Talk:September 11 attacks

Article Neutrality in Question

Stating as fact that 19 Al-Qaida terrorists attacked on 9/11 is against the ideals of neutrality of Wikipedia.

Many influential people around the globe assert that the US government and the CIA, not Arab terrorists, demolished the 3 towers; people such as Fujita Yukihisa, member of the Japanese Diet (Parliament).

Therefore, all statements on this page should be phrased "It is asserted that..." "The official belief is that..."

Until this article is worded correctly, Wikipedia will be known as a CIA propaganda tool. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.118.1.51 (talk) 04:35, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

That would violate WP:UNDUE and WP:WEASEL. Hut 8.5 06:36, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Anything different than the "official" story is called a conspiracy theory. I wonder how many times "reliable source" was mentioned on this page. Reliable to whom? Nothing to get mad over though, If "it" were me , you could bet your ass I wouldn't let anything but my truth appear on a site owned and ran by civilians I ruled over. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.122.53.3 (talk) 18:59, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

"I wonder how many times "reliable source" was mentioned on this page." Apparently, not enough. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 20:19, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

The time has come to give up the separate versions of "reality." We now have a reliable source (peer reviewed, outside the 9/11 Truth community, professional in its technical discipline) concluding the article with this sentence: “… we conclude that the red layer of the red/gray chips we have discovered in the WTC dust is active, unreacted thermitic material, incorporating nanotechnology, and is a highly energetic pyrotechnic or explosive material.” Does this belong in the conspiracy theory version, or the "what really happened version"? (The source is the Open Chemical Physics Journal, 2009)Lookunderneath (talk) 00:45, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Lookunderneath, thie article you cite is not from outside the 9/11 truth community. It was co-authored by Niels Harrit of scholars for truth and Gregg Roberts from Architects and engingeers for 9/11 truth among others. It also concludes by thanking David Ray Griffin who is not a scientist, but simply a leader of the 9/11 Truth community. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.99.193.149 (talk) 23:10, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Firstly. There is no criteria that demands that anyone has to be "outside the 911 truth community". Thats a logical fallacy and pure intellectual dishonesty as well as just plain old common dishonesty. Just supposing anyone held a critical view, they would be banded together with the 911 truth movement anyway. But the crux of the dishonesty is pretending that a label, any label somehow disqualifies _anyone_ from presenting evidence. Nunamiut (talk) 22:30, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Anyone with the essential analytical expertise, and access to the necessary equipment and untampered WTC dust samples, can corroborate the results presented in this journal document. This is unlike the NIST computer modeling results, where the modeling parameters are kept secret. Hence, this journal document is more verifiable and reliable than the official account, in terms of putting forward evidence for the possible cause of collapse. It's time for Wikipedia to allow verifiable documentation to be put forward, instead of holding the topic hostage to hypotheses which can only be taken on faith. At the very least, it stands as another reason to note that the article's neutrality is in dispute. The Original Wildbear (talk) 01:59, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

It is not wikipedia's place to try to prove that something other than the official report is true. If and when a preponderance of reliable sources question the official story, then you've got something. Until then, it's fringe theory. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 02:31, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Only idiots are stupid enough to think the WTC was blown up by explosives.--MONGO 03:29, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Do you have citations for that claim? And no fair citing this page. :) Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 04:52, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

MONGO, may I suggest taking a pause to review Wikipedia:Etiquette. It's something we all should do from time to time. Especially when editing on contentious topics like this one. The Original Wildbear (talk) 04:44, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

What you see as a "CIA propaganda tool" I see as a factual, reliably sourced article that has survived repeated attempts by morons to compromise its integrity in favor of their preferred conspiracy theory. The reason this article is a good one is because of the hard work of several editors. Go away, you are not wanted here. Ice Cold Beer (talk) 05:08, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

If neutrality is to be maintained then I think "and by the community of civil engineers" should be redacted from the following statement:

"This controlled demolition hypothesis is rejected by the National Institute of Standards and Technology and by the community of civil engineers, who, after their research, both concluded that the impacts of jets at high speeds in combination with subsequent fires caused the collapse of both Twin Towers.

I'm not sure what "community of civil engineers" is being referred to here, but clearly the most visible, organized, and vocal set of professional civil engineers who are expressing an opinion on this subject are members of AE911Truth. The web site is here: http://www.ae911truth.org/ and there are literally hundreds of degreed, certified, and well experienced CEs who are willing to provide their names and their credentials. Thus there is no need to refer to some vague and anonymonus "community of civil engineers" in this matter. It amazes me that nowhere in this supposedly impartial article is this web site listed.

