in plaid, with a view from Siberia, then so be it. At the end of the day, it would still be an accurate map of Turkey. [[User:Hiberniantears|Hiberniantears]] ([[User talk:Hiberniantears|talk]]) 19:14, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
:The current map [[:Image:LocationTurkey.svg]] is one of the worst, people probably will have no idea where the country is. I cannot believe people have agreed on this one in the last three weeks. A smaller world map on a corner is a must, and in my opinion the (larger) map should include Berlin, Tehran, London, and Moscow (no need to pin them), and some significant portions of their countries. I think we can change the scale, and cover about twice the area without losing important information, so unfortunately US should not be in the larger map, but Great Britain can be shown. It is not so needed but we can show more of North Africa. How do we do the svg version of [[:Image:LocationTurkey2.png]]? [[Special:Contributions/85.103.230.61|85.103.230.61]] ([[User talk:85.103.230.61|talk]]) 20:07, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

== Adding a link of Yellow Pages Turkey to Turkey ==

Hi ,

Two days before, I added a new link of Yellow Pages Turkey on "Turkey" page. I dont know why it was removed. Because Yellow Pages is a popular brand for online directory search, I added it considering many will be helpful with that. Could you please add Turkey Yellow Pages link ? <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Blackcaps|Blackcaps]] ([[User talk:Blackcaps|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Blackcaps|contribs]]) 09:21, 22 August 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

it should change the place of turkey. the biggest city in turkey is istanbul and it is in europe so turkey is european

:What kind of a logic is that? Both [[Moscow]] and [[Leningrad]] (man I want to call it that way) are in Europe but I haven't seen a single map which depicts whole [[Russian Federation]] as a part of Europe. Traditionally, only the lands of former [[Grand Duchy of Moscow]] is given as "European". Whatever, I said many times before, it is not that simple to decide the fate of Turkey in this picture because Europe is a cultural term rather than an actual geographical one. People of the region should decide what we'll do with this confusion. [[User:Deliogul|Deliogul]] ([[User talk:Deliogul|talk]]) 18:07, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

to change the map which is turkey in europe, is an antiturkist movement. Cyprus is in Asia but it is in the europe map, also turkey was. Why did you change the first map. If we look the maps the map of Turkey in Europe is more logical than the last map. <span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/139.179.28.42|139.179.28.42]] ([[User talk:139.179.28.42|talk]]) 09:20, 17 September 2008 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Religion (2) ==

Hi, I have re-edited the section of Religion, because I have thought that it should provide a neutral point of view of the religious currents in Turkey. The current section summarizes mainly about secularism in Turkey. We all know that Religion recently has had a great impact, with the AK Parti winning a majority, Abdullah Gul for President controversy, and the headscarf ban - where the ban was lifted, but then upheld by the constitutional court. I believe that part of the section atleast should mention the active religiousness present in the country, particuly in politics and the headscarf. But however, these entries by me are reverted many times, especially by a banned user (referring me to as an Islamist). I have then re-edited this section. Please read below, and view/consider whether it provides a neutral perspective on Religion in Turkey. Or any suggestions. Thanks! [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 14:44, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

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'''Version 1''':

{{Main|Religion in Turkey|Islam in Turkey|Christianity in Turkey|Judaism in Turkey|Secularism in Turkey}}
[[Image:Sultan Ahmed Mosque Istanbul.JPG|thumb|220px|The national mosque of Turkey, The [[Sultan Ahmed Mosque]] in [[Istanbul]].]]
[[Image:Hagia Sophia 09.JPG|thumb|220px|The [[Hagia Sophia]], one of the historical religious places in Turkey, a former [[church]], [[mosque]], now a museum.]]
[[Islam]] is the religion with the largest community of followers in the country, with 99.8% of the population or around 70 million people identified as [[Muslim]],<ref>[http://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/tu.html#People CIA World Factbook - Turkey - People (Religion)]</ref> of whom over 75% belong to the [[Sunni Islam|Sunni]] branch of Islam. A sizeable minority, about over 20% of the Muslim population, is affiliated with the [[Shi'a]] [[Alevi]] sect.<ref>{{cite book|title=The Alevis in Turkey: The Emergence of a Secular Islamic Tradition|first=David|last=Shankland|publisher=Routledge (UK)|location=|year=2003|id=ISBN 0-7007-1606-8|url= http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN0700716068&id=lFFRzTqLp6AC&pg=PP1&lpg=PP1&dq=Religion+in+Turkey&sig=qrG576JrBxJ4LIBqD-41ALytcAI#PPP1,M1}}</ref> The remainder of the population are mainly [[Christians]], estimated at 120,000 people (mainly [[Eastern Orthodox Church|Greek Orthodox]], [[Armenian Apostolic Church|Armenian Apostolic]] and [[Syriac Orthodox Church|Syriac Orthodox]])<ref>[http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,451140,00.html Christians in Turkey - Spiegel Online]</ref> and [[Jewish]], estimated at 26,000 people (mainly [[Sephardi Jews]] at 96% and a few [[Ashkenazi Jews]]).<ref>[http://www.americansephardifederation.org/PDF/exhibitions/Jewish_Costumes_Early_History_Jews_in_Turkey.pdf An Overview of the History of the Jews in Turkey]</ref><ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.unfpa.org.tr/countryinfo.htm |title=Turkey - A Brief Profile|author=United Nations Population Fund|authorlink=United Nations Population Fund|publisher=United Nations Population Fund|accessdate=2006-12-27|year=2006}}</ref> Based on a [[Pew Research Center]] report, 65% of the people believe ''religion is very important''.<ref>[http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=167 Pew Global Attitudes - Religious Importance]</ref>

Turkey has a [[secularism|secular]] [[constitution]], with no official state religion.<ref>[http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3225651.stm Headscarf row goes to Turkey's roots. BBC News. 2003-10-29.]</ref> The strong tradition of [[secularism in Turkey]] is essentially similar to the French model of [[laïcité]], in which the state actively monitors the area between the religions.<ref name="TR_Secularism" /><ref>[http://www.euromedalex.org/Documents/Prize/AtaturkTurkey_1.doc Atatürk's Turkey, The Holy Republic]</ref> The constitution recognizes the [[freedom of religion]] for individuals. No party can claim that it represents a form of religious belief; nevertheless, religious sensibilities are generally represented through [[conservative]] parties.<ref>[http://shop.ceps.eu/downfree.php?item_id=1490 Political Islam in Turkey]</ref><ref>{{cite web|url=http://cmiskp.echr.coe.int/tkp197/view.asp?item=3&portal=hbkm&action=html&highlight=Sahin%20%7C%20Turkey&sessionid=11294215&skin=hudoc-en |title=Leyla Şahin v. Turkey|author=European Court of Human Rights|authorlink=European Court of Human Rights|publisher=ECHR|accessdate=2006-11-30|date=2005-11-10}}</ref> The [[Presidency of Religious Affairs]] (Diyanet İşleri Başkanlığı) represents the highest [[Islamic]] religious authority in the country, established in [[1924]] after the abolition of the [[caliphate]], where it is organized by the state, under the [[Hanafi school]] of [[Sunni Islam]], which controls all [[muftis]] and [[mosques]].<ref>[http://www.diyanet.gov.tr/english/tanitim.asp?id=13 Basic Principles, Aims And Objectives], Presidency of Religious Affairs</ref> Since [[1586]], [[Istanbul]] has been the seat of the [[Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople]] (unofficialy Fener Rum Patrikhanesi), which is one of the fourteen [[autocephaly|autocephalous]] [[Eastern Orthodox Church|Eastern Orthodox]] churches.<ref>[http://www.cnewa.org/ecc-bodypg-us.aspx?eccpageID=13&IndexView=toc The Patriarchate of Constantinople (The Ecumenical Patriarchate)] by Ronald Roberson</ref>

Turkey prohibits the wearing of the [[Hijab]] or the Islamic headscarf by law - banned in government buildings, schools, and universities, and is an ongoing debate in Turkish society.<ref>{{cite news|url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5414098.stm |title=The Islamic veil across Europe|author= |authorlink= |work=British Broadcasting Corporation|accessdate=2006-12-13|date=2006-11-17}}</ref> The headscarf (known as the Türban in ''Turkish'') is viewed as a 'symbol of [[political Islam]]' by secularists, and the [[European Court of Human Rights]] ruled that the law was "legitimate" in the ''Leyla Şahin v. Turkey'' case on November 10, 2005,<ref>{{cite web|url=http://cmiskp.echr.coe.int/tkp197/view.asp?item=3&portal=hbkm&action=html&highlight=Sahin%20%7C%20Turkey&sessionid=11294215&skin=hudoc-en |title=Leyla Şahin v. Turkey|author=European Court of Human Rights|authorlink=European Court of Human Rights|publisher=ECHR|accessdate=2006-11-30|date=2005-11-10}}</ref>, however also viewed as a '[[religious freedom]]' by conservatives, which is worn by around 60% of Turkish women.<ref>{{cite news |url=http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article1752230.ece |title=Head scarves to topple secular Turkey? |first=Christina |last=Lamb |date=2007-04-23}}</ref> During [[February 2008]], The [[Secularism_in_Turkey#Ban_lifted|lifting]] of the headscarf ban was passed by [[Grand National Assembly of Turkey|parliament]], however annulled by the [[Constitutional Court]] in [[June 2008]], illustrating the struggle between two different identities.<ref>[http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7259694.stm Turkey ends student headscarf ban - BBC]</ref><ref>[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7438348.stm Court annuls Turkish scarf reform - BBC]</ref><ref>{{cite news|url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/world/2002/islamic_world/2144316.stm |title=Turkey: Battle of the headscarf |author=Roger Hardy |authorlink= |publisher=BBC NEWS - BBC |date=2002-07-22}}</ref><ref>[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3231282.stm Culture clash in bomb-hit city - BBC]</ref>



-

: Let us once again remember that our goal is to describe things, not pass judgement on them. Having said that, I believe recent developments should be mentioned briefly, because this article should provide a whirlwind tour, not emphasizing the present to the past (or the reverse). We can go into detail in the [[Religion in Turkey]] article. --[[User:Adoniscik|Adoniscik]]<sup><small>([[User_talk:Adoniscik|t]], [[Special:Contributions/Adoniscik|c]])</small></sup> 14:57, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:: Well I am still unable to briefly summarize these developments of headscarf etc., because most users want large info. in the article ie. Secularism, which i have tried to summarize but reverted. [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 15:31, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

:::I think the section structure above is not that bad. The only problem I see is that some parts are unclear and looks like the statements of someone who already knows the situation in the country. You know many people see the article of Turkey in Wikipedia by chance and maybe without any rooted knowledge about the country. For example; ''"The role of religion in politics has been a much controversial debate most recently, with the rise of an Islamist-rooted government, feared that it would undermine the secular principles of the state, which caused controversy among the people, leading to many protests"''. This part is not good for a couple of reasons. First, what is "most recently" exactly refers to? Second, what do we mean by " Islamist-rooted government"? Third, who is exactly afraid of these religious guys? I know the historical background of the rise of tight religious conservatism in this country, I at least have some understanding of AKP (imho they are "uncivilized religion-freaks") and I'm an individual from the social segment that is afraid of/angry at AKP. You see, I know this stuff but foreigners don't. [[User:Deliogul|Deliogul]] ([[User talk:Deliogul|talk]]) 17:38, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
::::I have tried to fix those passages of which you have highlighted, any suggestion or still not right? please say. Thanks! [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 17:51, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

