Talk:Leonard Bernstein

Dates of collaboration with the Vienna Philharmonic

Bernstein's recording of Mahler's Song of the Earth with the Vienna Philharmonic was made in 1966 so the assertion that he began conducting them in 1970 is mistaken. Maybe this refers to concerts as opposed to studio work but if such is the case then it should be made unambiguous. Does anyone have more information? --S.Camus (talk) 16:30, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Ode to Joy and the Berlin Wall

Helga, I'm very happy you found that item about Ode to Joy and the Berlin Wall. I've always loved that tune, from when I was a little boy. --Ed Poor

Not 'chicester' but 'chichester'

Cheers, Marco Lazzeri

POV material

Comments such as these are blatant POV and cannot be included:

As an interpreter, Bernstein was like "the little girl with the little curl": When he was good, he was untouchable - too many of his recordings to name are still considered the definitive interpretations of the works in question. When he was bad - most commonly in works he had to conduct as any world-famous conductor with a recording contract must - he could be dreadful in his interpretations, if he personally disliked the piece. This pattern showed up in many aspects of his life.

It is not the job of Wikipedia to say when Bernstein is "good" or "bad". Such judgments can only be reported if made my repected critics or other third parties. See WP:NPOV

Grover cleveland 02:58, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

I think that section has already been removed. I couldn't find it. AlbertSM 00:37, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Sbpat21's edit

• "It is noted that Samuel Byck, would-be assassin of Richard Milhous Nixon sent several recorded audio tapes to him detailing various events and monologues."

Does anyone have a reference for this? Even if they do, I'm not sure it's that important to the article. I'll remove the sentence if not cited in the next few days. David Underdown 08:17, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

There are about 13,000 refs you can find by googling "Leonard Bernstein" "Samuel Byck". You could also cite Assassins (musical). - Nunh-huh 09:44, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Ome good reference is the 2004 film The Assassination of Richard Nixon, starring Sean Penn. AlbertSM 00:38, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Even referenced, this is something notable about Samuel Byck, not about Bernstein. I'm going to remove it. It might be more appropriate with some description of Bernstein's reaction to the tapes - if he just threw them out without listening, then it is completely irrelevant.

It's trivia, it's irrelevant and unencyclopedic. Also, references should be given by whoever added the info (in this case Sbpat21). Remember that any info not sourced can be challenged and removed by any editor.--Karljoos (talk) 18:00, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Bernstein's homosexuality is well documented

Is no one going to write about his most notorious aspect? - Ahmad Azrai

Hopefully someone who recognizes it's not "his most notorious aspect"". - Outerlimits 07:52, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

I have inserted a brief account of his family life, with references to his homosexuality. His sexual life was "notorious" only in the sense of being a frequent subject of gossip at the time. Unfortunately, many today still consider same-sex relationships shameful (see many of Wiki's articles on other contemporary figures in Classical music, esp. the Talk Page on Vladimir Horowitz). 66.108.4.183 19:54, 28 May 2006 (UTC) Allen Roth

Accept that this musical genius was super gay. What's with the removing of any and all trace of his super homosexuality? As a proud super gay person, I'm sad to know that there are Wikipedia users out there that are uncomfortable with the truth: that he was super gay. C'mon people, his bio is part of the WikiProject GLBT Studies for a reason. It's well documented that he was gay and that it was a major part of who he was; as well as the fact that he ALSO adored his wife and kids. This is NOT disputed.

If you have a POV that being gay is somehow wrong, that's your right, but it's not your right to obscure the facts. If this fact is not left in, I will petition for editing protection. ---Kaihoku 06:37, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

His homosexuality has nothing to do with his greatness as a conductor or composer. I don't think this aspect should be overly emphasized, though, or it might make the article seem voyeuristic.AlbertSM 01:41, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I quite agree with this position. WP is a general-interest encyclopedia, and Bernstein is known to the public at large as a great musician, not as a great gay guy. Sure, it's a part of who he was, but it is not the reason for his celebrity. --Wspencer11 (talk to me...) 14:05, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

When I was in New York, I recall hearing that Bernstein preferred young black boys, and it was getting around that that is what he was doing, and that the board of the New York Philharmonic told him he had to do something, change his behaviour - whatever - because it was going to affect the orchestra's reputation and that if the situation did not change, that they would not be able to keep him. Is there any documentation of this? Is this why Bernstein left the New York Philharmonic? This story was well-known in New York. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.129.139.97 (talk) 09:08, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