In the name of neutrality the main article should provide a pointer to http://www.ae911truth.org/, even if it resides in the conspiracy theory section. This is not the article trying to make any statements for or against conspiracy thinking, it is simply acknowledging that conspiracy investigators are out there and where they can be found. On that site you will also find a documented admission that the NIST investigation never considered the possibility of an inside job and thus they did not look for evidence of it. Thus I find the mention of the NIST conclusion used as a mechanism to refute the conspiracy investigator's conclusions a bit disingenuous. We all know it is embarassing to have to admit that Bush's henchmen laid the thermite charges which brought down not only the 2 buildings hit by air craft but also a 3rd building which was not hit by aircraft (WTC7). But Wiki is supposed to be neutral and if there are people saying he did it and offering verifiable proof to the fact that nobody has been able to refute to date, just report the facts as they exist, no more, no less. Let the people do their own research after a pointer is provided.

If Wiki cannot be fair and neutral in these sorts of matters I fear for the future of this otherwise very fine and usable public resource. You simply can't fool all the people all the time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.193.67.233 (talk) 11:10, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Oh for fuck’s sake… do you twoofer idiots even read what you type? — NRen2k5^(TALK), 16:41, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

21:58, 19 May 2009 (UTC)~~ My, that was a well thought out response. Who are you and what right have you to respond like that on this forum? Where is a moderator when it comes to this sort of thing? Is that the only way you can respond to requests that Wiki live up to its neutrality commitment? Please try to avoid ad hominem attacks. We are all just trying to make Wiki a better global information resource. Of course if there is some intent to hide aspects of the truth then let's discuss why that seems to be so important to some on this thread. All I am suggesting is that the article is clearly NOT neutral in that it makes statements that are clearly inaccurate as I outlined above. I even suggested some changes that I thought would remedy the situation. I really don't think profanity is appropriate in this forum. Try to elevate yourself, please. 21:58, 19 May 2009 (UTC)~~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.193.67.233 (talk)

This is not a forum, no one cares what you think, go away. --Tarage (talk) 07:35, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

You know, you’re right. You’re new here, so I should give you a chance.

I’ll give you a bit of advice too: Wikipedia is about verifiable facts, not conspiracy theories and innuendo. — NRen2k5^(TALK), 08:00, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

You're being too kind to people who do not come here in good faith. Wikipedia is not about the truth, it is about reliable sources. AE911T is not a reliable source, and never will be. Hence, "This is not a forum, no one cares what you think, go away." --Tarage (talk) 13:31, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Kidding...it was the giaant squid! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.129.15.92 (talk) 04:04, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

"Wikipedia is about verifiable facts" I know that. Its what makes Wiki so valuable. But AE911Truth is full of verifiable facts and just because some profane fool writes "AE911T is not a reliable source, and never will be" does not change the fact. Those guys even used electron scanning microscopes to VERIFY the presence of unburned micrograin thermite. It is a fact that this substance does not occur naturally in big cities. Where is the counter proof that AE911Truth is not credible? They came up with the electron scanning microscope data so I really don't think it neutral to simply dismiss that as "not reliable". What, in fact, WOULD serve as reliable proof? Only things that agree with your way of thinking, it appears. And I may be new here on this discussion forum but I suspect I have been around a good deal more than many people posting here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.193.67.233 (talk) 06:31, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Ummmm.... You know thermite is just rust and metal shavings, right? Where oh where would we find rust and shaved metal on an old metal building that has been blown to hell and back by the impact of a multiple ton aircraft full of jet fuel? Saying you found thermite there, and using it as proof that it was detonated manually, is like saying you found burn marks, and they were proof that it was detonated manually. That's not even to mention how implausible it is to demolish a building using thermite, since thermite is a slow burn, not a fast pop like you'd want to destroy support columns. I want source that this magical thermite exists. The "nanotechnology thermite" that is incredibly effective, burns hot and fast enough to take down a building cleanly, and yet has never been used since on any demolition, much less commonly enough for anyone to even know what the hell it is outside of wtc debates. I want source, and I want the source to NOT come from a wtc truth supporter website, since I'm pretty sure creating a website, then sourcing that website on wikipedia to support your views, is against everything this site stands for. 72.95.110.27 (talk) 15:49, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Nano-thermite is not created accidentally in a building collapse.  Cs32en  15:56, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

{{disputed}}; if fullerenes can be created accidentally in a low-temperature fire, why not nano-thermite (as long as temperature never reaches the flash point). — Arthur Rubin (talk) 19:42, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Questions like this are exactly the reason why a new and credible investigation is needed. Such an investigation must include independent scientists and engineers who can examine the evidence and answer such questions in a believable and scientifically verifiable manner. Wildbear (talk) 20:07, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Fullerene is a configuration that represents a local energy minimum at high temperatures, nano-thermite is not.  Cs32en  23:47, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

This is not a forum for general discussion of 9/11 conspiracy theories, it is a place to discuss how to improve the article. Hut 8.5 20:21, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