:::::There is an important thing that you have to learn before editing a controversial article like '''Turkey'''. ''I believe that part of the section at least should mention the active '''religiousness''' present in the country...'' these are yours Tangooman. Secularism is not religiousness. Secularists and Kemalists are not irreligious. They only support secularism in Turkey. You can't summarize secularism in the article how you want because secularism is the foundation of Turkey. [[Secularism in Turkey]] is the main article and secularism in this article is already a summarized version of it. AKP and its agendas can't mentioned in religion section. It's part of politics section. Also i realized you removed the verdict of the [[European Court of Human Rights]] which legitimates the ban of Leyla Şahin's headscarf in Turkey. Please tell me, why did you remove it? Ha? You are not a neutral editor like you say... And i also added the current version of the religion section of the article for comparison both of them.. --<span style="border: 2px black solid; background-color: black;">[[User:Turkish Flame|<font face="Comic Sans MS" color="lime">'''Turkish Flame'''</font>]] [[User talk:Turkish Flame|<font face="Comic Sans MS" color="lime"><sup><u>☎</u></sup></font>]]</span> 18:43, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::Sorry I missed that one out, replaced it back into the section. I believe I have fixed the section, because secularism of Turkey is very well summarized, and it is not the AKP only mentioned, but the whole religiousness risen in the country. The aspect of politics is one of the key elements of the this 'conservatism' in society, in relation to the headscarf, which overall views the concept of conservatism of Turkey as well as secularism. This should be mentioned in the Religion section, because these are part of this rise in conservatism. And of course I know secularists are not irreligious and are still Muslims, they believe religion is a personal thing, and should not be involved in politics, right? And you have said religiousness should mentioned as well, well I believe I have done that. [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 22:06, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::: I didn't say ''religiousness should mentioned ''. These are yours. I only put them into my paragraph as an evidence. I don't think we should mention AKP in religion section. Because in Turkey no party can claim that it represents a form of religious belief. We should mention about [[Presidency of Religious Affairs|Presidency of Religious Affairs (Diyanet İşleri Başkanlığı)]] instead of headscarf controversy. --<span style="border: 2px black solid; background-color: black;">[[User:Turkish Flame|<font face="Comic Sans MS" color="lime">'''Turkish Flame'''</font>]] [[User talk:Turkish Flame|<font face="Comic Sans MS" color="lime"><sup><u>☎</u></sup></font>]]</span> 04:56, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::::Yes the law says that, and the parties do not represent a religious belief, but however some of these parties do in someway represent a certain type of people (conservatives). I believe this should be mentioned, how can you not include this information in the article, because it is related to Religion. Currently there is a definite struggle between those favouring Religious identity, and Secular identity. You cannot hide this information, because there is a large religious part present in Turkey, and the secularism should not hide that. For example, say if someone was wondering what is going on in Turkey Religion in the media, they would come to Wikipedia and find there's nothing there, so the article has not really provided such information for the people, it is about providing this information. Headscarf is actually one of the main aspects of this, which part of the Religion of Turkey. All of the information is based on the significance of Religion in the country as a whole, viewing how Religion is present in the country of the people, not exactly politics. [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 11:17, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

* I think the current version of the religion section in the article is enough. The only thing that we have lack of is [[Presidency of Religious Affairs|Presidency of Religious Affairs (Diyanet İşleri Başkanlığı)]]. It should be added to the article. I don't accept your proposal. It's unneutral. --<span style="border: 2px black solid; background-color: black;">[[User:Turkish Flame|<font face="Comic Sans MS" color="lime">'''Turkish Flame'''</font>]] [[User talk:Turkish Flame|<font face="Comic Sans MS" color="lime"><sup><u>☎</u></sup></font>]]</span> 15:50, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
: I have to disagree because, I believe it is neutral because it views both sides of society. In my version it mentions conservatism present and the secularism present. But in the one below, it only views the secularism and thats it - how is that neutral? It does not make sense to say my one is 'unneutral', because I have tried the very best to balance it out between both of these ideologies. Please look at it, and you will see that there is more information of secularism present then there is conservatism, but in comparison to other revision, it is more neutral. [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 16:00, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

* As you can see, the main articles of this section are [[Religion in Turkey]], [[Islam in Turkey]], [[Christianity in Turkey]], [[Judaism in Turkey]] and [[Secularism in Turkey]]. Not '''Conservatism in Turkey'''. So your version should be added in politics section with more neutrality. AK Parti is not a religion (like Islam and Christianity) or a religious group (like Muslims and Christians). --<span style="border: 2px black solid; background-color: black;">[[User:Turkish Flame|<font face="Comic Sans MS" color="lime">'''Turkish Flame'''</font>]] [[User talk:Turkish Flame|<font face="Comic Sans MS" color="lime"><sup><u>☎</u></sup></font>]]</span> 16:15, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
: ??? This conservatism/secularism clash section presents the ''religiousness'' of the country, it is related to ''Religion'', that is why the section is called that. It is also related to the articles of Religion in Turkey, Islam in Turkey and Secularism in Turkey, where these articles do in some way have these informations of political controversies, relating to the role of religion. Conservatism, is another word for ''religiousness', you can't create an article called that. These parties have been involved in some way in favor of ''religiousness' with the headscarf etc., this is one of the main topics of Religion present in today's Turkey. [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 16:22, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

* Look! You wrote above '''''political controversies'''''. This is not about religion as you say. And there is no ''religiousness'' in Turkey except atheists. Secularists are also Muslim and believe in God. According to Eurobarometer's recent survey, 95% of Turkish people stated that religion is important. How can they be irreligious? And headscarf issue is part of politics. Because it is a political symbol of AKP. Remember, AKP's anti- secularist closure case which accepted by 6 (majority) of the 11 members of the [[Constitutional Court of Turkey]] but it didn't shut down because 7 members had to accept it according to laws. So it is an obvious political symbol. Not religious. --<span style="border: 2px black solid; background-color: black;">[[User:Turkish Flame|<font face="Comic Sans MS" color="lime">'''Turkish Flame'''</font>]] [[User talk:Turkish Flame|<font face="Comic Sans MS" color="lime"><sup><u>☎</u></sup></font>]]</span> 16:56, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
: This section will never be complete unless it covers the Christian institutions properly also. Istanbul is the seat of Greek-Orthodox Church and one can not tell that from this article for example. Political commentary should also be not included. This is not the place to analyze current political party platforms and make judgements and worse, tie them to religion. Politics is NOT a religious activity.--[[User:Hudavendigar|Murat]] ([[User talk:Hudavendigar|talk]]) 17:52, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
:: I completely agree with [[User:Hudavendigar|Murat]]. Politics isn't a religious activity. Also we should mention about [[Presidency of Religious Affairs|Presidency of Religious Affairs (Diyanet İşleri Başkanlığı)]] and '''Greek-Orthodox Church in Istanbul''' which is still active from Byzantine period.
::: Religiousness does not refer to those who have a religion, but who are 'religious' - meaning [[devout]]. One who visits the article will only go away knowing the only fact that people are secular, but without taking knowledge that there are also many devout Muslims present in Turkey. With all the secularism info, and not 'religiousness' (devout Muslims) available, then that is biased. All are Muslims, but there are two sections. One secular Muslims, and one religious or devout Muslims. That is what I have included. And I have not mentioned AKP. This political information of headscarves and such, is information relating to the rise of conservatism/devoutness/religiousness of some of the Turkish people, which overall looks at the society as a whole, not just politics, but Religion in Society. [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 18:41, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
::::You have mentioned AKP as ''islamic rooted governments''. As you see all users disagree with you. Politics isn't a religious activity. And islam is mentioned enough in the article. If you want to improve the article, add something about other religions in Turkey like '''[[Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople]]''' and '''[[Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch]]''' and several others. --<span style="border: 2px black solid; background-color: black;">[[User:Turkish Flame|<font face="Comic Sans MS" color="lime">'''Turkish Flame'''</font>]] [[User talk:Turkish Flame|<font face="Comic Sans MS" color="lime"><sup><u>☎</u></sup></font>]]</span> 18:55, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::OK i have added the Diyanet İşleri Başkanlığı information, i'll try to improve this further. [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 19:01, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::You have to add it to the current version, not your version. Because nobody accepted it. --<span style="border: 2px black solid; background-color: black;">[[User:Turkish Flame|<font face="Comic Sans MS" color="lime">'''Turkish Flame'''</font>]] [[User talk:Turkish Flame|<font face="Comic Sans MS" color="lime"><sup><u>☎</u></sup></font>]]</span> 19:12, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::Well first let me fix my version, and then we'll decide on that. I will move the politics information to the Government and Politics section. However I will add a few information of the headscarf, after the mentioning of the ban for a fair data. [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 21:27, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

* '''Politics''' section sort: During the period of [[2007]]-[[2008]], the fear of Islam in politics began to be a very controversial debate, where [[conservative]] governments (mainly by the [[AK Parti]]) have been involved with non-secular activities, which many people believe could undermine the secular principles of the state, this has led to many [[Republic Protests|protests]] against these non-secular acts, where the [[Secularism_in_Turkey#Ban_lifted|lifting]] of the headscarf ban was passed by [[Grand National Assembly of Turkey|parliament]], however annulled by the [[Constitutional Court]]. The chief prosecutor then asked the court to ban the AK Parti (which has Islamist roots) for being involved in non-secular activities, however escaped the ban proposal by just one vote.<ref>[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7297390.stm Move to ban ruling Turkish party - BBC]</ref><ref>[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7533414.stm Turkey's ruling party escapes ban - BBC]</ref>

* I have re-edited the section again, please view and hopefully it is more suitable for the section. I hope you can re-consider if you can, or any problems please suggest these and I could be able to fix it hopefully. Thank you! [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 22:17, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

* Ok, add these '''Politics''' section to the current politics section in the article. But the religion section is still unacceptable. Stop trying to edit the religion section. --<span style="border: 2px black solid; background-color: black;">[[User:Turkish Flame|<font face="Comic Sans MS" color="lime">'''Turkish Flame'''</font>]] [[User talk:Turkish Flame|<font face="Comic Sans MS" color="lime"><sup><u>☎</u></sup></font>]]</span> 15:50, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
: I have just added it now in that section, thanks.

* Is there anything wrong with the 'Religion' section then, please point out the negativities in that please. I don't think there is a real problem because, the only thing that is mentioned is that the headscarf is banned, but also worn by a majority. Is it the clash info or something? [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 16:11, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
: I have edited that section again, please view, thanks! [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 16:14, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

* Yes, headscarf is banned again, i know. But it isn't worn by a majority. It's according to [[Turkish Economic and Social Studies Foundation]] which is controlled by the government. See [[Think tank#Turkey]]. So it is unneutral. And headscarf and hijab are different. Headscarf which covers part of the head, not all head and hair, is a tradition among villager women. But hijab, which covers all over the body, is a symbol of islam and political islam. I think current religion section is good enough except Diyanet İşleri Başkanlığı and Greek Orthodox Church of Constantinople and Antioch --<span style="border: 2px black solid; background-color: black;">[[User:Turkish Flame|<font face="Comic Sans MS" color="lime">'''Turkish Flame'''</font>]] [[User talk:Turkish Flame|<font face="Comic Sans MS" color="lime"><sup><u>☎</u></sup></font>]]</span> 16:33, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
: But in Turkey the headscarf means the covering of the hair in any type of conservative fashion or Islamic fashion. Some women do not wear the full way of wearing the hijab, but do wear the headscarf, which in any way is viewed as a threat to the secular system (type 'Turkey headscarf' on Google, many sources appear, but 'Turkey hijab' a lot but moderate.) The headscarf is actually worn by a majority of women in Turkey, in many sources including American and British, do cite that it is worn by at least 60% of the women (type 'Turkey headscarf 60 percent' on Google). There are no other sources to view how many exact women where it, I believe if it based on many sources then it is reliable, but you have said it is not, I think that is original research don't you think ? [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 16:44, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

* I know my country better than you :) So listen to me carefully. Hijab (''Kara çarşaf'' in Turkish, literally black sheet in English) is very uncommon in Turkey. Türban is worn by AKP partisans and conservatists which is not majority. And headscarf (baş örtüsü in Turkish, literally head cloth in English) is worn by old villager women which is not a danger for secularism. --<span style="border: 2px black solid; background-color: black;">[[User:Turkish Flame|<font face="Comic Sans MS" color="lime">'''Turkish Flame'''</font>]] [[User talk:Turkish Flame|<font face="Comic Sans MS" color="lime"><sup><u>☎</u></sup></font>]]</span> 17:30, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
<gallery>
Image:Chador near bazar tehran.jpg|Hijab is very uncommon in Turkey
Image:Selcuk woman.JPG|An elder Turkish villager woman wearing traditional village dress including non-islamic headscarf
Image:Hijabexamples2.jpg|Top-left: Turkish women wearing türban which is a political symbol and danger for secularism
</gallery>
: Erm ok then I understand that know, knowing that you are Turkish and all, but I am probably viewing this 'headscarf' as from a western perspective, because the 'turban' is actually referred to probably as 'headscarf' then (because it is a Turkish word). I am coming from a western English perspective, rather than Turkish. Let me make changes. [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 17:44, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