I believe you're confusing Bernstein with another eminent conductor based in New York, about whom this exact same story has circulated for years. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.234.32.85 (talk) 02:11, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I have removed the reference to Thomas Hampson being one of his rumored lovers because I thought it much too gossipy. This is an encyclopedia biography, not a page out of the National Enquirer. AlbertSM (talk) 18:58, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Here's an interesting quote, the veracity of which I cannot vouch for: "Most people do think of me as just another pinko faggot, a bleeding heart, a do-gooder ... but that's what I am". -- JackofOz (talk) 07:13, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

All right, maybe it is well documented but is it relevant enough to be in an article? Cheers --Karljoos (talk) 15:37, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Well said. When I was growing up, Leonard Bernstein was the most famous conductor in the world, and nobody ever referred to his sexual orientation or seemed to care about it one way or the other. He became famous, not because of his bisexuality, but because of his incredible ability to explain music to people and for his greatness as a conductor. I may get raked over the coals for saying this, but those who want to emphasize his sexual orientation, are, IMHO, pushing their own agenda of making homosexuality more visible to the public (hey, isn't it great; even somebody as accepted and admired as Bernstein was gay!). They are not interested in exploring what makes a musician outstanding. AlbertSM (talk) 01:10, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Koussevitzky

It would also be nice to see some mention of LB's connection with Koussevitzky; I will add this if I have time and nobody else does so. Wspencer11 13:48, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Done. -- ßottesiηi ^(talk) 00:36, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Composer section

Is Mitropoulos really that well-known as a composer? Plenty of conductors have written music but very rarely nowadays are they known as both conductors and composers; John Adams is a notable exception. I find it hard to believe that Lorin Maazel or Wilhelm Furtwängler or any of the others will be remembered for their compositions in any way. Though I didn't remove DM the first time I don't think he should have been reinstated. --Wspencer11 (talk to me...) 15:22, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Where is it??

There isn't any section about Bernstein as a composer. In the classical world, his works are held in high esteem, especially for the way they combine contemporary writing with popular music (such as twelve-tone techniques in "West Side Story"), similar to Gershwin. His symphonies and other works are still widely performed today. (Chichester Psalms, Divertimento, as well as musicals and stage works) He IS one of the rare composer-conductors who still are famous for both. Could somebody write such a paragraph? -- megA 12:39, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Radical chic

I do not believe that the external link to a site concerning the Tom Wolfe book is, in and of itself, a sufficient reference to this aspect of Mr. Bernstein's significance in the cultural history of the U.S. He was an absolute icon of "radical chic." I believe that this matter deserves a mention in the body of the article. 66.90.226.115 17:11, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Bernstein hated identification with "radical chic". In a "60 Minutes" interview, Mike Wallace again brought up the subject of that infamous "Black Panther" party, and Bernstein showed exasperation. I'd just as soon they left it alone; it demeans him.AlbertSM 20:54, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Lives are messy and they are what they are. The fact that Bernstein's cultural significance as the defining icon of "radical chic" might be seen as "demeaning" does not justify its exclusion here, however much he is admired for his music. In fact, it is his musical brilliance that elevates him to such a position of cultural significance that peripheral aspects of his life are of broad interest. The fact that Bernstein, himself, may have hated -- and perhaps wished to erase -- this piece of his story is no reason for honest biography to cooperate. 74.242.235.111 (talk) 17:46, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Bernstein and the Black Panthers

ASME's Top 40 Magazine Covers of the Last 40 Years (October 17, 2005) lists one cover that hits Bernstein's involvement --and particularly its social significance-- right on the head (see #35). I think it should have some inclusion beyond a link at the very bottom. --Bobak (talk) 19:26, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

The whole section is too long, and should be edited down to a couple of sentences and put in some sort of perspective. Right now it just sounds like an advertisement for Tom Wolfe and his book, in my opinion, and has little connection or relevance to the rest of the article. Softlavender (talk) 08:15, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Conductors he influenced?

I am not sure that the latest addition to the article is really useful. He has undoubtedly influenced many conductors, great and small. Is it helpful to note only three of them at the expense of all the others? --Wspencer11 (talk to me...) 02:09, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Infobox

Just a note to say that I have taken the musical artist's infobox away and these are no longer being used for composers. Regards. --Kleinzach 14:25, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Smear

Wikipedia Gay Lobby has a long, detailed entry about sexual orientation. You would think that such innuendo is of major importance. Of course, it is important to those immature, juvenile, adolescent people who think that such behavior is praiseworthy in an adult. Even if Bernstein had passed through the immature phase of homosexuality, he eventually matured into a life of being husband and father to several decent children. It would be praiseworthy if those children would sue for defamation. Lestrade 16:32, 25 October 2007 (UTC)Lestrade

