Talk:September 11 attacks

Edit Request

{{edit semi-protected}} Can somebody please change the opening sentence to: The September 11 attacks (often referred to as September 11th or 9/11) were a series of controversial coordinated suicide attacks by al-Qaeda upon the United States on September 11, 2001.

Sources: [2], [3], [4], [5]

The attacks are very controversial, and many citizens and politicians alike are still divided over this issue. I would like to see this expanded on in a new or pre-existing section since this is on topic and sourced. Thank you for your co-operation. 76.68.52.131 (talk) 18:41, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

No.--MONGO 19:34, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

The above IP...76.68.52.131 comes from the same location as blocked IP 174.89.58.95...check it out for yourselves...here...and...here--MONGO 19:44, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

As I said above, it may just be time to block unregistered users from editing the talk page. It's pretty clear that the IP in question isn't going to be giving up and isn't getting the message that we won't be preforming the modifications he keeps requesting. --Tarage (talk) 11:41, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Well... looks like our IP friend has stated[6] that he has no intention of stopping, so I requested an indefinite semi-protect. --Tarage (talk) 01:28, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Checkuser may turn up a link to a regular user...they may consider that fishing though since I haven't a clue who it could be. They generally only semi-protect talkpages for a brief time.--MONGO 11:00, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

I believe the solution is to grant IP his request for a fair treatment of opposing views. IP is quite right when he states that the article is biased and that it needs to adopt a more neutral stance. His action is clearly vandalism but in the circumstances, it is a kind of vandalism that can be justified, as all other avenues to bring about a NPOV have been tried. Wikipedia is supposed to be an encyclopedia, not a soapbox to promote either the majority or the minority view. As it is now, this article promotes exclusively the official propaganda of the U.S. government. Oclupak (talk) 12:28, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

This is now at arbitration enforcement, as Oclupak has previously been cautioned concerning the 9/11 editing restrictions. Acroterion _(talk) 14:02, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

For my 2 cents as another unregistered user, I feel the use of the word "controversial" in the suggested change is redundant. Given the nature of the event, it is inherently controversial and this doesn't need to be stated. I do feel, however, that the lead should make some statement about 9/11 having a lasting influence on world culture. It's been 9 years now and I think this is now a fair statement to include (and doing so would lead into the "Aftermath" section of the article). Again just my 2 cents. 68.146.64.9 (talk) 17:04, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

If you have a good reliable source for something like that, please suggest it. It sounds a reasonable statement in itself (although that's just my immediate reaction) but what we happen to think as individuals doesn't matter; we need a notable analysis to say it.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 17:40, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