* Ohh! At least you understood. But still we can't add your proposed version to the article. Because it is not reflects the truth. The current version is good enough and doesn't need any new version. --<span style="border: 2px black solid; background-color: black;">[[User:Turkish Flame|<font face="Comic Sans MS" color="lime">'''Turkish Flame'''</font>]] [[User talk:Turkish Flame|<font face="Comic Sans MS" color="lime"><sup><u>☎</u></sup></font>]]</span> 17:50, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
: The reason why I think my version is better is because first, the layout of the section is considerably more neat, and is sectioned very well according to topic. It talks about not just the secular constitution, but also stating the Kemalist ideology of which I have added, more emphasis on the Religious doctrine info, more accurate statistics of populations, it goes more in depth into the headscarf (or Türban) stating that it is banned, also stating it is however worn by a lot of people, and is one of the main controversies of religion present in Turkey. If you compare both of these together, you would see a major difference. You would be able to read it more understandably, and gain more information, and atleast a distance away of balanced information at the end. [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 18:07, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

* As you see, all users are disagreed with you. [[User:Turkish Flame|Turkish Flame]], [[User:Hudavendigar|Murat]], [[User:Deliogul|Deliogul]], [[User:Adoniscik|Adoniscik]] (he said we can go into detail in the [[Religion in Turkey]] article, not in [[Turkey]] article) but you are still trying to edit it. No good can be achieved by force. Please give up your obstinacy. --<span style="border: 2px black solid; background-color: black;">[[User:Turkish Flame|<font face="Comic Sans MS" color="lime">'''Turkish Flame'''</font>]] [[User talk:Turkish Flame|<font face="Comic Sans MS" color="lime"><sup><u>☎</u></sup></font>]]</span> 18:27, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
: They haven't viewed or commented yet, but if they do not go in favor of my revision, well all I have to say I am trying to improve the article, by improving how it is presented for the users on Wikipedia, not for myself, it is about what information is provided, and I think the current revision of mine gives a fair look of Religion in Turkey, just trying to help out. OK. Salaam. Thankyou! [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 18:33, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

* Your welcome. Have a good day and good editing! See you! --<span style="border: 2px black solid; background-color: black;">[[User:Turkish Flame|<font face="Comic Sans MS" color="lime">'''Turkish Flame'''</font>]] [[User talk:Turkish Flame|<font face="Comic Sans MS" color="lime"><sup><u>☎</u></sup></font>]]</span> 18:47, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
: Would you be able to point out the reasons of why you are not in favor of my revision and in favor of the other one, please refer to the texts provided, and how they differ from each other. Thanks. [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 19:38, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

::It doesn't look bad. It can be better if we can specifically mention Istanbul being the seat of [[Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople|Fener Rum Patrikhanesi]], which is one of the most powerful Orthodox churches of the world. '''I personally thank the one who mentioned it in the discussion'''. By the way [[Stephan Micus]] was at [[Hagia Irene]] just a couple of hours ago. He performed a great solo concert in which he made history with a Bavarian musical instrument as he sang an old Greek prayer about Mother Mary. I let you dream about it ;) [[User:Deliogul|Deliogul]] ([[User talk:Deliogul|talk]]) 22:10, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Just added that info in as requested, better now? [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 15:59, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
* Yes. Information about ''Diyanet İşleri Başkanlığı'' and ''Orthodox Church of Constantinople (Fener Rum Patrikhanesi)'' are good. We can add them to the article immediately. Not your proposed version. --<span style="border: 2px black solid; background-color: black;">[[User:Turkish Flame|<font face="Comic Sans MS" color="lime">'''Turkish Flame'''</font>]] [[User talk:Turkish Flame|<font face="Comic Sans MS" color="lime"><sup><u>☎</u></sup></font>]]</span> 16:30, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
: Why not my proposed version? Is there really such difference between these revisions, the only difference is the structure of it, more emphasis on Kemalism, more info on the organizations, more info about the headscarf, more comprehensive population statistics. I have improved the section of the article quite well. ??? [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 16:53, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
* No, i don't agree with you. Kemalism does not need your emphasis. Leave this issue to the Turks please. --<span style="border: 2px black solid; background-color: black;">[[User:Turkish Flame|<font face="Comic Sans MS" color="lime">'''Turkish Flame'''</font>]] [[User talk:Turkish Flame|<font face="Comic Sans MS" color="lime"><sup><u>☎</u></sup></font>]]</span> 17:18, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
: Well that just proves the only reason why you are against it because of me being a non-Turkish, Wikipedia does not say articles of a certain country are to be edited by a certain nationality. Regardless of your 'nationality', 'ethnic group' or 'religious beliefs', you should be able to edit anything you like. I find it very offensive. So therefore I believe your argument of this discussion is not valid due to these personal reasons. [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 17:28, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
*You have the right to edit Wikipedia's non-Bangladeshi articles too! But you are not well-informed about Kemalism, Islam in Turkey, Secularism in Turkey, Christianity in Turkey, Judaism in Turkey... I said ''Leave this issue to the Turks''. Because we know it better than you and truth of the Wikipedia is the most important thing. Do it for Wikipedia and edit the articles which you know well. For example i have never edited [[Bangladesh]] because i don't know anything about it... --<span style="border: 2px black solid; background-color: black;">[[User:Turkish Flame|<font face="Comic Sans MS" color="lime">'''Turkish Flame'''</font>]] [[User talk:Turkish Flame|<font face="Comic Sans MS" color="lime"><sup><u>☎</u></sup></font>]]</span> 17:37, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
: That information was not even present, so you cannot say 'leave it to the Turks' because no one has even bothered to enter in it, and when someone does, *that person* is attacked even though he is contributing for article, and they haven't. Completely makes sense. By the way how did you know I edit Bangladesh articles (which I don't), the only person who ratified that was the other Ayca somethin' guy. ? [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 18:40, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
*[http://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Bangladesh&diff=prev&oldid=166573762], [http://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Islam_in_Bangladesh&diff=242532498&oldid=242276904], [http://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Bangladesh&diff=prev&oldid=243868169], [http://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=British_Bangladeshi&diff=prev&oldid=243707884]... are they enough to prove? --<span style="border: 2px black solid; background-color: black;">[[User:Turkish Flame|<font face="Comic Sans MS" color="lime">'''Turkish Flame'''</font>]] [[User talk:Turkish Flame|<font face="Comic Sans MS" color="lime"><sup><u>☎</u></sup></font>]]</span> 18:51, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
: Yes I make little contributions here and there (not significantly). And is not relevant I think of discussing this at all. [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 18:55, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

::Turkish Flame, keeping Kemalism as a secret shrine is not a good idea. You argued that only Turks have right to deal with it, which is not an academic standing. All such issues are global and you can't take them from the hands of the "foreigners". If it was how the world operates, then you, as a Turk, wouldn't have a chance to discuss [[National Socialism]] because it's German, [[Socialist Realism]] because it's Russian or [[Liberalism]] because it's British (or we must say "Western" instead) etc. [[User:Deliogul|Deliogul]] ([[User talk:Deliogul|talk]]) 14:57, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

-
'''Version 2 (current)''':

{{Main|Religion in Turkey|Islam in Turkey|Christianity in Turkey|Judaism in Turkey|Secularism in Turkey}}
[[Image:Edirne 7333 Nevit.JPG|thumb|left|220px|The [[Selimiye Mosque]] in [[Edirne]], one of the prominent historical mosques in Turkey]]
[[Image:Protect Your Republic Protest - 1 (2007-04-14).jpg|thumb|[[Republic Protests]] took place in 2007 in support of the [[Kemalist ideology|Kemalist reforms]], particularly [[Secular state|state secularism]] and [[democracy]]]]

[[Islam]] is the religion with the largest community of followers in the country, where 99.8% of the population is nominally [[Muslim]],<ref>[http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/3432.htm Bureau of European and Eurasian Affairs - Background Note: Turkey]</ref> of whom over 75% belong to the [[Sunni Islam|Sunni]] branch of Islam. A sizeable minority, about over 20% of the Muslim population, is affiliated with the [[Shi'a]] [[Alevi]] sect.<ref>{{cite book|title=The Alevis in Turkey: The Emergence of a Secular Islamic Tradition|first=David|last=Shankland|publisher=Routledge (UK)|location=|year=2003|id=ISBN 0-7007-1606-8|url= http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN0700716068&id=lFFRzTqLp6AC&pg=PP1&lpg=PP1&dq=Religion+in+Turkey&sig=qrG576JrBxJ4LIBqD-41ALytcAI#PPP1,M1}}</ref> The [[Bektashi]] belong to a [[Sufi]] order of Islam that is indigenous to Turkey, but also has numerous followers in the [[Balkan peninsula]]. Islam arrived in the region that comprises present-day Turkey, particularly the eastern provinces of the country, as early as the 7th century AD. Turkey also has numerous important sites for [[Judaism]] and [[Christianity]], being one of the birth places of the latter. As of today, there are thousands of historical [[mosque]]s, [[church]]es and [[synagogue]]s throughout the country which are still active. The mainstream [[Hanafi]]te school of [[Sunni Islam]] is largely organized by the state, through the [[Diyanet İşleri Başkanlığı|Religious Affairs Directorate]], which controls all [[mosque]]s and Muslim clerics. The remainder of the population belongs to other faiths, particularly [[Christianity|Christian]] denominations ([[Eastern Orthodox Church|Greek Orthodox]], [[Armenian Apostolic Church|Armenian Apostolic]], [[Syriac Orthodox Church|Syriac Orthodox]], [[Catholic Church|Catholic]] and [[Protestant Church|Protestant]]), and [[Judaism]] (mostly [[Sephardi Jews]], and a relatively smaller [[Ashkenazi]] community.)<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.unfpa.org.tr/countryinfo.htm |title=Turkey - A Brief Profile|author=United Nations Population Fund|authorlink=United Nations Population Fund|publisher=United Nations Population Fund|accessdate=2006-12-27|date=2006}}</ref> According to a [[Pew Research Center]] report in 2002, 65% of the people in Turkey believe ''"religion is very important"'',<ref name=Pew Research Center>{{citeweb|url=http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=167|title=Pew Global Attitudes Project: Religion is very important|accessdate=2002-12-19}}</ref> while according to a [[Eurobarometer]] poll in 2005, 95% of Turkish citizens responded that ''"they believe there is a [[God]]"''.<ref>[http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/ebs/ebs_225_report_en.pdf Eurobarometer Poll, 2005]</ref>

Turkey has a [[secularism|secular]] [[constitution]], with no official state religion.<ref>[http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3225651.stm Headscarf row goes to Turkey's roots. BBC News. 2003-10-29.]</ref> The strong tradition of [[secularism in Turkey]] is essentially similar to the French model of [[laïcité]], in which the state actively monitors the area between the religions.<ref name="TR_Secularism" /> The constitution recognizes the [[freedom of religion]] for individuals, whereas the religious communities are placed under the protection and jurisdiction of the state and can't become involved in the political process (e.g. by forming a religious party) or establish faith-based schools. No political party can claim that it represents a form of religious belief; nevertheless, religious sensibilities are generally represented through conservative parties.<ref name="TR_Secularism" /> Turkey prohibits by law the wearing of [[Hijab|religious headcover]] and theo-political symbolic garments for both genders in government buildings, schools, and universities;<ref>{{cite news|url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5414098.stm |title=The Islamic veil across Europe|author= |authorlink= |work=British Broadcasting Corporation|accessdate=2006-12-13|date=2006-11-17}}</ref> the law was upheld by the Grand Chamber of the [[European Court of Human Rights]] as "legitimate" in the ''Leyla Şahin v. Turkey'' case on November 10, 2005.<ref>{{cite web|url=http://cmiskp.echr.coe.int/tkp197/view.asp?item=3&portal=hbkm&action=html&highlight=Sahin%20%7C%20Turkey&sessionid=11294215&skin=hudoc-en |title=Leyla Şahin v. Turkey|author=European Court of Human Rights|authorlink=European Court of Human Rights|publisher=ECHR|accessdate=2006-11-30|date=2005-11-10}}</ref>