You've got the chronology wrong. First he was a husband and family father, then he enventually matured to living openly gay from the 70s onward to his very end. AFAIK his children never had problems with that. But you got a point: the article should really mainly focus on LB the musician, as that is what he is remembered for. --FordPrefect42 22:01, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I have no problem with Bernstein's actual and verifiable sexual orientation, whether straight, bi, or gay; however for the record I remember when the tell-all unauthorized biography came out, Bernstein (or the press) said his children wouldn't let him read it because of the gay allegations, and the implication was that they were trumped-up falsehoods. That's what was reported in the press (NY Times, if I recall correctly) at that time, in any case. For what it's worth. I'm assuming that in the 2000s, whatever his real sexual orientation was can be more openly discussed, however — as long as it is verifiable. Softlavender (talk) 13:13, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Award Section Incorrect

Actually, Bernstein did not win a Tony Award for Best Musical. West Side Story lost the Tony Award that year to The Music Man. Shame. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.232.55.254 (talk) 05:24, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

West Side Story

Bizarre that the entry doesn't talk about West Side Story except in passing. It might not be "serious" music, but I suggest it's what Bernstein will be remembered for. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.152.249.11 (talk) 15:54, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Not only is the mention of West Side Story only a passing reference, there is no substantial section on Bernstein as a composer. I think he would have been horrified. He took his sabbatical from the New York Philharmonic to return to composition, and his contributions to the American symphony are substantial and varied (in the three symphonies). West Side Story and Candide are crucial to the history of musical theater, and the article doesn't even mention his substantial contribution to film scores (i.e. On the Waterfront). Further, the article should say something about the difficult of bridging these fields - as in taking the helm of the New York Philharmonic after his stint on Broadway with West Side Story. Musicsignifica (talk) 13:11, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Those of you who feel strongly thus should be the ones adding to the article to that effect. Softlavender (talk) 00:28, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

50th Birthday Disaster

Bernstein will certainly qualify for a special category: celebrities who experienced a horrible fiftieth birthday. To introduce this topic one might mention two predecessors:

1. Charlie Chaplin was the first modern celebrity to groom his mustache in such a way that his face resembled an automobile. This and many other factors resulted in the historic fact that at one time Chaplin was arguably the most famous man in the world. But by the time of his fiftieth birthday, April 16, 1939, another man with a face like an automobile, the famous and beloved A. Hitler, was having an even more famous 50th birthday than Chaplin's. Whether this stung Chaplin or not is an interesting speculation, but he responded with one of the most famous of his works, the feature film "The Great Dictator". (To see a car which seems to have designed with Hitler's face in mind, try driving on the Autobahn with an old fashioned VW beetle ahead of you-- two little windows for eyes, the round VW emblem for nose, and the two-line postage-stamp license plate for guess what. But I digress.)

2. Benjamin Britten conceivably had the most gruesome fiftieth birthday of all-- November 22, 1963. Maybe worth looking up any accounts of how he and his friends responded when the news began arriving-- around 1800 hours GMT? Not to ignore the fact that Britten, like his friend Dmitri D. Shostakovitch, loved Mussorgsky and Mahler and was obsessed with death. (Even in the St. Nicholas cantata boys are turned into pickles. Not to mention Peter Grimes and Death in Venice...)

In l968 Bernstein entered politics to an unprecedented degree, conducted the Adagietto in memory of Robert F. Kennedy, and supported a Presidential candidate, Eugene McCarthy. It would be interesting to know of any key quotes or accounts of Bernstein's personal reactions to events in August 1968. I have seen a fifty-page booklet which was printed up for his 50th birthday. Interestingly it shows him several times with a cigaret in hand, even in the presence of small children (I'm sure today he'd act differently; it's emblematic of the era involved). See article for ideas about his eventual fate -- emphysema.Tokerdesigner (talk) 00:19, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

"Mass" all caps or not?

Minor point, but should his Mass be listed as MASS? The Wiki article on it has it in all caps, as does the official literature on it (see External Links on that article's page). Softlavender (talk) 00:26, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Split Career Section

The Career section is too large. Could it be split into subsections? DavidRF (talk) 18:58, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, it was an interminable rambly mess. It's still a rambly mess, but I put date brackets in the appropriate places to break it up a little. Someone could probably put sub-subheadings in the longer sections of it, or on events that were truly noteworthy. Softlavender (talk) 08:13, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

What's up with this hidden, non-functioning "Media" section?