I think that treating conspiracy theories as conspiracy theories is an unreasonable statement. I mean, the writers of this wiki nor anyone that I know of nor me have the truth about what happened; but, what's the meaning of verifiable? I have a master in physics and looking at the evidence that the official commission presented I can say that there are affirmations that ARE NOT verifiable; the less verifiable is the strange theory about the building 7. I will say to you one more thing: I live in Argentina; I don't know about anyone, not just one single person, that believes that the government is not implied in the "attacks". I have to say that average argentinian is not a conspiracy fanatic. So, what's the meaning of verifiable? why I an average reader of wikipedia have to read statements presented as truth if that statements are not based on verifiable evidence? at least we have to add "the government/official version" somewhere. josemiotto —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.247.75.146 (talk) 01:33, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Verifiability SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 19:48, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Existence of WMD

In the lead section of the article, on the subject of Weapons of Mass Destruction, I've amended the phrase "later it was discovered that there were none" to "no such weapons have been found". While I'm personally of the view (probably shared by most people by now) that the whole WMD scenario was cooked up to provide an excuse for a military incursion already decided on, the problem Iraq had at the start is the same problem we have now: you can't prove the non-existence of something.

In other words, unless someone knows better and can correct me, we have no conclusive way to prove or discover that there were no WMD, but have no evidence to suppose that there were. - Laterensis (talk) 09:52, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Disagree. Whether or not it can be proven in a theoretically absolute sense, the non-existence of WMD is the verifiable conclusion of authoritative sources. Peter Grey (talk) 17:25, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Nevertheless, since as I said you can't prove the non-existence of something, this still amounts to the adoption of the most likely conclusion by those sources (a conclusion I would agree with, albeit as a private citizen with only news reports to go on). So I still maintain the view that "no such weapons have been found" is more factually accurate than "it was discovered that there were none". - Laterensis (talk) 08:53, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

The lede is supposed to be a summary of the article. Are Iraq's WMDs mentioned in the article? I don't see it. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 17:38, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

The reference to WMD in the lead (which was added yesterday) should be removed, because the article barely mentions the invasion of Iraq, apart from a sentence saying that the attacks contributed to public support for the invasion. --Hut 8.5 16:28, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Proposed Edits

Dear all,

Yesterday I proposed changes to this article in light of research undertaken for the delivery of a university course that I teach. The edits were reversed and it was suggested I posted my reasoning for the changes to the discussion page. I have no affiliation to any 9/11 truth organisation, have been to no meeting in support or against 9/11. I have corresponded with only two people active in posting on the subject (one against conspiracy theories, one in favour of them). My proposed contribution to the article is the result of independent research after reading many reports and articles, and reviewing six documentaries produced in both the US and UK. You can check my credentials at http://www.shu.ac.uk/sbs/research/organisational-development/sp_rory_ridley_duff.html and Marquis's Who's Who in the World 2009.

Below is text (approximate) I added to the talkpage of editors who reversed my changes, or supported the reversal.

"Thank you for your comment on my contribution to the September 11 Attacks article. I'm a senior lecturer at a university in the UK. I include a lecture on 9/11 as part of a philosophy course I give to doctoral students (i.e. those studying for a PhD) to illustrate the contested and constructed nature of knowledge and truth. I am well aware of the key issues raised by 9/11, and the contested nature of 'truth' on this subject.

The current Wikipedia article does not provide balanced coverage of key claims about 9/11. It is the lack of awareness about the contested nature of events on September 11 that makes the current article weak. It falls outside Wikipedia's own guidelines for neutrality and censors views that have been accepted into parts of the academic community, and networks of people who have conducted extensive research into 9/11 issues. One of my concerns is that 'facts' are accepted on the basis of news reports, while other contributions based on peer-reviewed journal articles (albeit not of the highest quality), and good quality documentaries from the BBC and independent documentary makers, are rejected.

One criticism of my contribution is that the views expressed in the article are already 'mainstream', and that the proposed additions would be controversial. I refute both these claims as detailed below. By 2006, at least 1/3 of the US population believed the US government played a conscious role in the 9/11 attacks (see http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/12137). Worldwide, there are countries in which almost one-third of the population believe that either Israel or the US government were as likely, or more likely, than Al Quaida to have perpetrated the attacks (http://in.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idINIndia-35417520080910). For Wikipedia to be 'balanced', it must include these views in any article on the September 11th attacks and acknowledge international views and research into this matter.

The proposed changes, therefore, counter obvious bias in the September 11th Attack article and ensure that the opinions of large numbers or people, including many credible engineers, physicists, academics, politicians and eye-witnesses, are represented. The proposed changes did not remove any existing material to ensure that the views already expressed remain (there was no attempt to censor others points of view, only an attempt to provide the necessary balance to the article overall). The counter perspectives are well-documented and supported by evidence (including two court cases). Other claims are based on active debates amongst academics. These debates are likely to be closer to the 'truth' that bulletins from news channels and should be included in the article.

