Talk:Israeli apartheid

The main discussion area for this series of articles was at: WP:APARTHEID

Jewish only settlements

In the lead it says there are Jewish only settlements. While I'm pretty sure very few israeli arabs live in these settlements what is the basis for this statement? Is there any source confirming that there is some sort of law prohibiting Israeli arabs to live there or similar? U don't mean Israeli only settlements? Fipplet 01:21, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Apartheid? Really?

Has anyone who's actually been to Israel-Palestine said this? How in the heck is it apartheid? Arabs have every right that could possibly be afforded to them under law - there are no separate schools, no language restrictions, no restrictions on political representation, no religious restrictions. I mean, a real-life example of Apartheid would be the forbidding on non-Muslims in certain areas of Saudi Arabia, surely? Or, non-Muslims not being allowed to visit the al-Aqsa Mosque most of the time. Or the fact that Kurds in Turkey aren't allowed to pray in their own language, or broadcast as they want in their own language, or even speak their own language in government institutions. This article reflects very poorly on Wikipedia - makes it look like a mere conduit for extremist, anti-zionist and anti-semitic propaganda. REmmet1984 (talk) 06:46, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Uri Davis? Come on people. REmmet1984 (talk) 06:48, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

I mostly agree with but please read WP:NOTFORUM also we need WP:RS to improve the article.--Shrike (talk) 07:42, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes, Michael Ben-Yair, attorney-general of Israel, said it in his The war's seventh day article. I'm just saying. I make no comment on the merit of the view. Sean.hoyland - talk 08:42, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Of course you are. He's talking about the Occupied Territories, not "Israel". It's your logically infantile extrapolation that asserts the extreme POV view that "Israel" is an "apartheid state". REmmet1984 (talk) 11:43, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

As I said, I make no comment on the merit of the view. I genuinely don't have a view about it because I know nothing about the formal definitions of apartheid. I was simply answering your question. It's always better to respond in a way here that is appropriate to the information that is actually contained in what people write rather than respond based on assumptions about them or what they meant. It easy to be wrong. Please don't respond like this to anyone else. If you are unclear about what someone meant, simply ask them to clarify. Thanks. Sean.hoyland - talk 11:54, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Oh no, you make no comment, and yet here you are, commenting.... REmmet1984 (talk) 12:10, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

I said "I make no comment on the merit of the view" and I haven't. It's consistent. Wikipedia isn't a place to argue with people for the sake of it or misrepresent what they have said. It's pointless and it's inconsistent with WP:TALK. You asked a question so I provided an instance of someone "who's actually been to Israel-Palestine" who said this in a reliable source. Wikipedia is just an encyclopedia so if you have positive contributions to make based on the project's policies and guidelines, go ahead. Sean.hoyland - talk 12:28, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

No he didn't say that Israel was an apartheid state - he said there was a system of apartheid in the Occupied Territories. So, seeing as you claim to have no opinion on "the merit of the view", then you should have no problem in making the requisite changes to reflect what the source says, right? Why am I not optimistic that you will..... REmmet1984 (talk) 15:01, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

• Discussion on this is a waste of time, we're obviously dealing with a not-new editor returning to be pointy and disruptive. Whose it is is anyone's guess, but if someone has an insight into an identity, head to WP:SPI and let's be done with this. Tarc (talk) 16:11, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

This is one of the best pages to watchlist for sock spotting. I would expect this to be someone like Historicist. Sean.hoyland - talk 16:20, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

I suspect it's actually Ledenierhomme, but there isn't yet enough to be certain. RolandR (talk) 16:43, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

That's possible too. Ledenierhomme is currently active on Newroz Telecom hosted dynamic IPs in the 109.127.64.0 - 109.127.127.255 range and has been for several days now. It's trivial for User:Tnxman307 to shut them down with small range blocks. Tnxman307 is familiar with Ledenierhomme's MO. I just haven't got around to asking. Sean.hoyland - talk 16:52, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Naturally. Faced with someone pointing out a severe problem with bias, the gang all gets together to accuse the new user of being a sockpuppet. Nevermind how systemic bias reflects on Wikipedia - just try and squash the dissenting voice before your precious attack articles are altered. Activist Wiki MO 101. REmmet1984 (talk) 09:09, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

How do you know its not a new editor?--Shrike (talk) 09:48, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

I don't. There isn't enough data to draw any reliable conclusions but his edits aren't consistent with those I normally see from a new user. Here are some examples.

• The first edit for example is maked as minor and includes a piped link.
• The 5th edit introduces a section heading and utilizes the Main template.
• The 8th edit copies content either from Islam and antisemitism or the Persecution of Jews article to the Pogrom article. New editors don't do that kind of structural editing
• The 11th edit removes content on the basis of "non-notable sources", an unusual notion for inexperienced editors.
• He is already particpating in an AfD

When asked, the usual response is that they have edited previously as an IP or they provide some kind of implausible or evasive response. Sockpuppets in this topic area always lie by the way, always, without exception and there are sockpuppets operating in the topic area everyday. They are very often aggressive in their POV pushing and respond in completely inappropriate and dysfunctional ways to comments. They usually exhibit out-group homogeneity bias in the way they simplistically model other editors tending to group them into granfalloon-like "gangs" etc that they can conveniently label as biased, leftist, anti-Semitic, Arabist or whatever. They often personalize disputes and attack other editors. They usually model themselves as some kind of righteous soldier in an information war valiently confronting the evil cabal that controls Wikipedia spreading lies about Israel. They are a menace and that is usually why they got themselves blocked/banned by sensible, mature people who understand the purpose of Wikipedia and are willing to protect it. Sockpuppetry is the reason I have this page watchlisted. It's a magnet for sockpuppets as are several others. It is a place to gather information about their behavior and tells. I have near-zero interest in the topic. I've made precisely one edit to this article about a year ago to add the book Yiftachel, Oren (2006-06-27). Ethnocracy: land and identity politics in Israel/Palestine. University of Pennsylvania Press. ISBN 0812239. I'm not here to make this particular article better. Time will tell whether REmmet1984 is a sockpuppet or someone who wants to contribute positively. Sean.hoyland - talk 11:32, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