I removed it, since it was cloaked anyway, and doesn't work even when uncloaked. Here it is: Bernstein media. Do with it what you will. Softlavender (talk) 04:07, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Composer project review

I've reviewed this article as part of the Composers project review of its B-class articles. The article is clearly B-class, but is weak on content related to his composing. My full comments are on the comments page; questions and comments can be left here or on my talk page. Magic♪piano 17:29, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Agreed completely. A main section called "Compositions" should be added under the section called "Influence as a conductor," and this should contain rudimentary information about the various genres he composed in, plus mentions or descriptions of (some of) the major works in each, as well as a little bit about his development as a composer. If the section is simply started, I'm sure it can grow to include all the elements you have noted are needed. Since I myself am not well-versed on Bernstein's compositions, I'll let someone else do the honors of starting the section. Even if it's only a paragraph or two, that's better than nothing. Thanks in advance. Softlavender (talk) 09:12, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Beethoven's Symphony no. 7

I seem to recall that this was not only his last piece conducted, but also his first. Can anyone confirm? Whitereflection (talk) 08:32, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

"Formidable Piano Technique?"

Was he actually considered to be that hot on the ivories? Had a habit of writing absolutely unplayable runs, and getting in a strop when more technically gifted pianists pointed out they were unplayable, then he would refuse to show them how it should be done(as he couldn't play them himself), and pass his lack of dexterity off as a hissy fit a la 'I am a musical genius surrounded by incompetents' mode. Any anecdotes from former orchestral players out there who recall the 'Act'?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.77.27.115 (talk) 17:41, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

I've posted a , although I'd prefer the claim actually be deleted. He wasn't exactly Barenboim; never performed; and so even if it is by chance true, it's very much a "So what?" (thousands of conductors and composers can play the piano well), and does NOT belong in the lead paragraph. Softlavender (talk) 19:09, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

• Update: verified and cited. Softlavender (talk) 07:56, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Ok, verified. Now: is it relevant? --Karljoos (talk) 18:05, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm not a pianist, but I can assure you, he did perform. Do your research before you make a claim like that. For the Beethoven Bicentennial in 1970, he played and conducted Beethoven's 1st Piano Concerto in Vienna, and this performance has been released on DVD on a program entitled "Bernstein on Beethoven: A Celebration in Vienna". He also performed and conducted the "Rhapsody in Blue" for the U.S. Bicentennial.AlbertSM (talk) 18:53, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Formidable is a bit subjective, I think. I'd say Bernstein's technique was good, but he was no super-virtuoso like Horowitz. Now, even though it is sourced, it is very unencyclopedic and I think it should be removed. --Karljoos (talk) 15:59, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Why is the Table of Contents not showing up on this Talk page?

There's no Table of Contents showing up on the top of this Talk page. Can someone fix this bug? Thanks. Softlavender (talk) 17:05, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Fundraiser event given unreasonable prominence

As the last sentence in the section says, "Bernstein was reportedly exasperated by the interest in this event." This event is written as an anecdote of a single event and is given unjustified prominence with a major (inflated) head and subhead. If any facts from this single event are used, they should be inserted into a section already mentioning some related "personal life" facts. As it was, the section surrounded by his professional life's details, looked somewhat ridiculous.

==Sociopolitical involvement==

===Black Panther fundraiser===

In Tom Wolfe's book Radical Chic & Mau-Mauing the Flak Catchers, the first piece is set in Bernstein's duplex on Park Avenue in Manhattan. Bernstein assembled many of his wealthy socialite friends to meet with representatives of the controversial Black Panthers and discuss ways to help their cause. The party was a typical affair for Bernstein, a longtime Democrat, who was known for hosting civil rights leaders at such parties.

The Bernsteins could not be seen with their usual black butler and maid, so they hired white South Americans to serve the party. Bernstein's elite friends and guests (including Oscar-nominated director Otto Preminger and television reporter Barbara Walters) are labeled the "radical chic", as Wolfe characterizes them as pursuing radical ends for social reasons, partially because organizations like the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People had become too mainstream. Wolfe's criticism is implicitly of the general phenomenon of white guilt and armchair agitation becoming facets of high fashion.

New York magazine featured the incident, in an issue subsequently deemed by the ASME's one of the "Top 40 Magazine Covers of the Last 40 Years." In a 60 Minutes interview with Mike Wallace, Bernstein was reportedly exasperated by the interest in this event.

(unsigned comment above by User:Wikiwatcher1)

I have to agree -- the whole section was silly and irrelevant and overly prominent. I'm personally glad it's gone. Softlavender (talk) 13:02, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Politics

This article should include LB's political views. He had an extensive file in the FBI, i believe.Lerdna (talk) 23:50, 4 September 2009 (UTC)LerdnaLerdna (talk) 23:50, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

I believe there's a new book coming out about his politics, actually. Here is some discussion by the author, although, of course, it would be better to reference the book itself. A small section about his politics might be a good idea, anyway. His interaction with the blacklist and Hoover seem worth at least some mention. --Aquillion (talk) 10:45, 17 October 2009 (UTC)