-

I don't have time for a protracted debate, but it seems to me that there is disagreement over the meaning of some terms, such as "secularism", "hijab" and so on. I don't actually see a major difference between the revisions being suggested, but I may well have missed the fine print. Some people said that the issue is political and not religious, but this assumes the choices are mutually exclusive. The opposition to the AKP is based on their religious stance, is it not? That is what the closer case was about, after all. --[[User:Adoniscik|Adoniscik]]<sup><small>([[User_talk:Adoniscik|t]], [[Special:Contributions/Adoniscik|c]])</small></sup> 22:54, 9 October 2008 (UTC)


* I have re-edited the section to present a neutral point of view of the Religion section in Turkey (Version 1), however is reverted continiously by other editors, re-edited even further, but still not accepted. Please add comments below whether you '''Agree''' with the revision of which I have created (Version 1) or '''Disagree''' with the revision (accepting current revision - V2):

:<span style="color:#FF4F00;">'''Consensus vote for Version 1 - Agree or Disagree?'''</span>

* '''Agree''' and accept it because, I have tried the very best to present a neutral section (between secularism and other details). [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 15:17, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

* '''Abstain''' based on the comments above. More referenced statistics on the numbers of people with various religious beliefs is helpful, but even more helpful would be referenced statistics on the degree to which the people with particular religious beliefs are devout in those beliefs, even within political parties. Also, spelling out what is meant by the head/hair coverings would be helpful (covering some hair, all hair, the whole head, or the whole body). Info on the timing of the various events relating to the head/hair covering controversy would also be helpful. Referenced info on Istanbul being the center of the Eastern Orthodox Church would also be helpful. I am also adding this reference<ref name="TR_Secularism">{{cite book|title=Religion and Politics in Turkey|first=Ali|last=Çarkoǧlu|publisher=Routledge, UK|year=2004|isbn=0-4153-4831-5|url=http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN0415348315&id=t5G_zw9exMQC&pg=PP1&lpg=PP1&ots=nBltWxHPjd&dq=Religion+in+Turkey&sig=gLF9WOvOo0qZO5iwyUQSUc26Ya0#PPA28,M1 }}</ref> to this page to make this page look better. &nbsp; — [[User:Jeff G.|Jeff G.]] ([[User:Jeff G./talk|talk]]&#124;[[Special:Contributions/Jeff G.|contribs]]) 16:09, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
:: Thanks for your comments. [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 16:40, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

- I have added the information to the article again, for another round of consensus, if no edit then OK, according to the policy. [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 17:25, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

* '''Disagree''' because it smells like AK Parti's propagandas and removing [[Republic Protests]] photo is unacceptable. I only support adding information about ''Diyanet İşleri Başkanlığı'' and ''Eastern Orthodox Church of Constantinople''. Secularism is the foundation of the Republic of Turkey and it can't be overshadowed. --<span style="border: 2px black solid; background-color: black;">[[User:Turkish Flame|<font face="Comic Sans MS" color="lime">'''Turkish Flame'''</font>]] [[User talk:Turkish Flame|<font face="Comic Sans MS" color="lime"><sup><u>☎</u></sup></font>]]</span> 18:45, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

* '''Disagree'''. What are you trying to justify? '''TURKEY IS NOT AS RUDE AS YOU KNOW'''. We have lots of modern women in our streets. The turban is a choice. Not a political symbol. But AKP made it a symbol, and every European believe that we are rude and inductive. Let's try to be honest. '''WHY DOES EVERY PERSON LIKE YOU WANTS TO DESTROY TURKEY?''' The muslims like you; shows bad profile to Western community. Please try to choose modern [[Islam]]. With respect. Good luck. --♪♫<span style="font-family: verdana;">[[Kullanıcı:Atakan0652|<span style="color:#9A32CD;">'''''A''takan'''</span>]]<sup><span style="color:#0;">[[Kullanıcı:Atakan0652/Katkılarım|'''0652''']]|[[Kullanıcı mesaj:Atakan0652|'''mesaj'''</span>]]</sup></span> 19:56, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

*'''Disagree''' What's your problem, Tangomaan...R U blind?...Gimme one good reason for this, you don't know Turkey 'n Turkish people, maybe you don't know Islam...[[User:Vikiçizer|Vikipedist]] ([[User talk:Vikiçizer|talk]]) 16:45, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
: The voting for a consensus has been '''suspended''' due to issues with two points of views, rather than posting negative comments, it would be more grateful if you can provide a solution to this problem (headscarf info just fine currently.) 16:48, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
::OK mohsin, negative comments:)...I know your point of view, this is your voting...For your mission or duty, whatever...You have to know Islam, Turkey, Turkish people...before voting...[[User:Vikiçizer|Vikipedist]] ([[User talk:Vikiçizer|talk]]) 17:03, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
::: OK... not helping out all. [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 17:07, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
<!-- This should be the last section. Insert new material above this comment -->

* '''Abstain''', because unfortunately, both have propaganda elements from each extreme end. We need to work together in order to present the great nation of Turkey in its own light, not the light of secularism nor the light of Islamism. We need to understand things using the correct terminology, as well as important historical context, without avoiding any of the controversies. So far we have not achieved any of that, and until we can, both versions are completely unacceptable. Both sides of extremism are incorrect: who is to say the Turkish people and their nation can be so simply defined? We are talking about a people who have for over one thousand years created civilizations, and left their mark from Europe to China. Both sides of extremism, both the secular and Islamic extremists, are not giving their due to what Turkey and the Turkish people truly stand for. --[[User:Enzuru|<span style = 'font-variant: small-caps; color: white; background: #FF99CC;'>Enzuru</span>]] 20:29, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
: Thanks for your comments. I have tried to balance that section out to the very best. Leaving out the population stats and Religious positions, the second paragraph looks to be favoring *secularism* information, however in the third paragraph it does include information from both sides of opinions... [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 20:54, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

'''Alternative version''' - I have re-edited the section again, the headscarf controversy will be summarized at the politics section. Please view below and I hope you will come to your senses to accept this one, Thank you! (PS. I have removed Republic Protests, because it is a demonstration, and will not be suitable for an FA article.) [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 22:11, 12 October 2008 (UTC) :

{{Main|Religion in Turkey|Islam in Turkey|Christianity in Turkey|Judaism in Turkey|Secularism in Turkey}}
[[Image:Sultan Ahmed Mosque Istanbul.JPG|thumb|220px|The national mosque of Turkey, The [[Sultan Ahmed Mosque]] in [[Istanbul]].]]
[[Islam]] is the religion with the largest community of followers in the country, with 99.8% of the population or around 70 million people identified as [[Muslim]],<ref>[http://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/tu.html#People CIA World Factbook - Turkey - People (Religion)]</ref> of whom over 75% belong to the [[Sunni Islam|Sunni]] branch of Islam. A sizeable minority, about over 20% of the Muslim population, is affiliated with the [[Shi'a]] [[Alevi]] sect.<ref>{{cite book|title=The Alevis in Turkey: The Emergence of a Secular Islamic Tradition|first=David|last=Shankland|publisher=Routledge (UK)|location=|year=2003|id=ISBN 0-7007-1606-8|url= http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN0700716068&id=lFFRzTqLp6AC&pg=PP1&lpg=PP1&dq=Religion+in+Turkey&sig=qrG576JrBxJ4LIBqD-41ALytcAI#PPP1,M1}}</ref> The remainder of the population are mainly [[Christians]], estimated at 120,000 people (mainly [[Eastern Orthodox Church|Greek Orthodox]], [[Armenian Apostolic Church|Armenian Apostolic]] and [[Syriac Orthodox Church|Syriac Orthodox]])<ref>[http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,451140,00.html Christians in Turkey - Spiegel Online]</ref> and [[Jewish]], estimated at 26,000 people (mainly [[Sephardi Jews]] at 96% and a few [[Ashkenazi Jews]]).<ref>[http://www.americansephardifederation.org/PDF/exhibitions/Jewish_Costumes_Early_History_Jews_in_Turkey.pdf An Overview of the History of the Jews in Turkey]</ref><ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.unfpa.org.tr/countryinfo.htm |title=Turkey - A Brief Profile|author=United Nations Population Fund|authorlink=United Nations Population Fund|publisher=United Nations Population Fund|accessdate=2006-12-27|year=2006}}</ref>

Turkey has a [[secularism|secular]] [[constitution]], with no official state religion.<ref>[http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3225651.stm Headscarf row goes to Turkey's roots. BBC News. 2003-10-29.]</ref> The strong tradition of [[secularism in Turkey]] is essentially similar to the French model of [[laïcité]], in which the state actively monitors the area between the religions.<ref name="TR_Secularism" /><ref>[http://www.euromedalex.org/Documents/Prize/AtaturkTurkey_1.doc Atatürk's Turkey, The Holy Republic]</ref> The constitution recognizes the [[freedom of religion]] for individuals. No party can claim that it represents a form of religious belief; nevertheless, religious sensibilities are generally represented through [[conservative]] parties.<ref>[http://shop.ceps.eu/downfree.php?item_id=1490 Political Islam in Turkey]</ref><ref>{{cite web|url=http://cmiskp.echr.coe.int/tkp197/view.asp?item=3&portal=hbkm&action=html&highlight=Sahin%20%7C%20Turkey&sessionid=11294215&skin=hudoc-en |title=Leyla Şahin v. Turkey|author=European Court of Human Rights|authorlink=European Court of Human Rights|publisher=ECHR|accessdate=2006-11-30|date=2005-11-10}}</ref> Turkey prohibits the wearing of the [[Hijab]] or the Islamic headscarf by law - banned in government buildings, schools, and universities, based on a secular tradition, and is an ongoing debate in Turkish society.<ref>{{cite news|url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5414098.stm |title=The Islamic veil across Europe|author= |authorlink= |work=British Broadcasting Corporation|accessdate=2006-12-13|date=2006-11-17}}</ref><ref>{{cite news |url=http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article1752230.ece |title=Head scarves to topple secular Turkey? |first=Christina |last=Lamb |date=2007-04-23}}</ref><ref>[http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7259694.stm Turkey ends student headscarf ban - BBC]</ref><ref>[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7438348.stm Court annuls Turkish scarf reform - BBC]</ref><ref>{{cite news|url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/world/2002/islamic_world/2144316.stm |title=Turkey: Battle of the headscarf |author=Roger Hardy |authorlink= |publisher=BBC NEWS - BBC |date=2002-07-22}}</ref><ref>[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3231282.stm Culture clash in bomb-hit city - BBC]</ref>

The [[Presidency of Religious Affairs]] (Diyanet İşleri Başkanlığı) represents the highest [[Islamic]] religious authority in the country, established in [[1924]] after the abolition of the [[caliphate]], where it is organized by the state, under the [[Hanafi school]] of [[Sunni Islam]], which controls all [[muftis]] and [[mosques]].<ref>[http://www.diyanet.gov.tr/english/tanitim.asp?id=13 Basic Principles, Aims And Objectives], Presidency of Religious Affairs</ref> The [[Bektashi]] belong to a [[Sufi]] order of Islam which is indigenous to Turkey. Since [[1586]], [[Istanbul]] has been the seat of the [[Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople]] (unofficialy Fener Rum Patrikhanesi), which is one of the fourteen [[autocephaly|autocephalous]] [[Eastern Orthodox Church|Eastern Orthodox]] churches.<ref>[http://www.cnewa.org/ecc-bodypg-us.aspx?eccpageID=13&IndexView=toc The Patriarchate of Constantinople (The Ecumenical Patriarchate)] by Ronald Roberson</ref> Based on a [[Pew Research Center]] report, 65% of the people believe ''religion is very important''.<ref>[http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=167 Pew Global Attitudes - Religious Importance]</ref>