There is no 'bias' or 'controversy' in reporting that there are ongoing court cases, mass movements and academic debates that question the version of truth presented in the current article. These are matters of fact, not opinion, and it distorts understanding of the subject to omit these facts from the article. It gives the impression that the statements in the article are uncontested. This is clearly untrue so the omission breaches Wikipedia guidelines to write from a neutral point of view (NPOV). I added no judgement as to which version of the truth is more 'true' - the edits simply balanced the debate."

To the above, I would like to add the follow. In the university sector we discuss the use of Wikipedia by students often. The main weakness of Wikipedia (as viewed by universities) is that its editors are insufficiently schooled in both philosophy and research skills. As a consequence, many struggle to differentiate between issues of editing and censorship. The result is many Wikipedia articles are based on popular prejudices (or popular opinion) rather than evidence-based research. For this reason, many lecturers ban the use of Wikipedia. I'm not one of these lecturers - I make relevant contributions on matters that I have researched or regular give lectures at post-graduate level. I encourage students to use Wikipedia, but also to check out the quality of the sources on which the articles are based. I support the Wikipedia project but do worry about the level of censorship when matters move outside 'popular prejudice' and enter the realm of academic debate.

Providing contributions are backed by credible evidence, editors should always seek to include them and provide guidance to ensure the overall article is balanced. An awareness of 'credible' show encompass knowledge created using varied scientific traditions. This means checking out the sources behind contributions before removing them (too often they are removed instantly without checking the credibility of the sources). It also means that editors need to ensure that debates and controversies are managed not excluded.

At present, this article is heavily biased towards one politicised view rooted in a narrow section of US/UK opinion. At present, this brings Wikipedia itself into international disrepute. The claims made in the article are not backed by a standard of evidence that would warrant their inclusion as 'fact'. For this reason, the article should reflect the alleged nature of matters where they have not been conclusively proved one way or the other (or where there is no consensus). Key issues of academic debate and contested issues in the legal domain are not currently addressed.

Overall, it is my view the article must be amended to stay within Wikipedia's own editing guidelines.

I will leave it one day before restoring the contributions suggested to the article and sincerely hope that editors will ensure the changes remain.

Best wishes

User:Roryridleyduff Dr Rory Ridley-Duff, Sheffield Business School 20:35, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

At least one of the "on-going court cases" was dismissed and withdrawn by the plaintiff; apparently the attorney filed the case without getting the plaintiff's consent. I don't think there are any present court cases, but I could easily be wrong.

Your "1/3" above refers to those who think the US government is not telling the whole truth, not those who think the US government was involved in the attack or a cover-up. Read the polls.

Your comment about "research", international or otherwise, appears (I was going to select a milder word, but none adequately coveys the facts) bogus.

It's possible that some of your proposed additions are notable and adequately sourced, but much of your rant above is not accurate. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 20:55, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

You are not checking the source I've given. Other polls put the numbers thinking people are not telling the whole truth at 80%. In the quoted article, those believing the US government was in some way complicit was 36% (the question is clear - read the report). I am, therefore, not 'ranting' as you put it - I'm trying to provide properly sources and balanced reports of this matter.

The court cases, incidentally, are ongoing - I checked with a source directly involved in reporting the cases before posting this information.

Dr Rory Ridley-Duff, Sheffield Business School 21:08, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Dr Rory Ridley-Duff, Sheffield Business School 21:08, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict with above edit) This article is written according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If you don't like these policies and guidelines you can try to get them changed, but you can't do that here, and if you are going to edit you will have to abide by them. The view of September 11 given in this article is supported by the overwhelming majority of reliable sources, and as such (per WP:UNDUE, please read that link, it is actually part of the NPOV policy) it is the perspective given by the article. The number of Americans (or any other nationality) who accept an idea is irrelevant. As such it is contrary to Wikipedia policy to give conspiracy theories anything other than minimal coverage in this article.

In your edit you added the following claims:

• The "Journal of 9/11 studies" is a reliable academic publication. In fact it is a forum for conspiracy theorists to publish their ideas where they are reviewed by other conspiracy theorists. It has no reputation for accuracy or credible review processes, and so it fails Wikipedia:Reliable sources.
• A reference to two court cases. Contrary to what you said above the court cases in question are not "ongoing", they were both dismissed. [2] The lawsuits alleged that no planes struck the Twin Towers, and that the collapses were in fact caused by "directed energy weapons", an idea that is considered fringe even in the 9/11 Truth movement.
• Claims that Flight 93 landed in Cleveland and that the coroner found no bodies. This is simply wrong.[3] --Hut 8.5 21:15, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't think issuing ultimatums is the best way to get your message across. And, just as a note, there is no academic debate about the attacks. The attacks and damage are pretty well understood and almost universally accepted by those who have studied the issue and by those who have the expert knowledge to speak authoritively about it. There is no controversy among mainstream and reliable sources worldwide. There is no evidence based research by experts working in their fields that support any of the theories. There's a lot of unverified and false claims, bad science and outright lies but nothing that would pass muster in a real scientific environment. RxS (talk) 21:51, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

---

Response ----

At the time of the above posting I had read one article rejected by the 9/11 journal and one accepted. The accepted article seemed solid, the other did not. Following your comments, I have read other articles published there. While I appreciate that the standard of peer-review (and academic theorisation) is less than I would expect in academic journals to which I've contributed, it still appears to be better than journalistic sources that are not subject to any peer-review.

