Talk:Irish people

Archives

October 2005 – October 2006 October 2006 – October 2007 October 2007 – October 2008

NI and Free State

The opening sentence says: It is predominately religion, historical, and political differences that divide the two communities of (Irish nationalism and British unionism). Surely there are genetic differences, given that the Protestant community is (largely) descended from English and Scots, and the RC community is (largely) descended from Gaelic Irish? Mooretwin (talk) 12:28, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm guessing by Free State you are referring to the country of Ireland, or are you referring to something else? I also don't know what you mean by genetics. Absolutely everyone has different genes. Are you suggesting there's a racial difference between Unionists and Nationalists?; because that is completely wrong. Sure Gerry Adams is descended from some of the planters and there aer many orange order members with names Murphy and O'Something. So yes, the only difference between the people on this island is political.78.16.237.211 (talk) 12:46, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm referring to the section in the article called "Northern Ireland and Free State".

I may be using the wrong language, and I know everyone has different genes, but I am assuming that there are genetic similarities between individuals within population groups (e.g., to give an extreme example, presumably there are genetic similarities among Australian Aborigines). Otherwise, phrases such as "expanding the gene pool" would make no sense.

Anyway, the point is that the Protestants are largely descended from immigrants from England and Scotland and the RCs from the Gaelic Irish and, over the past four centuries, there has been minimal intermarriage between the two. The political difference of which you speak is, in large part, a consequence of this. Mooretwin (talk) 13:31, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Aren't the Scots largely descended from, or at least intermixed with, the Irish? Hohenloh ⁺ 13:08, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

I think that's a generalisation. As I understand it, the Highland and Lowland Scots were quite distinct for many centuries. I think the Scots came from Ulster, and eventually gave their name to what is now Scotland, but there were Picts and other tribes already there. I also think there was considerable immigration of Angles to Lowland Scotland. Mooretwin (talk) 13:31, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes you're right there. The Irish and the Scottish have a common Gaelic ancestry.78.16.178.176 (talk) 13:21, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Again, that is simplistic. The Highland Scots and Gaelic Irish presumably have common ancestry, but the Lowland Scots were not Gaelic. It was largely Lowland Scots who emigrated to Ulster. Mooretwin (talk) 13:35, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Gaelic is a language, one, like English or Scots, which was not the original language of anyone in the archipelago (most of the genes on these islands were present before ANY Indo-European language existed anywhere in the world, and Gaelic or it's predecessor(s) obviously came from continental Europe after that). It is perfectly feasible that Catholics in NI are genetically closer to Protestants in NI than to Gaelic speakers in Kerry, indeed I think it might even be likely. The problem with your argument in general is that it appears to assume that there is a genetic entity of "Gaelic Irish" (a language and nationality or ethnicity combination that does not reference genes) to which Ulster Protestants do not belong, but there is no evidence that this entity exists. It is perfectly possible that Catholics in NI even before the plantations had more genetic similarity with people in the (non Gaelic speaking) areas from which the Scottish planters came than they did with some peoples elsewhere on the island of Ireland. I don't consider it even unlikely, but if you posit the existence of a genetic category of Irish whereby everyone in it is genetically closer to every other in that category than they are to anyone on the island of Great Britain then I have serious doubts that such a category exists at the genetic level, or that it ever even existed at some point in the past. I could make similar comments about European / Asian Turks and the Bosporus. If you believe that this genetic categorisation exists then I'm afraid that it is up to you to demonstrate it's existence. Without that I'm going to have to say that your genetic category does not exist. It is a presumption, and one which has a fair likelihood to be wrong 93.97.247.10 (talk) 07:57, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

The operative phrase is "predominantly". Yes, nationalists and unionists correspond broadly to Gaelic and Anglic-Scots descent groups respectively, but the defining division is political (tied up chiefly in cultural and religious differences). After all, there is ethnic overlap between the two political groups - there are some unionists descended from Gaelic-Scots planters, just as across Ireland there are many "Old English" families such as the Burkes and Fitzgeralds who consider themselves Irish despite being of Anglo-Norman descent. So while there may not have been much intermarriage between Catholics and Protestants, there certainly was much intermarriage when both the Irish and Anglo-Irish were still Catholic, so race is not so much of an issue in terms of self-identity. --78.16.101.148 (talk) 19:31, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Your argument doesn't work, because the Ulster settlers were not the same as the Anglo-Irish. Mooretwin (talk) 11:53, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Maybe not, but it does indicate a portion of both groups (unionist/nationalist) as having a descent from a common Anglic genepool. (The first of the Old English may having been more Anglo-Norman than Anglo-Saxon, but they continued to intermarry with "New English" families born in England as well as the native Gaelic clans. If we are assuming that the lowland Scots settlers of Ulster were also descended from "Anglo-Saxon", then both groups will have some Anglic ancestry.)

But getting to the heart of the issue, if you were (for example) in a residential area in Belfast, you would work out which group claimed it not by looking for the "ethnic features" of the locals, but by looking at the murals on the sides of houses. Your point is accepted that the two groups have broadly different ethnic origins, but the defining difference is history rather than ethnicity. The messages conveyed by the murals make use of religious, historical and political references, rather than racial terminology. --194.125.126.178 (talk) 22:23, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

de Valera

Funny that the American born Eamon de Valera, born to a latin father, is included in the pictures of Irish people when so many actual Irish people are not.--Play Brian Moore (talk) 19:26, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

DO NOT REMOVE PICTURES ON INFOBOX

Many remarks that De Valera are not Irish at all, now I should revised all those errors and perfectly replaced correct images, so to any user, do not remove those.