:Right away, I am still given from this that the headscarf is a universally accepted Islamic practice. There is no correct context for me to understand the ban. I think that was the problem with the ''secular'' version as well: no proper context is given to what the hijab is, what kind of Muslims wear it, and why it is banned in Turkey in detail. --[[User:Enzuru|<span style = 'font-variant: small-caps; color: white; background: #FF99CC;'>Enzuru</span>]] 22:19, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
::That is what I have tried to do, but secular extremists really don't accept the 'why?' business for some reason. [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 22:22, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
:::I am pretty sure the secularists are the ones who are very stringent in saying that they see it as a political symbol. That is one important view of it that should be mentioned. Also, like one member brought up, what exactly does ''hijab'' mean in the Turkish context? Second, many Muslim groups such as the [[Alevi]] or [[Nizari]] don't wear hijab, so is it really ''Islamic''? --[[User:Enzuru|<span style = 'font-variant: small-caps; color: white; background: #FF99CC;'>Enzuru</span>]] 22:25, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
::::Also, there has been no mention of military coups when this supposed secularism is threatened, and how this has been an issue with Turkey coming into the [[European Union]]. --[[User:Enzuru|<span style = 'font-variant: small-caps; color: white; background: #FF99CC;'>Enzuru</span>]] 22:30, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::The main user against my edit ([[User:Turkish Flame|Turkish Flame]] maybe a sock) only accepts the mention of secularism and that's it. We cannot have a perspective like that, because we are advised to come up with a neutral solution to this section. The headscarf is seen as a symbol of political Islam, and also mentioned it is however seen as a religious freedom (worn by 60%). The headscarf was seen as backwardness by Ataturk, it was later banned in the 80s by the military as a warning to Islamic parties, and since then is viewed as a political symbol. Any suggestions or edits that could help Enzuru ? [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 22:38, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::In Turkish they refer to the headscarf as the 'Turban' so we should add that as a guide for less confusion, and remove Islamic then. [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 22:47, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::::I didn't mean the word itself, I meant that one user pointed out that headscarves are very often worn by Turkish women, but the [[abaya]]-like stuff isn't. Is this true? Or am I misunderstanding? It is things like this we need to clear before we can do any rewrite whatsoever. And we ''can't'' remove Islamic altogether, because ''most'' Muslims do believe in this hijab. We need to specify what kind of Muslims, or use a non-weasel adjective. --[[User:Enzuru|<span style = 'font-variant: small-caps; color: white; background: #FF99CC;'>Enzuru</span>]] 22:50, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::::Yes the abaya is very uncommon in Turkey, it is mainly the types of headscarves which are wrapped round the head un-loosely the most commonly worn in the world today. People who wear headscarves (the Turban in Turkish) are mainly the conservative people or the religious (how it is view by secularists)[http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/08oCfFk3bIgaT/610x.jpg] [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 22:57, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Information of headscarf ban:
The new law was introduced under a military coup in [[1982]], since then women are forced to un-cover or do not attend, there is however strong supported for the ban to be lifted.<ref>[http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=40534&sectionid=351020204 Turkey to lift headscarf ban - Press TV]</ref><ref>{{cite news|url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/world/2002/islamic_world/2144316.stm |title=Turkey: Battle of the headscarf |author=Roger Hardy |authorlink= |publisher=BBC NEWS - BBC |date=2002-07-22}}</ref><ref>[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3231282.stm Culture clash in bomb-hit city - BBC]</ref>

:I suggest we let someone else do a rewrite and then you make edits to it and see what they have to say, instead of you doing the rewrite over and over. It'll give us a better perspective of what exactly we need to do, and save you a headache. --[[User:Enzuru|<span style = 'font-variant: small-caps; color: white; background: #FF99CC;'>Enzuru</span>]] 23:13, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

* Re-edit paragraph (trying):

Turkey has a [[secularism|secular]] [[constitution]], with no official state religion.<ref>[http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3225651.stm Headscarf row goes to Turkey's roots. BBC News. 2003-10-29.]</ref> The strong tradition of [[secularism in Turkey]] is essentially similar to the French model of [[laïcité]], in which the state actively monitors the area between the religions.<ref name="TR_Secularism" /><ref>[http://www.euromedalex.org/Documents/Prize/AtaturkTurkey_1.doc Atatürk's Turkey, The Holy Republic]</ref> The constitution recognizes the [[freedom of religion]] for individuals. No party can claim that it represents a form of religious belief; nevertheless, religious sensibilities are generally represented through [[conservative]] parties.<ref>[http://shop.ceps.eu/downfree.php?item_id=1490 Political Islam in Turkey]</ref><ref>{{cite web|url=http://cmiskp.echr.coe.int/tkp197/view.asp?item=3&portal=hbkm&action=html&highlight=Sahin%20%7C%20Turkey&sessionid=11294215&skin=hudoc-en |title=Leyla Şahin v. Turkey|author=European Court of Human Rights|authorlink=European Court of Human Rights|publisher=ECHR|accessdate=2006-11-30|date=2005-11-10}}</ref> Turkey prohibits the wearing of the [[Hijab]] or the Islamic headscarf by law - banned in government buildings, schools, and universities, based on a secular tradition, and is an ongoing debate in Turkish society.<ref>{{cite news|url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5414098.stm |title=The Islamic veil across Europe|author= |authorlink= |work=British Broadcasting Corporation|accessdate=2006-12-13|date=2006-11-17}}</ref><ref>{{cite news |url=http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article1752230.ece |title=Head scarves to topple secular Turkey? |first=Christina |last=Lamb |date=2007-04-23}}</ref><ref>[http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7259694.stm Turkey ends student headscarf ban - BBC]</ref><ref>[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7438348.stm Court annuls Turkish scarf reform - BBC]</ref><ref>{{cite news|url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/world/2002/islamic_world/2144316.stm |title=Turkey: Battle of the headscarf |author=Roger Hardy |authorlink= |publisher=BBC NEWS - BBC |date=2002-07-22}}</ref><ref>[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3231282.stm Culture clash in bomb-hit city - BBC]</ref>
:Still, it says ''Islamic'' headscarf. Let's let one of the others do it and you edit it so no one can complain from their end. --[[User:Enzuru|<span style = 'font-variant: small-caps; color: white; background: #FF99CC;'>Enzuru</span>]] 00:21, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

--- Consensus not met, due to new update to the section which looks acceptable at this situation ( by a new user called thunder somthin). More work needs to be done and improved about the headscarf controversy in the religious communities. [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 13:15, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
The new version in the article was created by possibly a sock (very surprising edits) and has seperated the religious communities and secularism, please view if this is acceptable, thanks: (PS population statistics, and headscarf controversy was agreed by two users.) 16:37, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

{{Main|Religion in Turkey}}
According to a [[Pew Research Center]] report in 2002, 65% of the people in Turkey believe''"religion is very important"'',<ref name=Pew Research Center>{{citeweb|url=http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=167|title=Pew Global Attitudes Project: Religion is very important|accessdate=2002-12-19}}</ref> while according to a[[Eurobarometer]] poll in 2005, 95% of Turkish citizens responded that they believe ''"there is a[[God]]"''.<ref>[http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/ebs/ebs_225_report_en.pdf Eurobarometer Poll, 2005]</ref>

=== Religious communities ===
{{Main|Islam in Turkey|Christianity in Turkey|Judaism in Turkey}}
[[Image:Sultan Ahmed Mosque Istanbul.JPG|thumb|250px|One of the historical mosques of Turkey, The[[Sultan Ahmed Mosque]] in [[Istanbul]].]]
[[Islam]] is the religion with the largest community of followers in the country, with 99.8% of the population or around 70 million people identified as[[Muslim]],<ref>[http://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/tu.html#People CIA World Factbook - Turkey - People (Religion)]</ref> of whom over 75% belong to the [[Sunni Islam|Sunni]] branch of Islam. A sizeable minority, about over 20% of the Muslim population, is affiliated with the [[Shi'a]] [[Alevi]] sect.<ref>{{cite book|title=The Alevis in Turkey: The Emergence of a Secular Islamic Tradition|first=David|last=Shankland|publisher=Routledge (UK)|location=|year=2003|id=ISBN 0-7007-1606-8|url= http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN0700716068&id=lFFRzTqLp6AC&pg=PP1&lpg=PP1&dq=Religion+in+Turkey&sig=qrG576JrBxJ4LIBqD-41ALytcAI#PPP1,M1}}</ref> The remainder of the population are mainly [[Christians]], estimated at 120,000 people (mainly [[Eastern Orthodox Church|Greek Orthodox]], [[Armenian Apostolic Church|Armenian Apostolic]] and [[Syriac Orthodox Church|Syriac Orthodox]])<ref>[http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,451140,00.html Christians in Turkey - Spiegel Online]</ref> and [[Jewish]], estimated at 26,000 people (mainly [[Sephardi Jews]] at 96% and a few [[Ashkenazi Jews]]).<ref>[http://www.americansephardifederation.org/PDF/exhibitions/Jewish_Costumes_Early_History_Jews_in_Turkey.pdf An Overview of the History of the Jews in Turkey]</ref><ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.unfpa.org.tr/countryinfo.htm |title=Turkey - A Brief Profile|author=United Nations Population Fund|authorlink=United Nations Population Fund|publisher=United Nations Population Fund|accessdate=2006-12-27|year=2006}}</ref>

The [[Presidency of Religious Affairs]] (Diyanet İşleri Başkanlığı) represents the highest[[Islamic]] religious authority in the country, established in [[1924]] after the abolition of the[[caliphate]], where it is organized by the state, under the [[Hanafi school]] of [[Sunni Islam]], which controls all [[muftis]] and [[mosques]].<ref>[http://www.diyanet.gov.tr/english/tanitim.asp?id=13 Basic Principles, Aims And Objectives], Presidency of Religious Affairs</ref> Since [[1586]],[[Istanbul]] has been the seat of the [[Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople]] (unofficialy Fener Rum Patrikhanesi), which is one of the fourteen [[autocephaly|autocephalous]] [[Eastern Orthodox Church|Eastern Orthodox]] churches.<ref>[http://www.cnewa.org/ecc-bodypg-us.aspx?eccpageID=13&IndexView=toc The Patriarchate of Constantinople (The Ecumenical Patriarchate)] by Ronald Roberson</ref> The headscarf or [[hijab]] (known as the türban), is worn by the conservative Muslim women in the country, and has had a great impact in Turkish society since it was banned in most public places since, [[1982]]. These type of headscarves are seen as a political Islamic symbol - a threat to the secular system.<ref>{{cite news|url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/world/2002/islamic_world/2144316.stm |title=Turkey: Battle of the headscarf |author=Roger Hardy |authorlink= |publisher=BBC NEWS - BBC |date=2002-07-22}}</ref><ref>[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3231282.stm Culture clash in bomb-hit city - BBC]</ref><ref>{{cite news|url=http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article1752230.ece |title=Head scarves to topple secular Turkey? |first=Christina |last=Lamb |date=2007-04-23}}</ref>

=== State secularism ===
{{Main|Secularism in Turkey}}
Turkey has a [[secularism|secular]] [[constitution]], with no official state religion.<ref>[http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3225651.stm Headscarf row goes to Turkey's roots. BBC News. 2003-10-29.]</ref> The strong tradition of [[secularism in Turkey]] is essentially similar to the French model of [[laïcité]], in which the state actively monitors the area between the religions.<ref name="TR_Secularism" /> The constitution recognizes the [[freedom of religion]] for individuals, whereas the religious communities are placed under the protection and jurisdiction of the state and can't become involved in the political process (e.g. by forming a religious party) or establish faith-based schools. No political party can claim that it represents a form of religious belief; nevertheless, religious sensibilities are generally represented through conservative parties.<ref name="TR_Secularism" /> Turkey prohibits by law the wearing of [[Hijab|religious headcover]] and theo-political symbolic garments for both genders in government buildings, schools, and universities;<ref>{{cite news|url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5414098.stm |title=The Islamic veil across Europe|author= |authorlink= |work=British Broadcasting Corporation|accessdate=2006-12-13|date=2006-11-17}}</ref> the law was upheld by the Grand Chamber of the [[European Court of Human Rights]] as "legitimate" in the ''Leyla Şahin v. Turkey'' case on November 10, 2005.<ref>{{cite web|url=http://cmiskp.echr.coe.int/tkp197/view.asp?item=3&portal=hbkm&action=html&highlight=Sahin%20%7C%20Turkey&sessionid=11294215&skin=hudoc-en |title=Leyla Şahin v. Turkey|author=European Court of Human Rights|authorlink=European Court of Human Rights|publisher=ECHR|accessdate=2006-11-30|date=2005-11-10}}</ref>

= Talk page references =

{{reflist}}

== Proposed neutral work ==

After seeing discussions and edits that have failed to reach a conclusion. I have come up with a new discussion to allow users to work together and come out with a solution that does show a neutral prospective to the very least of secularism and conservatism. Many might be thinking that *no* just secularism, but we all know Religion has had a great impact on society, especially the *headscarf*, this must be mentioned in the article, or we as Wikipedians have failed to create a neutral prospective for the readers, it should not be based on what we believe in, but what the reality is and should be presented rather be hidden.