New Section Request

Unhelpful conspiracy pushing
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I would like to respectfully request a small section for 9/11 Truth Movement, either under section 3 or 5, or as a See Also. The [9/11 Truth Movement] article is well sourced enough to be included in the main article, just as 9/11 Conspiracy Theories has it's place in the September 11 Attacks article. The section should include information about the anti-war movement, since 9/11 was the linchpin event for declaring a war of aggression in the middle east. The authors of this article are really hiding a lot of information. There's no point in bringing new information here since anyone who declares the official conspiracy theory a lie is automatically not a reliable source, including government and military personnel. There are a lot more people than you guys think who take this very seriously. [7][8][9] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Freedom5000 (talk • contribs) 17:19, 13 November 2010 (UTC) I think you already know that's not going to happen. Please drop the stick and back away from the horse. OhNoitsJamie Talk 17:21, 13 November 2010 (UTC) Maybe if the article was less biased the discussion page would get less spam. Freedom5000 (talk) 17:35, 13 November 2010 (UTC) Or maybe we'll just keep denying similar requests. OhNoitsJamie Talk 17:45, 13 November 2010 (UTC) That's fine, it's not like I pay for Wikipedia or anything - not that anyone would after reading [September 11 Attacks]. Freedom5000 (talk) 17:55, 13 November 2010 (UTC) Comments from Iran I would like to respectfully request for the following to be included in the article: President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad proposed that his government would investigate the September 11 Attacks. Ahmadinejad does not mean Tehran is insensitive to the pain of the families of the victims but rather showed a commitment to finding the truth behind an incident that triggered a war in a neighboring country. US President Barak Obama criticized the Iranian president's remarks as "hateful." [10] Freedom5000 (talk) 17:43, 13 November 2010 (UTC) Ahmadinejad also believes that the United States is the greatest evil in the world and that the Holocaust never happened. I'd personally like my information to come from a slightly more reasonable source thanks. Soxwon (talk) 18:50, 13 November 2010 (UTC) Conspiracy Theories section is not sourced The Conspiracy theories section is very poorly written from an encyclopedia point of view. For example: "Conspiracy theorists question the official version of the attacks..." Who is questioning the attacks? This statement is not sourced and seems more like POV or opinion pushing, implying the movement is anonymous. "Some proponents of 9/11 conspiracy theories have speculated that individuals inside the United States possessed detailed information about the attacks..." Again, who is claiming this? This is yet another unsourced statement. This section deserves to be rewritten with appropriate sourcing. Instead of using weasle-words how about giving that section some substance? Freedom5000 (talk) 17:53, 13 November 2010 (UTC) This article isn't about the Conspiracy theories, it is about what actually happened. If you wish to get into more detailed information about what the conspiracy theorists claim, go to the appropriate pages please. Soxwon (talk) 18:53, 13 November 2010 (UTC) This article is biased toward the American version The official American details of this event differ dramatically from accounts of eye-witnesses and foreign media. It's quite offensive to say that media is not reliable because it's either non-English or non-American, or not pro-American. There would not be such a controversy if official conspiracy theory reflected what actually happened. Instead, we have a mainstream media which itself contributes to the lies and deception to promote support for a war of aggression, and we have Wikipedia accounts which support the deception by acting uncivilly toward anyone who rejects the American war on terror. There are even users who like to lie just for the hell of it here. Freedom5000 (talk) 18:14, 13 November 2010 (UTC) I'm archiving this, you've proven yourself to be just another fringe pov-pusher. Soxwon (talk) 18:56, 13 November 2010 (UTC) The article is still incomplete The article still does not incorporate any description of the anti-war or 9/11 truth movement. 9/11 was used by G. W. Bush to declare a very unpopular war of terror. The article should cover more opposing views and war protests, just like this article here: Opposition to Vietnam War. Without the opposition, this article becomes so biased it might as well just be deleted. Freedom5000 (talk) 19:59, 15 November 2010 (UTC) Classic WP:SPA. 92.76.137.170 (talk) 20:43, 15 November 2010 (UTC) Agree that the requesting account is a SPA.Jojhutton (talk) 20:53, 15 November 2010 (UTC) No. Go away. --Tarage (talk) 01:03, 16 November 2010 (UTC) What happened to the good faith and civility? It looks more like WP:GAME to me. Catalyzingevent (talk) 03:15, 16 November 2010 (UTC) Why look, another WP:SPA. I totally care about what you have to say. Please continue, or not. --Tarage (talk) 09:31, 16 November 2010 (UTC) ...as a reminder once again.--MONGO 03:31, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Conspiracy theories in introduction

Hi, can someone explain why there is no mention of conspiracy theories in the introduction ? (just asking) any link to a rule or a past discussion would be great, thank you.--Spota (talk) 14:05, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

At the top of this page there are links to 54 separate archived discussions from this page. Use the search box to make it easy (since they're long). Consensus established over the last several years is to not mention the conspiracy theories in the introduction. Antandrus (talk) 14:42, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Smells like a WP:SPA. Checkuser please. --Tarage (talk) 19:33, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

CU is not for fishing and they just asked a question please AGF. Mo ainm~Talk 19:39, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

That was also their first and only edit. Someone deciding that their very first edit should be diving into the September 11 talk page and asking why nobody mentions conspiracies is, at best, unusual. "Brand new" accounts commenting here are, unfortunately, rather common: note the extensive number of blocked "new accounts" and IPs from the previous topics. HalfShadow 20:03, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Survey, in the interest of improving the article