You have "near-zero interest in the topic" and yet your Contributions history shows thousands of edits - many of them pushing a very clear and specific agenda - on the topic of the Arab-Israeli conflict? Do you really expect anyone to believe that? You don't have a monopoly on Wikipedia. Deal with it. Nice use of granfalloon by the way. REmmet1984 (talk) 13:38, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

If you think I'm a sockpuppet, contact Admin. Really. REmmet1984 (talk) 13:42, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Already done. nableezy - 17:11, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Where? I don't see it... unless of course.... REmmet1984 (talk) 17:20, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Ive gotten tired of writing the same SPI every few weeks, so with you I have gone a different route. Lets just wait and see what happens. Pins and needles Im on. nableezy - 17:23, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

There it is folks. An admission as clear as day. The rumors are all true: the gang has grown so powerful, they don't even have to pretend to follow due process anymore. Thanks for being so honest Nableezy! REmmet1984 (talk) 17:32, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes, and the chair of the high committee for the gang of Nableezians has ordered that your comments be stricken as coming from the sock of a banned editor. Cheers. nableezy - 18:23, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

I suppose it would be rude of me not to respond to what you said. That was my lack of clarity. I meant I have near-zero interest in the "Israel and the apartheid analogy" topic. It makes no difference whether editor's believe it or not. The I-P topic area is like a holiday for me. Every quaint, unscientific statement about my so called "agenda" reminds me why I edit in this topic area and makes me carry on. Every insult is ineffectual and makes me smile. Every editor I encounter who won't or can't follow the rules reminds me why we have them and encourages me to impose them. If I see someone making a POV-pushing/policy non-compliant edit in an article in the topic area, you might see me stop what I'm doing editing outside the topic area in articles that actually interest me and return to the topic area to make a sequence of policy enforcement edits to ensure that there is always a net benefit to the project e.g. someone messes up 1 settlement article, I might edit 20 in a row. It's my version of the Dahiya doctrine. Editors like me will just carry on making edits based on our RS-based assessment of policy compliance and they will either stand or fall. The inevitable outcome over time will be that articles will comply with policy. Victory for policy compliance is assured one baby step at a time. That is the beauty of it. There's no rush. I'm sure you're right that some of my edits push an agenda. It won't be my agenda though. I don't have one unless trying to get things to comply with policy is an agenda. You should think rule-based cold-hearted automaton rather than activist. Things will make a lot more sense and you might come to accept that POV pushing, sockpuppetry, the insults and all of the other foolishness is counterproductive. You can then relax and edit articles about all sorts of other things. Sean.hoyland - talk 17:43, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

First sentence, and precise defenition of allegations

As I predicted above, the first attempt to alter the article to place it in line with what the sources - and reality - requires, was immediately reverted twice. "RolandR", please point me to where this was discussed "at length". Anti-Israel activists like yourself are at pains to point out that the West Bank is "occupied territory", so apportioning the "apartheid" policies to the State of Israel, is surely, by definition, a falsehood. REmmet1984 (talk) 16:04, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

There are several threads in the talk archive where this was discussed. Some sources claim that Israel is guilty of apartheid practices in the territories occupied in 1967, some claim that the state of Israel itself is based on apartheid, and some deny that Israel is guilty of any apartheid practices. All of these positions should be covered in the article, and it is not acceptable to remove any of them. I really don't understand your second point, but in any case, my own view on this is irrelevant. What matters is the views and statements of reliable sources. Some may indeed be incompatible with others, that is the nature of this argument; but that is no reason to exclude any of them. RolandR (talk) 16:50, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Please point me to such discussions. Also, please point out where "UN investigators" have referred to Israel proper, as being an apartheid state, as the first sentence now reads. Waiting.... REmmet1984 (talk) 16:57, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Let me simplify the second point for you: if the West Bank is not a part of Israel, and you charge that Apartheid is practiced in the West Bank, then how is Israel an apartheid state? Get it? REmmet1984 (talk) 16:59, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

That's right, why engage on Talk when you can just revert at will... REmmet1984 (talk) 17:34, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Saudi Arabia is an apartheid state

If people want to call Israel an apartheid state, then they might as well look at Saudi Arabia, which bans Jews and also discriminates against women. 198.151.130.37 (talk) 02:06, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

I agree, and the United Nations is an apartheid organization because it believes that it is illegal for Jews to live in their own homeland and wants to ethnically cleanse them from the so-called "West Bank." JudeaRemembered (talk) 01:28, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

If you can find published reliable sources that suggest that Saudi Arabia is an apartheid state, or that the UN is an apartheid organisation, then start an article on the subject (though we have Human rights in Saudi Arabia and Criticism of the United Nations articles already - the material should probably be added there). This article isn't about either Saudi Arabia or the UN though - and this talk page is for discussing improvements to the article, rather than a forum for soapboxing. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:37, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

This article would be improved by adding that the organizations and countries that falsely accuse Israel of apartheid are actually apartheid themselves. JudeaRemembered (talk) 01:39, 3 October 2011 (UTC)