I do not know the current state of the legal case by Dr Morgan Reynolds other than that the initial case was dismissed. As for the legal case by Dr Judy Wood, I checked with the person who issues her press releases in the UK (who works in the Open Univeristy) whether the case would go forward. The response was that an appeal is being considered now. The legal ruling (available at www.drjudywood.com) gives Judy Wood permission to resubmit the case after revisions that would ensure it complies with Fraud Act. The ground for dismissing the case (officially, at least) are that the claim is not set out in the way the Fraud Act requires - the cases have not yet even got to the point of considering any evidence. While the court expressed a lack of sympathy regarding resubmission, it made clear that a decision on resubmission would be for the District Court. The case, therefore, remains open for the time being.

"As such it is contrary to Wikipedia policy to give conspiracy theories anything other than minimal coverage in this article."

The official Wikipedia NPOV policy requires that 'significant minority point of view' are included in articles. The edits ensure that these 'significant minority' views are added to the article.

On this point, you are making a basic epistemological error. The 'official story' is itself a conspiracy theory (it is a theory - unverified - that a group of people conspired to hijack planes and fly them into the World Trade Center and Pentagon). Even the most basic evidence is contradictory (such as the alleged hijackers names not being on flight manifest, and the fires burned for over a month at temperatures that could not possible be due to jet fuel). It is not 'neutral' to suppress contradictions that are available through published thermal scans of the area, eye-witnesses, scientific reports (including government reports).

You are making basic epistemological errors by assuming that 'official' (i.e. government) sources are reliable while academic and professional sources are not. In all 'proper' research, it is necessary to remain sceptical of official (managerial) sources: they are not considered reliable much of the time because of the effects of power within organisational cultures and political systems. A reliable source is one that make evidence-based claims after using a reliable methodology for its investigative process. It can also be based on the application of logic or established theory to known 'facts' using a 'correspondence' theory of truth. Much of the controversy derives from a failure of known facts to correspond with known scientific theory. To be balanced, the article must acknowledge the scale of scientific evidence that the official story is contradictory (not 'false' but contradictory - does not accord to known scientific theory and available evidence).

On the issue of evidencing the scale of the 'significant minority' point of view, see http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/view/13469. By 2006, it was reported in the New York Times (following a major poll on many issues that I obtained in full) that 81% of the US public question the official story on some level (either withholding or lying). 28% of people (almost 1/3 of the population) believing the government is proactively lying. Only 16% now believe the government is telling the truth.

The Wikipedia guideline require that the views of these significant minorities are included in the article. By omitting them, you are contravening the Wikipedia guidelines. It remains my view - as a neutral academic who is not involved in the 9/11 Truth movement, that the article must be revised to remain within the NPOV guidelines.

The problems in the current article is ones of epistemology (standards and criteria of truth and knowledge), and breach of the Wikipedia guidelines.

Dr Rory Ridley-Duff, Sheffield Business School 15:38, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Seeing as you studied Business, not Science or Engineering, I’ll take your evaluations of publications' reliability with a grain of salt. — NRen2k5^(TALK), 20:52, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Besides, original research is not permitted. Peter Grey (talk) 23:36, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

My god this one is wordy. I guess the old saying is true, when you have nothing important to say, say as much as you can and hope people don't notice. This is the same frivolous and pointless dribble we're used to. Nothing new, nothing different, therefor nothing will change. Moving along... --Tarage (talk) 00:48, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

It's not a "significant minority view", it's a "tiny minority view", for the reasons noted by RxS above. Academic sources (i.e. proper peer-reviewed journals) are reliable and nobody here has claimed otherwise. The mainstream view is not presented just because it is the view given by the U.S. government. Hut 8.5 09:51, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

--- Rebuttal of false information given above ---

I have a PhD in a business related area (organisation cultures / governance practices). These are easily as relevant to the discussion of 9/11 any knowledge of the physical sciences. Nevertheless, I should point out that I previously qualified as a Microsoft Certified Professional (in the field of software engineering) and won a Department of Industry SMART Award in 2002 (for database design). I have therefore, specialist knowledge in more than one area of science. You should not assume to understand a person on the basis of their current occupation and qualifications as this reveal your propensity to be prejudiced.

On the issue at hand, a 'tiny minority view' is not the finding of the New York Times study. By 2006, the 'official' view in this article to have less fullsome support than the 'unofficial' view you seek to censor (16% believe officials are "telling the truth" v 28% believing officials are "mostly lying"). This is a substantial change from 2002, and this article needs updating to reflect shifts in opinion.