What are you on about? Anyone can edit a Wikipedia article if they want to...Hohenloh ⁺ 10:10, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

maybe, but not to erase a good one. 41.249.58.236 (talk) 19:56, 5 December 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.251.17.46 (talk) 13:09, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Number of Irish people in the United Kingdom

It says in the info box there are 14 million people with Irish roots, and the source is a single BBC article about a report. On that article it says "But although many hold passionately to their Irish roots, more than half are probably exaggerating or even lying, say the authors of the report." Can a more accurate figure be found than a report whos own author says its 50% incorrect? BritishWatcher (talk) 00:14, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Recent edits

Flag of the Kingdom of Ireland

The red hand in the Flag of Ulster of the Uí Néill (O'Neill)

Brian Boru is considered as the national hero of Ireland.

File:Ulster Bank Daytime.jpg

Ulster Bank, a Northern Irish bank

Chucrch of St Nicholas

A number of recent edits, although in good faith, have led to the article becoming less accessible. The article has become cluttered with images that do not add to the article's context, and paragraphs have been unnecessarily split apart and in some cases lumped together en masse, making them less readable. A short list of things I have removed, reverted or fixed:

• Many of the images, which would be arguably suited to the article on Ireland, are not relevant to an article on Irish people:
  • The Flag of the President does not add to the article, especially as the coat of arms bearing the exact same image appears further up the article under the second "Irish people" infobox. It is also misplaced as the "Flag of the Kingdom of Ireland" under the Middle Ages; the Kingdom of Ireland was a Tudor invention.
  • The Flag of Ulster does not add anything. The Red Hand of Ulster does illustrate a prominent Gaelic family from Irish history, but a clearer depiction of that crest already appears further down.
  • The image of Brian Boru is misplaced, inaccurate and actually replaced a more suitable image. First of all, Boru was early medieval; the image has been added to the "Late Medieval / Tudor" section. Second, the picture itself is a romanticised Victorian portrait of Boru - hardly an accurate representation - which had previously been discussed and removed from this article. Thirdly, what it replaced was a drawing of gallowglasses by Albrecht Durer - a more accurate image of the Irish fighting classes, in the Tudor period, by a well-known contemporary artist!
  • Similar to the flags, a photograph of Ulster bank hardly depicts Irish people. (Bizarrely, it was inserted between a full stop and a footnote.) Surely there is a better picture to represent Northern Irish people.
  • Again, a photograph of a church is not directly relevant to Irish people (although from a cultural perspective, it might be relevant to mention that it was a Catholic church that is now Church of Ireland).
  • The picture of Cillian Murphy (removed, but not shown here) is a good attempt at showing an Irish celebrity/actor, but can we not get a picture that comes from a copyrighted film?

I have left the EU flag because it is free licence and I feel it adds something to the section on Europe. The Carrowmore tomb also stays because, aside from the fact that I like the picture, it is recognisably difficult to illustrate the Irish people 8000 years ago.

• Irish diaspora
  • Again, many paragraphs unnecessarily lumped together here, reducing the readability of the section. For example, It makes no sense to group Irish-Americans/Mexicans/South Americans together in a single unwieldy paragraph.
  • Why was the referenced statement that all US presidents since John F. Kennedy had some Irish descent removed? If it is disputed, it is up to the editor to provide references contradicting it. Wikipedia comes down to what the sources say, "not truth". The only reason provided was "the majoity of american presidents have [Ulster-] scottish blood", which does not seem to contradict the statement. I would also add that:
    • The Scots and Irish had close cultural and ancestral ties going back to the early Middle Ages, and
    • The children of any Scots who had settled in Ulster were born in Ireland, and and would qualify as Irish by the definitions used in this article.
      (Accordingly, their descendants would also qualify as part of the Irish diaspora.)
  • Lastly, why was the referenced section on Irish-Canadians removed entirely from this section?

• Summary: How my edits affect the recent edits, and the overall change to the article since this began.

On a side note, there have been so many anon edits and counter-edits to the People Infobox that I am genuinely confused as to the correct figures and how we are to present them. Can an established user come up with something definitive? --Grimhelm (talk) 16:13, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Exageration of population numbers?

Surely there is a bit of an exageration of the population numbers here? The numbers given in the info box add up to about 55 million, yet it says there are roughly 80 million Irish worldwide. Where did this figure come from? Isn't it a slight exageration? 84.67.5.68 (talk) 21:58, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Correction, they add up to approximately 60 million. However, it still seems ambitious to place the total population at 20 million more. For comparison, the English population worldwide is said to be 90 million, and the figures listed in their infobox add up to 85 million, so 5 million more seems fairly appropriate guess. However, adding 20 million extra seems a little dubious. 84.67.5.68 (talk) 22:01, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I added new images on infobox

I add some notable Irish people images on The infobox, any suggest ? Ecuadorian Stalker (talk) 11:21, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

How about you stop editing as you are banned, Historian19? O Fenian (talk) 11:25, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

who are you to do such accusation ? its very funny (your case is unique lol) Ecuadorian Stalker (talk) 12:05, 12 April 2009 (UTC)