'''Main points''':
* Religion statistics (my proposed version I believe, because with accurate stats, and *nominally* however, does not apply to every Turk.
* Religious organizations
* Secularism/Kemalism
* Headscarf controversy

Please add any comments (to add or use texts please use references from previous revisions). [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 17:38, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
:Everything needs to be placed in a correct ''context'' most importantly. Without that we're all just going to continue to disagree. --[[User:Enzuru|<span style = 'font-variant: small-caps; color: white; background: #FF99CC;'>Enzuru</span>]] 17:43, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

: I am currently trying to structure the current version on the article again so we can get the main points straight, looks very messy. The image of secular protests look unsuitable because it is a demonstration or protest (should be moved to Politics). [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 17:51, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
:: The protests are part of the context, ie, the view of separation of politics and faith. --[[User:Enzuru|<span style = 'font-variant: small-caps; color: white; background: #FF99CC;'>Enzuru</span>]] 18:00, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
::: Yes, you are right Enzuru. The [[Republic Protests]] image is part of the secularism in Turkey and can't be removed. And also I'm fed up with Tangomaan's insistences. Nobody agreed on his proposed version several times. Tangomaan, you are unable to edit the religion section. You are not well-informed enough to edit. Also the headscarf issue in Turkey is nearly ended. The current problems of Turkey are [[PKK]] (the last 15 martyrs got us closer [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7652246.stm]) and the [[Economic crisis of 2008]]. If you want to help Wikipedia and Turkey, you should add current economical problems of Turkey and cross-border operations into Northern Iraq [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7666423.stm] to the article. --<span style="border: 2px black solid; background-color: black;">[[User:Turkish Flame|<font face="Comic Sans MS" color="lime">'''Turkish Flame'''</font>]] [[User talk:Turkish Flame|<font face="Comic Sans MS" color="lime"><sup><u>☎</u></sup></font>]]</span> 19:02, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
:::: What people cannot really see is the whole point of this is to create the section and bring a clean and neutral presentation, even though some have disagreed (favoring secularism), I have tried atleast to bring a neutral representation of the section, I would like everyone else to try this please, Thank you. Peace. [http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=xIEoWSB63hI] [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] (ps. the headscarf issue still not ended, the gov said will look into the issue again, for example, responding by adding restrictions to alchohol.) ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 21:50, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

You should all be respectful and not be as shameful as you are being. Everyone is trying their best, and yes, people differ in their views, but no one is trying to terrorize this article. We are human beings and are trying our best. Now please, be civil, and love one another. --[[User:Enzuru|<span style = 'font-variant: small-caps; color: white; background: #FF99CC;'>Enzuru</span>]] 21:51, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

I am still allowed to edit the section, for example the structure or images, but keep text the same. Please do not revert, thanks! [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 22:08, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

* The term '''nominally''' - is this word really a good word to use. First let us view what this word means (Dictionary.com): ''by or as regards name; in name; ostensibly: He was nominally the leader, but others actually ran the organization.'' This term basically means 'by name', right. Relating to the text in the article it says '99.8% of the population are nominally Muslims.' I have raised the question because, this term might not apply to all of the Muslims in Turkey. It says here '99.8%... nominally...' This will suggest to the reader that all Muslims are just Muslims by name, this applies to many others, but however it does not apply to many others as well. There are currently no statistics to suggest these nominal Muslims or not, but is this a really suitable term to use? This is how it is summarized In [[Cultural Muslim]] (Turkey) it states: Officially, about 99.8% of the population in [[Turkey]] is reported to be Muslim.[https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/tu.html#People] However, the [[Turkish people]] share a culture that was heavily influenced by the religion of Islam. One can connect to the Muslim aspects within [[Culture of Turkey|Turkish culture]] without accepting all of [[Kalam|Islamic theology]].'' [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 17:26, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
:The fact is, you have no way of knowing what actual number of people are in fact practicing Muslims. "Nominally" suits the purpose here since the 99.8% figure is itself somewhat dubious. I see it used in the same sense as stating that Ireland or Spain have populations which are nominally Catholic in the majority. It recognizes that there exists a religious cultural identity, while not attempting to specify different levels of religious observance. Given the nature of this article, I think "nominally" suits the description. An alternative would be to remove the percentage and simply say something along the lines of "Turkey's population is predominantly Muslim, with additional religious minorities such as...". Personally, I am nominally Catholic; I haven't been to church in years and think the institution is a joke, but I still identify myself as culturally Irish-Catholic. That is essentially what the "nominally" allows. It says this is nominally what people are, without trying to divine the inner religious beliefs of each member of society. In light of the ongoing edit wars that you have been engaged in here, I would say that taking issue with this particular phrase would serve no productive purpose at this time, and in fact would probably just serve to throw more fuel on the fire. [[User:Hiberniantears|Hiberniantears]] ([[User talk:Hiberniantears|talk]]) 17:39, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

* I think this term is suitable for the article. Because 99,8% of the population includes non-practicing Muslims too which are not classified true Muslims by Islam. --<span style="border: 2px black solid; background-color: black;">[[User:Turkish Flame|<font face="Comic Sans MS" color="lime">'''Turkish Flame'''</font>]] [[User talk:Turkish Flame|<font face="Comic Sans MS" color="lime"><sup><u>☎</u></sup></font>]]</span> 17:40, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Hi, I just raised this issue, because I wanted to understand why this is said like that, rather than changing it now. Which I understand now. Are there any sources available then for this term to be used? Thanks. [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 17:54, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
: Found a source which says 'nominally '''Muslim'''' (The Rough Guide to Turkey - By Rosie Ayliffe, Marc Dubin, John Gawthrop, Terry Richardson), so which can be applied to the article then.[http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=TbC6B1uMgSAC&pg=PR5&lpg=PR5&dq=Turkey+Nominally+Muslim&source=web&ots=ox0O6qoGjB&sig=hbTmRzzzlwxjLc98tH7WKOnZ5ts&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=6&ct=result#PPP1,M1] [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 18:11, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

== Compromise ==

Let us all just come together and enjoy a great big Wikihug. Rather than continue an inane argument over the religious identity of Turkey, I propose that we just revert to [http://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Turkey&oldid=1655342 this version]. [[User:Hiberniantears|Hiberniantears]] ([[User talk:Hiberniantears|talk]]) 18:14, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
: I would really love a Wikihug you know. That proposed revision will just do great you know :) [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 21:45, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

* Hi, I have to admit that after I have created a section for both Language and Religion, the article has become a complete mess which may conflict with its FA status. The separation has resulted in continuos edit wars and adding of too much information, which based on the guidelines of Wikipedia, it should basically summarized in the main articles, and developed in the related article. I believe we should move all of this information, and just add the statistics and studies info back into demographics as the best solution for the article, because if you look at other articles there is no section based n Religion ie. [[India]], [[Pakistan]], and even [[Saudi Arabia]] (especially should be Turkey - secular). See: [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Countries#Sections]] to how it should be really structured in order to meet the FA criteria. [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 10:10, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

* Hi, i think your proposed version is not suitable for Turkey. I realized you removed most of the information about secularism in Turkey, half of the language section and lots of images without consensus. Please talk it before changing structure of the article. --<span style="border: 2px black solid; background-color: black;">[[User:Turkish Flame|<font face="Comic Sans MS" color="lime">'''Turkish Flame'''</font>]] [[User talk:Turkish Flame|<font face="Comic Sans MS" color="lime"><sup><u>☎</u></sup></font>]]</span> 14:22, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
: I have noticed this article has gone out of order with too many information, I have realized that much of this information can be developed in other related article, I have moved many of the information to [[Religion in Turkey]], which by the looks of it makes complete sense of what I am trying to do here. Mainly everything should be summarized to the very best in the article, and developed further in the main articles. Please read through the guidelines of the structure of articles, please. Thanks. This must solve all problems. [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 14:32, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
:Plus, not only did I move much of the information of secularism, but also most of the religion information. My reason is given above. Secularism is summarized also, and so is religion info, and the studies. Based on Demographics. [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 14:33, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

::My only objection is for the grammar and typing mistakes inside your new paragraph. Vast amount of information has also been lost, I believe the "picture of a church" was simply too much a burden to bear, not to mention secularism and the decision by the [[ECHR]] on headscarves. Information on "what percentage of Muslims fast, pray, etc." does not belong to the [[Turkey]] article, it belongs to the [[Religion in Turkey]] and/or [[Islam in Turkey]] articles. [[User:Malkoçoğlu|Malkoçoğlu]] ([[User talk:Malkoçoğlu|talk]]) 16:15, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
:::I am sorry but who are you, that has suddenly appeared to this article? A member since 19/10 and have already edited so significantly to the article (mainly religion section). An obvious sock I suppose. [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 16:30, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
::::I feel sad that the [[Turkey]] article has been taken hostage by a Bangladeshi religious zealot who brushes aside any detail which doesn't fit his vision/ideal of a "fully Islamic flavoured" Turkey. At least be more careful not to make so many grammar and typing mistakes, since you're a "native speaker" of the English language, aren't you? You don't know Turkey very well, yet you are keen on blocking the efforts of those who know their country better than you do, just for the sake of satisfying your stubborn obsession regarding Islamic issues. I hope Allah will give you a comfortable seaside mansion at Heaven (with 77 virgin and naked Barbies waiting for you at the beach) for turning the lives of Turkish Wikipedians into Hell. [[User:Malkoçoğlu|Malkoçoğlu]] ([[User talk:Malkoçoğlu|talk]]) 16:48, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::This article has received continuos and never-ending sock-puppetry from the [[User:Shuppiluliuma]] and has brought an illness to the article. I take your comments as an insult (or very funny, hell?). Wikipedia is a serious encyclopedia, and does not have time for idiot or aggressive editors. [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 16:58, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

I think all of you need to hit puberty and actually come to some consensus. This is ridiculous. --[[User_talk:Enzuru|<span style = 'font-variant: small-caps; color: white; background: #FF99CC;'>Enzuru</span>]] 19:31, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

* I have completely changed the Religion section by removing it (including Language) for the best solution of the article because it received continious edits, and moved it to Demographics - all based on statistics, which is outlined in the Wikipedia section guidance. I have again re-edited the section to make more sense, any feedback to this:

{{User:Tangomaan/Sandbox/Demographic}}


:Honestly, who cares about '''details''' such as "83% fasting, 56% Friday prayers, 44% daily salah, etc..."? Such '''details''' don't belong in the [[Turkey]] article, they belong in the [[Islam in Turkey]] article, and have already been added there. You have deleted almost the entire Language and Religion sections, and left behind such insignificant details on the "percentage of fasting, praying Muslims"... By the way, it's spelled as "continuous". [[User:Malkoçoğlu|Malkoçoğlu]] ([[User talk:Malkoçoğlu|talk]]) 20:28, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
::Yes, he is correct, that is way too detailed for this section. Also, remember, these statistics are usually skewed because ''many'' Muslims won't admit to not praying five times a day. I'm sure the source might mention that as well. --[[User_talk:Enzuru|<span style = 'font-variant: small-caps; color: white; background: #FF99CC;'>Enzuru</span>]] 20:36, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
:::The section is based on Demographics of different types of topics, you might as well say who cares about the age groups of the country. These are key statistics of Religion. Plus you have provided negative comments and insults as seen above, have I ever done that? No. It is good to be civilized. [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 21:25, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
::::I blew my top off too, I apologize for that. And actions speak louder than words, my friend, and people are infuriated by your actions moreso than my words, though I am quite infuriated at how Turkish Flame isn't really helping you out. And no, these are not key statistics of religion, how many articles, especially the featured ones, on nations, have this in their demographics section? I feel, and I'm sorry if you think this is wrong, you are trying to push something and prove to yourself or others that Turkey is well religious, as if you are trying to fight stereotypes of it. This might the very issue. --[[User_talk:Enzuru|<span style = 'font-variant: small-caps; color: white; background: #FF99CC;'>Enzuru</span>]] 22:04, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

* I cannot accept this version! Where is secularism in Turkey!?!? Only one sentence!! What are you trying to do Tangomaan?? You are editing without consensus! This is a type of vandalism i think.. --<span style="border: 2px black solid; background-color: black;">[[User:Turkish Flame|<font face="Comic Sans MS" color="lime">'''Turkish Flame'''</font>]] [[User talk:Turkish Flame|<font face="Comic Sans MS" color="lime"><sup><u>☎</u></sup></font>]]</span> 05:32, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
:You know, Tangomaan does have the right idea here, in the other countries pages, secularism only is a few sentences. That has to deal with the government and how it separates from religion, not religion itself. We should follow the standard of other secular countries and their Wiki pages. --[[User_talk:Enzuru|<span style = 'font-variant: small-caps; color: white; background: #FF99CC;'>Enzuru</span>]] 05:38, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

* Turkey's situation is different. Muslim majority secular country (not same as France etc.) And secularism is fundemental in Turkey. --<span style="border: 2px black solid; background-color: black;">[[User:Turkish Flame|<font face="Comic Sans MS" color="lime">'''Turkish Flame'''</font>]] [[User talk:Turkish Flame|<font face="Comic Sans MS" color="lime"><sup><u>☎</u></sup></font>]]</span> 05:42, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
:Whether the country is Muslim, Jewish, or Hindu in majority does not matter. Secularism works for all faiths, even if some interpret Islam (or Judaism, or Hinduism) against that. --[[User_talk:Enzuru|<span style = 'font-variant: small-caps; color: white; background: #FF99CC;'>Enzuru</span>]] 05:50, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
: Exactly that is my point right here, thank you for pointing that out Enzuru. It should be just summarized and that's it (moved large info to the main pages). [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 12:49, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
:: As of those study information, it provides information of the 'Religiosity' of the people (which clearly makes sense for a Demographic section), which in other words is quite similar to saying the church attendances of the US or the UK which is suitable. [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 13:02, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

* If you want to summarize the religion section, why did you add KONDA's poll results to Turkey?!? You removed nearly all of the secularism paragraph, (christianity and judaism also) but added unneccessary information. Is this means summarizing!?!? --<span style="border: 2px black solid; background-color: black;">[[User:Turkish Flame|<font face="Comic Sans MS" color="lime">'''Turkish Flame'''</font>]] [[User talk:Turkish Flame|<font face="Comic Sans MS" color="lime"><sup><u>☎</u></sup></font>]]</span> 14:14, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
: Yes that poll is also summarized (has it's own section on [[Religion in Turkey|Religion]], excluding the other questions asked such as, reading the qur'an, going to mosque, ritual prayers, and the wearing of the headscarf or the turban of which I have not included. All information is summarized, *the major religions*, *polls or studies* (relevant for Demographics) and *secularism*. [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 16:06, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Mohsin makes the point that prayer and fasting and so forth statistics are like church-going statistics in the US and UK, and I think that is a valid point. We should include them. This is following the patter of other country's articles. --[[User_talk:Enzuru|<span style = 'font-variant: small-caps; color: white; background: #FF99CC;'>Enzuru</span>]] 17:04, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

==Improvements needed==
* The first part of the demographics section is alright, because it states statistics related to those information, however the following paragraphs do not contain any sort of statistical informations, like for example the ethnic groups present in Turkey, and unsuitable information present in that section like for example: ''Due to a demand for an increased labor... blah blah''. The structure is the main problem, they should be paragraphed very carefully into different topics, like for example first *population statistics*, *ethnic group statistics*, *education statistics*, *language statistics* and *religion statistics*, these all need to be fixed I think because it is a Featured Article. And the Culture and sports section is just all 'too much', I mean let's look at the second paragraph, full of so many names of actors, awards and sooo many names of films and such (nearly looks like the whole film industry), all of this information should have been developed in other related articles, it should basically be summarized. Commenting for the purpose of the Turkish article, because readers will not find the information very reliable because it is cluttered (including many images in Tourism and others). Please use other articles FA articles such as [[India]] and [[Pakistan]] (sections look good) as a guide. [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 19:11, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
:: Here is a source for the 2008 estimates of ethnic groups in Turkey by the [[National Security Council (Turkey)]].<ref>{{cite news
|title = Türkiyedeki Kürtlerin Sayısı! (Number of Kurds in Turkey!)
|publisher = [[Milliyet]]
|date = 2008-06-06
|accessdate = 2008-06-07
|language = Turkish
|url = http://www.milliyet.com.tr/default.aspx?aType=SonDakika&Kategori=yasam&ArticleID=873452&Date=07.06.2008&ver=16
}}</ref>
{{reflist|2}}

:Thanks for turning [[Turkey]] into India, Pakistan and Bangladesh, we appreciate it :) [[User:Malkoçoğlu|Malkoçoğlu]] ([[User talk:Malkoçoğlu|talk]]) 03:58, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
::He used them because they are Featured Articles, this is the correct way to go about doing the religion section in this article. Assuming good faith, that is part of Wikipedia. --[[User_talk:Enzuru|<span style = 'font-variant: small-caps; color: white; background: #FF99CC;'>Enzuru</span>]] 04:01, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
:::I was referring to the good relations between India, Pakistan and Bangladesh :) By the way, I suggest we take [[Germany]] as a FA example and not India/Bangladesh/Pakistan, since Germany is Turkey's role model in many areas (Atatürk was influenced by the Weimar Republic) and Turkey is sort of the regional Germany. [[User:Malkoçoğlu|Malkoçoğlu]] ([[User talk:Malkoçoğlu|talk]]) 04:20, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
::::I am talking about how the article is '''structured''' and '''developed''', regardless of the religion section or the information, the whole article needs improvement to how the information is '''presented'''. (and u r takin advantage of Wikipedia, using 2 usernames!) 08:51, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::Using Germany as an example may not be a bad idea, since those countries are more similiar ideology-wise than Turkey is with any of the South Asian nations. --[[User_talk:Enzuru|<span style = 'font-variant: small-caps; color: white; background: #FF99CC;'>Enzuru</span>]] 17:44, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::OK, well just to say that [[User:Shuppiluliuma|Shup]] has just gone off the main concept of this subject. Leaving aside whatever articles (strictly lookin at any FA articles based on how it is structured), many parts of these sections have to be improved, or you will probably look to a reassessment of the article. Some parts of these informations need to be moved to other related articles. The main article is to give a some parts of the information but not all of it, the other parts can be developed into other articles (like for example the Army info, into [[Turkish Armed Forces]] or cultural info into, [[Culture of Turkey]].) [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 18:13, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

[[Image:Whriling dervishes, Rumi Fest 2007.jpg|thumb|150px|right|[[Whirling dervishes]]]]
[[Image:Hagia Sophia 09.JPG|thumb|150px|left|[[Hagia Sophia]]]]
* Use images could be improved, like for example in the tourism section maybe 3-4 images enough, and relevant images, what does attract people to Turkey? The history. Century-old mosques or religious sites, historical buildings, the whirling divershes etc. ([[Hagia Sophia]] or a pic of whirling dervishes could be good), the image of the Ankara building looks odd, and so is the House of Virgin Mary.
[[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 15:57, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

* Yes 4 images are enough in tourism section, we have to remove 2 images (ankara armada tower image and izmir cafes image are excess). But Whirling dervishes image is not suitable for tourism section. Because 22.2 million people don't come Turkey for seeing dervishes. Also, Hagia Sophia image can be used in demographics section instead of Selimiye Mosque image. --<span style="border: 2px black solid; background-color: black;">[[User:Turkish Flame|<font face="Comic Sans MS" color="lime">'''Turkish Flame'''</font>]] [[User talk:Turkish Flame|<font face="Comic Sans MS" color="lime"><sup><u>☎</u></sup></font>]]</span> 16:18, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
: Ok, but just to say when there are advertisements of attracting tourism in Turkey, they mainly do show the whirling dervishes and historical buildings and mosques. The dervishes is part of that tourism attraction isn't it? I mean you got the buildings mainly, but also the cultural aspects should be shown, and that is the dervishes I suggest. The Hagia Sophia is now a museum (not a church or a mosque anymore), and is one of the most visited places in the country, which could relate to tourism. [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 16:28, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

* But advertisements are made by '''Culture and Tourism Ministry of Turkey''' and the dervishes is part of culture, not tourism. --<span style="border: 2px black solid; background-color: black;">[[User:Turkish Flame|<font face="Comic Sans MS" color="lime">'''Turkish Flame'''</font>]] [[User talk:Turkish Flame|<font face="Comic Sans MS" color="lime"><sup><u>☎</u></sup></font>]]</span> 16:48, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
: Yes there was another image of dervishes in the culture section before, that image could go in that section then, and there aren't many cultural images present in that section (mainly of famous people). [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 18:35, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

* Dervishes are part of Mevlevi, (since 1500s) and it is part of Ottoman culture, not modern Turkey. --<span style="border: 2px black solid; background-color: black;">[[User:Turkish Flame|<font face="Comic Sans MS" color="lime">'''Turkish Flame'''</font>]] [[User talk:Turkish Flame|<font face="Comic Sans MS" color="lime"><sup><u>☎</u></sup></font>]]</span> 18:48, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

::Touristic interests transcend, and my be guided by -or ignore- matters of philosophy and ideology. Wanting any particular aspect to be viewed rigidly in only one context (Culture vs Tourism) may serve some version of truth- but is not the purpose of the article. Dervishes perform a spectacle that regularly factors into the agenda of tourists- independent of judgments of right or wrong... or 'should's. Just as the beaches and architecture are targets of tourist consumption- so are Dervish performances.[[User:Mavigogun|Mavigogun]] ([[User talk:Mavigogun|talk]]) 05:49, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Taking Germany as an example is a better idea than taking India etc. but it still doesn't fit perfectly. I just wanted to note it. I assume we all know that one of the main problems of Turkey is its conflict between the East and the West. For example, [[Samuel P. Huntington|Huntington]] would say that Turkey should give up imitating the Western civilization and become the leader of, you say, Middle Eastern/Islamic civilization because it has the means and tradition to do so. Of course, it is just sidekick information to our main discussions. Whatever, people just say something then they don't materialize it. Let's assume that we accepted to reshape some parts in accordance with the Germany article, which parts will be reshaped? [[User:Deliogul|Deliogul]] ([[User talk:Deliogul|talk]]) 21:53, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

===Image Heavy===

There are a number of extraneous and redundant illustrations- such as pictures of the Council of Europe chamber, Turkish/EU Flag, multiple Istanbul financial districts, multiple pedestrian commerce centers. Selective editing is warranted.[[User:Mavigogun|Mavigogun]] ([[User talk:Mavigogun|talk]]) 06:02, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