I make the comments on this article mainly on the basis of expertise leading a course on research philosophy. This is a course that teaches PhD researchers how to establish valid criteria for claiming scientific 'truth' in their writing. This article does not provide the kind of quality peer-reviewed sources needed to claim the government's conspiracy theory as 'fact'. Nor is there any reflection on the link between various philosophical/political interests and the different theories that have emerged regarding the September 11 Attacks. This can only be added once there is acknowledgment of other credible theories about the events of September 11. The article remains too narrowly defined and heavily biased toward one political/ideological perspective. I presume this is for political reasons, and not reasons of education or enlightenment on the subject at hand. If you were seeking to enlighten, you would review all credible theories.

For the sake of clarify, I state again - to observe the NPOV policy of Wikipedia the article must include all credible and substantial minority theories and explanations regarding the 9/11 Attacks.

Dr Rory Ridley-Duff, Sheffield Business School 10:28, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

The amount of weight to give to views is not calculated based on opinion polls of the general population. There is no academic controversy about the theories you discuss, for the reasons given by RxS above. Hut 8.5 11:40, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

September 11 folklore is not the subject matter of this article. Peter Grey (talk) 14:34, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Indeed, public opinion is only a measure of what is a majority or minority opinion - this is an issue in Wikipedia guidelines if we can to include 'substantial minority' points of view. If we turn to academic opinion, then the presence and size of the Scholars for 9/11 Truth network must be taken into account alongside the size and scale of the Engineers for 9/11 Truth network. I'm not aware of any academic network in support of the 'official' story, but I would be delighted to learn of one because I've search for one to provide balancing opinions on my courses. There are occasional academic articles refered to in various documentaries. What I do consistently detect, however, is an unstated coalition of government and media interests (within NIST, FEMA, the court system, Fox News, New Corporation sources) who are struggling to maintain control over the 'truth' of events surrounding September 11. People allied to these interests are in a constant battle with academics and professional groups who question their right to control determination of 'truth' regarding these events. This 'battle' (if that is the right word) extent to every sphere, including Wikipedia. As an academic, I naturally want to eliminate censorship of views so they can be debated properly in a sober and systematic way. Dr Rory Ridley-Duff, Sheffield Business School 20:01, 2 September 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Roryridleyduff (talk • contribs)

Hmmm. No, I don't think an organization calling themselves "Scholars for 9/11 Truth" needs to be taken into account as an scholarly source without further verification. Perhaps some of them are scholars, perhaps not. There is still at most one scholarly paper in a real peer-reviewed journal (that is, not one where the "peers" are also Truthers, or one where the editorial policy denies the validity of peer review) which questions the NIST findings. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 20:46, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

I would like to again state that on Wikipedia, it doesn't matter if you 'have a PhD in a business related area (organisation cultures / governance practices)' or you are some random monkey pounding his fists into a keyboard. Please cease to fill your statements with needless fluff. Not only does it make what you are trying to say incredibly hard to derive, but it it makes you come across as a fool, especially when you can't even be bothered to sign your posts or spell words like 'organisation' and 'refered' correctly. I'll be as brief as I possibly can: You're arguments are recycled, you have yet to provide a single reliable source outside of polls, and you still refuse to go read these talk page archives to see that not only have other people presented the same flawed POV argument before, but that it has been soundly rejected over and over again, as it will this time. The mountain of reliable sources against you is so staggering that I would not even dare to attempt to climb it. So please, stop wasting your time, my time, and every other editor who visits these article's time. We will not insert your POV, we will not dance around the issue, and we will not tolerate any more mindless dribble. Do you understand? Or am we in store for another round of fluff filled nonsense? --Tarage (talk) 23:13, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Comment: "Organisation" is correctly spelled according to British English. "Refered" may not be, but then neither is your "You're", Tarage. From this I hope you will gather that it is always better to concentrate on the content of an editor's contributions, rather than the form or making comments that risk showing one's own ignorance. And since your arguments are sound, why not adopt a more collegial tone, to go along with them? --Slp1 (talk) 00:06, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Because I have seen far too many editors come in here and completely disregard all of the work put in to maintaining and balancing this article, and push their own POV. Call me ignorant, call me rude, but I have had enough of editors who do not even show good faith by ignoring the archives, ignoring the notices, ignoring the consensus, and even ignoring the Wikipedia standards and practices. I refuse to tolerate such blatant disregard of everything we hold dear. If someone has an issue with me, they are welcome to call me a 'meanie' on my talk page. Roryridleyduff is nothing more than a blowhard. He talks a lot, he says a lot, but in the end, his words mean nothing. He isn't a new editor, he isn't confused, he simply isn't willing to show the rest of us the proper respect, so I will not show him said respect either. That is my stance. --Tarage (talk) 04:50, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

WP:UNDUE says: in determining proper weight, we consider a viewpoint's prevalence in reliable sources. Therefore opinion polls are irrelevant. The reason for this should be obvious - there are plenty of polls out there in which large numbers of Americans express support for discredited notions such as geocentricism or astrology. More than 40% of Americans believe in creationism, but this idea is not given serious consideration in science articles here because it has no scientific support. If Wikipedia gave weight to all these ideas it would rapidly become a laughing stock. Proposing a conspiracy of reliable sources to deny recognition to certain opinions is not going to help you either. Hut 8.5 12:09, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Protection

Can an admin please return the page to semi-protected? A bot got rid of it, and you're seeing the results first hand.