Consensus seems clear, no need to continue discussion
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
As it presently stands, the article may appear to some readers to be weak on verifiable evidence which supports the official/mainstream story. If this is the case, it may be worthwhile to consider what could be done to strengthen the article; to make it more complete, verifiably accurate and convincing as viewed by its readers. So here are the questions in this three-part survey: (1) What, if anything, convinced you more than anything else that the official story of 9/11 is complete and correct as presented? (2) Is this convincing material currently in the article, and if not, is it available from reliable sources such that it could be added to the article? (3) If it is already in the article, but appears weak and difficult to verify, could it be strengthened to make it more clear and convincing? In responding, please try to be as specific as possible. Generalities may be difficult to interpret and act upon. I will break this survey into two sections: responses and discussion. Keeping the responses and the discussion separate should help make it possible to obtain a quick overview of the responses. Please keep the discussion civil and keep the focus on how the article might be improved. This survey is intended to be a search for solutions; not an opinion poll. I will start by offering the first response. My response is only intended to serve as a model in format, not in content. Wildbear (talk) 01:16, 26 November 2010 (UTC) Survey responses Response by Wildbear: (1) Nothing. (2) Not applicable. (3) Not applicable. Survey discussion It is not our place to state whether or not the mainstream account of what happened is true. We go by what reliable sources. Therefore, this poll is invalid. Soxwon (talk) 01:35, 26 November 2010 (UTC) There is much that reliable sources say which does not appear in this article. The article may appear unbalanced to many because, while there is a broad array of reliably sourced material available, the material selected may be among the less verifiable and convincing. The purpose of this survey is to gauge whether or not that is the case, in the view of those participating in the survey. If there is better material available from reliable sources which could be used, which would lend a greater sense of validity and accuracy to the article, it is reasonable to discuss the possibility of using it. Wildbear (talk) 01:54, 26 November 2010 (UTC) So, in other words, you are arguing that we should try to make the mainstream account more convincing? Soxwon (talk) 01:56, 26 November 2010 (UTC) I worded it that way; and given your feedback, I realize that I should not have. My desire and intent is to make what is presented in the article more convincing. Since what is presented in the article is pretty much entirely the mainstream account, I worded it that way. I should have chosen different wording; but the intent is effectively the same. Given the importance of the topic, readers should not find themselves shaking their heads in disbelief when reading the article; and I'm sure that many are doing just that. If the article can be improved in this regard (using reliable sourcing), I think it should be. It doesn't matter to me what the article contains, as long as it comes across as credible, verifiable, believable, and neutral in point of view. Wildbear (talk) 03:10, 26 November 2010 (UTC) In other words, you believe we should bend to the vocal minority of Truthers who believe that the article isn't balanced. I figured as much, but was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt. No, we should not give credence to WP:FRINGE theories and ideas. If you believe that editors are shaking their heads in disbelief that's fine. I, however, have not seen this same phenomena, save for a very persistent sock and multiple drive-by truthers. Please don't use your erroneous beliefs to try and push conspiracy theories and change what consensus has dictated. Soxwon (talk) 03:27, 26 November 2010 (UTC) @Wildbear then fix it, if there are things WP:RS are saying then We might as well repeat them as long as things are Given due weight. Right now it looks pretty neutral to me and well sourced so I am skeptical much could be added. Worse case scenerio is WP:BRDThe Resident Anthropologist (talk) 03:51, 26 November 2010 (UTC) Hello ResidentAnthropologist, and thank you for your reasonable feedback. Here is the issue: it is routinely claimed that little or no doubt exists that the material covered by this article is generally correct as presented. Perhaps this is true, and if it is true, great, no problem; it would mean that Wikipedia editors have done their job. The existing contentiousness, both within this talk page and in the outside world, suggests that there may be room for improvement. I can't fix it since I haven't found the sources to do so, despite spending hours every day poring through numerous mainstream and alternative sources for information on the topic. The article appears deficient with no easy means to fix it. Perhaps others have seen something that I haven't. If they have, it might account for the strength of their conviction that the article is basically complete and correct. I would really like to see what they have seen, since I would like to have the same feeling of confidence that the article is well-written as it stands. If they do have the sourcing that I may have missed (and I'm pretty confident that I have missed some critical sourcing) I'm asking them to please put it forward. Doing so could potentially help many readers feel more confident that Wikipedia has written this article to suitably high standards. Wildbear (talk) 04:28, 26 November 2010 (UTC) The usuals here see no problem; and I agree with them. But even if every statement here was cited by twenty citations from reliable sources... a number of therorists of would consider it still us to be part of the coverup. There is no pleasing them. The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 05:11, 26 November 2010 (UTC) I find the article to be neutral, well-presented, well-balanced, and reliably sourced -- pretty impressive actually considering the amount of noisy archives the talk page has. The recent disruptions on the article and talk page -- in my opinion, and based on almost six years experience as an admin -- are coming from a small number of persistent people that we would be best to ignore. Antandrus (talk) 04:03, 26 November 2010 (UTC) I endorse this comment entirely. — Gavia immer (talk) 04:33, 26 November 2010 (UTC) Agreed. Soxwon (talk) 04:49, 26 November 2010 (UTC) indeed a very small number The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 05:22, 26 November 2010 (UTC) I'm generally against the idea of "surveys", as per WP:PNSD, and while in this case discussion does seem to have taken place, all we are doing is repeating discussion that has occured literally dozens of times already, and that is stated clearly in the FAQ at the top of this page. This article is not going to cover the conspiricy theories, and conspiricy theorists are never going to like that. Too bad. Rapier (talk) 05:56, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

9/11 Inside Job Status

Belligerents should be switched from Bin Laden to "Most Defiantly an Inside Job" due to the discoveries I made with my own original research. Liquid Snake34 (talk) 06:22, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

== 9/11 WAS AN INSIDE JOB !! ==

9/11 WAS AN INSIDE JOB !!