:Just can't wait to see how the article will be gangbanged starting from October 26, an authentic Dallywood production is what I expect, with dancing Dervishes etc... :) [[Special:Contributions/88.255.157.230|88.255.157.230]] ([[User talk:88.255.157.230|talk]]) 09:38, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
:: A Dallywood production ??? Now I speak for everyone else and say, why would the dervishes relate to a South Asian Film Industry? A Sufi belief or tradition in Turkey! They are part of the Turkey, please do not add any un-constructive comments to the talk page please, you should respect different cultures and traditions present around the world or in your region. Thank you! [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 10:53, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
:Mavigogun makes a good point. One of the reasons the article is locked down is for you guys to cool your jets a bit. Lengthy blocks will be handed out to both of you if this just opens up into a big edit war again. Might I suggest reverting to the version the article was in when it achieved FA status, and then updating it with current events (Deep State issues, political stability, Iraq policy, Operation Orchard, Georgia/Caucasus, economic stability, etc). I believe [http://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Turkey&oldid=99630643 this version] is right around where the article was when it was promoted. [[User:Hiberniantears|Hiberniantears]] ([[User talk:Hiberniantears|talk]]) 15:12, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
::OK i'll agree to that version, looks more clean and FA lookin. May I also suggest that the demographic-religion info should be replaced on top of that with the agreed version at the top, and that the large info of secularism be moved to the politics section. Bye. [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 16:29, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
:::I somehow thought you might say that. I think the only thing that should be done with the FA version is to update it with things that have happened since. I got all the admins together and we took a bet that you two turkeys couldn't even agree on what has happened in Turkey since 2007. Considering that religious people have been in Turkey since its inception, and since this article managed to make FA status back in 2007 without the currently proposed tinkering, a wise man would deduce that it is not the most urgent thing this article need. Do not get into a pointless edit war over the presentation of religion, or for that matter the best tourism pictures. Wikipedia is not where the fate and identity of nations is decided (although this is currently expected as a new feature in late 2009). The religion version at top doesn't appear to be agreed. Steer away from it right now, since the only thing down that road is a block. [[User:Hiberniantears|Hiberniantears]] ([[User talk:Hiberniantears|talk]]) 18:28, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
::::Do you mean the controversies of the government since 2007? Well I did however add information of Abdullah Gul's presidency as being controversial due to being the first president with an Islamist background (and wife wearing hijab) and the headscarf ban triggering social concerns, but however was removed latter, and the other not agreed upon. (I have added the full secularism info to the politics section at the end at the proposed, and also in the demographic.) [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 19:49, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

:::::My other concern is how does Wikipedia deal with users who completely disagree with factual events (based on neutral info and on facts and sources eg. controversies at top) Even though you try to have a discussion or persuade them and still won't agree and keep on reverting?[[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 19:59, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
* That version is too short and imageless. --[[Special:Contributions/81.214.118.76|81.214.118.76]] ([[User talk:81.214.118.76|talk]]) 17:02, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
::Yo mama didn't think so. [[User:Hiberniantears|Hiberniantears]] ([[User talk:Hiberniantears|talk]]) 18:28, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Well from the earlier version you mentioned, from that I have re-edited the section by adding images to it, and updating some parts of the article. See [[User:Tangomaan/sandbox/Turkey test]], and does it look OK or not (just trying to help out). The current version is over 110mb, the edited one is 90mb which is better. (by the way nicely said :)). [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 19:04, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
::::That actually looks pretty good... Nicely done. [[User:Hiberniantears|Hiberniantears]] ([[User talk:Hiberniantears|talk]]) 19:20, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::I made the switch. If established editors (i.e. not Shup socks) want me to revert for the time being, I'll be happy to do so. Also, any admin reading this should feel free to revert me on your own in the meantime. I just wanted to get this version in the history. [[User:Hiberniantears|Hiberniantears]] ([[User talk:Hiberniantears|talk]]) 20:12, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

* The article looks better now, not too many images or less but in the middle, and the same for information, no such further development of any sections is needed or in some could be updated (gov & pol). The Sports section is just perfect and enough and so is Culture, but the [[Sports in Turkey]] is lacking heaps of information, this could be developed further over there. The demographics is alright and summed up very well, no such development required for the religions or secularism (available in Gov.), but I think the previous image that was there was even better, because it views it from a further angle across the world and showing exactly where it is in the world. [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 09:42, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

* Turkey isn't as large as Russia. The current image is selected with a consensus. --<span style="border: 2px black solid; background-color: black;">[[User:Turkish Flame|<font face="Comic Sans MS" color="lime">'''Turkish Flame'''</font>]] [[User talk:Turkish Flame|<font face="Comic Sans MS" color="lime"><sup><u>☎</u></sup></font>]]</span> 09:46, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
: Consensus huh? OK then. I just find it a bit too large, and maybe the grey background could be given with a bit of that yellow as a suggestion (too red). [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 09:50, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

== Trending up ==

Too bad you guys can't do to the financial markets what you manage to do to the size of this article. Just thought the following statistics are interesting, showing the version that was in place prior to my revert, my revert to the 2007-based version, Turkish Flame's first changes after the block (hi buddy), and Tangomaan's latest.

*10:24, October 19, 2008 Jd2718 (Talk | contribs | block) ('''113,356 bytes''')

*16:08, October 23, 2008 Hiberniantears (Talk | contribs | block) ('''92,482 bytes''')

*04:07, October 25, 2008 Turkish Flame (Talk | contribs | block) m ('''95,488 bytes''')

*11:33, October 25, 2008 Tangomaan (Talk | contribs | block) m ('''97,055 bytes''')

With the Shup stuff, this is expected. At the same time, Tangomaan, I went back to the 2007 FA version largely to help get the article size under control. Just some food for thought. [[User:Hiberniantears|Hiberniantears]] ([[User talk:Hiberniantears|talk]]) 16:37, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
: Yo you sure thats correct? man I only reduce things rather than adding things, like for example removing excessive images and too many information. Didn't realise that, thanks for that. [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 19:06, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
:: Oh that edit was high, because I had to update the demographic section with the correct 2007 data and other informations were missing like for example population density or life expectancy etc., I'll try to keep it 'on the low' the next time :) [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 20:01, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
::: Here's the highest though: 13:04, 19 October 2008 Malkoçoğlu (Talk | contribs) m ('''120,913 bytes''') - let's hope it doesn't reach there again. [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 21:51, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

* I have inserted a new template of city populations to the demographic section to show summarize the city pop. Seeing other FA articles which have these, I thought why not add it as well to make the article better. I have also re-arranged the section to make into three paragraphs and for easy reading, and so images can fit. If any mistakes or changes needed please go ahead, thanks. [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 14:00, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

== Military and homosexuality edit warring ==

* There is currently a dispute between how the Turkish military deals with homosexuals in the military service between some users. Please add further comments or suggestions to come to a consensus or agreement between two informations regarding that section of the topic, to avoid further edit warring in the future. Thanks. [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 15:01, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

"Around 1 in 10 people are born gay so obviously there are 10000s of closeted gays in the army; however, the fact is that the army doesn't allow OPENLY gay people to serve - and that constitutes discrimination prohibited by the European Convention on Human Rights. The landmark ECHR case - '''Smith and Grady v UK''' [1999], which can be accessed via Westlaw, explicitly states that barring homosexuals from openly serving in the military is a violation of the Convention. Also, Turkey's refusal to recognise consciouness objections constitues a breach of Article 18 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Now, if certain people are embarrassed by the human rights violations carried by Turkish authorities, then I suggest you vote and get into politics or join some NGO or something, but do not pervert the truth. I will seek some sort of consensus on this issue, but if it is not forthcoming, I will continue to edit the article until those who wish to dilute the truth give up." ([[User:BigBrother88|BigBrother88]] ([[User talk:BigBrother88|talk]]) 15:39, 8 November 2008 (UTC))

* Paragraph added by BigBrother88:

'''"The Turkish military - in violation of its obligations under the [[European Convention on Human Rights]] - openly discriminates against [[Sexual orientation and military service|homosexuals]] and bisexuals by barring them from serving in the military. At the same time, Turkey withholds any recognition of [[conscientious objection]] to military service. Some objectors must instead identify themselves as “sick” - and are forced to undergo what [[Human Rights Watch]] calls "humiliating and degrading" examinations to “prove” their homosexuality."'''

This paragraph gives the wrong impression that Turkey is "violating" a "legal commitment" that it made with the ECHR; whereas [[Turkey]] and [[Azerbaijan]] are the two [[Council of Europe]] member states which '''did not''' sign the clause on "conscientious objection to military service" of the ECHR treaty, therefore are not "violating" any legal commitment on this issue.

As someone who did his compulsory military service in the Turkish Army, I would like to give a few details on who aren't allowed to do military service:

'''Transexuals:''' Even if a transexual wants to serve in the Turkish Army, he (she) is not allowed. For the record, transexuals have the right to become legally "female" in Turkey (like the famous transexual singer [[Bülent Ersoy]]) if they substitute their penis with an artificial vagina.

'''People who have attempted to commit suicide:''' People who have attempted to commit suicide in their past are not allowed to serve in the Army, even if they prove that they are psychologically healed.

At the Army Recruitment Center, during the pre-service medical examination, the doctors look at your arms and wrists to see if there are any signs of self-made cuts (for suicide).

'''People who have a tendency to harm themselves:''' People who have a tendency to harm themselves are not allowed to do military service. Back in the 1980s and 1990s, people who listened to "extreme arabesque music" (such as [[Müslüm Gürses]]) used to cut their arms as a show of pain during concerts. Such people who have "Müslüm Baba cuts" on their arms are not allowed to serve in the Army.

'''Former or actual drug addicts:''' People who have used drugs in the past (or present) are not allowed to serve in the Army. The doctors also look at your arms to see if there are any signs of injected drug use.

'''People whose bodies are largely covered with tattoos and/or piercings:''' People who have a large part of their bodies covered with tattoos and/or piercings are not allowed to serve in the Army. This is because tattoos and piercings make it easier for the enemy to identify a soldier, and because tattoos and piercings tend to cause infections and other health problems on the skin at "dirty environments" such as the battlefield, and some of these skin diseases are potentially contagious.

'''The special case concerning gays and bisexuals:''' It's not the Army's duty to identify who is gay and who is not (who knows how many "closet gays" serve in the Army during compulsory military service.) A gay must identify himself, if he wants to avoid compulsory military service (it's obligatory for every male Turkish citizen to do military service.) As long as a gay or bisexual decides to make no official declarations about his sexuality (doesn't come out of the closet, i.e. doesn't submit a written statement declaring that he is gay, in order not to do military service), he serves. At the Army Recruitment Center, before military service, there is a short health check-up. In groups of 10 men (wearing only underwear) you enter a room with numerous doctors, who tell you to turn around (360 degrees). They especially check your arms and wrists to see if there are any traces of suicide cuts, drug abuse, self-made wounds, tattoos and piercings, skin diseases, signs of other diseases, etc. Then they ask you if you have any health problems to declare. Then they listen to your lungs as you breathe, they tell you to open your mouth, etc... As long as you don't declare "I am gay and I don't want to do military service", no doctor looks at your anus. Therefore, if a gay/bisexual doesn't declare his sexuality, he can do military service without any problems. There was actually a gay soldier from Konya in our barracks. We never asked him if he was gay, nor did he ever admit it to us, but from the way he looked, he talked, he joked, etc, everyone knew he was gay. Yet, he completed his military service without any problems. I'm sure there are many other gays/bisexuals like him who are spiritually "man enough" to do their military service without complaining. Those who complain, and want to avoid service, say "I am gay and I don't want to serve", and get the anal examination treatment. Those who don't complain serve without any problems, like everyone else. [[User:Shiham K|Shiham K]] ([[User talk:Shiham K|talk]]) 21:57, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

:In short: Transexuals, suicidal people, people who tend to harm themselves, former or actual drug addicts, and people with bodies covered largely by tattoos and/or piercings are deemed "not suitable for military service" by the doctors at the Army Recruitment Center prior to being accepted (even if they want to serve, they can't.) The case for gays/bisexuals is different, because as long as they don't "come out of the closet", they serve. Doctors look at your anus only if you declare "I am gay and I don't want to do military service." [[User:Shiham K|Shiham K]] ([[User talk:Shiham K|talk]]) 22:04, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Revision as of 22:31, 8 November 2008

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