I attempted to do it myself but... well... you can see my failure first hand as well. --Tarage (talk) 22:47, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

You want WP:RFPP. Hut 8.5 08:57, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Alright, I got it protected for a year... though I'd love to have it longer... --Tarage (talk) 22:19, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

This article should remain unprotected until the bias in the writing has been addressed by its Wikipedia editors. It is against the interests of public knowledge and education if people with no credible expertise in knowledge creation continue to censor changes (and challenges) to their article by those that do have such expertise.

Dr Rory Ridley-Duff, Sheffield Business School 10:33, 1 September 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Roryridleyduff (talk • contribs)

I'm now positive you are completely off your rocker, or you have absolutely no idea how Wikipedia works. Just go away. --Tarage (talk) 06:34, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

"Creating" knowledge is WP:NOT what an encyclopaedia is for. Peter Grey (talk) 22:24, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

In that case, then all this "official" nonsense about planes causing the destruction of the three buildings is not encyclopaedic! It's not like anything on this page outside of the inadequate conspiracy link coverage to the true story at 9-11 conspiracy theories is actually factual. The vast majority of this article is patent nonsense. But majority rules on wikipedia. I'll just go away now. Lostinlodos (talk) 01:26, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

I applaud your decision to go away. Way to be the bigger (wo)man! Ice Cold Beer (talk) 01:49, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Don't let the door hit you on the way out. --Tarage (talk) 02:44, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Proposal for introducing a new term

In the interest of NPOV, I believe we should refer to the mainstream theory with regard to the September 11th Attacks as the "official conspiracy theory". This is completely accurate, the theory is official and it proposes that a conspiracy (Al-Queda) executed the attacks. People attempt to use the term 'conspiracy theory' to marginalize alternative arguments, but the term can also be applied to the mainstream theory. The majority of people believe in the official conspiracy theory, but it is still a POV to describe it in one way while describing alternative views in another way, using a term with a negative connotation. Adding the term 'Official' shows that the government backs this particular conspiracy theory, so it adds information while using the same term to neutrally describe different views, without taking the POV that one theory is 'true'. Just because the government and mainstream media choose to be biased on this issue doesn't mean Wikipedia should. Mr. Quickling (talk) 03:02, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Seems pretty awkward, and no reliable sources use the term. This has been talked about multiple times and would be WP:OR to use the term. RxS (talk) 05:32, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Whilst the "alternative views" you mention are usually described as "conspiracy theories" the same is not the case for the mainstream view (indeed about the only people who use this term are those promoting "alternative views"). In addition the mainstream view doesn't necessarily meet the definition of "conspiracy theory". Hut 8.5 09:42, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

I find it amusing that you are upset with us using reliable sources, when this is in fact how Wikipedia runs. I suggest you go read up more before proposing more biased changes. That's right, it would actually BE biased to call it an "official conspiracy theory", rather than the other way around. Then again you would know this if you read the talk archives. So all around, go read more. --Tarage (talk) 01:46, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

There is nothing 'official' about the mainstream account, and no-one would care if there were. Peter Grey (talk) 04:18, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Why can't I edit this article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.54.125.181 (talk) 20:38, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Because it's (as far as I know, permanently) semi-protected. Only registered editors can alter it. This measure was enacted to stem the flow of vandalism and the insertion of baseless conspiracy cruft into the article without discussion - most of it has already been addressed, but there are always newcomers who are either unaware or willfully ignorant of previous discussions. »S0CO^{(talk|contribs)} 04:28, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

How do you becoem a registered editor? 12.54.125.181 (talk) 17:23, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Go to Special:CreateAccount (or click "log in / create account" at the top right). If you want to edit semiprotected pages like this one, your account needs to have been registered for four days and have ten edits. If there's a specific edit you want to make to this page you can just post it here, and if it's appropriate someone will make the edit for you. Hut 8.5 19:31, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Thank you very much! 12.54.125.181 (talk) 21:32, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

{{Muslims and controversies}} template

We wouldn't write in the text of the article that 9/11 would be related to the persecution of homosexuals in Iran or to the indignation and outrage in Islamic countries about pictures that ridiculed Muhammed. So we shouldn't have a template in the article that creates exactly this impression. A smaller template, and one that is focused on terrorism, not on "controversies", would be acceptable. If we want to have links to Islam in general, we would need a general template, not a "controversies" template that gives a biased perspective on the topic.  Cs32en  00:59, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Khalid Sheik Mohammed

There is no evidence that KSM was anything more than a minor recruiter for the 911 attack. For a man to "mastermind" a massive mission that defeated the entire US fighter jet coverage and all intelligence agencies, there has to be some evidence that he drew up the aerial tactical plan while providing logistical and financial support to 19 separate individuals who entered the US without being detected. Without the use of a legal proceeding, this entire article is nothing more than fancy hearsay from third hand sources that were never cross-examined. In this so-called confession, it has been determined that KSM, a man with no aviation or tactical planning history, was brutally tortured while submitting this "testimony." None of his testimony or confessions would hold up in traffic court but wikipedia has determined that he was the mastermind. Msy2fla (talk) 16:39, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Even if what you say is true (and I don't think it is), we couldn't use it for editing the article unless some reliable source agreed with you. I don't recall any such source. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 17:01, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps you are tipping your "right" hand when you italicize the word "is"? This article quotes an Al Jazeera interview as proof that KSM was the “mastermind.” Just because a nut wants to take credit for the greatest attack against America, doesn’t deem him guilty of anything. No one has produced evidence of his capabilities as a tactical planner, as a logistical genius or an aviation expert which were all required to pull off the attack. The al Jazeera reporter was certainly not qualified to judge his capabilities or cross-examine his claim. Again, in the biggest criminal act against America, we see a media conviction while KSM sits 100 miles from the US border, recovering from 183 trips to the waterboard. The solution is bringing KSM to trial in the US so he can “confess” to a judge or jury but in order for his “confession” to stand, he must provide the volumes of missing information to explain his enormous victory over every element of US national security. This was a criminal act perpetrated on US soil. Usually, the US will charge then prosecute such individuals. Msy2fla (talk) 17:29, 9 September 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Msy2fla (talk • contribs) 17:27, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Reliable Sources please. This is not a forum. --Tarage (talk) 22:36, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

This article on KSM presents the false impression that he has been convicted. I suggest the following addition in order to present a more balanced and truthful account:

Several questions remain in regard to Khalid Sheikh Mohammed’s role in the 911 plot. He has not been afforded a criminal trial and therefore has not been convicted of any crimes against the United States. The 911 Commission’s final report stated that KSM admitted that he lied in a interview with Al Jazeera reporter Yosri Fouda, that a post-capture claim “may be pure bravado” and that “KSM has provided inconsistent information” about an alleged conversation with Osama bin Laden, who has not been charged with involvement in the 9/11 plot.

While being held by US intelligence agents at Guantanamo Bay Cuba, it has been widely reported that KSM was a victim of a prolonged series of severe torture and was waterboarded at least 183 times. During this incarceration, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed reportedly confessed to his interrogators that he was responsible for the 911 plot “from A to Z” and to 31 other terrorist plots around the world. Although the 911 Commission raised concerns about KSM’s credibility, they nonetheless decided to base the majority of the 9/11 plot on his unverified statements given under duress. The Commission published the following disclaimer that preceded statements attributed to KSM:

“Chapters 5 and 7 rely heavily on information obtained from captured al-Qaeda members. . . . Assessing the truth of statements by these witnesses . . . is challenging. Our access to them has been limited to the review of intelligence reports based on communications received from the locations where the actual interrogations take place. We submitted questions for use in the interrogations, but had no control over whether, when, or how questions of particular interest would be asked. Nor were we allowed to talk to the interrogators so that we could better judge the credibility of the detainees and clarify ambiguities in the reporting. We were told that our requests might disrupt the sensitive interrogation process.“

The 911 Commission investigation has been criticized by its two co-chairmen Thomas Kean and Lee Hamilton in a co-authored book entitled “Without Precedent: The Inside Story of the 9/11 Commission”. ISBN 9780307276636 In the book, Kean and Hamilton write that the 9/11 Commission was so frustrated that they considered a separate investigation into possible obstruction of justice by the Pentagon and FAA officials. Both men claimed that the 911 Commission was “designed to fail.”

The Joint Inquiry into Intelligence Community Activities before and after the Terrorist Attacks of September 11, 2001 also raised doubts to claims by some U.S. intelligence agents that KSM was the mastermind of the attacks: “Neither the CIA or FBI has been able to confirm that KSM traveled to the U.S. or that he sent recruits to the U.S. prior to 9/11.” These suspects were affiliated with the Saudi Arabian government and there was no mention of KSM being in contact with Omar al-Bayoumi who was determined to be aiding at least three of the 9/11 hijackers. Mr. al-Bayoumi, an employee of the Saudi Aviation Ministry, denied knowing KSM. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.52.115.178 (talk) 15:23, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Did anyone notice anything weird about the date 9/11 and the caller helpline 9-1-1 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Starpixie456 (talk • contribs) 21:01, 11 September 2009 (UTC)